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Neuroscientist: Consciousness is theology, not neurology

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From neurologist Robert J. Burton at Nautilus:

As a fledgling neurologist, I’d already seen a wide variety of strange mental states arising out of physical diseases. But on this particular day, I couldn’t wrap my mind around a gene mutation generating an isolated feeling of being spied on by the FBI. How could a localized excess of amino acids in a segment of DNA be transformed into paranoia?

Though I didn’t know it at the time, I had run headlong into the “hard problem of consciousness,” the enigma of how physical brain mechanisms create purely subjective mental states. In the subsequent 50 years, what was once fodder for neurologists’ late night speculations has mushroomed into the pre-eminent question in the philosophy of mind. As an intellectual challenge, there is no equal to wondering how subatomic particles, mindless cells, synapses, and neurotransmitters create the experience of red, the beauty of a sunset, the euphoria of lust, the transcendence of music, or in this case, intractable paranoia. More.

He adds, “Slowly, and with much resistance, it’s dawned on me that the pursuit of the nature of consciousness, no matter how cleverly couched in scientific language, is more like metaphysics and theology. It is driven by the same urges that made us dream up gods and demons, souls and afterlife.”

Another way of looking at the question would be, is the problem one that science can resolve? Isn’t asking about the nature of consciousness a bit like asking whether mathematics represents something real or “Did mathematics evolve?” Such questions are not necessarily misconceptions but the tools of science are not helpful for addressing them.

See also: Would we give up naturalism to solve the hard problem of consciousness?

Comments
J-Mac @30:
BTW: During my research on consciousness, I came across some claims that Holy Spirit is not a person or God or a god, but rather power that has no personal qualities. What do you make of that? I have to admit that I have always been confused about Holy Spirit-as God or a god or spirit like when the person dies and the spirit returns to God meaning either a soul or a energy or something else like a quantum state of a being….
This is heavy stuff. But I appreciate you have shared these questions here. However, since it's so late here where I am now, I will try to comment on this tomorrow (Dios mediante). But I should let you know that the source of information I will use is also available to you: the Christian Scriptures. Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide. Solus Christus. Sola Gratia. Soli Deo Gloria.Dionisio
June 22, 2017
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J-Mac @30: "Do you think that Jesus really died? I mean really died…" That's a good question. I don't think so, I believe it, because it's written in the Christian Scriptures, which I believe are truly inspired by God Himself. So far nobody has been able to prove it otherwise, though many have tried to discredit it through the years. There's a difference between "thinking" and "believing". According to the Christian Scriptures Jesus Christ was fully human while being fully divine. As a human being He suffered physical death after suffering physical and emotional pain from cruel torture and abandonment by His disciples, though in His divine condition He did it all in divine obedience. When someone asks if bad things can happen to good people, my response is that it only happened once in History and it was by the will of the victim because it was fulfilling a prophesy that He himself had revealed to the ancient prophets. He made us to be good (Imago Dei) but also gave us free will to do things our way. That's what we chose. Jesus human death was required by God in order to pay for our salvation from the fate we had chosen ourselves. We freely chose to be away from God. God graciously offers a way for us to reconcile with Him and be in His glorious presence eternally. But it's not imposed on anybody. It's simply offered by grace. It's an underserved favor. It's up to us to take it or leave it, though there are Scriptural passages that seem to imply that God ultimately decides who will believe and who won't. However, I believe we don't understand well that "mechanism" hence we should not be anxious by that. Don't take my word at face value. Test it, verify it, read the Scriptures yourself. Test everything and hold what is good.Dionisio
June 22, 2017
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Dionisio@19 I'm confused about what you are trying to convey... I have a question for you: Do you think that Jesus really died? I mean really died... BTW: During my research on consciousness, I came across some claims that Holy Spirit is not a person or God or a god, but rather power that has no personal qualities. What do you make of that? I have to admit that I have always been confused about Holy Spirit-as God or a god or spirit like when the person dies and the spirit returns to God meaning either a soul or a energy or something else like a quantum state of a being....J-Mac
June 22, 2017
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JDH, I don't think you watch this video carefully enough... It talks about exactly what you were wondering about... Pay special attention at 12 min mark and on! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxQK1WDYI_kJ-Mac
June 22, 2017
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1. At the target site, there had to be an exact copy already existing of the subject A’s fundamental building blocks, just in a superposition state that did not match the state of A. Do you mean subarticles entangled with the sending chamber? 2. There had to be a light signal between the source site and the target site to communicate the Bell measurements. I'm not sure what you mean? Are you talking about the interaction between the scanning devise and the "sending chamber"? 3. Modern neurology points to the theory that such things like memory are non-local in the brain. This implies that each brain state depends upon subtle variations in the whole. This is inherently chaotic. For example if I use Base64 encryption to send a message to you. Since it is a serial, and local encryption method, if a few bits get mess up during transmission – you still have most of the message intact, and only the part where the transmission error occurred not correct. OTOH if I use SHA1 which is a non-local encryption method, and a small amount of bits get messed up – you have no possible way to recover ANY of the encrypted message. From point 3 – if you want to transmit a brain you don’t get to be “close” with a few errors. You must transmit every bit perfectly. Pick a transmission rate. How about 17 terahertz. At this ridiculous frequency you could receive 10^28in approximately ( not worrying about factors of 2pi) 10^28/17* 10^12 s-1 = around 10^16 seconds or 3.1 *10^8 years. Not exactly teleportation. Non-locality is just one of the theories... As I said earlier, there are many unknowns...the math still allows QT.J-Mac
June 22, 2017
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JDH, Thanks for this additional info. I'll review it on the weekend. Regarding human quantum teleportation, there is more to it than just maintaining quantum states of subparticles...much more... What I mean by it is that mathematically QT is still possible...unless someone has come up with that recently which I doubt...That was my main point. I don't think humans will ever be able to come up with the technology to teleport humans, because nobody knows what dark energy is, which is definitely part of us...but never say never... I have elaborated more on this here: http://theskepticalzone.com/wp/how-did-the-designergod-do-it/J-Mac
June 22, 2017
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http://www.economist.com/news/science-brief/21664060-final-brief-our-series-looks-most-profound-scientific-mystery-all-one https://www.researchgate.net/topic/Consciousness https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11245-017-9459-7 https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs11245-017-9459-7.pdf https://www.newscientist.com/round-up/consciousness/ http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0893608016301800Dionisio
June 20, 2017
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Seversky: What is the best theistic theory of the nature of consciousness and how it arose Sometimes a question doesn't provide enough context. What kind of consciousness? Human? Animal? Plant? Primeval? Universal? Sometimes I get that people don't want to read the right books in order to formulate a good question on consciousness which is the most vast subject imaginable. OK so I'm going to throw one out that I just read and it is one of the most astounding books EVER on the topic. It is called "When The Impossible Happens" by Stanislav Grof Ph.D, M.D. founder with Abraham Maslow of the International Transpersonal Psychology Association. I'm going to put it to you right now, if you are a materialist or fundamentalist of any kind, you may be adverse to to reading about the astounding material from studies of non-ordinary states of consciousness. This book can loosely be described as Grof's autobiography but like everything else Grof comes with it is not easily categorized. It has garnered the requisite condemnation by materialists at RationalWiki as has the author himself. You will be retold of collaborations and meeting with many famous people like Joseph Campbell, Aldous Huxley, Carl Sagan and many others interested in ultimate questions. Amazon page: https://www.amazon.com/When-Impossible-Happens-Adventures-Non-Ordinary/dp/159179420X/ref=pd_sbs_14_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=159179420X&pd_rd_r=J8N5GB4KBX24NN9S75M2&pd_rd_w=zr7Z2&pd_rd_wg=Zr0PR&psc=1&refRID=J8N5GB4KBX24NN9S75M2groovamos
June 20, 2017
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If quantum teleportation of human body is possible, as it so far appears to be . . .
I'm with JDH on this one. The current state of the science is definitely not that teleportation of a human is possible. Quite the contrary. I would love it if teleportation were possible, being a big Star Trek fan and all. It would open up very interesting possibilities. However, there is serious question about whether it is possible -- never mind the technology gap, whether it is possible, even in principle. The Uncertainty Principle would seem to have much to say in this regard. Hopefully there is a way to overcome it . . .Eric Anderson
June 20, 2017
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Seversky @12:
I don’t know of one as yet. I don’t know of a good naturalistic theory of what consciousness is as yet either. What is the best theistic theory of the nature of consciousness and how it arose.
Well-stated, frank admission. And good question. This is a deep and difficult problem and one without easy answers. In my view, that cautionary assessment also extends to theistic explanations. One of these days maybe I'll have time for an OP on this, but suffice it for now, there are a couple of theistic alternatives. One is that consciousness or intelligence has always existed. One is that it was created. There are some scriptural hints at the former, as well as the latter. Most theists, at least of the Judeo-Christian variety, probably hold to the latter. Neither is a particularly compelling explanation, although one can certainly argue that both are much better than anything a purely-materialistic account can provide. In my estimation, this is a reasonable argument, given, among other things, our experience with things like information that are not physical-dependent and that can transcend a particular physical state. In any case, I would note for the theists who are quick to dismiss the idea of consciousness arising from material causes that a careful, nuanced approach is required from the theistic position. Specifically, if one takes the view that deity created humans, with their fundamental attributes, including a brain that gives rise to cognition, intelligence, and consciousness, then one must accept the idea that a particular state of matter can give rise to such things, including consciousness. One can still argue, rightly so in my estimation, that a capable and ingenious creator is a better explanation for how this specific configuration of matter came into being than a long series of mutations or other chance particle collisions. But that is a different question from whether consciousness can arise from a particular state of matter. The alternative is to take the position that consciousness, intelligence, awareness, our sense of "self", exist apart from matter in an immaterial way. This would seem to be more reasonable, based on the inherent limitations we see in matter and, again, based on various experiences that could be cited (everything from an analysis of these attributes to near-death experiences and so on). In my view, based on the overall weight of the evidence, the dualistic nature of humans and the existence of an immaterial reality is the most reasonable scenario. However, we must acknowledge at present that this is more of an inference about the existence of an immaterial reality, than an explanation of how such an immaterial reality came into being.Eric Anderson
June 20, 2017
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JDH:
Pick a transmission rate. How about 17 terahertz. At this ridiculous frequency you could receive 10^28in approximately ( not worrying about factors of 2pi) 10^28/17* 10^12 s-1 = around 10^16 seconds or 3.1 *10^8 years. Not exactly teleportation.
The best combination of teleportation and a time machine! You get teleported into the distant future! To bad there's no way back.Latemarch
June 19, 2017
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Hi J-Mac so 3 quick points about the possibility of quantum teleportation. In the videos you told me to watch there were two things necessary to do teleportation. 1. At the target site, there had to be an exact copy already existing of the subject A's fundamental building blocks, just in a superposition state that did not match the state of A. 2. There had to be a light signal between the source site and the target site to communicate the Bell measurements. 3. Modern neurology points to the theory that such things like memory are non-local in the brain. This implies that each brain state depends upon subtle variations in the whole. This is inherently chaotic. For example if I use Base64 encryption to send a message to you. Since it is a serial, and local encryption method, if a few bits get mess up during transmission - you still have most of the message intact, and only the part where the transmission error occurred not correct. OTOH if I use SHA1 which is a non-local encryption method, and a small amount of bits get messed up - you have no possible way to recover ANY of the encrypted message. From point 3 - if you want to transmit a brain you don't get to be "close" with a few errors. You must transmit every bit perfectly. Pick a transmission rate. How about 17 terahertz. At this ridiculous frequency you could receive 10^28in approximately ( not worrying about factors of 2pi) 10^28/17* 10^12 s-1 = around 10^16 seconds or 3.1 *10^8 years. Not exactly teleportation.JDH
June 19, 2017
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Hey J-Mac - Watched all three videos. Don't see anything in the videos that contradicts my assessment. It looked to me like people who dream of teleportation on the order of what a lifeforms is like have not dealt with the "sheer amount of quantum information that has to be simultaneously known" problem. Please point me to any original research where a person does a thorough job of analyzing how much information needs to be sent to the teleportation place, and then estimates how close the life sized object would be. I don't think that person would find teleportation possible.JDH
June 19, 2017
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J-Mac @16:
Dionisio @15 Can you elaborate on this verse? I have to admit that I either don’t understand it or you have more insight into it probably because of your better understanding of the bible… For example: Are you suggesting this verse relates to consciousness in some way? What’s the ultimate reality in your view?
Basically Christ is the creator of everything that is, including you, me, prince Buddha, etc. That includes our consciousness. That's the ultimate reality. Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries
The term “Word” (Greek logos) designates God the Son with respect to His deity; “Jesus” and “Christ” refer to His incarnation and saving work. During the first three centuries, doctrines of the Person of Christ focused intensely on His position as the Logos. In Greek philosophy, the Logos was “reason” or “logic” as an abstract force that brought order and harmony to the universe. But in John’s writings such qualities of the Logos are gathered in the Person of Christ. In Neo-Platonic philosophy and the Gnostic heresy (second and third centuries a.d.), the Logos was seen as one of many intermediate powers between God and the world. Such notions are far removed from the simplicity of John’s Gospel. In this verse the Word is expressly affirmed to be God. The Word existed already “in the beginning” (a clear reference to the opening words of the Bible), which is a way of denoting the eternity that is unique to God. John states clearly, “the Word was God.” Some have observed that the word translated “God” here has no definite article, and argued on this basis that it means “a god” rather than “God.” This is a misunderstanding; the article is omitted because of the word order in the Greek sentence (the predicate “God” has been placed first for emphasis). The New Testament never endorses the idea of “a god,” an expression that implies polytheism and is in sharp conflict with the consistent monotheism of the Bible. In the New Testament, the Greek word for “God” occurs often without the definite article, depending on the requirements of Greek grammar. That “the Word was with God,” indicates a distinction of Persons within the unity of the Godhead. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not successive forms of appearance of one Person, but are eternal Persons present from “the beginning” (v. 2). “With” suggests a relationship of close personal intimacy. See “One and Three: The Trinity” at Is. 44:6. All things were made through him. This verse also emphasizes the deity of the Word, since creation belongs to God alone. See also v. 10; Col. 1:16–17; “God the Creator” at Ps. 148:5.
Dionisio
June 18, 2017
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JDH @17 Thanks. I'm on my way out, so I'll review your comment later today or tomorrow... In the meantime, have a look at these videos. Hopefully it is what you are looking for... ;-) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAaHHGHuy1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxQK1WDYI_k&t=31s and maybe this one as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owPC60Ue0BEJ-Mac
June 18, 2017
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J-Mac @8 said:
If quantum teleportation of human body is possible, as it so far appears to be...
Despite this idea for human body teleportation being also hawked by Brian Greene ( whose books I have thoroughly enjoyed ) I must consider the possibility of quantum teleportation of the human body as one of the most questionable speculations of all time. I fully admit I have not done a complete mathematical proof of this. Maybe I am even easily shown to be wrong. This quote from a 2012 popsci article on the subject makes me think I am correct in my speculation.
Now all we have to do is figure out is how to build several of these in series so they can actually pass information from one to the other. To do that, we only have to somehow force these quantum states to exist for longer than the hundred microseconds or so that they last now before degrading. Sounds easy enough.
Please remember that we live in the age of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Remember that on the quantum scale everything obeys ?x * ?p >= h-bar/2. Ok, why is that significant. Because spatial and momentum measurement are just two example of conjugate variables. Another set of conjugate variables is Energy and Time. In other words ?E * ?t >= h-bar/2. In our theoretical story of quantum teleportation, ?t must correspond to how "simultaneous" we consider the measurement of distinct particles taking. This states that if we restrict our measurement to an interval of ?t which is very short on the quantum scale we will not be able to correctly measure the energy of the particle in question. In the proposed quantum teleportation of the human body, no matter how the tightly coupled particles are set up, it must provide us the exact energy, of roughly 10^28 particles (http://education.jlab.org/qa/mathatom_04.html) simultaneously. It is my opinion that this is not just a technological problem. I would bet that any consideration of this would quickly run up against Heisenberg enforced limits. Again, I am open to being shown that this is mathematically not correct. I just doubt it.JDH
June 18, 2017
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Dionisio @15 Can you elaborate on this verse? I have to admit that I either don't understand it or you have more insight into it probably because of your better understanding of the bible... For example: Are you suggesting this verse relates to consciousness in some way? What's the ultimate reality in your view?J-Mac
June 18, 2017
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I like science: math, physics, biology. I enjoy biology. But science can't prove or disprove this what I believe: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not any thing made that was made." John 1:1-3 (ESV) BTW, consciousness is included in that ultimate reality.Dionisio
June 17, 2017
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J-Mac @13: "[...] it sure has over-evolved beyond what’s necessary for the survival…" They can't respond the challenge presented by GP with regard to the huge jump of functional specified information in proteins, so what are they doing speculating about the origin of consciousness? They don't have a clue about making a single cell just theoretically, so what are they doing speculating about the origin of consciousness? They write lots of nonsense about the origin of multicellular biological systems, so what are they doing speculating about the origin of consciousness? Genetic or epigenetic alterations in bacteria produce different bacteria. Bacteria remain bacteria. So what are they doing speculating about the origin of consciousness? Developmental alterations in the cranial shape/size of Darwin's finches produce different finches. Birds remain birds. So what are they doing speculating about the origin of consciousness?Dionisio
June 17, 2017
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Seversky, I don’t know of one as yet. I don’t know of a good naturalistic theory of what consciousness is as yet either. What is the best theistic theory of the nature of consciousness and how it arose If consciousness evolved, it sure has over-evolved beyond what's necessary for the survival... To me, the very fact that we are conscious enough in order to search for the satisfying answers about the nature of consciousness , tells me that consciousness is not a product of mindless processes...J-Mac
June 17, 2017
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Truth Will Set You Free @ 2
Seversky @ 1: Thanks for sharing that information. In your opinion, what is the best naturalistic theory for how consciousness arose in life?
I don't know of one as yet. I don't know of a good naturalistic theory of what consciousness is as yet either. What is the best theistic theory of the nature of consciousness and how it aroseSeversky
June 17, 2017
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Dionisio, Where does that quantum information come from? IOW, where was it and what was it doing before it started to govern the specific arrangement of particles that conform each human body? Are you familiar with the QIC law? The universe is all QI plus dark energy and matter... When does it start to govern the specific arrangement of particles that conform each human body? During development? Good Q. At conception... I would think How does that happen? When 2 pure quantum states; mother's and father's begin to interact.. Can you explain this? When Adam was created out of the "dust of the earth", do you think he retained the quantum state arrangement of the particles he was formed from? Or were his particles rearranged to from an new quantum state? How about Eve? Did she retain Adam's quantum state; the quantum state of his rib? Or was her quantum state rearranged? Remember, that according to QIC theorem, quantum information can't be created or destroyed. Thanks. No problemo... I hope you are not satisfied with my answers... ;-)J-Mac
June 17, 2017
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J-Mac @8:
[...] our consciousness is nothing else but quantum information that governs the specific arrangement of particles… [...] According to the quantum information conservation, quantum information can’t be created or destroyed…
That's very interesting. Where does that quantum information come from? IOW, where was it and what was it doing before it started to govern the specific arrangement of particles that conform each human body? When does it start to govern the specific arrangement of particles that conform each human body? During development? How does that happen? What state of affairs leads to such an event? Can somebody explain this? Thanks.Dionisio
June 17, 2017
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Another thing that should be seriously considered when it comes to consciousness, and even life itself, is dark energy, as well as dark matter. While nobody really knows what dark energy and dark matter are, even though they have not been detected, scientists have no doubt they exist... If current calculations are correct, about 95% (and counting) of the observable universe is filled with stuff nobody knows what it is and yet it's there... Since dark energy permeates all of space, including us, who says that it is not involved in the creation of consciousness or conscious experience? After all dark energy is responsible for the expansion and acceleration of the universe; due to that time and space are constantly being created...well...that is if time is not an elusion...J-Mac
June 17, 2017
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If quantum teleportation of human body is possible, as it so far appears to be, that would mean consciousness is nothing else but a specific arrangement of subparticles that form both our bodies and consciousness... While still in theory, this would mean that we could drop the body we posses now and take on another human body made of different particles as long as the arrangement of them would remain the same...and have the same conscious experience... So, if true, that would mean that our consciousness is nothing else but quantum information that governs the specific arrangement of particles... One question remains though: what happens to the quantum information the governs the subparticles that form our bodies and our consciousness when we die? According to the quantum information conservation, quantum information can't be created or destroyed... However, what is the quantum information worth without the "processor of that information" as our brain appears to be? If our brain is disabled, we are not conscious even if quantum information is not affected...J-Mac
June 17, 2017
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LocalMinimum @ 6 I stole it first. I paraphrased an old joke.Charles
June 17, 2017
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Charles @ 4: An analogy worth stealing.LocalMinimum
June 17, 2017
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... none of us seriously doubt that consciousness arises from discrete brain mechanisms.
No doubt indeed, as it is impossible even in principle.Origenes
June 17, 2017
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http://nautil.us/issue/49/the-absurd/when-neurology-becomes-theology "By observing both the effects of localized and generalized brain insults such as anoxia and anesthesia, none of us seriously doubt that consciousness arises from discrete brain mechanisms."
There is the author's subconscious bias/presumption in action. Rather than "arises", "correlates" is the strongest claim the evidence supports, and correlation is neither cause nor effect. "arises" is pure presumptive speculation. They are like drunks, who having dropped their carkeys in a dark parking lot, search instead under street lights where the light is better. Until they start looking where the evidence is (rather than isn't), they are doomed to aimless wandering in the miasma of their unsupported theories.Charles
June 17, 2017
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Sev: "constructing a materialist account of consciousness is proving to be extremely hard" If by "extremely hard" you mean "impossible even in principle," then you are correct.Barry Arrington
June 17, 2017
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