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Remember the telephone game?

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Yes, we all do, but that’s not the whole story …

Some findings in the field of collaborative memory research have been counter intuitive. For one, collaboration can hurt memory. Some studies have compared the recall of items on lists by “collaborative groups,” or those who study together, and “nominal groups,” in which individuals work alone and the results are collated. The collaborative groups remembered more items than any single person would have done alone. But they also remembered fewer than the nominal groups did by totaling the efforts of its solitary workers. In other words, the collaborators’ whole was less than the sum of its parts.

This so-called “collaborative inhibition” affects recall for all sorts of things, from word pairs to emotionally laden events; it affects strangers or spouses, children or adults. It is, in scientific lingo, “robust.”

What explains this? One dynamic is “retrieval disruption”: Each person remembers in his or her own way, and compelled to listen to others, can’t use those strategies effectively. Sometimes that effect fades. Sometimes it squashes the memories for good, causing “post collaborative forgetting.” Then there’s “social contagion” of errors, wherein a group member can implant erroneous recollections in another’s memory. – “Psychologists Ask How Well — Or Badly — We Remember Together”, ScienceDaily, (Apr. 28, 2011)

One wonders how Richard Dawkins’s theoretical meme (1976, a unit of idea, hopefully gene-based) would fare in all this? To say nothing of “memeplexes” or Susan Blackmore’s deceitful meme gangs (traditional religion, of course). One consequence of understanding the mind-brain complex as – in part – a quantum process could be the end of a search for a mechanism for how it works.

Comments
Mung: "Believing that someone is wrong, and even telling them so, is not inconsistent with loving them." The trouble with the English words "wrong" and "right" is that they have multiple meanings, which are often confused in usage. If by "believing that someone is wrong" you mean the act of judging them morally, then I respectfully disagree, for two reasons: 1) Judgment is an act of separation. When I judge another I separate myself from them, whereas love, real love, is an act of uniting, bringing into oneness. 2) From my own experience, it is invariably true that in the moment of judgment, I do not love, and in the moment of love, I do not judge. Note: the term judgment as I am using it here includes moral condemnation. One can love and still recognize that a person is not acting in accord with their own integrity or values, for example, as long as there is no moral condemnation included in the observation. And indeed one can even speak to them about it from a stance of loving them, as long as there is no condemnation included. But if one comes from a place of judgment, the communication will inevitably reflect that, and they will know, always, that they are being judged and condemned, and will react accordingly.Bruce David
May 4, 2011
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Believing that someone is wrong, and even telling them so, is not inconsistent with loving them.Mung
May 4, 2011
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Bruce, I have penetrated your fog several times and provided a summary account of your errors. I feel no need to do it again. Nor do I feel any obligation to provide for you the correct time line of Gospel events as I did on another thread.StephenB
May 4, 2011
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StephenB: You do love those straw man arguments, don't you, Stephen? It's a shame you aren't a Darwinist. You'd be right at home. They love the straw man arguments, too. I'm going to show you exactly how you distorted my meaning so you could claim that my thinking is "muddled". "1) The apostles told different stories and contradicted each other, meaning that their stories were too dissimilar to be believable" What you represent as my meaning is something I never said and is not, in fact my meaning. My meaning is this (and has been from the beginning): given that the stories recorded by the gospel authors (who I do not believe were any of the apostles) are different and in several instances apparently contradictory, this is evidence the Bible cannot reasonably be taken as an unimpeachable source of truth except on the basis of faith. Since I explicitly allow for accepting the truth of the New Testament on the basis of faith, that implies that I do not hold it to be unbelievable (since faith is belief, is it not?). "2) The apostles colluded to make sure that their stories all corresponded to Old Testament prophecies, meaning that their stories were too conveniently similar to be believable." This one is WAY off. I never said that the authors of the gospels colluded in any way, nor did I say that their stories were too similar to be believable. My contention with regard to the prophesies was simply that a possible explanation for Jesus' fulfillment of the prophesies is that one or more those authors altered the stories so that the prophesies were reported as fulfilled. I further offered as evidence for this possibility the two conflicting stories of Jesus' birth from Matthew and Luke, which appear to be two such attempts at having part of the prophesy fulfilled (that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem) while still being faithful to known historical fact (that Jesus was from Nazareth). Again, since I allow for the acceptance of the unimpeachable truth of the Bible on the basis of faith, I clearly have not concluded that it is unbelievable that the prophesies were in fact fulfilled, or that the stories themselves are unbelievable, merely that such a belief would be an act of faith. Feel free to believe that the Bible is unimpeachably true if you wish, and I know that you have interpretations that in your own mind resolve the apparent contradictions in it. I don't say that the Bible is unbelievable, I merely contend that there is legitimate room for doubt, so that if you wish to hold that it is absolutely true, faith is what is required (given the absence of a time machine that would allow us to go back and check).Bruce David
May 3, 2011
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Bruce David; 'It only requires surrendering judgment' And you have 'surrendered judgement' quite well! :)bornagain77
May 3, 2011
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To both Mung and Bornagain: You both include much more of life in your concepts of right and wrong than I do. Living without right and wrong in the way that I mean the terms does not preclude having preferences, likes and dislikes, desire, or passion. It only requires surrendering judgment (in the sense of labeling someone morally wrong or evil). What you get in exchange is love. It's a trade I'll take any day.Bruce David
May 3, 2011
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My intent was to demonstrate that his biases prevent him from understanding my point of view.
Just sayin. You make it sound like that's a bad thing. But it's not. So why bring it up? He should be able to flat out lie and completely misrepresent anything you say and what ground would you even have for objecting? You actually appear to care that his biases prevent him from understanding your point of view, and I'm trying to understand why.Mung
May 3, 2011
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Mung: "Sheesh. To an unbiased observer it could even seem that you think he’s wrong for doing so. If there’s no right and wrong what are you complaining about?" I am not saying he is wrong in any MORAL sense, which is the only sense in which I believe that right and wrong don't exist. If you actually interpret what I wrote to mean that I am accusing him moral turpitude, well, I can only say that was never my intent. My intent was to demonstrate that his biases prevent him from understanding my point of view.Bruce David
May 3, 2011
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You see, Bornagain, that is exactly what I am talking about. You are simply unable to imagine the possibility that right and wrong do not exist. (This is why I have accused you of a lack of imagination on occasion.) Therefore, you are unable to understand my spiritual position because everything I say gets squeezed into your own philosophy of “right and wrong” and comes out totally skewed.
Sheesh. To an unbiased observer it could even seem that you think he's wrong for doing so. If there's no right and wrong what are you complaining about?Mung
May 3, 2011
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Bruce David you state; 'You don’t seem to have much ability to draw fine distinctions.' Bruce David it is you that refuses to see 'the fine distinction' that you have made in your premise. In fact, your premise that 'all is god' precludes any such distinctions from being possible in the first place (coarse or fine). Moreover you have lost the right to tell me that my 'inner knowing', that you are completely lost in a fluffy 'if it feels good do it' philosophy, is any less valid than your 'inner knowing' that tells you that you are your own god.bornagain77
May 3, 2011
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---Bruce David: "Anyone reading the whole comment (#29) can easily see that in its entirety it makes perfect sense and is quite reasonable." Througout the ongoing debate, you have tried to juggle two irreconcilable arguments: 1) The apostles told different stories and contradicted each other, meaning that their stories were too dissimilar to be believable 2) The apostles colluded to make sure that their stories all corresponded to Old Testament prophecies, meaning that their stories were too conveniently similar to be believeable. ---"Or perhaps you’re just not smart enough to understand it." Or perhaps you are interpreting your muddled thinking as subtle thinking.StephenB
May 3, 2011
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Bornagain: "For you state that any part of reality provides ‘more’ revelation from your god than any other part is to deny your premise that ‘all is god’ " You don't seem to have much ability to draw fine distinctions. Everything that exists is Him, yes, but that in no way implies that every utterance by every person throughout all time is the truth. This should be obvious. I have explained many times that in my philosophy, when we are born into a physical body, we forget Who We Really Are, and that this is in accordance with the Plan. Thus, even though we are all a part of God, we have deliberately forgotten that fact in order to have the glorious experience of remembering. So it is not surprising that most of us most of the time do not reveal the Truth in our utterances. Revelation is an outcome of someone being strongly in touch with the Truth (i.e., God) and with minimal interference from his or her intellectual and emotional 'filters'. I say "minimal" because it is virtually impossible to be a completely pure channel while in a physical body, so all revelation is provisional. Another reason why revelation can never be perfect is that it must of necessity be expressed in language, and language is an imperfect vehicle for expressing spiritual Truth, which is ineffable. This is why the ultimate authority is always our own inner knowing.Bruce David
May 3, 2011
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Bruce David, "There is a quite extensive discussion of the whole idea of right and wrong and how it basically collapses when examined carefully." So being able to see what is 'right' exists long enough for you to be able to decide that there is no right and wrong, good or bad, or truth or deception??? ,,, I'd say something has collapsed alright, but it sure ain't moral objectivity!bornagain77
May 3, 2011
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Proponentist: "I haven’t read the book" I recommend that you read the book. There is a quite extensive discussion of the whole idea of right and wrong and how it basically collapses when examined carefully. It's too long for me to paraphrase here and do it justice.Bruce David
May 3, 2011
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Here is a quote from my own source of revelation (The New Revelations, a Conversation with God, by Neale Donald Walsch, p. 340): “There is no such thing as Right and Wrong. There is only What Works and What Does Not Work, depending upon what it is that you seek to be, do, or have.”
I haven't read the book, but I would bet that statement comes with very many qualifications and cannot be taken at face value. If not, it could be a very dangerous philosophy. At the same time, exchanging the terms Right/Wrong, for Works/Does Not Work may actually be changing nothing. For anyone, for example, with a single-minded desire to serve God - things that "do not work" are the same as "things which are wrong".Proponentist
May 3, 2011
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Bruce David, you simply have no foundation to state,, 'Conversations with God books are a direct source of revelation from God' ,,, for 'all is god' in your view! For you state that any part of reality provides 'more' revelation from your god than any other part is to deny your premise that 'all is god' i.e. you can't have your cake and eat it to Bruce!!!!bornagain77
May 3, 2011
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Bornagain: "Bruce David, by you making your ‘preference’ the final, and I would say sole, arbiter of what is right and wrong, good and evil..." You see, Bornagain, that is exactly what I am talking about. You are simply unable to imagine the possibility that right and wrong do not exist. (This is why I have accused you of a lack of imagination on occasion.) Therefore, you are unable to understand my spiritual position because everything I say gets squeezed into your own philosophy of "right and wrong" and comes out totally skewed. You want to quote scripture to me? Here is a quote from my own source of revelation (The New Revelations, a Conversation with God, by Neale Donald Walsch, p. 340): "There is no such thing as Right and Wrong. There is only What Works and What Does Not Work, depending uponwhat it is that you seek to be, do, or have." That comes directly from God. Now I know that you will be aghast and dismayed that I could actually believe that the Conversations with God books are a direct source of revelation from God, but the fact is that I do. You're just going to have to accept it.Bruce David
May 3, 2011
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Bruce David in case you did not see this in O'Leary's post, This is really an interesting interview on ‘Undesigned Coincidences’ of the Bible, with Tim McGrew, which really provides airtight rebuttals to your arguments that you have been using trying to undermine the authority of scripture. At approx. the 46 minute mark of the interview they even go into one of your favorite arguments against the accuracy of the Gospel’s account of the beginning of Jesus’s life, and show that it is indeed historically accurate. here is the link: http://evidence4faith.com/bornagain77
May 3, 2011
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the quote above is from C.S. Lewisbornagain77
May 3, 2011
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Bruce David, I think this song most appropriate; God is God (HD Version) - Steven Curtis Chapman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8u1in165g4 You must picture me alone in that room in Magdalen, night after night, feeling, whenever my mind lifted even for a second from my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly desired not to meet. That which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. In the Trinity Term of 1929 I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England." – Surprised by Joybornagain77
May 3, 2011
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Bruce David, by you making your 'preference' the final, and I would say sole, arbiter of what is right and wrong, good and evil, you have in fact taken 'original sin' to its absurd conclusion in your heart and in your mind; By you saying 'all the universe is god' therefore I am god also (aka the Shirley McClain mantra) you have exalted yourself into the position which only God Himself has the right to hold. Genesis 3:4-5 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" asked Jesus in reply; "there is no one truly good except One--that is, God." John 8:23-24 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."bornagain77
May 3, 2011
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Three Views on the New Testament use of the Old Testament The Right Doctrine from the Wrong Texts? Walter Kaiser and Jewish Exegetical Methods in the NTMung
May 3, 2011
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StephenB: "—Bruce: 'Did you actually read what I wrote?' I am afraid so." (#37) Just enough to cherry pick it, in order to try to make me look foolish. Again. Give it up, Stephen. Anyone reading the whole comment (#29) can easily see that in its entirety it makes perfect sense and is quite reasonable. This is not to say that one must agree with it, of course, but if you do disagree with it, have the good grace to respond to the complete meaning of what I actually wrote, not some straw man version. Or perhaps you're just not smart enough to understand it.Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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Bornagain: response to number 34: You are simply blind to the possibility that preference could be on any basis other than good and evil. I prefer love to judgement because I like the way it feels when I love. This does NOT imply that I hold love to be good and judgement to be bad, and I have NOT surrendered my right to prefer something over something else, in spite of how much you may think I have. You can rant and rail and call me incosistent all you want; it doesn't make it so.Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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---Bruce: "Did you actually read what I wrote?" I am afraid so. ----[A] "I said that the authors of Luke and Matthew appear to have made up DIFFERENT stories about Jesus’ birth." ----[B] "My overall point is that it is quite possible that the reason Jesus’ life appears to have fulfilled the prophesies is that the authors of the gospels, who had knowledge of the prophesies, wrote the stories of Jesus life so that they corresponded to them." [A] the apostles told different lies [inconsistent accounts of Jesus' birth] in order to [B] confirm the same lie [a consistent acount about the place of Jesus' birth].StephenB
May 2, 2011
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bornagain 77, good to see that you are still minding the store. Keep up the good work.StephenB
May 2, 2011
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Bruce you simply completely lost!!. You have the audacity to try to overturn the fortress of Christianity, all the while having nothing but quicksand in your personal philosophy to stand on. It would be absolutely funny for me if the consequences were not so 'potentially' terrible for you; -------------- Pantheistic Near Death Experience Studies: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Excerpt: The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of `going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. (Murphy 99) http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&ampbornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Bruce David, but in your view judging is just as good as love is since 'all is god'. i.e. you gave up the right to establish 'competing identity' for any terms you may choose to debate. For that matter lunacy retains as much 'goodness' as reason itself does since 'all is god' in your view. Lies are just as good as truth, Love is just as good as hate, death is just as good as life. No wonder you hate judgement, you have forfeited your ability to rationally judge in your starting premise of 'all is god'! 'You can't have your cake and eat it to' is truly a fitting statement for your pantheistic madhouse!bornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Bornagain: "Bruce David if anyone is twisting stuff just so he can win an argument and could care less about the truth it is you, for you completely ignored where StephenB nailed you; ‘In the preceding paragraph you stated that the prophecies are too vague to qualify as a meaningful prophecy, and now you say that they were so precise that the apostles could rewrite history around them.’" Please read what I actually wrote. I deliberately used the phrase "in general" in my statement (which both of you pointedly ignore), because I know that in some cases prophesies or parts of prophesies are relatively specific. If you both had an interest in genuine dialog you would put a lot more effort into understanding what I am actually attempting to convey and a lot less effort in constantly trying to trip me up.Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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Bornagain: ...since ‘all is god’ in your pantheistic worldview, how do distinguish between right and wrong since you have given the right to distinguish ‘rightness’ and ‘wrongness’ in the first place? Do you live as if there is no right and wrong in the world? i.e. do you walk your talk?" Good questions. To the first, the difference between us, as I see it, is that I see ALL of God's creation, including what we label as evil, as serving a purpose (God's purpose), whereas you, I believe, see evil as an unfortunate byproduct of God's having given us imperfect creatures free will. What is God's purpose for what we call evil? As I have explained many times, it is so that we can EXPERIENCE our essential goodness by comparison. If all there is is good (which is true in the transcendent state), then it is like it doesn't exist. In order to experience good, we need to have an experience of evil with which to compare it. Thus, from God's perspective (and ours, when we can stand back and look at the big picture), there is no evil, since what we call evil is necessary for the fulfillment of that higher purpose, and what is necessary for the fulfillment of God's purpose can't be evil in the largest sense. In my personal life, I always try to understand and have compassion for the reasons that people do things that I might be tempted to judge. So for example, my stepson resists my control mightily. I am definitely tempted to judge him for it, but when I catch myself in that mode, I remind myself that he was raised during his first few years by very controlling grandparents, and developed his resistance to control as a way to survive. As a result, I back off much more from forcing the issue with him than I would have, say 30 years ago. So for the most part, I can say that yes, I do walk my talk. I'm still human and fallible, but when I catch myself in judgement mode, I generally self correct, and I don't go into judgement very often these days. Judgement and love really are mutually exclusive: when we love we do not judge, and when we judge, we cannot love. Since God IS love, judgment cannot be one of His qualities.Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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