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The Thought that Stops Thought

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Eric Hedin writes:

Do we believe that rational thought is possible?

We may at times reason badly, but we do not thereby mistrust the existence or efficacy of reason.

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There are those, however, who do dismiss reason. “There is a thought that stops thought,” wrote G. K. Chesterton.[i] It’s the idea that there is no fundamental basis for reason. Such a self-destructive thought is aided and abetted by thinking nature is all that there is. If nature is only particles in the void obeying mindless regularities, where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?

The atheist rejects faith in God and holds that reality is limited to objective scientific reasoning within the constraints of the laws of nature and the material universe.

Perhaps not all who call themselves atheists are consistent atheists, but a consistent atheist would necessarily adhere to the view that the thoughts in his brain are only the result of interactions between charged particles governed by the laws of physics.

G. K. Chesterton wrote, “It is idle to talk always of the alternative of reason and faith. Reason is itself a matter of faith. It is an act of faith to assert that our thoughts have any relation to reality at all.”[ii] Thought itself requires a separateness from the mechanism of thinking. If naturalism is true, then our thoughts are not real in themselves; they are only random physical states of the molecules which make up the neurons of our brains. With such an assumption, we could not think. Our thoughts would only be interactions following the laws of nature, unguided by anything higher than the forces between atoms.

What becomes, then of “you”? Naturalism allows no identity of the individual beyond the probabilistic output of the three pound collection of atoms between our ears. “You cannot think if you are not separate from the subject of thought,” Chesterton continued. “Descartes said, ‘I think; therefore I am.’ The philosophic evolutionist reverses and negatives the epigram. He says, ‘I am not; therefore I cannot think.’”[iii]

Our minds, however, are unnatural in at least one important sense: they have the ability not only to comprehend nature, but also to transform nature’s elements into objects and machines that would never assemble themselves in that way. This fact is underscored by the common distinction between natural and artificial, between nature and artifice.

Years ago, I read something that brings the claims of naturalism into a stark light: Naturalism insists that hydrogen gas, given enough time, will turn into people. And since people make the technological marvels of our culture, we can extend this claim of naturalism to say that hydrogen gas, given enough time, will turn into cars, computers, and cathedrals. That’s one explanation on the table. The question is whether we are willing to consider another possibility, that mind is as much behind our finely tuned, unfolding universe as it is behind cars, computers, and cathedrals—the possibility, as C.S. Lewis put it, that “human thought is… God-kindled.”[iv] If so, then reason has a foundation far better than hydrogen gas, far better than particles in the void.


[i] G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy (Hollywood, FL: Simon & Brown, 1908, 2010), 28.

[ii] Chesterton, Orthodoxy (2010), 28.

[iii] Chesterton, Orthodoxy (2010), 29.

[iv] C. S. Lewis, Miracles: A Preliminary Study (New York: Harper Collins, 1947, 2001), 44.

Excerpted and adapted from Canceled Science: What Some Atheists Don’t Want You to See, by Eric Hedin (Seattle: Discovery Institute Press, 2021), ch. 11.

Comments
"Such a self-destructive thought is aided and abetted by thinking nature is all that there is. If nature is only particles in the void obeying mindless regularities, where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?" Perhaps *that* is the thought that stops all thought. It apparently doesn't occur to the (supposedly rational) Chesterton that the particles might be arranged in very complex ways to perform rational analysis. That could have been done very purposely by entities outside our universe, or could have been generated by mutation-selection evolution (if that process actually does generate such things) — but either way, there is no need for us to be "more" than that, in order to be capable of rational thought. Darwinists commit the fallacy of question begging when they cite the obvious existence of complex life as evidence that mutation-selection evolution could have generated it — but likewise, when anyone cites the obvious human capability for rational analysis as evidence that humans must be "more than" an extremely sophisticated arrangement of atoms, that question too is being shameless begged.DarelRex
November 27, 2022
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If nature is only particles in the void obeying mindless regularities, where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?
I can't tell whether this is Chesterton or Hedin's observation. However, rationality is found in the regularities themselves. The author doesn't claim that fundamental particles act unpredictably or chaotically (i.e., irrationally), but according to rules. We determine these rules by observation and measurement. How else would we have discovered these regularities? The implication that only "believers" are capable of rational thought is, itself, completely irrational....chuckdarwin
November 27, 2022
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If naturalism is true, then our thoughts are not real in themselves; they are only random physical states of the molecules which make up the neurons of our brains. With such an assumption, we could not think. Our thoughts would only be interactions following the laws of nature, unguided by anything higher than the forces between atoms.
This is entirely false. It does not follow from the non-existence of a personal God that our thoughts lack content or correspondence. Only someone wholly ignorant of basic logic could say something so inane.
Naturalism cannot enclose rationality.
Of course it can. Whatever are you talking about?PyrrhoManiac1
November 27, 2022
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Seversky @
Chesterton: “If nature is only particles in the void obeying mindless regularities, where in that scenario is there any room for rational inquiry?” “If naturalism is true, then our thoughts are not real in themselves; they are only random physical states of the molecules which make up the neurons of our brains. With such an assumption, we could not think. Our thoughts would only be interactions following the laws of nature, unguided by anything higher than the forces between atoms.”
This is a killer argument against naturalism. Naturalism cannot enclose rationality. Case closed. Seversky pretends that Chesterton’s argument boils down to the faithful attacking evolution and wants to discuss the resemblance between apes and humans. But that's not what this argument is about. This argument is much more profound: it unequivocally shows that naturalism is a non-starter; that it is an irrational position.Origenes
November 27, 2022
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Even atheists must admit rational thought occurs with humans. There would be no response to threads like this without rational thought. The letters typed show intent of thought that forms words with specific definitions. Sentences are formed by rules of the English language. The sentences show intent to make a given point by rational thought, or at least the perception of rational thought through emotion. Man is the only creature to have rational thought. It is the reason we choose alternatives to man's inhumanity to man, which is something else that cannot be found in other creatures.BobRyan
November 27, 2022
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Shoot, besides thoughts, and persons, becoming unreal and illusory under Darwinian materialism, even the supposedly simple concept of 'species' itself becomes impossible for Darwinists to explain within their reductive materialistic framework. As Logan Paul Gage states in the following article, ”In Aristotelian and Thomistic thought, each particular organism belongs to a certain universal class of things. Each individual shares a particular nature—or essence—and acts according to its nature. Squirrels act squirrelly and cats catty. We know with certainty that a squirrel is a squirrel because a crucial feature of human reason is its ability to abstract the universal nature from our sense experience of particular organisms.”,,, ” this denial (of true species) is a grave error, because the essence of the individual (the species in the Aristotelian sense) is the true object of our knowledge.”
Darwin, Design & Thomas Aquinas The Mythical Conflict Between Thomism & Intelligent Design by Logan Paul Gage Excerpt:,,, In Aristotelian and Thomistic thought, each particular organism belongs to a certain universal class of things. Each individual shares a particular nature—or essence—and acts according to its nature. Squirrels act squirrelly and cats catty. We know with certainty that a squirrel is a squirrel because a crucial feature of human reason is its ability to abstract the universal nature from our sense experience of particular organisms. Denial of True Species Enter Darwinism. Recall that Darwin sought to explain the origin of “species.” Yet as he pondered his theory, he realized that it destroyed species as a reality altogether. For Darwinism suggests that any matter can potentially morph into any other arrangement of matter without the aid of an organizing principle. He thought cells were like simple blobs of Jell-O, easily re-arrangeable. For Darwin, there is no immaterial, immutable form. In The Origin of Species he writes: “I look at the term species as one arbitrarily given, for the sake of convenience, to a set of individuals closely resembling each other, and that it does not essentially differ from the term variety, which is given to less distinct and more fluctuating forms. The term variety, again, in comparison with mere individual differences, is also applied arbitrarily, for convenience’s sake.” Statements like this should make card-carrying Thomists shudder.,,, The first conflict between Darwinism and Thomism, then, is the denial of true species or essences. For the Thomist, this denial is a grave error, because the essence of the individual (the species in the Aristotelian sense) is the true object of our knowledge. As philosopher Benjamin Wiker observes in Moral Darwinism, Darwin reduced species to “mere epiphenomena of matter in motion.” What we call a “dog,” in other words, is really just an arbitrary snapshot of the way things look at present. If we take the Darwinian view, Wiker suggests, there is no species “dog” but only a collection of individuals, connected in a long chain of changing shapes, which happen to resemble each other today but will not tomorrow. What About Man? Now we see Chesterton’s point. Man, the universal, does not really exist. According to the late Stanley Jaki, Chesterton detested Darwinism because “it abolishes forms and all that goes with them, including that deepest kind of ontological form which is the immortal human soul.” And if one does not believe in universals, there can be, by extension, no human nature—only a collection of somewhat similar individuals.,,, https://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=23-06-037-f
And you don’t have to take Logan Paul Gage’s word for it. In 2019, a Darwinist honestly admitted that “The most important concept in all of biology, (i.e. species), is a complete mystery”
What is a species? The most important concept in all of biology is a complete mystery – July 16, 2019 https://theconversation.com/what-is-a-species-the-most-important-concept-in-all-of-biology-is-a-complete-mystery-119200
And as the following 2020 article pointed out, Darwinists simply have no rigid, ‘one size fits all’, demarcation criteria for what actually constitutes a species.
At New Scientist: Questioning The Idea Of Species – Nov. 2020 Excerpt: Take the apparently simple organising principle of a species. You might have learned at school that a species is a group of individuals that can breed to produce fertile offspring. But this is just one of at least 34 competing definitions concocted over the past century by researchers working in different fields.,,,, https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/at-new-scientist-questioning-the-idea-of-species/
And as Logan Paul Gage pointed out in his article, even Charles Darwin himself honestly admitted that he did not have a rigid definition for what a species actually was when he stated, “I look at the term species as one arbitrarily given, for the sake of convenience,”
“I look at the term species as one arbitrarily given, for the sake of convenience, to a set of individuals closely resembling each other, and that it does not essentially differ from the term variety, which is given to less distinct and more fluctuating forms. The term variety, again, in comparison with mere individual differences, is also applied arbitrarily, for convenience’s sake.” – Charles Darwin
As should be needless to say, if your supposedly scientific theory can’t even tell us exactly what a ‘species’ actually is, well then, so much for your claim that you have scientifically explained the ‘origin of species’. i.e. Scientifically speaking, your claim is worse than useless, and as Wolfgang Pauli might have put it, your supposedly scientific theory is, ‘Not even wrong’. Darwinists, with their reductive materialistic framework, (and in direct contradiction to their blusterous, constantly repeated, claims to the contrary), simply have no realistic clue how any species may achieve its particular 'biological form', much less do they have any clue, (much less do they have any actual empirical evidence), as to how any distinct 'biological form', i.e. distinct species, may morph into another distinct 'biological form', i.e. into another distinct species.
On the problem of biological form - Marta Linde-Medina (2020) Excerpt: Embryonic development, which inspired the first theories of biological form, was eventually excluded from the conceptual framework of the Modern Synthesis, (neo-Darwinism) as irrelevant.,,, At present, the problem of biological form remains unsolved. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12064-020-00317-3 The Diverse Early Embryonic Development of Vertebrates and Implications Regarding Their Ancestry David W. Swift - July 21, 2022 Excerpt: It is well known that the embryonic development of vertebrates from different classes (e.g., fish, reptiles, mammals) pass through a “phylotypic stage” when they look similar, and this apparent homology is widely seen as evidence of their common ancestry. However, despite their morphological similarities, and contrary to evolutionary expectations, the phylotypic stages of different vertebrate classes arise in radically diverse ways. This diversity clearly counters the superficial appearance of homology of the phylotypic stage, and the plain inference is that vertebrates have not evolved from a common vertebrate ancestor. The diversity extends through all stages of early development—including cleavage and formation of the blastula, gastrulation, neurulation, and formation of the gut and extraembryonic membranes. This paper focuses on gastrulation, during which the germ layers originate and the vertebrate body-plan begins to form.,,, https://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2022.1/pdf
In conclusion, the reductive materialism of Atheistic Naturalism, time and time again, fails in its explanatory power at every level you look at it. There is simply no 'biological form' within the universe, (or even the macroscopic 'form' of the universe itself), that can ever be explained by reference solely to microscopic descriptions, and/or the behavior of, material particles. i.e. reductive materialism And this catastrophic failure for the explanations of reductive materialism lie at a very deep level. As the following extension of Godel's incomplete into quantum physics proved, "the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description."
Quantum physics problem proved unsolvable: Gödel and Turing enter quantum physics - December 9, 2015 Excerpt: A mathematical problem underlying fundamental questions in particle and quantum physics is provably unsolvable,,, It is the first major problem in physics for which such a fundamental limitation could be proven. The findings are important because they show that even a perfect and complete description of the microscopic properties of a material is not enough to predict its macroscopic behaviour.,,, "We knew about the possibility of problems that are undecidable in principle since the works of Turing and Gödel in the 1930s," added Co-author Professor Michael Wolf from Technical University of Munich. "So far, however, this only concerned the very abstract corners of theoretical computer science and mathematical logic. No one had seriously contemplated this as a possibility right in the heart of theoretical physics before. But our results change this picture. From a more philosophical perspective, they also challenge the reductionists' point of view, as the insurmountable difficulty lies precisely in the derivation of macroscopic properties from a microscopic description." http://phys.org/news/2015-12-quantum-physics-problem-unsolvable-godel.html Undecidability of the Spectral Gap – June 16, 2020 Toby Cubitt, David Perez-Garcia, and Michael M. Wolf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1502.04573.pdf
Verse:
Psalm 139:13-14 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
bornagain77
November 27, 2022
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As to,
"If naturalism is true, then our thoughts are not real in themselves; they are only random physical states of the molecules which make up the neurons of our brains. With such an assumption, we could not think. Our thoughts would only be interactions following the laws of nature, unguided by anything higher than the forces between atoms." - Chesterton
Besides our thoughts becoming unreal, a 'person' who is capable of having thoughts also becomes unreal, and/or illusory, under atheistic naturalism,
What Does It Mean to Say That Science & Religion Conflict? - M. Anthony Mills - April 16, 2018 Excerpt: Barr rightly observes that scientific atheists often unwittingly assume not just metaphysical naturalism but an even more controversial philosophical position: reductive materialism, which says all that exists is or is reducible to the material constituents postulated by our most fundamental physical theories. As Barr points out, this implies not only that God does not exist — because God is not material — but that you do not exist. For you are not a material constituent postulated by any of our most fundamental physical theories; at best, you are an aggregate of those constituents, arranged in a particular way. Not just you, but tables, chairs, countries, countrymen, symphonies, jokes, legal contracts, moral judgments, and acts of courage or cowardice — all of these must be fully explicable in terms of those more fundamental, material constituents. https://www.realclearreligion.org/articles/2018/04/16/what_does_it_mean_to_say_that_science_and_religion_conflict.html Atheistic Materialism – Does Richard Dawkins Exist? Dr. Dennis Bonnette – video 37:51 minute mark Quote: “It turns out that if every part of you, down to sub-atomic parts, are still what they were when they weren’t in you, in other words every ion,,, every single atom that was in the universe, that has now become part of your living body, is still what is was originally. It hasn’t undergone what metaphysicians call a ‘substantial change’. So you aren’t Richard Dawkins. You are just carbon and neon and sulfur and oxygen and all these individual atoms still. You can spout a philosophy that says scientific materialism, but there aren’t any scientific materialists to pronounce it.,,, That’s why I think they find it kind of embarrassing to talk that way. Nobody wants to stand up there and say, “You know, I’m not really here”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVCnzq2yTCg&t=37m51s "There is no self in, around, or as part of anyone’s body. There can’t be. So there really isn’t any enduring self that ever could wake up morning after morning worrying about why it should bother getting out of bed. The self is just another illusion, like the illusion that thought is about stuff or that we carry around plans and purposes that give meaning to what our body does. Every morning’s introspectively fantasized self is a new one, remarkably similar to the one that consciousness ceased fantasizing when we fell sleep sometime the night before. Whatever purpose yesterday’s self thought it contrived to set the alarm last night, today’s newly fictionalized self is not identical to yesterday’s. It’s on its own, having to deal with the whole problem of why to bother getting out of bed all over again.,,, - Alex Rosenberg - Professor of Philosophy Duke University - The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, ch.10
Thus, in a fairly amazing twist of poetic justice, in his claim that God does not really exist as a real person, the atheistic naturalist himself ends up claiming that he himself does not really exist as a real person, (i.e. he ends up denying he is a 'real person' with 'real thoughts'). Yet as Rene Descartes, via his ‘method of doubt’, pointed out, he could doubt the existence of all things save for the fact that he existed as a real person in order to do the doubting in the first place, “As Descartes explained, “we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt….”
Cogito, ergo sum Cogito, ergo sum[a] is a Latin philosophical proposition by René Descartes usually translated into English as “I think, therefore I am”.[b] The phrase originally appeared in French as je pense, donc je suis in his Discourse on the Method, so as to reach a wider audience than Latin would have allowed.[1] It appeared in Latin in his later Principles of Philosophy. As Descartes explained, “we cannot doubt of our existence while we doubt….” A fuller version, articulated by Antoine Léonard Thomas, aptly captures Descartes’s intent: dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum (“I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am”).[c][d] The concept is also sometimes known as the cogito.[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogito,_ergo_sum
And from the conclusion that he could only be certain of the fact that he existed as a real person in order to do the doubting in the first place, Rene Descartes then went on to use that conclusion from his ‘method of doubt’ as a starting point to then argue for the existence of the person of God.
René Descartes (1596—1650) Excerpt: 5. God a. The Causal Arguments At the beginning of the Third Meditation only “I exist” and “I am a thinking thing” are beyond doubt and are, therefore, absolutely certain. From these intuitively grasped, absolutely certain truths, Descartes now goes on to deduce the existence of something other than himself, namely God. https://www.iep.utm.edu/descarte/#SH4a
Dr. Antoine Suarez states the irresolvable dilemma for reductive materialists as such, (paraphrase) “it is impossible for us to be 'persons' experiencing 'now' if we are nothing but particles flowing in space time. Moreover, for us to refer to ourselves as 'persons', we cannot refer to space-time as the ultimate substratum upon which everything exists, but must refer to a Person who is not bound by space time. (In other words) We must refer to God!”
Nothing: God's new Name - Antoine Suarez – video Paraphrased quote: (“it is impossible for us to be 'persons' experiencing 'now' if we are nothing but particles flowing in space time. Moreover, for us to refer to ourselves as 'persons', we cannot refer to space-time as the ultimate substratum upon which everything exists, but must refer to a Person who is not bound by space time. i.e. We must refer to God!”) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOr9QqyaLlA
In short, we cannot hold ourselves to be 'real persons' with 'real thoughts' unless we first hold ourselves to be 'souls' with 'immaterial minds',
“It is because we, (as souls), have a faculty of (immaterial) mind that we are capable of having concepts, thoughts, beliefs,,, things like that.”,,, – J.P. Moreland – Is the Soul Immortal? https://youtu.be/QzbdT0GxAdk?t=209
bornagain77
November 27, 2022
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From an atheist perspective religion could be viewed as a persistent delusion
Maybe, but for one to attribute a delusion to another when they can not justify their own beliefs is extremely ironic. The last thing I want to do is discuss religion since my POV is that ID has nothing to do with a specific religion. However, ID while not pointing to a specific religion does point to the lack of acknowledging a creator as foolish if not stupid which is what an atheist is doing. We do not get any sincere objectors to ID here or anywhere. What we get are mocking and inane comments. Which actually is pointing to oneself as a trivial person. We most assuredly get trivial people commenting here.     There is no such thing as a serious atheist. jerry
November 26, 2022
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Seversky From an atheist perspective religion could be viewed as a persistent delusion – a comforting delusion to be sure, which is why it’s persistent
From an theist perspective atheism could be viewed as a persistent delusion – a comforting delusion to be sure, which is why it’s persistent
What is interesting is the vehemence with which the faithful attack a theory like evolution
What is interesting is the vehemence with which the atheists attack religion using a theory like evolution. ;) PS: Everybody is worshiping something. This is an universal pattern. If is not God then something else will fill that place as the highest value a person could perceive(worship of science or an actor or an footballer or an musician or an politician...or yourself.)whistler
November 26, 2022
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From an atheist perspective religion could be viewed as a persistent delusion - a comforting delusion to be sure, which is why it's persistent - but still what Marx referred to as the opium of the people. And opium is highly addictive. Addicts tell us that giving it up is painful to say the least. What is interesting is the vehemence with which the faithful attack a theory like evolution and especially any suggestion that human beings and the other apes are closely related. What does it matter? If the Christian God is the all-powerful being it is claimed then what is to prevent it from creating life that changes over time or that the centerpiece of creation - human beings - are a branch of the ape family. It looks to me that the way Egnor and his kind bristle at the very suggestion is a form of speciesism, driven by the same bigotry as racism. The same pride that some human beings take in themselves as being somehow better than the rest of the natural order. And isn't Chesterton's argument in part an exercise in "nothing buttery"?Seversky
November 26, 2022
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Jerry So there is doubt. Then the question becomes why didn’t the creator provide a QED proof. No one here wants to address that. Instead this so called religious site rejects the largest religion of the world.
Until yesterday default position was faith in God(we don't discuss which religion is true or false , we discuss the manifestation of faith throughout history ) .Atheism is a malfunction a mind virus that attach to any host who has "pride" . Today "pride" becomes a virtue and not the most venomous act of a human . All the horrors start with pride. Sometime people don't have a clue what a wrong action iswhistler
November 26, 2022
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Perhaps not all who call themselves atheists are consistent atheists, but a consistent atheist would necessarily adhere to the view that the thoughts in his brain are only the result of interactions between charged particles governed by the laws of physics.
There is no such thing as a consistent atheist. There has never been a logical argument for atheism. It is a belief based on assertions. How do I know? No one has ever presented a coherent rational for belief in it. If Stephen Hawkins could not do it, then assume it cannot be done. Several months ago Ross Douthat wrote an article on belief in the New York Times that generated about a 1000 comments against him. Not one was coherent. If readers of The NY Times cannot do it, assume no one can as they will have access to the best sources. Aside: if there are so many who believe in atheism, why? Namely there is no QED proof for a creator which then gives them leeway to not believe. So there is doubt. Then the question becomes why didn’t the creator provide a QED proof. No one here wants to address that. Instead this so called religious site rejects the largest religion of the world.jerry
November 26, 2022
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