Largely brain absent man functions normally

Silver Asiatic: No, the question was "Since the brain consists of entirely different cells years after the event was first recorded in memory, how/why is the memory preserved?" Most adult brain cells last as long as the organism does. Also, people do forget. Silver Asiatic: You responded by stating that you do not retain the same memories of incidents over time. Demonstrably so. Silver Asiatic: This would eliminate any eyewitness testimony you’d give on past events In fact, eye-witness testimony is often unreliable and inconsistent. However, during an incident, you're much more likely to remember someone you know than a stranger. Silver Asiatic: and even the quality of your intellectual work since you would not be able to retain an accurate memory of what you learned years ago. Just because memory is not completely reliable doesn't mean it is completely unreliable. Knowledge that is reinforced is much more persistent in the memory than transient events. Zachriel

Z

Memories are not stored in individual cells, but across the network.

Evidence?

The question was whether people remember facts about events differently when they think about them?

No, the question was "Since the brain consists of entirely different cells years after the event was first recorded in memory, how/why is the memory preserved?" You responded by stating that you do not retain the same memories of incidents over time. This would eliminate any eyewitness testimony you'd give on past events - and even the quality of your intellectual work since you would not be able to retain an accurate memory of what you learned years ago. Silver Asiatic

Silver Asiatic: Memories are stored in cells. When cells die and are replaced over time, the memories disappear. Memories are not stored in individual cells, but across the network. Recalling memories helps reinforce them, including across new cells, however, this process can introduce different colorations, errors, or biases. However, you sidestepped your own claim. The question was whether people remember facts about events differently when they think about them? The answer is yes, and this can result in distorted or false memories. Zachriel

Z

“If you remember something in the context of a new environment and time, or if you are even in a different mood, your memories might integrate the new information.”

I understand your argument. Memories are stored in cells. When cells die and are replaced over time, the memories disappear. So, it's normally not possible for someone to remember something that happened to them 20 years ago since those memory storage cells have disappeared by then. Silver Asiatic

Box It is indeed the biblical view we are immaterial souls. So the brain is just a tool for thinking. in fact the bible never uses the word brain but instead the mind. I think the mind is just a memory machine. So our 'brain" is just a memory machine in contact with our body with our soul meshed to the brain/mind. It makes more sense then having US use our brain for thinking. like there were two of us in our body. Robert Byers

Silver Asiatic: Do you remember facts about events you experienced differently every time you think about them? Human memories are highly flexible, and can be distorted during recall by new information or errors in memory. Bridge & Paller, Neural correlates of reactivation and retrieval-induced distortion, Journal of Neuroscience 2012. "Memories aren’t static,” said the lead author. “If you remember something in the context of a new environment and time, or if you are even in a different mood, your memories might integrate the new information.”

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it’s not the same river and he’s not the same man. — Heraclitus

And, of course, the psyche is constantly in flux. Zachriel

Zach

Memories and psyche are in constant flux

Do you remember facts about events you experienced differently every time you think about them? Silver Asiatic

Silver Asiatic: But have any elements of the memory changed due to the cellular changes? Actually no. Actually, yes. Memories and psyche are in constant flux.

No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man. — Heraclitus

Zachriel

Box @33, I wish you did not put words in my mouth. Mapou

Zach

The ship of Theseus

Slightly different though. All the elements of the ship (brain) have changed so we could debate whether it's the same ship. But have any elements of the memory changed due to the cellular changes? Actually no. The memories remain the same even though it's a new brain, or the brain constructed out of new materials. To say that the memory is in the brain, is to say its in the matter of the brain. Whether we have a new brain or a brain constructed out of new matter would mean where the memories have supposedly been lost and replaced by something new. Silver Asiatic

Silver Asiatic: All the cells in our brain are replaced every 7 to 10 years. The ship of Theseus. Zachriel

All the cells in our brain are replaced every 7 to 10 years. Memory persists through that change. Silver Asiatic

Mapou holds that the brain thinks and memorizes somehow independent of the immaterial soul. In effect, the soul becomes a non-thinking uncomprehending bystander without any control of 'its' thoughts. An extremely unappetizing view. In Mapou's concept of rationality — which he shares with materialists — blind particles in motion are ultimately in control of thoughts. Box

mapou I think you are very wrong. The bible is clear we have a immaterial soul and will think in the afterlife. No brain needed. We do use our brain however i think the brain is simply a memory machine. WE use our memory to think. Yet we are not our memory. We are not a brain. We will not be found in the wires of the brain. Therefore no difference happens to us if we are missing parts of our brain. Unless the memory is affected. Robert Byers

mike1962, although there is definitely a correlation to brain states and memory in this material life, (I never claimed otherwise), as Dr Egnor pointed out, memory clearly is NOT merely, and only, a brain state. Memory and brain state are two different things. Thus, via the law of identity, they cannot be the exact same thing. The logic is rock solid. As to this claim

"Alcohol and drugs can cause “black outs” where memories of recent events while impaired are destroyed. Time itself alters memories. Human memory of past events is notoriously unreliable as the years roll on. Short term memory loss is common as we age (I experience a lot of this these days.)" It seems pretty obvious that the brain has everything to do with one’s memory.

Although there is certainly a correlation, again which I never denied, I certainly disagree that 'the brain has everything to do with one’s memory'. The claim is simply false since there is clearly not an exact one to one correlation. I compare the memory impairment of the brain on the mind, such as what you have just listed, in the same way that a blind person is not able to see while they are in their material body, but they can see when they have a NDE:

“I was in a body, and the only way that I can describe it was a body of energy, or of light. And this body had a form. It had a head, it had arms and it had legs. And it was like it was made out of light. And it was everything that was me. All of my memories, my consciousness, everything.”,,, “And then this vehicle formed itself around me. Vehicle is the only thing, or tube, or something, but it was a mode of transportation that’s for sure! And it formed around me. And there was no one in it with me. I was in it alone. But I knew there were other people ahead of me and behind me. What they were doing I don’t know, but there were people ahead of me and people behind me, but I was alone in my particular conveyance. And I could see out of it. And it went at a tremendously, horrifically, rapid rate of speed. But it wasn’t unpleasant. It was beautiful in fact. I was reclining in this thing, I wasn’t sitting straight up, but I wasn’t lying down either. I was sitting back. And it was just so fast. I can’t even begin to tell you where it went or whatever it was just fast!" – Vicki’s NDE – Blind since birth – could see for first time during her NDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e65KhcCS5-Y Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ring/Ring-Journal%20of%20Near-Death%20Studies_1997-16-101-147-1.pdf

A few more related notes:

‘Afterlife’ feels ‘even more real than real,’ researcher says – Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: “If you use this questionnaire … if the memory is real, it’s richer, and if the memory is recent, it’s richer,” he said. The coma scientists weren’t expecting what the tests revealed. “To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors,” Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. “The difference was so vast,” he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich “as though it was yesterday,” Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ “More real than anything I’ve experienced since. When I came back of course I had 34 operations, and was in the hospital for 13 months. That was real but heaven is more real than that. The emotions and the feelings. The reality of being with people who had preceded me in death.” – Don Piper – “90 Minutes in Heaven,” 10 Years Later – video (2:54 minute mark) https://youtu.be/3LyZoNlKnMM?t=173 Near death, explained? – Mario Beauregard – Apr 21, 2012 Excerpt: The scientific NDE (Near Death Experience) studies performed over the past decades indicate that heightened mental functions can be experienced independently of the body at a time when brain activity is greatly impaired or seemingly absent (such as during cardiac arrest). Some of these studies demonstrate that blind people can have veridical perceptions during OBEs associated with an NDE. Other investigations show that NDEs often result in deep psychological and spiritual changes. These findings strongly challenge the mainstream neuroscientific view that mind and consciousness result solely from brain activity. As we have seen, such a view fails to account for how NDErs can experience—while their hearts are stopped—vivid and complex thoughts and acquire veridical information about objects or events remote from their bodies. NDE studies also suggest that after physical death, mind and consciousness may continue in a transcendent level of reality that normally is not accessible to our senses and awareness. Needless to say, this view is utterly incompatible with the belief of many materialists that the material world is the only reality. http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/

bornagain77

Getting brain damaged can destroy memories. Alcohol and drugs can cause "black outs" where memories of recent events while impaired are destroyed. Time itself alters memories. Human memory of past events is notoriously unreliable as the years roll on. Short term memory loss is common as we age (I experience a lot of this these days.) It seems pretty obvious that the brain has everything to do with one's memory. mike1962

You people actually believe that your memory is not in your brain? This is scary. I would not have believed it if someone had told me. No wonder we don't see eye to eye. Mapou

Box, hmmm Dr. Novella, that explains a lot of the confusion. Michael Egnor deconstructs Novella's argument for memory being merely a brain state here:

Brains on Fire: Dr. Steven Novella Explains, "The Mind Is the Fire of the Brain" - Michael Egnor - December 18, 2014 Excerpt: The difference between a memory and a representation of a memory is obvious. Right now I remember that I have an appointment at noon. I'm writing down "appointment at noon" on my calendar. My memory is my thought that I have an appointment at noon. The representation of my memory is the written note on my calendar. A thought differs from a note. A thought is something I experience; a note is something I write. My memory is a psychological thing. My note is a physical thing. My memory is represented in my note. My memory is not the same thing as my note. A memory is not the same thing as a representation of a memory. I hope that's clear. I'm not sure how I can be clearer. - Michael Egnor is a professor and vice chairman of the department of neurosurgery at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/12/brains_on_fire092151.html

And as with memory, that are many other states of mind that, via the law of identity, prove that the mind is not the same thing as the brain:

Six reasons why you should believe in non-physical minds – podcast and summary (Law of Identity: 6 properties of mind that are not identical to properties of the brain, thus the mind is not the brain) http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2014/01/30/six-reasons-why-you-should-believe-in-non-physical-minds/ The Mind and Materialist Superstition – Six “conditions of mind” that are irreconcilable with materialism: Michael Egnor, professor of neurosurgery at SUNY, Stony Brook Excerpt: Intentionality,,, Qualia,,, Persistence of Self-Identity,,, Restricted Access,,, Incorrigibility,,, Free Will,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2008/11/the_mind_and_materialist_super.html

Of related note, Alvin Plantinga humorously uses the 'law of identity', by imagining he has a beetle body, to prove that the mind is not the same thing as the brain/body.

Alvin Plantinga and the Modal Argument (for the existence of the mind/soul) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOTn_wRwDE0

Verse and Music:

Romans 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. Who Am I - Casting Crowns (w/ lyrics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcqria2wmg

bornagain77

I guess Mapou tries to refer to this article. It's loaded with baseless assumptions. Not worth anybody's time. Box

anthropic, I already gave the evidence. It's called the "grandmother cell". Look it up if you care. Mapou

Mapou 24 "BA77, I have no desire to convince you of anything. I refuse to take anybody by the hand to make them see my point of view. You’re on your own." Translation: Evey-dence? We don't need no stinkin' evey-dence! anthropic

BA77, I have no desire to convince you of anything. I refuse to take anybody by the hand to make them see my point of view. You're on your own. Mapou

Mapou, regardless of how enamored you are with your own personal opinion, as shocking as it may be for you to realize this, we are not as beholden of your unquestioned personal opinion as you seem to be. i.e. to refute something 'scientifically', amongst your peers, would actually require that you reference the experimental evidence accordingly so as to rigorously defend your claim, (as I have done thus far my position and can and will continue to do). bornagain77

BA77 @21:

Mapou, it is not up to those who disagree with you to have to chase down your links. You made the claim. It is up to you to properly reference it and cite it accordingly.

Sure but I refuted your previous comment where you are defending the notion that we don't know where our memories are in the brain. Deal with it. Mapou

Mapou, it is not up to those who disagree with you to have to chase down your links. You made the claim. It is up to you to properly reference it and cite it accordingly. bornagain77

Box:

You share your nutty belief — non-rational blind particles in motion can think — with materialists. It has been pointed out to you again and again why this cannot be the case.

OK, my turn. You don't know what you're talking about. How about that? :-D Mapou

Silver Asiatic, My mistake. Try ("grandmother cell" angelina jolie) without the parentheses. The proper placement of the quotation marks is important. But you could have figured this out on your own, right? Mapou

Even if we forget about what is brain and soul and consciousness etc....isn't one of the fundamental arguments in the chimp to human ancestor story the increasing brain size (despite the fact Neanderthal brains were larger)? So we have a relatively intelligent student who does not differ observationally from those around him with the brain size at least one sixth the size of monkeys and we are supposed to believe that just so story? Dr JDD

SA LOL :) bornagain77

I'm totally out of touch. I get all my world, national and Hollywood info from UD News. I'm disappointed Denyse didn't cover Guy and Jacqui's wedding. :-) Silver Asiatic

Mapou

We know exactly where memories are in the brain

BA asked for some references.

BA77, for starters, Google “grandmother cell angelina jolie”.

I tried Yahoo search and got some stuff on her courage in facing adversity, she 'took the twins shopping', Brad and Angelina reunited their adopted son in Vietnam and some YouTube videos of her "looking great again" and one called "Angelina Jolie's 'Trick Ring' Is Brad Pitt's Great-Grandmother's". That one was by Hollywood Scoop - but I didn't watch it all the way through. I like her dad, Jon Voight and something about her I have always liked also, although she might be a Darwinist of some kind. Brad, I'm not fond of at all - I don't see him as a leading man of any kind, although I liked him in that English film by Guy Ritchie ... ok, I just googled him. Not married to Madonna any more -- Wow!! Look at that -- what an incredible coincidence, seriously, he just got married to Jacqui Ainsley yesterday. Talk about 6 degrees of separation. Mapou to Angelina to Brad to Guy to all this wedding news and photos of Jacqui's dress! Oh yeah, all our memories are in the brain and we know exactly where they are. I'll get to that later. First I need to know Madonna's reaction ... ok, kind of sad. She was "moody and pouty ... but remains quiet following ex-husband Guy Ritchie's lavish wedding to Jacqui Ainsley" Silver Asiatic

Mapou: (...) remember that I’m just a nut on the internet.

You share your nutty belief — non-rational blind particles in motion can think — with materialists. It has been pointed out to you again and again why this cannot be the case. Box

OT:

New Book, Cosmological Implications of Heisenberg's Principle, Argues for Purpose and Design in Nature - Casey Luskin - August 5, 2015 Excerpt: Physicist Stephen Barr explains his view of quantum indeterminacy: "The death of determinism is not the only deep conclusion that follows from the probabilistic nature of quantum theory. An even deeper conclusion that some have drawn is that materialism, as applied to the human mind, is wrong. Eugene Wigner, a Nobel laureate, argued in a famous essay that philosophical materialism is not "logically consistent with present quantum mechanics." And Sir Rudolf Peierls, another leading physicist, maintained that "the premise that you can describe in terms of physics the whole function of a human being . . . including its knowledge, and its consciousness, is untenable." Why does it destroy materialism? Because any material system is subject to the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics. Only once a mind observes (or doesn't observe) some event can you have a definitive answer about whether the event did (or did not) happen. As Barr puts it: "As long as only physical structures and mechanisms are involved, however complex, their behavior is described by equations that yield only probabilities -- and once a mind is involved that can make a rational judgment of fact, and thus come to knowledge, there is certainty. Therefore, such a mind cannot be just a physical structure or mechanism completely describable by the equations of physics." Minds, therefore, cannot be strictly material entities or they too would be subject to such indeterminacy. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/08/new_book_cosmol098321.html podcast - Debating Darwin’s Doubt: Casey Luskin Discusses Prothero, Erwin and Valentine on the Cambrian Explosion http://www.discovery.org/multimedia/audio/2015/08/debating-darwins-doubt-casey-luskin-discusses-prothero-erwin-and-valentine-on-the-cambrian-explosion/

bornagain77

BA77, for starters, Google "grandmother cell angelina jolie". Neuroscientists have been inserting probes in people's brain for ages. Lately, they added MRI to their arsenal. They know precisely where many types of thoughts occur in the brain. Mapou

Byers, Please stop writing this stuff. It's nonsense. We certainly think with both our brain and our spirit. The spirit gives us qualia and gives the brain its many motivations (intelligence is useless and helpless without motivation). The spirit is the conductor and the brain is a tool used by the spirit to think and behave. It tell the brain what to pay attention to. How do I know this? I have deciphered several metaphorical Biblical texts that explain it. For example, the 7-branch menorah of the Book of Zechariah is a metaphor for the seven eyes/spirits of God (consciousness) that go to and fro throughout the earth (brain). The entire book of Revelation is a metaphorical description of the brain and how it works. Soon, I will be publishing the first AI application (a speech recognizer) based on my interpretation of those metaphors. Wait for it and, as always, remember that I'm just a nut on the internet. :-D Mapou

Mapou, it would be helpful if you would actually cite your references for your claims. To further quote Lommel's article:

Interrupting the electrical fields of local neuronal networks in parts of the cortex also disturbs the normal function of the brain, because by localized electrical stimulation of the temporal and parietal lobe during surgery for epilepsy the neurosurgeon and Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation.(15-16) After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories inside the brain. http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm

Moreover, I am not arguing that there is no correlation whatsoever for the mind to the brain (who in their right mind would argue for such a position?), I am merely arguing that the mind has primacy over the brain and that consciousness is not reducible to matter. Which I hold is the proper, even orthodox, framework for a Theist to argue from:

The Case for the Soul - InspiringPhilosophy - video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 The Mind is able to modify the brain. Moreover, ‘dual aspect’ Idealism explains all anomalous evidence of personality changes due to brain injury, whereas physicalism does not, indeed can not, explain mind.

That the mind can exist independently of the brain is verified by millions of NDEs.

Facts about NDEs - video clip on the site Excerpt: In 1982 a Gallup poll estimated that 8 million Americans have had a near-death experience and a more recent study, a US News & World Report in March of 1997, found that 15 million have had the experience. http://www.ndelight.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117&Itemid=63 "A recent analysis of several hundred cases showed that 48% of near-death experiencers reported seeing their physical bodies from a different visual perspective. Many of them also reported witnessing events going on in the vicinity of their body, such as the attempts of medical personnel to resuscitate them (Kelly et al., 2007)." Kelly, E. W., Greyson, B., & Kelly, E. F. (2007). Unusual experiences near death and related phenomena. In E. F. Kelly, E. W. Kelly, A. Crabtree, A. Gauld, M. Grosso, & B. Greyson, Irreducible mind (pp. 367-421). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield. Near death, explained? - Mario Beauregard - Apr 21, 2012 Excerpt: The scientific NDE (Near Death Experience) studies performed over the past decades indicate that heightened mental functions can be experienced independently of the body at a time when brain activity is greatly impaired or seemingly absent (such as during cardiac arrest). Some of these studies demonstrate that blind people can have veridical perceptions during OBEs associated with an NDE. Other investigations show that NDEs often result in deep psychological and spiritual changes. These findings strongly challenge the mainstream neuroscientific view that mind and consciousness result solely from brain activity. As we have seen, such a view fails to account for how NDErs can experience—while their hearts are stopped—vivid and complex thoughts and acquire veridical information about objects or events remote from their bodies. NDE studies also suggest that after physical death, mind and consciousness may continue in a transcendent level of reality that normally is not accessible to our senses and awareness. Needless to say, this view is utterly incompatible with the belief of many materialists that the material world is the only reality. http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/

Of related note:

Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: - 1997 Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining,, Dr. John Freeman, the director of the Johns Hopkins Pediatric Epilepsy Center, said he was dumbfounded at the ability of children to regain speech after losing the half of the brain that is supposedly central to language processing. ''It's fascinating,'' Dr. Freeman said. ''The classic lore is that you can't change language after the age of 2 or 3.'' But Dr. Freeman's group has now removed diseased left hemispheres in more than 20 patients, including three 13-year-olds whose ability to speak transferred to the right side of the brain in much the way that Alex's did.,,, per NY Times

In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study:

"Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." A New Map of How We Think: Top Brain/Bottom Brain (with video) - Oct. 18, 2013 Forget dated ideas about the left and right hemispheres. New research provides a more nuanced view of the brain Excerpt: Who hasn't heard that people are either left-brained or right-brained,,, Except that it isn't. The popular left/right story has no solid basis in science. The brain doesn't work one part at a time, but rather as a single interactive system, with all parts contributing in concert, as neuroscientists have long known. The left brain/right brain story may be the mother of all urban legends: It sounds good and seems to make sense—but just isn't true. (read more here) http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304410204579139423079198270 A.I. Has Grown Up and Left Home - Dec. 19, 2013 Excerpt: some patients with their Broca’s area destroyed can still understand language, due to the immense neuroplasticity of the brain. And language, in turn, is just a part of what we call “thinking.” If we can’t even pin down where the brain processes language, we are a far way from locating that mysterious entity, “consciousness.” That may be because it doesn’t exist in a spot you can point at. http://nautil.us/issue/8/home/ai-has-grown-up-and-left-home Self-awareness in humans is more complex, diffuse than previously thought - August 22, 2012 Excerpt: Self-awareness is defined as being aware of oneself, including one's traits, feelings, and behaviors. Neuroscientists have believed that three brain regions are critical for self-awareness: the insular cortex, the anterior cingulate cortex, and the medial prefrontal cortex. However, a research team led by the University of Iowa has challenged this theory by showing that self-awareness is more a product of a diffuse patchwork of pathways in the brain – including other regions – rather than confined to specific areas. The conclusions came from a rare opportunity to study a person with extensive brain damage to the three regions believed critical for self-awareness. The person, a 57-year-old, college-educated man known as "Patient R," passed all standard tests of self-awareness. He also displayed repeated self-recognition, both when looking in the mirror and when identifying himself in unaltered photographs taken during all periods of his life. "What this research clearly shows is that self-awareness corresponds to a brain process that cannot be localized to a single region of the brain,",,, http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-08-self-awareness-humans-complex-diffuse-previously.html Fallacies of Contemporary Neuroscience: "A Vast Collection of Answers, with No Memory of the Questions" - Michael Egnor - February 20, 2014 Excerpt: [Scruton:] Neuroenvy... consist[s] of a vast collection of answers, with no memory of the questions. And the answers are encased in neurononsense of the following kind: 'The brains of social animals are wired to feel pleasure in the exercise of social dispositions such as grooming and co-operation, and to feel pain when shunned, scolded, or excluded. Neurochemicals such as vasopressin and oxytocin mediate pair-bonding, parent-offspring bonding, and probably also bonding to kith and kin...' (Patricia Churchland). As though we didn't know already that people feel pleasure in grooming and co-operating, and as though it adds anything to say that their brains are 'wired' to this effect, or that 'neurochemicals' might possibly be involved in producing it. This is pseudoscience of the first order, and owes what scant plausibility it possesses to the fact that it simply repeats the matter that it fails to explain. It perfectly illustrates the prevailing academic disorder, which is the loss of questions. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/02/fallacies_of_co082351.html ‘Brain Waves’ Challenge Area-Specific View of Brain Activity – Mar. 20, 2013 Excerpt: Our understanding of brain activity has traditionally been linked to brain areas – when we speak, the speech area of the brain is active. New research by an international team of psychologists led by David Alexander and Cees van Leeuwen (KU Leuven – University of Leuven) shows that this view may be overly rigid. The entire cortex, not just the area responsible for a certain function, is activated when a given task is initiated. Furthermore, activity occurs in a pattern: waves of activity roll from one side of the brain to the other.,,, ,,,the psychologists explore uncharted territory: “We are examining the activity in the cerebral cortex as a whole. The brain is a non-stop, always-active system. When we perceive something, the information does not end up in a specific part of our brain. Rather, it is added to the brain’s existing activity. If we measure the electrochemical activity of the whole cortex, we find wave-like patterns. This shows that brain activity is not local but rather that activity constantly moves from one part of the brain to another. The local activity in the Brodmann areas only appears when you average over many such waves.” Each activity wave in the cerebral cortex is unique. “When someone repeats the same action, such as drumming their fingers, the motor centre in the brain is stimulated. But with each individual action, you still get a different wave across the cortex as a whole.,,, http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130320115111.htm

bornagain77

Amen. Its the soul where we think. Our brain is just a mechanical operation between the soul and the body. We are not a product of the wiring. Who thought we were? I don't know what part of the inner skull stuff he is missing but as long as his memory is not affected its all right. in fact I wonder how hos memory is not since its spread around. Robert Byers

Guys, most of the brain consists of glial cells which provide a gelatinous substrate in which neurons can grow their axons and dendrite. The idea being espoused by BA77 and some others that the mind is all spirit/soul and the brain is not needed for thinking is pure nonsense. Quoting BA77:

A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.

This is not true. We know exactly where memories are in the brain and we can pinpoint exactly where certain very specific memories are processed. Mapou

Of related interest:

A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body. http://www.nderf.org/vonlommel_skeptic_response.htm The Mystery of Perception During Near Death Experiences - Pim van Lommel - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avyUsPgIuQ0

Moreover, in support of the Pim van Lommel's suggestion that memories/information are not holistically stored in the brain, extremely detailed panoramic life reviews are common features of many deep Near Death Experiences:

Life After Life - Raymond Moody - Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z56u4wMxNlg

Moreover, in further support of Lommel's contention, in quantum mechanics it is the information that is primarily 'conserved', not the matter and/or energy that is primarily conserved:

Will Human Teleportation Ever Be Possible? As experiments in relocating particles advance, will we be able to say, "Beam me up, Scotty" one day soon? By Corey S. Powell - Monday, June 16, 2014 Excerpt: Note a fascinating common thread through all these possibilities. Whether you regard yourself as a pile of atoms, a DNA sequence, a series of sensory inputs or an elaborate computer file, in all of these interpretations you are nothing but a stack of data. According to the principle of unitarity, quantum information is never lost. Put them together, and those two statements lead to a staggering corollary: At the most fundamental level, the laws of physics say you are immortal. http://discovermagazine.com/2014/julyaug/20-the-ups-and-downs-of-teleportation

As well, the memories of people who have had deep Near Death Experiences are found to be 'more real than real':

'Afterlife' feels 'even more real than real,' researcher says - Wed April 10, 2013 Excerpt: "If you use this questionnaire ... if the memory is real, it's richer, and if the memory is recent, it's richer," he said. The coma scientists weren't expecting what the tests revealed. "To our surprise, NDEs were much richer than any imagined event or any real event of these coma survivors," Laureys reported. The memories of these experiences beat all other memories, hands down, for their vivid sense of reality. "The difference was so vast," he said with a sense of astonishment. Even if the patient had the experience a long time ago, its memory was as rich "as though it was yesterday," Laureys said. http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/09/health/belgium-near-death-experiences/ "More real than anything I've experienced since. When I came back of course I had 34 operations, and was in the hospital for 13 months. That was real but heaven is more real than that. The emotions and the feelings. The reality of being with people who had preceded me in death." - Don Piper - "90 Minutes in Heaven," 10 Years Later - video (2:54 minute mark) https://youtu.be/3LyZoNlKnMM?t=173

Verses and Music:

Luke 23:42-43 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Isaiah 49: 15-16 ,,,I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; Deliverer - MattMaher https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA1nlv3Z9_k

bornagain77

ppolish: White matter is junk matter.

Indeed. It will be interesting to see what story they come up with. "Less than 5% brain tissue by volume" does that fit in the skull of a mouse? I mean, is all the evolutionary fuzz about skull sizes just the usual BS?

Donald R. Forsdyke : Lorber's findings met much skepticism. But recently there have been two independent confirmations, suggesting Lorber should not have been so lightly dismissed. Under the title, “Brain of a white-collar worker,” French neurologists (Feuillet et al., 2007) showed “massive ventricular enlargement” in the brain scan of a civil servant who had an IQ in the low normal range and came to them with relatively mild neurological symptoms that responded to treatment. Shortly thereafter, neurosurgeons in Brazil reported a similar case (de Oliviera et al., 2012).

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White matter is junk matter. ppolish

Jim Smith: In hydrocephalus the brain is not missing it is just compressed. When the fluid pressure is released the brain springs back.

Sure, nothing to see here — move along people. The brain always springs back ...

“I can’t say whether the mathematics student has a brain weighing 50 grams or 150 grams, but it’s clear that it is nowhere near the normal 1.5 kilograms,” asserts Lorber

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Well there ya go then. Evolutiondidit. An all seeing God would have compressed our brains normally, sort of like DNA packing. Evolution otoh can pack DNA (by accident) but not give us compact brains (by accident). Mung

In hydrocephalus the brain is not missing it is just compressed. When the fluid pressure is released the brain springs back. I don't have the reference, you can google the first sentence to get it:

It is perhaps significant that many of the instances in which gross enlargement of cerebral ventricles is compatible with normal life are cases where the condition develops slowly. Gross surgical lesions in rat brains are known to inflict severe functional disruption, but if the same damage is done bit by bit over a long period of time, the dysfunction can be minimal. Just as the rat brains appear to cope with a stepwise reduction of available hardware, so too do the human brains in some cases of hydrocephalus. ... A group of researchers based at the New York University Medical Center has assembled a picture of the histological changes associated with hydrocephalus through experimental induction of the condition in cats. The group also observed the changes in tissue structure following the implantation of a shunt, the experimental equivalent to the normal treatment of hydrocephalus in humans. Speaking for the group, Fred Epstein says the following: "Hydrocephalus is principally a disease of the white matter. As the ventricles enlarge the layers of fibres above them begin to be stretched and very quickly they are disrupted, with the axons and the myelin sheaths surrounding them breaking down. Even in severe and extended hydrocephalus, however, the nerve cells in the gray matter were remarkably spared, though eventually there began to be a loss here too." The sparing of the gray matter even in severe hydrocephalus could go some way to explaining the remarkable retention of many normal functions in severely affected individuals. Crucial to the approach to treatment of hydrocephalus is the brain's ability to recuperate following the release of fluid pressure when a shunt is implanted. One of the canons of neurobiology is that, once damaged, cells in the central nervous system are unable to repair themselves. Does Lorber's work dent this hallowed concept too? "When you implant a shunt in a young hydrocephalic child you often see complete restoration of overall brain structure, even in cases where initially there is no detectable mantle,"claims Lorber. "There must be true regeneration of brain substance in some sense, but I'm not necessarily saying that nerve cells regenerate,"he says cautiously; "I don't think anyone knows fully about that." What, then, is happening when a hydrocephalic brain rebounds from being a thin layer lining a fluid-filled cranium to become an apparently normal structure when released from hydrostatic pressure? According to Epstein and on the basis of his colleagues' observations on experimental cats, the term rebound aptly describes the reconstitution process, with stretched fibres shortening, thus diminishing the previously expanded ventricular space. Within a short time scar tissue forms, constructed from the glial cells that pack between the nerve cells. "The reconstitution of the mantle,"report Epstein and his colleagues, "does not result in the reformation of lost elements, but rather in the formation of aglial scar and possibly a return to function of the remaining elements."

White matter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

White matter, long thought to be passive tissue, actively affects how the brain learns and dysfunctions. Although gray matter (composed of neurons) does the brain's thinking and calculating, white matter (composed of myelin-coated axons) controls the signals that neurons share, coordinating how well brain regions work together.[2]

Jim Smith

"There's a young student at this university," says [professor] Lorber, "who has an IQ of 126, has gained a first-class honors degree in mathematics, and is socially completely normal. And yet the boy has virtually no brain." "I can't say whether the mathematics student has a brain weighing 50 grams or 150 grams, but it's clear that it is nowhere near the normal 1.5 kilograms," asserts Lorber, "and much of the brain he does have is in the more from primitive deep structures that are relatively spared in hydrocephalus". [Lorber — 1980]

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