Off Topic: “Faith & Healing: Where’s the Evidence?”

_{William Dembski

July 12, 2008

Off Topic}

Share: Facebook; Twitter; LinkedIn; Flipboard; Print; Email

Here’s something I wrote for the Baptist Press about faith healer Todd Bentley. Unlike Richard Dawkins, Michael Shermer, James Randi, and the skeptical community in general, I don’t throw out all miraculous healings. Indeed, I think they are far more prevalent than we ordinarily imagine. At the same time, we need to guard against wishful thinking.

Comments

Dr. Dembski, I am sure that you keep up with all of the latest potential treatments for autism. However, in case this one fell through the cracks, here's an interesting link: http://www.glutensolutions.com/autism.htm It seems that some autistic children, and especially those who do not show autism right from birth, are benefited by a gluten and casien free diet. If you haven't already, I'm sure its worth a try.bFast_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
08:36 PM
8
08
36
PM
PDT}

----Atom: "So CS Lewis fails in that idea. It’s ok, he had lots of other good ideas…no philosopher is 100% correct all the time." Yes, he got that one wrong. Clearly, God alters nature throughout salvation history. Of course, one can deny the historicity of the bible or challenge the eyewitness testimony, but the facts are there for anyone who wants to know about it. Also, anyone can deny the obvious and simply say that the laws of nature are not violated when Christ walks through a wall, or walks on water, or changes water into wine, or multiplies loaves of fish, or restores broken bodies. But those events are miracles and they do defy physical laws. It really surprises me that anyone would try to contest that. I suppose I could extend the list, but I am not sure it would do any good.StephenB_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
08:33 PM
8
08
33
PM
PDT}

WmAD: What do we tell our children? I'm still working on that one. From my last post, you may notice that I have been asking the same question for quite a long time. For one, "if anyone lacks wisdom, let him ask of God". That will be my prayer for you tonight, Bill. Wisdom to know how to analyze the situation, wisdom to know what to say. I really feel your ache. In my own personal journey, I would also draw on something that CS Lewis said in Miracles. I don't have the direct quote, but was fascinated when he said we did a dis-service to our children when we focus on the prayer of the loaves and fishes, and not the prayer of Gethsemene. Jesus' prayer in the garden was to do God's will. Jesus also worked where the Father was working, and "not on my own". In other words, somehow Jesus knew where God was at work, and did not try to insert himself somewhere else. So, I think God allows the natural law to play out. And, our response should be "God, how do you want me to pray for X". Jesus didn't pray for dead people who stayed dead, or sick people who stayed sick. Thats because he knew that they would be healed. His connection with the Father gave him an a priori understanding of what God was already doing. So, I want to continually ask God: "what do you want me to pray". All the best to you...TomRiddle_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
07:59 PM
7
07
59
PM
PDT}

I was saddened to hear about the passing of Tony Snow today. He was my favorite radio/news personality. He will be missed. But, it also got me thinking about this whole topic, and whether God actually does heal in our present day. Tony had liver cancer. In 2008, if you have liver cancer, you die. End of story. I was so sad to hear that he had liver cancer last year because I knew in 2006/7, that was a death sentance. Now, in 1950, if you got ovarian cancer, you died. However, in 2008, if you have ovarian cancer, there is a good chance you will survive - in fact, it pretty much follows a normal probability, assuming that you get the correct treatment. What does that mean? Well, it means that cancer gets cured by medicine. Pray all you want in 1950, and if you had ovarian cancer, its a death sentance. Similarly for liver cancer in 2008. But, in 2008, if you have ovarian cancer and pray, you may live. What caused the person to live? Was it the prayer? I have a hard time believing this, given the historical evidence. I've had friends see ovarian cancer go into remission - I'm thrilled about that!!! I want, very dearly, to say that God healed my friend. But, based on the historical evidence, I feel that is inserting God in after the fact. If I jump off a very tall building, I die. The point of this is that God has established natural laws that he does not seem to intervene in. These natural laws are necessary to make us accountable to God. If I put a gun to your head, pulled the trigger, and prayed "please God, let the bullet miss", God would hold me accountable for your death, no matter how much I protested that I prayed that the bullet will miss. I desparately want to see evidence of healing. But, I don't see the evidence. I do see radically changed lives. So, God seems to move in people. I just don't see him breaking in to nature. Now, that being said, I think it is worthwhile to look at people like Abraham, Moses, Joseph, and even Paul. We read a short book of the Bible, and feel like this is happening all the time. But, in reality, Abraham was over 120 years old. And he had what, maybe 3 or 4 miraculous events. Thats around one every 40 years. How about Timothy, James, or Barnabus. I'm not sure they saw too much - at least based on what was recorded. So, I think for us it may be similar - in your whole lifetime, perhaps it would not be surprising that you only experienced one or two truly miraculous events. The rest is just an attempt to faithfully follow God and His principles laid out in the Scripture.TomRiddle_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
07:45 PM
7
07
45
PM
PDT}

tragicmishap, Thanks for the quote. I still disagree, for all of the OT examples I brought up (are G-d's miracles somehow different now?), as well as StephenB's walking on water example...there are laws of bouyancy that Yeshua violated. Physical Law loses all meaning if it simply means "What is logically possible." Sure, small insects can walk on water; their weight to surface area permits it. Human feet do not. If the normal laws had their course, Yeshua would have sank...as Peter did. So CS Lewis fails in that idea. It's ok, he had lots of other good ideas...no philosopher is 100% correct all the time.Atom_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
07:36 PM
7
07
36
PM
PDT}

My wife had already had surgeries to remove cancers when they found it had spread to her lymphatic system. After one visit to a local faith healing couple (who also happen to be relatives), the cancer disappeared immediately and she's been clean and clear for 18 years now. A friend of mine had his severely cut, bleeding head faith healed on the spot at a revival in Ft. Worth in such a dramatic fashion that they reported it (although that was about 70 years ago) in the Star Telegram. I've seen many, many miraculous events in my life.William J. Murray_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
06:49 PM
6
06
49
PM
PDT}

"It is therefore inaccurate to define a miracle as something that breaks the laws of Nature. It doesn't. If I knock out my pipe I alter the position of a great many atoms: in the long run, and to an infinitesimal degree, of all the atoms there are. Nature digests or assimilates this event with perfect ease and harmonises it in a twinkling with all other events. It is one more bit of raw material for the laws to aply to, and they apply. I have simply thrown one event into the general cataract of events and it finds itself at home there and conforms to all other events. If God annihilates or creates or deflects a unit of matter He has created a new situation at that point. Immediately all Nature domiciles this new situation, makes it at home in her realm, adapts all other events to it. It finds itself conforming to the laws. If God creates a miraculous spermatozoon in the body of a virgin, it does not proceed to break any laws. The laws at once take it over. Nature is ready. Pregnancy follows, according to all the normal laws, and nine months later a child is born. We see every day that physical nature is not in the least incommoded by the daily inrush of events from biological nature or from psychological nature. If events ever come from beyond Nature altogether, she will be no more incommoded by them. Be sure she will rush to the point where she is invaded, as the defensive forces rush to a cut in our finger, and there hasten to accomodate the newcomer. The moment it enters her realm it obeys all her laws. Miraculous wine will intoxicate, miraculous conception will lead to pregnancy, inspired books will suffer all the ordinary processes of textual corruption, miraculous bread will be digested. The divine art of miracle is not an art of suspending the pattern to which events conform but of feeding new events into that pattern. It does not violate the law's proviso, 'If A, then B': it says, 'But this time instead of A, A2,' and Nature, speaking through all her laws, replies 'Then B2' and naturalises the immigrant, as she well knows how. She is an accomplished hostess. A miracle is emphatically not an event without cause or without results. Its cause is the activity of God: its results follow according to Natural law." C.S. Lewis, Miraclestragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
06:26 PM
6
06
26
PM
PDT}

Weather suddenly calms. There are animals capable of walking on water. Neither of these things would go against natural law.tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
05:44 PM
5
05
44
PM
PDT}

Care to relate any stories from personal experience?tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
05:42 PM
5
05
42
PM
PDT}

----Atom: "Interesting thesis, but axeheads floating, dead bodies being raised, fires not consuming a bush, water drenched sacrifices still catching fire, water turning to blood…I can go on…those are somehow affirming natural processes?" I completely agree. How about getting up from a sleep and calming a storm at will? How about walking on water? It seems that sometimes God chooses to work with nature and at other times he chooses to alter its course. It is the latter case that I would define as a miracle, and it does happen.StephenB_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
05:39 PM
5
05
39
PM
PDT}

And again, this is not "magic wand" healing and it never depends on one person purported to be a "healer". There is no ceremony where a man supposedly endowed with the gift of healing touches you and you are instantaneously healed. It happens over a long period of time and a lot of prayer from a lot of people. Again, I am just relating what I have seen and heard.tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
05:32 PM
5
05
32
PM
PDT}

The wife of the worship leader at my parent's church has had cancer for years now. Multiple times she's been told by doctors she had six months to live. I've actually lost count how many times we've heard that from the church newsletter. One story in particular stands out. One time this man and his wife traveled halfway across the country to enroll in an experimental treatment for her cancer. This is the type of experimental treatment where they only accept terminal cases with no other hope for survival. Her doctors had told her this was the only hope for her to survive. They asked the church for prayer as they went, and I have no doubt that the entire church was praying for them before, during and after that trip. When they returned the worship leader had good news and bad news. The bad news was his wife was rejected for the treatment. The good news was the reason. Upon examination, the researchers found no evidence of cancer in her body. Thus she was not eligible for the program. There is no doubt in my mind that God healed her because of the prayers of the church. And this brings up another point about so-called "faith healing". In the instances I have known of miraculous healings, no one involved ever brings up "faith" as an issue. No one ever says, "If you have faith you will absolutely be healed. If you are not healed, that means you don't have enough faith." Prayer, rather than faith, is emphasized. It is a supplication. You ask God for a gift of health that can be granted or denied but the result is never an indictment upon anyone's faith or lack thereof. And I must also emphasize that the instances I have known were never taken to the media and advertised. In fact, no one even thought to do that. It's the kind of thing you kind of smile at and thank God for, but honestly not me nor anyone I have known ever even mentioned, "Hey, we should get a reporter to do a story on this!" It just sounds ridiculous to me even saying that. But bottom line: Bill you asked, "Where's the evidence?" I have seen evidence of God healing people with cancer and other sicknesses of that sort. I have never seen nor heard of God healing a genetic defect. That's the evidence I have seen.tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
05:28 PM
5
05
28
PM
PDT}

A few have the gift of healing, many more pretend to have it but don't. The only way to test a ministry is to test it. I would have done exactly the same thing under the circumstances. There will be other ministries and other opportunities.StephenB_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
05:20 PM
5
05
20
PM
PDT}

I believe Lewis was only speaking of Jesus' miracles. He meant to say that Jesus was established as affirming and being Lord over nature and every miracle he did reflected him being in line with God's will rather than against it. Resurrection is something that will happen to everyone, so resurrection is also in line with God's will. As for the rest of your examples, they are OT and I don't think Lewis intended to address them with his argument. But it's been awhile since I read it. I may be missing something.tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
05:14 PM
5
05
14
PM
PDT}

C.S. Lewis’ argument in his book “Miracles” can be applied here. His thesis was that even when God performed miracles, they were only miracles that reaffirmed the natural laws that God created, rather than went against them.
Interesting thesis, but axeheads floating, dead bodies being raised, fires not consuming a bush, water drenched sacrifices still catching fire, water turning to blood...I can go on...those are somehow affirming natural processes? I think CS overthought that one and came to a false conclusion... Also, being born blind...genetic defect?Atom_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
04:58 PM
4
04
58
PM
PDT}

Points well taken. Perhaps I can give my two cents on this issue. My father is a Christian doctor and believes in the power of prayer to heal. Unexplained and unexpected cancer remissions are the primary example of this. I do believe that prayer has probably worked in many of these cases, but it's not something that can be proven nor have I ever seen it advertised on the 6 o'clock news. However, I have never heard a story from him or anyone of God healing a genetic defect. I have two possible explanations for this, if I can even venture a guess as to the motivations of Almighty God. 1) At this point in history, God will not allow any miraculous healings to be "claimed" by an individual. If you look at the mileage Jesus got out of miraculous healings, it is easy to see why. God will not allow anyone else to gain even a hint of Jesus' authority or have an even a marginal case at being a reincarnation of Jesus as many have claimed. If a miraculous healing could be proven to have occurred, as would be the case for the sudden disappearance of a genetic defect, somebody somewhere would claim they did it. God cannot allow that. I would go so far as to say that if you hear about a miraculous healing via the media, it is probably bogus for this very reason. Real faith healing is something you hear whispered about in the Christian underground, so to speak, and it never focuses on one individual. In all cases it has been a large group of Christians consistently and fervently praying for a specific person and a specific illness. 2) C.S. Lewis' argument in his book "Miracles" can be applied here. His thesis was that even when God performed miracles, they were only miracles that reaffirmed the natural laws that God created, rather than went against them. Multiplying bread is a natural process. Wheat produces seed from which can be made both bread and more wheat. Fish produce more fish. At the feeding of the five thousand, Jesus only sped up a process that God had already declared "good". In the case of genetic defects, genetic entropy is a natural law which God has insituted as part of the curse after the Fall. To reverse a genetic defect would be to go against a law that God has made. However, cancer can and often does go into remission due to the body's own healing mechanisms. It would not go against God's will to help the body heal. After all cancer is simply mutant cells growing faster than they should. The body has many mechanisms in place to deal with foreign objects within it, such as the immune system and apoptosis. But to suddenly and miraculously change all of the DNA in a body has no correlation in natural law. That could explain why God doesn't heal genetic defects, but does heal cancer.tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
04:42 PM
4
04
42
PM
PDT}

tragicmishap: (1) I had limited information about Bentley's ministry going into it; (2) Some people I respect urged me to attend; (3) I have little respect for conventionalism (I wouldn't be in ID if I did), and Bentley is certainly unconventional; (4) I see how frequently the media misrepresents me so I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt; (5) God, I find, often flouts our sensibilities (was Jesus the type of the Messiah to set well with the Pharisees sensibilities?). So I'm not sure what I expected. Rather I expected it to become clear what I might expect. P.S. Your statement about love being blind is false. Read 1Cor13. It says that love believes all things, which I interpret to mean that love always gives the benefit of the doubt -- the passage also says that love rejoices not in iniquity but in truth. I saw something of the truth of Bentley's ministry once I attended the meeting, a truth I was not able to see until then. William Dembski_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
04:20 PM
4
04
20
PM
PDT}

It surprises me that someone of Bill's intellectual caliber even entertained the possibility of this being something other than a blatant scam. But I guess love is blind.tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
04:06 PM
4
04
06
PM
PDT}

tragicmishap, I think Mr. Dembski's points were 1) not to prejudge who God will work through and when, and 2) to let us in on a very real, first-person Todd Bentley experience. I appreciate the service, and would like to say I'm in prayer this very moment for the healing of his child, acknowledging that he must be a real blessing to the family. More on Todd Bentley.Apollos_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
04:02 PM
4
04
02
PM
PDT}

I mean no disrespect and I have never been in your situation of parenting a child with a disability, but when I read that article my jaw dropped. Again, please forgive me for being insensitive, but did you actually believe that God would have healed your son through Todd Bentley? Do you believe it now?tragicmishap_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
03:49 PM
3
03
49
PM
PDT}

I saw Tod Bentley some years ago when he was relatively unknown. I believe in healing, too, and have seen some verified cases. However, I can't say that I was impressed with Bentley's ministry, or any of the "big top" healers. Jesus connected his miracles with his message; in essence, they were one and the same. If the message is off, what does that say? I am always suspect when hype takes the place of either the Gospel or of evidence.Alden_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
02:14 PM
2
02
14
PM
PDT}

And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.II Peter 2:3 It is very sick and sad that there are people who prey upon people's last hope to find healing after every conceivable means has failed. These curs know that when it comes to a loved one most people will pull out the last penny if it means healing can be obtained. It is even shown in the bible: And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any...Luke 8:43 It takes a very low, heartless, unscrupulous monster to take advantage of people the way these fake healers do. Like pluribus says, why don't they ever go into a hospital? I guess those in the hospital don't have enough faith to come out and get healed. That would be the fake healer's reasoning I suppose. I guess the next ante in the pot will be pet healers who go around ridding your pets of fleas and healing feline leukemia and if it don't work you just didn't put enough money in the pot showing your lack of faith.beancan5000_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT}

A little off topic here, but I read the linked article that pluripus posted: "Mr. Grassley's five-page letter to Mr. Hinn asks, among other things, for details about a residence at 35 Ritz Cove in Dana Point, Calif." My parents live in Dana Point, only a few blocks from Ritz Cove. One cannot live in Ritz Cove and not be a multi millionaire. Most of the homes are ocean front properties in excess of 4-5 million.CannuckianYankee_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
01:57 PM
1
01
57
PM
PDT}

Wonderful, and sad, very sad, essay. I believe these charlatans have done more to set back the cause of Christ than just about anything in modern society. These foxes in sheeps clothing are being investigated just now and may they all go to prison. If they are tied into the power of God then they will be out shortly. Furthermore why don't they stop by my hospital and clean it out and shut it down. Why not! http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/national/stories/110707dnmetfinances.1e4809a1b.htmlpluribus_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
01:29 PM
1
01
29
PM
PDT}

Perhaps, Mr. Dembki, and I mean no disrespect, that God does not intend to heal in all situations. I work among developmentally disabled people - some mentally retarded, some autistic. I sense an expression of God's love when working with these people. While they do not have intellectual gifts, they have a special gift for displaying how God cares for us. Perhaps this is why God places them among us. I was moved by your story.CannuckianYankee_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
12:40 PM
12
12
40
PM
PDT}

Maybe this has been done to death, but the success of AA is not missed by those in Psychiatry/-ology. I guess we could argue whether the "Higher Power" exists at all, but there is no doubt the AA gets results. Maybe it's a isolated case, but the last three indexes I did were for books on addiction; written by someone credentialed (and teaching) in that field, that held the door WAY open for spirituality in the healing process -- even warning against the materialist tendencies of traditional Psychology, that tended to flatten symptoms into simplistic "chemical" categories.wnelson_{July 12, 2008
July
07
Jul
12
12
2008
12:35 PM
12
12
35
PM
PDT}

Prev 1 2

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Leave a Reply