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Yes, we all do, but that’s not the whole story …

Some findings in the field of collaborative memory research have been counter intuitive. For one, collaboration can hurt memory. Some studies have compared the recall of items on lists by “collaborative groups,” or those who study together, and “nominal groups,” in which individuals work alone and the results are collated. The collaborative groups remembered more items than any single person would have done alone. But they also remembered fewer than the nominal groups did by totaling the efforts of its solitary workers. In other words, the collaborators’ whole was less than the sum of its parts.

This so-called “collaborative inhibition” affects recall for all sorts of things, from word pairs to emotionally laden events; it affects strangers or spouses, children or adults. It is, in scientific lingo, “robust.”

What explains this? One dynamic is “retrieval disruption”: Each person remembers in his or her own way, and compelled to listen to others, can’t use those strategies effectively. Sometimes that effect fades. Sometimes it squashes the memories for good, causing “post collaborative forgetting.” Then there’s “social contagion” of errors, wherein a group member can implant erroneous recollections in another’s memory. – “Psychologists Ask How Well — Or Badly — We Remember Together”, ScienceDaily, (Apr. 28, 2011)

One wonders how Richard Dawkins’s theoretical meme (1976, a unit of idea, hopefully gene-based) would fare in all this? To say nothing of “memeplexes” or Susan Blackmore’s deceitful meme gangs (traditional religion, of course). One consequence of understanding the mind-brain complex as – in part – a quantum process could be the end of a search for a mechanism for how it works.

Comments
background info for Mung; Pantheism is the position that God and nature are the same thing. “Pantheism” comes from two Greek words, ‘pan’ meaning ‘all’ and ‘theos’ meaning 'god.' So, it would teach that all the stars, galaxies, planets, mountains, wind, and rain, are all one and the same... part of what God is. So, pantheists would say that all is God. Biblical Christianity teaches that God is separate from his creation and he created it (Gen. 1:1-30), where pantheism says that God and creation share the same nature and essence. A huge problem with pantheism is that it cannot account for the existence of the universe. The universe is not infinitely old. It had a beginning. This would mean that God also had a beginning, but how can something bring itself into existence? This is impossible, so this leaves us with the question of where God and the universe came from. Pantheism cannot answer this question and it naturally leads to absurdities. http://carm.org/questions/about-philosophy/what-pantheismbornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Bruce David if anyone is twisting stuff just so he can win an argument and could care less about the truth it is you, for you completely ignored where StephenB nailed you; 'In the preceding paragraph you stated that the prophecies are too vague to qualify as a meaningful prophecy, and now you say that they were so precise that the apostles could rewrite history around them.'bornagain77
May 2, 2011
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StephenB: The way you twist my statements to your own purposes is clearly the work of someone who is trying to win an argument, not someone who is genuinely seeking truth. In that you remind me of a Darwinist defending his cause. The most blatant example is the following: "First, you say that the apostles disagreed over Christ’s birthplace and now you say that they colluded to come up with the same story. What is it rational thought that you find so unappealing?" Did you actually read what I wrote? I said that the authors of Luke and Matthew appear to have made up DIFFERENT stories about Jesus' birth. In order to fulfill the prophesy and yet have Jesus be from Nazareth, each one has him born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth, but beyond that, the stories are very different. One has Mary and Joseph living in Nazareth, travelling to Bethlehem for the census, Mary giving birth to Jesus in a stable, and returning to Nazareth once the Jewish obligations of birth have been concluded (roughly 40 days later). The other has them living in Bethlehem, giving birth to Jesus (in their home, presumably), and then fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod, where they live until Herod dies. They then return, but to Nazareth, not to Bethlehem, because they fear Herod's son, who was then king. My overall point is that it is quite possible that the reason Jesus' life appears to have fulfilled the prophesies is that the authors of the gospels, who had knowledge of the prophesies, wrote the stories of Jesus life so that they corresponded to them. I'm not arguing that this is necessarily true, either. My point is that there is sufficient historical uncertainty that the only way to arrive at certainty about the truth of the New Testament is through faith, not reason, and not because the gospels are unimpeachably accurate historical sources. And not because prophesies were fulfilled, either.Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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Bruce, as Stephen Meyer pointed out in the video, since you maintain that all dualities are a illusion, since 'all is god' in your pantheistic worldview, how do distinguish between right and wrong since you have given the right to distinguish 'rightness' and 'wrongness' in the first place? Do you live as if there is no right and wrong in the world? i.e. do you walk your talk?bornagain77
May 2, 2011
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4. Jesus himself in Mark utters the prophesy that the coming of the new age on earth, when the sun and moon would grow dark and the stars fall from the heavens, etc., and God would establish the new order on earth with the “Son of Man” coming riding on the clouds to be its ruler, would happen during the lifetimes of his disciples. As this did not happen, a prophesy of Jesus himself was not fulfilled.
If you read the text again, you'll see that Jesus said, "Do you see all these? (v. 2)" So what makes you think the events you are talking about refer to anything other than the destruction of Jerusalem, which did happen within a single generation, in AD 70.
Now I know that you and others have explanations for all of my objections, but to me your explanations seem to be simply wishful thinking born of denial.
Actually, you're the one in denial. It is clear that Jesus was predicting the fall of Jerusalem and your failure to admit this is clearly due to denial on your part of the clear and plain referent.Mung
May 2, 2011
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Hi StephenB glad to see your clarity in full force.bornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Bornagain: "Bruce Gordon, I don’t care if you appeal to Einstein, your beliefs are absurd from first principles of right reason." There you go again with "right reason", as if only you and a few other people who agree with you understand the proper use of reason, and everyone else, including nearly all of the thinkers in the whole history of Western and non-Western philosophy did not. Now THAT'S absurd.Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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---Bruce David: ---"Prophesies in general are vague enough that they can be interpreted as having foreseen a wide variety of actual occurrences." What is vague about a virgin birth in Bethlehem? ---"The authors of the Gospels, particularly Matthew, knew the old testament prophesies regarding the coming of the Messiah, and could easily have altered the stories to fit with them." In the preceding paragraph you stated that the prophecies are too vague to qualify as a meaningful prophecy, and now you say that they were so precise that the apostles could rewrite history around them. ---"There is evidence in the gospels themselves that that is exactly what Matthew and Luke did with the story of Jesus’ birth. They each knew that the prophesy is that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, yet it was known that Jesus was from Nazareth, so they each made up a story to have him born in Bethlehem but raised in Nazareth." First, you say that the apostles disagreed over Christ's birthplace and now you say that they colluded to come up with the same story. What is it rational thought that you find so unappealing?StephenB
May 2, 2011
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correction Bruce David, I don't care if you,,,bornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Bruce Gordon, I don't care if you appeal to Einstein, your beliefs are absurd from first principles of right reason; For one absurdity, your belief system, much like atheism, cannot ground morality, as Dr. Stephen Meyer makes clear at the 6:30 minute mark of this following video; Stephen Meyer - Morality Presupposes Theism (1 of 4) - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpdh1b0X_Mbornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Bornagain: And forgive me if I don't buy your characterization of my beliefs as "absurd" and "irrational". There is nothing in my belief system that is not also held by others, much smarter than you or StephenB, such as Ibn al 'Arabi, Bulent Rauf, Bishop Berkeley, and it turns out, Bruce Gordon, co-editor of The Nature of Nature.* I don't contend, by the way that each of these men held or hold every one of my beliefs, but I do contend that each of my beliefs is supported by at least some of these thinkers. As I have said before, this doesn't make my ideas true per se, but I submit that it does rescue them from your charge of irrationality and absurdity. *Toward the end of his essay, "A Quantum Theoretical Argument against Naturalism", Bruce Gordon states, "I contend that there is one quite reasonable way to ground this ontology and obviate any puzzlement:...[a] theistic metaphysics THAT LOOKS A LOT LIKE GEORGE BERKELEY AND JONATHAN EDWARDS...The difference in the present case is that this explanatory hypothesis is grounded by ontological deduction from fundamental physical theory and experiment [ie., quantum mechanics and relativity], rather than by epistemological analysis (Berkeley) or philosophico-theological argument (Edwards)." (emphasis added)Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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Bruce David, I know that you are not given to reason from your many 'denialisms' at facing the absurdity of your own Patheistic belief. But what strikes me most about the absurdity of your pantheistic beliefs is that you will believe in the most absurd contradictions so as to maintain your beliefs even when shown point blank by StephenB and others their sheer irrationality, but when corrected of your shallow criticisms of Christianity, no matter how compelling or reasonable the evidence presented to you is, you will always choose the most mundane objection to cling to instead of soberly assessing the evidence. For instance, you plead with me to 'stop with the prophecies' but clearly the prophecies concerning Israel becoming a nation again were written centuries before their fulfillment. And we have solid archeological evidence that testifies to the 'exactness' of the year!!! The scriptures are not 'fuzzy' as you maintained but clearly state that Israel would be 'dispersed and reassembled' in the 'latter days'. The only reasonable explanation for this is that God has left His unique 'supernatural watermark' on the Bible. This is clear to all fair minded people. And moreover the fact of the matter is that you cannot produce anything close to that sort of verifiability from your entire pantheistic 'madhouse' of writings. Yet you claim that your books are 'inspired' and that your 'inner knowing' allows you to deduce this. Forgive if I do not trust your 'inner knowing' and consider your criticism of Christian prophetic apologetics to be much less than forthright and ballanced!bornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Bornagain, You keep trying to use Old Testament prophesies to prove that the New Testament is true. It simply doesn't follow, for the following reasons: 1. That a few of the numerous old testament authors had an accurate vision of the future does not make the writings of the other authors of the Bible true. 2. Prophesies in general are vague enough that they can be interpreted as having foreseen a wide variety of actual occurrences. 3. The authors of the Gospels, particularly Matthew, knew the old testament prophesies regarding the coming of the Messiah, and could easily have altered the stories to fit with them. There is evidence in the gospels themselves that that is exactly what Matthew and Luke did with the story of Jesus' birth. They each knew that the prophesy is that the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, yet it was known that Jesus was from Nazareth, so they each made up a story to have him born in Bethlehem but raised in Nazareth. But they are different stories! 4. Jesus himself in Mark utters the prophesy that the coming of the new age on earth, when the sun and moon would grow dark and the stars fall from the heavens, etc., and God would establish the new order on earth with the "Son of Man" coming riding on the clouds to be its ruler, would happen during the lifetimes of his disciples. As this did not happen, a prophesy of Jesus himself was not fulfilled. Now I know that you and others have explanations for all of my objections, but to me your explanations seem to be simply wishful thinking born of denial. Nothing you or others have said has done anything to change my opinion on this, so please, stop with the prophesies already!Bruce David
May 2, 2011
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Bruce David; And just how certain are you that when you got out of bed this morning that gravity would hold you to the floor instead of you suddenly flying off into space? i.e. looked at naturalistically there are probabilities for everything, even a probability that gravity will suddenly change in value right beside your bed. Yet you certainly did not grab hold of your bed this morning when you stepped onto the floor fearful of the 'probability' that Gravity should give way beside your bed. I maintain that the 'probabilities' of the Bible being 'inspired by God' to be just as great; The Case for Jesus the Messiah — Incredible Prophecies that Prove God Exists By Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. John Weldon, and Dr. Walter Kaiser, Jr. Excerpt: 'But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation Stoner used 48 prophecies (even though he could have used 456) and arrived at the extremely conservative estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is one in 10^157. How large is the number 10^157? 10^157 contains 157 zeros! Let us try to illustrate this number using electrons. Electrons are very small objects. They are smaller than atoms. It would take 2.5 times 10^15 of them, laid side by side, to make one inch. Even if we counted four electrons every second and counted day and night, it would still take us 19 million years just to count a line of electrons one inch long. But how many electrons would it take if we were dealing with 10^157 electrons? Imagine building a solid ball of electrons that would extend in all directions from the earth a length of 6 billion light years. The distance in miles of just one light year is 6.4 trillion miles. That would be a big ball! But not big enough to measure 10^157 electrons. In order to do that, you must take that big ball of electrons reaching the length of 6 billion light years long in all directions and multiply it by 6 x 10^28! How big is that? It’s the length of the space required to store trillions and trillions and trillions of the same gigantic balls and more. In fact, the space required to store all of these balls combined together would just start to “scratch the surface” of the number of electrons we would need to really accurately speak about 10^157. But assuming you have some idea of the number of electrons we are talking about, now imagine marking just one of those electrons in that huge number. Stir them all up. Then appoint one person to travel in a rocket for as long as he wants, anywhere he wants to go. Tell him to stop and segment a part of space, then take a high-powered microscope and find that one marked electron in that segment. What do you think his chances of being successful would be? It would be one in 10157. Remember, this number represents the chance of only 48 prophecies coming true in one person. It illustrates why it is absolutely impossible for anyone to have fulfilled all the Messianic prophecies by chance. In fact, a leading authority on probability theory, Emile Borél, states in his book Probabilities and Life, that once we go past one chance in 10^50, the probabilities are so small it’s impossible to think they will ever occur. Again, all of this means it is impossible for 48 prophecies to be fulfilled by chance. It is proof that there must be a God who supernaturally gave this information. http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/ATRJ/proof/ATRJ1103PDF/ATRJ1103-3.pdf The question is, can it be shown that such prophecies do exist? Well yes, there is a Biblical prophecy that has been fulfilled within our generation that has the entire meta-narrative of the Bible wrapped up within it; The return of the Israelis to their homeland! The Precisely Fulfilled Prophecy Of Israel Becoming A Nation In 1948 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041241 Bible Prophecy Fulfilled - Israel 1948 - article Excerpt: Subtracting 907,200 days from the Gregorian date of May 14, 1948, the calculator reveals a date of July 15, 537 B.C. ,,, Although July 15, 537 B.C. can not be verified by outside sources as the exact day of Cyrus's proclamation, we do know that 537 B.C. was the year in which he made it. As such, we can know for certain that the Bible, in one of the most remarkable prophecies in history, accurately foresaw the year of Israel's restoration as an independent nation some two thousand five hundred years before the event occurred. http://ezinearticles.com/?Bible-Prophecy-Fulfilled---Israel-1948&id=449317 ----------------- Further note; The Center Of The Universe Is Life! - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 A Quantum Hologram of Christ’s Resurrection? http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Front and Back 3-D images - articles and videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg This following recent video revealed a very surprising holographic image that was found on the Shroud: Turin Shroud Hologram Reveals The Words 'The Lamb' - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041205bornagain77
May 2, 2011
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Sorry, my last post should have been addressed to Mung, not DrBot.Bruce David
May 1, 2011
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DrBot: "But you’re wrong." How am I wrong? What is a source of CERTAINTY that the Bible is an unimpeachable source of truth other than faith? Certainty means without any doubt, not just, "probable" or "the best explanation", or something similar.Bruce David
May 1, 2011
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We can’t be certain of any of it. That is the point. If you believe that the New Testament accurately portrays Jesus’ life and teaching, it can only be on the basis of faith. According to what definition of faith? Faith without evidence?
My point, really, is that Christians would do well to recognize this fact and stop trying to convince the rest of us that there is any reason other than faith to be certain that the Bible is an unimpeachable source of truth.
But you're wrong, and therefore Christians have no reason to submit to your desires, regardless of whether or not they believe the Bible is an unimpeachable source of truth. Every objection you've raised is disputed, and you then aver that since your claims are disputed, they prove your claims are true?Mung
May 1, 2011
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Mung: "How certain can we be that the authors of the gospels did not record them until 35 to 65 years later? How certain can we be that the only sources the gospel writers had available to them at the time they wrote were word of mouth stories rather than events that had previously been put into writing?" We can't be certain of any of it. That is the point. If you believe that the New Testament accurately portrays Jesus' life and teaching, it can only be on the basis of faith. My point, really, is that Christians would do well to recognize this fact and stop trying to convince the rest of us that there is any reason other than faith to be certain that the Bible is an unimpeachable source of truth.Bruce David
May 1, 2011
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Robinson_%28bishop_of_Woolwich%29#Redating_the_New_Testament http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1976_robinson_redating-testament.htmlMung
May 1, 2011
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How certain can we be that by the time the authors of the gospels recorded them (in Greek) roughly 35 to 65 years later, these stories still accurately portrayed events and utterances as they actually occurred?
How certain can we be that the authors of the gospels did not record them until 35 to 65 years later? How certain can we be that the only sources the gospel writers had available to them at the time they wrote were word of mouth stories rather than events that had previously been put into writing?Mung
May 1, 2011
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Denyse, you wrote: "In an oral-based literary culture, one must be accurate when reciting key cultural sources because the text is owned by the whole culture, not by the reciter." This seems reasonable, certainly, but this raises a couple of questions: 1. First, has this thesis ever actually been verified by any kind of study of oral based literary cultures? 2. To what degree does this observation actually apply to the spread of Christianity in the first few decades after the death of Jesus? In other words, the early Christians were not, strictly speaking, an oral-based literary culture. There were a number of groups of people (remember that early Christianity was far from monolithic, with many different groups representing a number of different views) spreading the "good news" from Aramaic speaking Galilee into the Greek speaking portion of the ancient Mediterranean. How certain can we be that by the time the authors of the gospels recorded them (in Greek) roughly 35 to 65 years later, these stories still accurately portrayed events and utterances as they actually occurred?Bruce David
April 30, 2011
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Hi all, especially Bruce David, Mung, and paragwinn: In an oral-based literary culture, one must be accurate when reciting key cultural sources because the text is owned by the whole culture, not by the reciter. Commentators are permitted to comment, but the text itself must be stable.O'Leary
April 30, 2011
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I was simply answering your question.paragwinn
April 30, 2011
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This helps Bruce David's case how?Mung
April 30, 2011
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Mung: "How much emotion could there be in writing about something that didn’t happen to you first hand" Judging by such works as James Frey's semi-fictional autobiography 'A Million Little Pieces.', quite a lot. Just ask Oprah.paragwinn
April 30, 2011
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I wonder how this relates to the reliability of the gospels as historically accurate records of events, being stories that were repeated orally (ie., as remembered) for some 3 to 6 decades before they were written down.
Who says it took three to six decades before any of the material in the gospels was put into writing?
The stories that comprise the various gospels certainly qualify as “emotionally laden events”, n’est ce pas?
Maybe, maybe not. Some perhaps, certainly not all. For some people, perhaps, but hardly for all. Have you actually done an analysis of the Gospels for emotion laden content? Has anyone? How much emotion could there be in writing about something that didn't happen to you first hand three to six decades after the events in question took place?Mung
April 30, 2011
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OT: Justin Brierley's Unbelievable Christian Radio now has a video out on last weeks debate over Rob Bell's new 'universalism' book 'Love Wins'; Unbelievable? Debate: Heaven and Hell Rob Bell debates with Christian blogger Adrian Warnock, covering the issues raised by Rob's latest book, Love Wins. (Total: 58mins) http://www.premier.tv/lovewinsbornagain77
April 30, 2011
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Denyse, An interesting idea. I wonder if it is generally true that in societies in which only a small fraction or none of the population is literate, memory of societal history and myth is much more accurate than in literate societies such as ours. Of course in Muslim cultures even today, many people can recite the Koran accurately from memory. Do you know if there have been any studies of this phenomenon?Bruce David
April 29, 2011
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PS: Solzhenitsyn wrote somewhere that during his time in the camps, his memory vastly improved because he no longer had access to printed material. He memorized his corpus of poems rather than taking the risk of writing them out.O'Leary
April 29, 2011
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Good question, Bruce David. In older cultures, where formal recitation of received texts was the normal method of transmission, once something came to be regarded as a received text, it didn't likely change much. Many Jews could recite the whole Torah accurately.O'Leary
April 29, 2011
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