On Orange Gods and the One Apple God

_{Barry Arrington

October 19, 2014

Off Topic}

Share: Facebook; Twitter; LinkedIn; Flipboard; Print; Email

This morning a friend said she had recently heard an atheist make the “I am atheistic about just one more god than you are” argument. Ricky Gervais makes the argument this way:

So next time someone tells me they believe in God, I’ll say “Oh which one? Zeus? Hades? Jupiter? Mars? Odin? Thor? Krishna? Vishnu? Ra?…” If they say “Just God. I only believe in the one God,” I’ll point out that they are nearly as atheistic as me. I don’t believe in 2,870 gods, and they don’t believe in 2,869.

Like many things the new atheists say, the argument has a kind of first blush plausibility but does not hold up on even a moment’s reflection. As David Bentley Hart explains in The Experience of God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss, Gervais has made a glaring category error by lumping the God of the three great monotheistic faiths in with other “gods”:

according to the classical metaphysical traditions of both the East and West, God is the unconditioned cause of reality – of absolutely everything that is – from the beginning to the end of time. Understood in this way, one can’t even say that God “exists” in the sense that my car or Mount Everest or electrons exist. God is what grounds the existence of every contingent thing, making it possible, sustaining it through time, unifying it, giving it actuality. God is the condition of the possibility of anything existing at all.

Properly understood, the God of the monotheistic faiths is not like the gods in the Greek, Norse or Indian pantheons – contingent creatures all. He is pure being that is the source of all being. He is the necessary being, and by definition there can be only one necessary being. The necessary being cannot be compared to contingent beings. To lump the God of the monotheistic faiths in with Odin demonstrates that you understand neither God nor Odin.

Think of it this way. Gervais says in essense: “There are a bunch of oranges, and I disbelieve in all of the oranges without exception. You are little different from me because you admit that you also disbelieve in all of the oranges, except for that last little orange that you irrationally insist on clinging to.” No, Ricky, just like you I disbelieve in all of the oranges without exception. But I do believe in an apple. Why should I stop believing in an apple just because I don’t believe in oranges?

Comments

Hi Dionisio, re your post, #180, the only impression I had was that they were saying, 'I'm already saved'. I don't have to worry about working out my salvation, about sinning and so on, because I've already been saved by God's redemptive sacrifice. It's just a matter of waiting for heaven to claim me. They might be posting again by now. Here is the site: 'christianforums.com'Axel_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
10:30 AM
10
10
30
AM
PDT}

Doinisio,,, yes that song gets the point across rather clearly :) Here is another one,, Carly Simon - You're So Vain http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQZmCJUSC6g i.e. millions of songs have been written about people loving other people, hardly any are written about loving one's self more than other people except in parody and scorn!bornagain77_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
10:04 AM
10
10
04
AM
PDT}

KF More on our human condition:
The role of the Judenräte in the Holocaust Judenräte were responsible for the internal administration of ghettos, standing between the Nazi occupiers and their Jewish communities. In general, the Judenräte represented the elite from their Jewish communities. Often, a Judenrat had a group for internal security and control, a Jewish Ordnungspolizei. They also attempted to manage the government services normally found in a city such as those named above. However, the requirements of the Nazis to deliver community members to forced labor, deportation or concentration camps placed them in the position of helping the occupiers. To resist such actions or orders was to risk summary execution or inclusion in the next concentration camp shipment, with a quick replacement. In a number of cases, such as the Minsk ghetto and the ?achwa ghetto, Judenräte cooperated with the resistance movement. In other cases, Judenräte cooperated with the Nazis. Hannah Arendt stated in her 1963 book Eichmann in Jerusalem that without the assistance of the Judenräte, the registration of the Jews, their concentration in ghettos and, later, their active assistance in the Jews' deportation to extermination camps, many fewer Jews would have perished because the Germans would have encountered considerable difficulties in drawing up lists of Jews. In occupied Europe, the Nazis entrusted Jewish officials with the task of making such lists of Jews along with information about the property they owned. The Judenräte also directed the Jewish police to assist the Germans in catching Jews and loading them onto transport trains leaving for concentration camps. In her book, Arendt wrote that: "To a Jew, this role of the Jewish leaders in the destruction of their own people is undoubtedly the darkest chapter of the whole dark story." Arendt's view has been challenged by other historians of the Holocaust, including Isaiah Trunk in his book Judenrat: The Jewish Councils in Eastern Europe Under Nazi Occupation (1972). Summarising Trunk's research, Holocaust scholar Michael Berenbaum has written: "In the final analysis, the Judenräte had no influence on the frightful outcome of the Holocaust; the Nazi extermination machine was alone responsible for the tragedy, and the Jews in the occupied territories, most especially Poland, were far too powerless to prevent it." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judenrat
Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
09:19 AM
9
09
19
AM
PDT}

191 kairosfocus Excellent! Thank you.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
09:00 AM
9
09
00
AM
PDT}

194 William J Murray
In any universe, is it morally acceptable to torture children for personal pleasure?
According to the Nazi Mengele's standards or to WJM's standards?Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
08:57 AM
8
08
57
AM
PDT}

KF @ 198 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_board_gamesDionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
08:52 AM
8
08
52
AM
PDT}

198 kairosfocus
Mere coincidence? I doubt it. Ideas have consequences . . .
Agree. Thank you for the interesting information.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
08:45 AM
8
08
45
AM
PDT}

197 bornagain77 Still laughing after watching that video. :) Thank you.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
08:40 AM
8
08
40
AM
PDT}

D, here is Heine's 1830's prophecy on the root of that -- 100 years before the event: >> Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [--> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . .], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. … The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. … … Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world. … At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [--> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [--> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831.] >> Mere coincidence? I doubt it. Ideas have consequences . . . KFkairosfocus_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
08:16 AM
8
08
16
AM
PDT}

as to ls could you please explain to me your reasoning behind your comments around and including the comment below. “without this distinction we are stuck with the logical contradiction of maximally great love being grounded in ones own self which is the very antithesis of maximally great love” Okie Dokie,,, It's All About Me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XHkMPA1334 :)bornagain77_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
08:09 AM
8
08
09
AM
PDT}

194 William J Murray
In any universe, is it morally acceptable to torture children for personal pleasure?
The names 'Auschwitz' and 'Mengele' come to mind, don't they? However, I wonder what do they have to do with your interesting question? BTW, those names are not associated with uncivilized cannibal tribes in the middle of the Amazonian jungle. They are related to a nation that also gave us Handel, Bach, Beethoven. Can we make sense of all that together? I can't, unless I believe that the prophet Jeremiah was right when he stated that our hearts are sick and can't be understood, therefore have no natural cure. Some of us know our Maker provided the cure to all our spiritual maladies. However, many don't want to even consider the divine remedy, and prefer the temporal instant gratification, with all the fake bells and whistles that this world offers. Pathetic state of affairs. :(Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
07:56 AM
7
07
56
AM
PDT}

Bornagain77 Hi Bornagain77, as usual I have come late to the mega discussions. I am a non trinitarian, because to me it makes no sense and I don't think the original scriptures teach it. However I have my own theories about the nature of GOD, one that for me is consistent with a maximally loving GOD in one (Gods) self. So could you please explain to me your reasoning behind your comments around and including the comment below. "without this distinction we are stuck with the logical contradiction of maximally great love being grounded in ones own self which is the very antithesis of maximally great love". By the way I have not seen the videos you had provided yet, do I need to watch them?logically_speaking_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
07:32 AM
7
07
32
AM
PDT}

Another question for Aleta; In any universe, is it morally acceptable to torture children for personal pleasure?William J Murray_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT}

as to Aleta's claim that it is,,, "not possible to know anything about what lies outside of our universe",,, ,, I'm sure the discoverers of the amplituhedron would be very surprised to hear that! Bohemian Gravity - Rob Sheldon - September 19, 2013 Excerpt: Quanta magazine carried an article about a hypergeometric object that is as much better than Feynman diagrams as Feynman was better than Heisenberg's S-matrices. But the discoverers are candid about it, "The amplituhedron, or a similar geometric object, could help by removing two deeply rooted principles of physics: locality and unitarity. “Both are hard-wired in the usual way we think about things,” said Nima Arkani-Hamed, a professor of physics at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, N.J., and the lead author of the new work, which he is presenting in talks and in a forthcoming paper. “Both are suspect.”" What are these suspect principles? None other than two of the founding principles of materialism--that there do not exist "spooky-action-at-a-distance" forces, and that material causes are the only ones in the universe.,,, http://rbsp.info/PROCRUSTES/bohemian-gravity/bornagain77_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:59 AM
6
06
59
AM
PDT}

WJM: Prezactly, and also revealing the transcendent power of logic. KFkairosfocus_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:38 AM
6
06
38
AM
PDT}

F/N: Light, shocking, blazing light: ___________ >> Matt 5: The Sermon on the Mount 1 Seeing the crowds, a he went up on the mountain, and when he b sat down, his disciples came to him. The Beatitudes 2 And c he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: 3 d “Blessed are e the poor in spirit, for f theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 “Blessed are g those who mourn, for they shall be comforted. 5 “Blessed are the h meek, for they i shall inherit the earth. 6 “Blessed are those who hunger and j thirst k for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied. 7 “Blessed are l the merciful, for they shall receive mercy. 8 “Blessed are m the pure in heart, for n they shall see God. 9 “Blessed are o the peacemakers, for p they shall be called q sons1 of God. 10 r “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for s theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 t “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely u on my account. 12 v Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for w so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Salt and Light 13 “You are the salt of the earth, x but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet. 14 y “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 z Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so aa that2 they may see your good works and ab give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Christ Came to Fulfill the Law 17 ac “Do not think that I have come to abolish ad the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but ae to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, af until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 ag Therefore whoever relaxes ah one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least ai in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great aj in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds ak that of the scribes and Pharisees, you al will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anger 21 am “You have heard that it was said to those of old, an ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable ao to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that ap everyone who is angry with his brother3 will be liable aq to judgment; whoever insults4 his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to ar the hell5 of fire. 23 as So if at you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 au Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26 Truly, I say to you, av you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.6 Lust 27 aw “You have heard that it was said, ax ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that ay everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 az If your right eye ba causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into bb hell. 30 bc And if your right hand bd causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into be hell. Divorce 31 bf “It was also said, bg ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ 32 bh But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and bi whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33 “Again bj you have heard that it was said to those of old, bk ‘You shall not swear falsely, but bl shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ 34 But I say to you, bm Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for bn it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is bo the city of the great King. 36 And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; bp anything more than this comes from evil.7 Retaliation 38 bq “You have heard that it was said, br ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, bs Do not resist the one who is evil. But bt if anyone bu slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And bv if anyone would sue you and take your tunic,8 let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone bw forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 bx Give to the one who begs from you, and by do not refuse the one who would borrow from you. Love Your Enemies 43 bz “You have heard that it was said, ca ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, cb Love your enemies and cc pray for those who persecute you, 45 cd so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and ce sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 cf For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers,9 what more are you doing than others? Do not even cg the Gentiles do the same? 48 ch You therefore must be ci perfect, cj as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 6: Giving to the Needy 1 “Beware of a practicing your righteousness before other people in order b to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. 2 c “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may d be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have e received their reward. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. f And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. The Lord's Prayer 5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love g to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. h Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, i go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. j And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. 7 “And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as k the Gentiles do, for l they think that they will be heard m for their many words. 8 Do not be like them, n for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. 9 o Pray then like this: p “Our Father in heaven, q hallowed be r your name.1 10 s Your kingdom come, t your will be done,2 u on earth as it is in heaven. 11 v Give us w this day our daily bread,3 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And x lead us not into temptation, but y deliver us from z evil.4 14 aa For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 ab but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Fasting 16 “And ac when you fast, do not look gloomy like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by others. ad Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, ae anoint your head and wash your face, 18 that your fasting may not be seen by others but by your Father who is in secret. af And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. Lay Up Treasures in Heaven 19 ag “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where ah moth and rust5 destroy and where thieves ai break in and steal, 20 aj but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22 ak “The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, 23 al but if am your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24 an “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and ao money.6 Do Not Be Anxious 25 ap “Therefore I tell you, aq do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 ar Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. as Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his at span of life?7 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, au even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, av O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For aw the Gentiles seek after all these things, and ax your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But ay seek first az the kingdom of God and his righteousness, ba and all these things will be added to you. 34 bb “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. Matt 7: Judging Others 1 a “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 b For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and c with the measure you use it will be measured to you. 3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but d do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. 6 e “Do not give f dogs what is holy, and do not throw your g pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. Ask, and It Will Be Given 7 h “Ask, i and it will be given to you; j seek, and you will find; k knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 9 Or which one of you, if his son asks him for l bread, will give him m a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? 11 If you then, n who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will o your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! The Golden Rule 12 “So p whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is q the Law and the Prophets. 13 r “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy1 that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and s the way is hard that leads to life, and t those who find it are few. A Tree and Its Fruit 15 u “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are v ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them w by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, x every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 y Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them z by their fruits. I Never Knew You 21 aa “Not everyone who ab says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will ac enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who ad does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 ae On that day af many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not ag prophesy in your name, and cast out demons ah in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 ai And then will I declare to them, ‘I aj never knew you; ak depart from me, al you workers of lawlessness.’ Build Your House on the Rock 24 am “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like an a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like ao a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” The Authority of Jesus 28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, ap the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 aq for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes. [ESV] >> _____________ How do we respond to this? The test . . . It is time for fresh thinking, for metanoia, for repentance and reformation in the face of the light:
700 BC: Isa 53:1 Who has believed what he has heard from us?[a] And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected[b] by men; a man of sorrows,[c] and acquainted with[d] grief;[e] and as one from whom men hide their faces[f] he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief;[g] when his soul makes[h] an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. 11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see[i] and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,[j] and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,[k] because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. 1 Cor 15: 1 Now I would remind you, brothers,1 of the gospel a I preached to you, which you received, b in which you stand, 2 and by which c you are being saved, if you d hold fast to the word I preached to you— e unless you believed in vain. 3 For f I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died g for our sins h in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised i on the third day j in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that k he appeared to Cephas, then l to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to m James, then n to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, o he appeared also to me . . . . 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. [ESV]
Remember, c 700 BC in Isaiah. Then, c 55 AD by Paul, stating to the Corinthians the summary testimony of the 500, c 35 - 38 AD. Testimony by men who willingly, peacefully surrendered their lives rather than deny what hey knew as eyewitnesses, and Who they knew by direct transformational encounter. It is time for fresh thinking. KF PS: If you have been led to seriously or hyperskeptically doubt the Gospels, I suggest here as a start. PPS: Delays imposed by network troubles. Net just came back, here goes . . . . PPPS: Anyone have an answer on why an Android Tab can suddenly find itself in Wi Fi lockout to refusing to go on, perpetually trying to go on? (And tossing the apps etc in a hard reset has no effect. Is there a SSID issue at work, and are my Routers doing a backdoor update to MFR that causes lockout? BTW another Android Tab using I think an older And 4 still works.)kairosfocus_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT}

Aleta, I'm challenging your claim that it is not possible to know anything about what lies outside of our universe. Is there any possible world, inside our universe or outside, where 2+2 does not equal 4? Is there any possible world, inside our universe or outside, where A = not A?William J Murray_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:29 AM
6
06
29
AM
PDT}

Do Christians, Jews and Muslims worship the God of Abraham? -- To answer that, we need to first understand who is the God of Abraham. Jesus clearly stated this in John 8:58, for the followers of Christ this answers all questions as to who the God of Abraham is.Chalciss_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:27 AM
6
06
27
AM
PDT}

The good question that both Querius at #173 and heKS at#174 ask concerns a contradiction they think they see between my strongly disbelieving in any Gods and my also calling myself a strong agnostic. I think I can clarify this. My strong agnosticm is in respect to metaphysics - we really can't know what is outside/behind/before the universe that we live in. Therefore, we speculate, and we built logical systems to try to bolster our speculations, but in fact we don't know, and we can't investigate. That is what I am a strong agnostic about. However, knowledge and beliefs about what is in this universe are capable of being investigated, using a combination of evidence and logic. Within this universe, I believe strongly that there are no Gods. There may be some way in which some metaphysical foundation of the universe is embedded in the universe we know, but all religious beliefs about that are wrong. Religions are obviously human inventions - they propose, and have proposed, a myriad of supernatural beings as far back in society as we can study, and I see no evidence that any of them have been true in any literal sense. So, to summarize, my agnostism is about metaphysics, and my atheism is about what we know in this world. I'll respond to one more point HeKS made, and then end this post, possibly to return to all the stuff about the Big Bang if I have time. I wrote, 'However, just as we (human beings and cultures in general) have invented religions, we have also invented metaphysical arguments that appear to be “logical” because we take for granted assumptions that seem to us unassailable, but which are in fact not necessarily true." and heKS asked, "Are you suggesting that logic cannot provide us with powerful arguments? Or that logic itself is invalid? Or merely that we can’t know what is really logical vs. what only appears to be “logical”? Or are you saying something else?" My statement about the circularity of logic was in respect to metaphysical explanations. In respect to the physical world - the universe we can experience, logic is a powerful tool, and by using it in conjunction with evidence we gather, we can, and have, learned incredible amounts about the universe. However, since we have no way to gather evidence about what is outside the universe, we can't use logic in the same way. In that case, whatever logical metaphysical systems we build may be internally consistent, but they in fact have no verifiable connection to anything outside of themselves and don't actually add any knowledge.Aleta_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:10 AM
6
06
10
AM
PDT}

Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I want to address Querius at #173 first. He and HeKS both ask a good question, which I'll reply to in a bit, but first I want to answer Querius' main question. Querius writes, "Could it be that you *want* to be an agnostic rather than an atheist, and that a personal God would be inconvenient? Again, I have no doubt about your honesty and that your beliefs have a rational cause. But here’s a crazy guess . . . You’re not ready to chuck God completely over the side, but you don’t like the possibility that if you did allow yourself to get more involved, “God” might cramp your style. Go ahead and be honest with yourself. Am I all wet or more or less on-the-money?" All wet, but I know my saying that won't mean anything to you. It is, however, irritating to have someone think that somehow they know better than I do myself about what my beliefs mean. The flip (in both senses of the word) response would be to say to the theist, "Do you cling to the idea of God because you're afraid of facing the truth about needing to take full personal responsibility for your life rather than making up an explanation that allows you to shunt that responsibility off to some imaginary source." I think virtually any theist would feel quite insulted about that. I have have been studying and thinking about these religious and philosophical issues, and their relationship to the conduct my own life, in both academic and personal settings, for 50 years. I think it would be far better for this discussion to accept that I have just as solid a foundation in my life for my beliefs as you feel you do in yours, and not consider ascribing to me hidden motivations about somehow resisting a desire to believe in God.Aleta_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT}

#184 correction ~~479~~ 179Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
06:01 AM
6
06
01
AM
PDT}

BA77 177. Good. Thanks.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:57 AM
5
05
57
AM
PDT}

KF 176, 178, 479: As usual, very timely reminders. Thank you.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PDT}

HeKS 174: mucho food for thoughts. Thanks.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:56 AM
5
05
56
AM
PDT}

Querius 173: interesting questions. Thanks.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:55 AM
5
05
55
AM
PDT}

Andre 172: Good point. Thanks.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:55 AM
5
05
55
AM
PDT}

Axel @ 149
I’ve heard youngsters on a Christian forum effectively boasting that they can do what they like because they’ve been saved.
These days, specially among the younger generations (but not only), short messages are the way to communicate in popular tools: t, fb, etc. There's a limit for the amount of characters they are willing to chew and digest. Hence, their expressions lack explicit meaning in many cases. Many things are assumed a priori. Perhaps that's a reason why some online social media are so popular. Lots of short frivolous nonsense messages. The meaning of words is irrelevant. We can see that on TV programs and in our conversation with friends or relatives. Perhaps we do the same too? We repeat words like 'amazing', 'absolutely', 'perfect', and the blasphemous 'OMG' in any context. Would we have words to describe what is really amazing or perfect? No, we won't, because we have used those words to refer to things or situations that are not really amazing or perfect. The same applies to the other words. Absolutely may be used to imply a strong approval or resolution, but the term itself has a stronger meaning of 100% knowledge. Are we really 100% sure when we say it? Could this be comparable to Peter declaring that he won't let Jesus to go to the cross? Was he really in control of what could happen in the future? Of course, no! Maybe that's why Jesus rebuked him? We talk faster than we think, if we ever think. That's why we make pauses in our conversations, while still uttering some meaningless sounds, kind of implying that we are still talking (hey, don't interrupt me). Perhaps something similar occurs with our writing, but not as bad as with talking, because writing gives us the possibility to review what we express before another person receives our message. This is one reason why I prefer written communication. Another reason is that what we write is recorded, hence it's harder for someone to claim we said something different than what we literally wrote. On one occasion at my work years ago, while I was reviewing a software bug report, I realized the technical support engineer who had created the report, apparently had not included any data to reproduce the indicated problem. Since I did not want to expose his mistake so openly, instead of adding a note in the report, indicating the missing data, I wrote an email directly to the tech support engineer. Later, after seeing that time had passed and I did not receive any reply, I went to the technical support department, located in another area of the building, and walked into the office of the engineer I wanted to talk to. Two other engineers were in the office. At that point I realized they were on break time (often my oblivious nature made me skip those established breaks). I asked the engineer about my email. He said he was going to include the data in the bug report ticket after the break. As I was leaving his office, he asked me to stay for a moment and respond a question they were discussing: what's the opposite of love? I responded with another question: what do you mean by 'love'? They all yelled at me in unison: respond the question! I told them that if they wanted a serious answer from me, I first needed to know what exactly was their question about, because theses days the word 'love' is used in a variety of situations with different meanings. The same word means different what I say it to my wife or my children than when I use it to indicate how much I like the taste of chocolate. Well, my explanation wasn't well taken. They ordered me to get out of their office right away. Eventually I got the missing dataset and was able to reproduce and fix the bug in the program. :) I don't know what those youngsters you mentioned had in mind when they wrote those comments about doing what they like and associating that with their alleged salvation. Our identity in Christ gives us freedom from many things this world expects from us. I don't have to like what others like, as for example a movie with images and content that don't appeal to me. I don't have to do what others do. I don't have to submit to peer pressure or bullying. Don't have to celebrate Halloween or anything I don't want to. Also I can do things I like, which might not be politically correct, like reading the Bible or writing some of the things I wrote here, or declining invitations to do things many people like, and perhaps I used to like it too, but I don't want to do it. I like to eat ice cream and could eat a whole bucket in a short while, but I just don't want to do it, because I know it's not healthy for me. As you see, we should be careful with the wording of our expressions. I'm not good at this yet. Still learning. What I like to do may not be what I want to do. Paul the apostle referred to this in some of his letters. Sometimes I do things I don't want to do, because the old 'me' still falls in the temptation traps. Sometimes I don't do things I want to do, because I don't take advantage of the freedom I have I Christ. In the case you mentioned, where the youngsters expressed something that wasn't clear or was conflictive, I would have asked them a few questions to let them clarify what they meant by what they said. When we talk about Jesus, we remember that he is not only our Savior and Redeemer, but also the Lord of lords, and King of kings. We are His servants wannabes. Sanctification should gradually make us wanting to be more like Him. Only the Holy Spirit dwelling within us can lead us in that direction, but we have to submit our lives to Him and surrender to His will. Anything you want to comment on this? Thanks.Dionisio_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:46 AM
5
05
46
AM
PDT}

PS: see how the need for careful thought about things that hit close to home begins to challenge us personally, requiring a dedication to continually change thought towards the true, the good, the right, the pure? Thus, how it can be very hard indeed to think straight about such matters on a sustained basis? PPS: Two warnings:
Jn 3: 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” [ESV] Jn 8:43 Why do you misunderstand what I say? It is because you are unable to hear what I am saying. [You cannot bear to listen to My message; your ears are shut to My teaching.] 44 You are of your father, the devil, and it is your will to practice the lusts and gratify the desires [which are characteristic] of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a falsehood, he speaks what is natural to him, for he is a liar [himself] and the father of lies and of all that is false. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me [do not trust Me, do not rely on Me, or adhere to Me]. 46 Who of you convicts Me of wrongdoing or finds Me guilty of sin? Then if I speak truth, why do you not believe Me [trust Me, rely on, and adhere to Me]? 47 Whoever is of God listens to God. [Those who belong to God hear the words of God.] This is the reason that you do not listen [to those words, to Me]: because you do not belong to God and are not of God or in harmony with Him. [AMP]
Our responsiveness to light is indeed a telling test . . .kairosfocus_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:06 AM
5
05
06
AM
PDT}

Where:
1: A self evident truth is not a mere dubious assumption 2: an inference on best current explanation per evidence of facts, coherence and explanatory power is induction not assumption, nor is it question-begging 3: Even postulation of first principles or axioms or presuppositions open to logical analysis, and conditioned by the need to make sense of an aspect of reality [such as, classically, for "flat space" geometry] is not unwarranted assumptions
In short, beware of dismissals by abuse of the term "assumptions" as a rhetorical excuse for hyperskepticism. KFkairosfocus_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
05:00 AM
5
05
00
AM
PDT}

Of note: How do you know that Christianity is the one true worldview? - Ravi Zacharias - video The answer (explicated in 9 mins) to the atheist's challenge as to how we know that Christianity is the only true religion: coherence and correspondence. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWY-6xBA0Pk Christianity and Panentheism - Inspiring Philosophy video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xki03G_TO4bornagain77_{October 21, 2014
October
10
Oct
21
21
2014
04:19 AM
4
04
19
AM
PDT}

Prev 1 2 3 4 5 … 9 Next

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Leave a Reply