(Off Topic) Antievolution.org – The Ultimate Hypocrites

DonaldM There's great fun to be had in flame wars. All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy! Check this out: Official Uncommon Pissant Discussion Thread 177 comments and not one point made or conceded, not a single opinion swayed Tell me again what's the upside of letting trolls run amok? Other than the entertainment value of course. But to be quite frank I'd rather watch them from a distance instead of having them underfoot stinking up the joint. DaveScot

"I'm not a fatalist. But even if I were, what could I do about it?" --Emo Philips watchmaker

John D: Thanks for your responses. I don't fully agree, especially regarding determinism, but that's okay...I probably had no choice but to say that! ;-) DonaldM

"Ben Z, you do realize that Antony Flew has since said that he followed the evidence and: “I am myself delighted to be assured by biological-scientist friends that protobiologists are now well able to produce theories of the evolution of the first living matter and that several of these theories are consistent with all the so-far-confirmed scientific evidence.” - Antony Flew Replies (The Open Society, Vol. 78, No.1, Autumn 2005) So since Flew believes that if you follow the evidence, it will lead you to Darwinism, are you saying that everybody else should? I thought you supported ID? I’m confused." Why did you start off by assuming I already knew and then show me? (sarcasm). I hadn't seen that particular quote, but a basic web-search of Flew shows all of his recent happenings... yes, I already knew the gist of things. Flew is still doing what I said others should follow him in doing: following the evidence. Flew is, as far as I can tell, still a deist who sees some sort of design in the universe (and understands it doens't have to make him a theist). Ben Z

I agree I am little heavy on the determinist (genetic) side but so was Einstein. He was no dummy in my book. Neither were Gilbert and Sullivan. Thanks for the comment. John Davison

John Davison - You are describing determinism. The concept that we have no free will, but every choice is the sum of the factors that defines us. Thunar

DonaldM That is the whole point. Apparently they can't. Does anyone think Dawkins will ever be convinced that he is wrong about everything he has ever written? He is you know, no question about it. He is the quintessential atheist mystic. He also has an enormous ego which he was probably born with. He may have been molested by an Anglican priest as a young man too but his basic problem is genetic I am sure. The man loathes any form of religious perspective. He is a helpless victim of his fate. We all are. Some of us are luckier than others. I happen to be great fan of Einstein and I accept what he has said above. It agrees with everything we see going on around us in this hideous debate, a debate that would never exist if it were not so personal. I also happen to think that most evolutionists have tended to come from what I call the soft sciences of natural history, ethology and ecology. It is hard to find an experimental embryologist who would call himself a Darwinian evolutionist. Another thing is the obvious literary talent of many of the primary Darwinian luminaries like Mayr, Gould and Dawkins. They are great science fiction writers but second rate scientists. Most of them never asked a question or did an experiment in their entire lives and spent nearly all their professional lives secure in their endowed chairs at some of our most distinguished institutions, Harvard, Oxford and Cornell for example. Dobzhansky was the only really experimental Darwinian of the lot. How he remained a Darwinian escapes me as he was instrumental in its downfall. The remarkable thing is that so many geneticists remain staunch Darwinians. Sometimes I think they just never got over Mendelism which has nothing to do with evolution either. There is a whole new kind of genetics that has operated over evolutionary time which somehow guided the chromosomes along a route that led from the simple to the complex in apparent violation of eveything we know from the inanimate world. The main problem is the asumption that evolution had an identifiable external cause. It is only natural to expect to find such a cause but the simple truth is that it probably never existed. Did an identifiable cause ever exist that caused Mendeleeef's Periodic Table of the Elements or any of mathematics? Not that I know of. We observe a created world in which chance played an insignificant role. I don't expect many to agree with me but that is my conviction at present. I will change as it becomes necessary I am sure. I doubt the Darwinians are capable of change. I see no sign of it. "Every boy and every girl, That is born into the world alive, Is either a little liberal, Or a little conservative." Gilbert and Sullivan, Iolanthe We are all victims. John Davison

John Davison writes:

The real tragedy is that they can’t help themselves because, like everything else in this world, they too were “prescribed” to act as they do. Einstein, as usual, put his finger right on it as follows: “Our actions should be based on the ever-present awareness that human beings, in their thinking, feeling, and acting are not free but are just as causally bound as the stars in their motion.” Statement before the Spinoza Society of America, September 22, 1932.

If they are acting as they do by prescription, and if you are as well (and I suppose I am even in writing this), then what good is having any discussion or debate? How can someone, prescibed to think or feel a certain way, be pursuaded to think or feel otherwise? By presciption? How does that work, exactly? This doesn't make sense to me. DonaldM

Dave Scot writes:

Plus these people need to be exposed which is a sentiment expressed to me by someone higher in the chain of command.

I would agree that these people's ideas and arguments need to be exposed. What I think we need to avoid is sinking to thier level of argumentum ad baculum. By all means, make them deal with the actual (as opposed to straw man versions) being made by IDPs. By all means, expose the logical fallacies (including their ad hominems)they often employ to bolster their own positions. By all means, expose the weaknesses in the evolutionary logic. But, why return ad hominem for ad hominem? That makes the whole enterprise look like "is not", "is too", "is not", "is too", "so's yer old man!" "go jump". DonaldM

[troll] Hey Dave, I haven't seen what they're saying and don't intend to, but as someone who's pretty pro ID, I would appreciate a rethink of your moderation here. Perhaps just leaving it all to someone else would be best. The signal to noise ratio here has changed since you've been moderating, and I'm sorta tiring hearing about you all the time and seeing others complain about your moderation, or you telling us they are. I've been in your shoes before, so I know what's it like, trust me. I think it's best you step right back or step out for while and let things cool down. And please don't delete this post, for the 3rd time. Shane

Hey Dave, would you mind if I became a blogger on the uncommon descent forum? I asked you this a while ago, but you never responded. I was formerly known as, Benjii. Usurper

Flew is still as much a deist as he was more than a year ago. He's practically an ID proponent. Usurper

So if I am predestined to look both ways and presumably to type this message, how exactly do i Have free will. All my choices are already made. ftrp11

I think Flew's mind sort of flew the coop if you know what I mean. DaveScot

Patrick, I agree with you, I just find it strange that people constantly point to him as a supporter of ID when he is not......... M J

DonaldM "Why draw attention to it, since attention is what they want?" Entertainment value. Like watching clowns perform in a circus. Plus these people need to be exposed which is a sentiment expressed to me by someone higher in the chain of command. DaveScot

As far as I know Flew has been "assured" (corrected for his heresy) that this is the case but hasn't researched it much himself (perhaps that's what he's doing now?). He was previously relying on writings by Dawkins. I'm curious to know the exact theories he was told about. If they're anything like the ones presented at JPL's Life Detection Seminar last year then that isn't much of an assurance. Patrick

Ben Z said: "They’d all do well to follow Flew and finally follow the evidence whereever it leads." Ben Z, you do realize that Antony Flew has since said that he followed the evidence and: "I am myself delighted to be assured by biological-scientist friends that protobiologists are now well able to produce theories of the evolution of the first living matter and that several of these theories are consistent with all the so-far-confirmed scientific evidence." - Antony Flew Replies (The Open Society, Vol. 78, No.1, Autumn 2005) So since Flew believes that if you follow the evidence, it will lead you to Darwinism, are you saying that everybody else should? I thought you supported ID? I'm confused. M J

They'd all do well to follow Flew and finally follow the evidence whereever it leads. Ben Z

Ah yes, but you were predestined to look both ways. And those that don't are predestined to be hit by the number 7 crosstown. Bling Bling

Ah, here's the Stephen Hawking quote I was looking for: "I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road." heh. Bombadill

Ah, hyper-Calvinism. I'm ok with that. ...as I'm confident that I've been "elected". ;-) Bombadill

You were "prescribed" to look both ways which is why you are still extant. Don't try to change because you can't anyway. John Davison

"As you know I believe with Einstein in a “prescribed” planned universe" Does this notion speak to the fact that I still look both ways before crossing the street? ;) Bombadill

I say we just show them the errors in calling the Panda's thumb "Bad Design"... http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1158 Bombadill

You are wrong DonaldM If Goldschmidt, Berg, Grasse, Broom, Schindewolf and even Bateson had not been such perfect gentlemen, Darwinism would have died long ago. This a war we are engaged in, a war for the control of man's mind. It has been going on for centuries. We are now in the enviable position of being able to prove beyond any doubt that man is not an accident, something we were never able to do until recently. This is no time to ignore the atheist mystics. The time is ripe to expose them for all to see. As you know I believe with Einstein in a "prescribed" planned universe. I also believe that it is my "prescribed" Providence to do everything in my power to expose these intellectual midgets to those great minds of the past that have paved the way for this great day. If that sounds egomaniacal that is just tough. I am quite sincere. Everything that is now being discoverd in the experimental laboratories of the world favors a determined universe and nothing, absolutely nothing will ever be reconciled with the chance driven, mindless, purposeless, callous, arrogant, ideologically hamstrung paradigm that has characterized the Darwinian paradigm from its inception. Now is the time to strike and strike with fervor and determination. Call them out in the street as I recently did and discover how they shrink in terror before undeniable reality. That is why I urge this forum to do what I did. Offer them the opportunity to present their hollow atheist dogma so one can counter every aspect of it with hard cold facts. I am not going to recount here all the challenges that I have presented to these creatures (I don't know ehat else to call them) except to say that not one of them was answered. Instead I have been vilified, isolated, had my vowels removed, placed in solitary confinement and finally banned at more than one of their shabby forums, forums that litter the internet landscape with their nasty insecure attacks on those they have not even read let alone understood. They are a bunch of voluntary illiterates insisting on avoiding anything critical of their hideously cynical view of their own position and purpose on this planet. The real tragedy is that they can't help themselves because, like everything else in this world, they too were "prescribed" to act as they do. Einstein, as usual, put his finger right on it as follows: "Our actions should be based on the ever-present awareness that human beings, in their thinking, feeling, and acting are not free but are just as causally bound as the stars in their motion." Statement before the Spinoza Society of America, September 22, 1932. "In peace there's nothing so becomes a man as modest stillness and humility; but when the blast of war blows in our ears, then imitate the action of the tiger: Stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood. Shakespeare, King Henry V, Act II Scene IV Charge! John Davison

Go get'em Dave! Thanks my friend. I'm trying! Usurper

stevestory is now welcoming all the ID people back to PT ....he says. I want a personal guaranteed invitation steve baby, complete with an apology for the hideous way you hypocrites have treated an Emeritus Professor of Biology and his sources, some of the finest minds of two centuries. Put your money where your mouth is. Fat chance. War, God help me, I love it so! John Davison

Frankly, I think the best way to respond to this level of ad hominem is to simply ignore it. If they want to retreat to a corner of the internet for the sole purpose of gossiping about someone, let them and ignore them. Why draw attention to it, since attention is what they want? DonaldM

I don't care who does the moderating. I'm just grateful not to be banned for a change. So if Dave decides to step down and I hope he won't, I also hope Bill Dembski is very careful about who replaces him. I am getting sick and tired of being treated like garbage every where I go. Hang in there Dave. I recommend you let them back in one at a time, line them up and prepare them for slaughter. I don't think they will even show up anyway. I invited them all and the only one that showed was that jerk Alan Fox and he had nothing rational to offer. I can't wait to see what this evokes over at good old "After the bar closes," the last bastion of Darwinian mysticism, the flotsam and jetsam left from the good ship Darwin which went down in 1871 when St George Jackson Mivart asked how natural selection can possibly be involved in a structure which has yet to appear. I love it so! John Davison

I'm surprsed they haven't banned me from viewing too. They probably will now that we have exposed them. Of course I can't post there or anywhere else at Panda's Pathetic Pollex, one of my most treasured achievements. Homozygous, "prescribed" ideologues are like that. "War, God help me, I love it so! General George S. Patton, with Einstein and myself a convinced predestinationist. John Davison

You are very welcome. I love the free publicity that I am getting there too. They seem to think that the things I say with perfect sincerity are utter nonsense. I love it so! I recommend all visit "After the Bar Closes." Know thy enemy. Maybe you should let a few of them in here one at a time so we can read the riot act to them. I'll bet they wouldn't even show. Intellectual cowards are like that don't you know. John Davison