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Life arose from chemical imbalances?

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From ScienceDaily:

The water world theory from Russell and his team says that the warm, alkaline hydrothermal vents maintained an unbalanced state with respect to the surrounding ancient, acidic ocean — one that could have provided so-called free energy to drive the emergence of life. In fact, the vents could have created two chemical imbalances. The first was a proton gradient, where protons — which are hydrogen ions — were concentrated more on the outside of the vent’s chimneys, also called mineral membranes. The proton gradient could have been tapped for energy — something our own bodies do all the time in cellular structures called mitochondria.

The second imbalance could have involved an electrical gradient between the hydrothermal fluids and the ocean. Billions of years ago, when Earth was young, its oceans were rich with carbon dioxide. When the carbon dioxide from the ocean and fuels from the vent — hydrogen and methane — met across the chimney wall, electrons may have been transferred. These reactions could have produced more complex carbon-containing, or organic compounds — essential ingredients of life as we know it. Like proton gradients, electron transfer processes occur regularly in mitochondria.

“Within these vents, we have a geological system that already does one aspect of what life does,” said Laurie Barge, second author of the study at JPL. “Life lives off proton gradients and the transfer of electrons.”

As is the case with all advanced life forms, enzymes are the key to making chemical reactions happen. In our ancient oceans, minerals may have acted like enzymes, interacting with chemicals swimming around and driving reactions. In the water world theory, two different types of mineral “engines” might have lined the walls of the chimney structures. More.

So the exact right genetic codes and protein machines to read, repair, and copy them and carry out all the activities for life can be explained by “minerals may have acted like enzymes, interacting with chemicals swimming around and driving reactions.” And life is not now popping up everywhere because…?

Acceptance of free-floating speculation for decades on end as “science” for no other reason than that it is naturalist is harmful to the concept of science—unless what we mean by science is “whatever promotes naturalism.” Why, one wonders, do proponents of naturalist atheism not become nervous about the use of this sort of silliness to promote their beliefs? Readers?

See also: The Science Fictions series at your fingertips (origin of life)

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Comments
AVS goes on,
The guys you have quoted above know damn well who their audience is and caters to them.
"The guys" I quoted above are, respectively, a Nobel prize-winning biochemist who believed in evolution and a biology professor at Portland State University who holds two PhDs (ecology and microbiology). They're respected scientists who know far more about evolutionary theory than you do.Barb
April 25, 2014
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The problem is that you and your friends here have a mountain of ignorance to overcome. The overall idea of evolution has been around for a while and is constantly being refined by modern science. The problem is, we don't even fully understand how organisms work today, this makes putting the pieces of the evolution puzzle back together extremely difficult. To have the level of understanding that you want about evolution requires virtually everything to be known about current biological processes as well as a good understanding, if not complete understanding, of the biological processes in ancestral organisms as well as their interactions. To expect this type of knowledge in a couple hundred years, like I said, shows your lack of knowledge on the subjects at hand. The guys you have quoted above know damn well who their audience is and caters to them. They can present science however they want and know that you guys will eat it right up. They also know they can't be scientifically refuted because they prey on the gaps in knowledge. It's a very favorable position for them to be in, not to mention the huge amount of money they are probably making by being "creationist scientists." At this point I could probably join their ranks. I would be a great "creationist scientist" because I understand what we know and don't know and could yell and scream about it all day. Maybe write a book and make some good coin while I'm at it. But I don't. Because it's bullshit. It's not science.AVS
April 25, 2014
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AVS writes,
Not at all, we all expect science to explain the steps of evolution. But what you’re asking for is every single incremental change in the course of evolution. That is not something that is going to happen overnight. Not even in our lifetime.
Yes, I am asking for every single incremental change and why it happens, and how an unguided process chooses what it does so that an organism can exist and reproduce. I know it won't happen overnight. But evolutionary theory has been around for 150 years at least, and yet in searching through the literature (by this I mean peer-reviewed literature written by scientists for scientists), there's no real explanation(s). Drs. Michael Denton and Michael Behe have already written books about this.
The fact that you point to the gaps in knowledge and use them as evidence against evolution, as do many here, says a lot about you guys and what you consider “evidence.”
I think arguments from ignorance are expected when discussing science because, as I pointed out, nobody knows everything. New knowledge is constantly being discovered and added to what we already know. Scientific inquiry involves collecting and analyzing evidence, and then choosing the best theory. Related to this is empiricism, which is based on observed and validated evidence. With evolution, we can't directly observe how life began on Earth.
It is also a good demonstration of your scientific illiteracy and overall lack of knowledge about how science works in general.
Tell that to the scientists I quoted above. They acknowledge the lack of information relating to molecular evolutionary theory. Are they wrong in making those statements? Why or why not?Barb
April 25, 2014
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Not at all, we all expect science to explain the steps of evolution. But what you're asking for is every single incremental change in the course of evolution. That is not something that is going to happen overnight. Not even in our lifetime. The fact that you point to the gaps in knowledge and use them as evidence against evolution, as do many here, says a lot about you guys and what you consider "evidence." It is also a good demonstration of your scientific illiteracy and overall lack of knowledge about how science works in general.AVS
April 25, 2014
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AVS continues,
Ah, yes barbie, the age-old “I require every single step of evolution to be presented to me before I believe in something, even though I believe a god exists without any sort of evidence.”
Not really, no, but continue building that strawman. I don't think it's unreasonable or unrealistic for science to describe the steps evolution takes to get us to where we are now, do you? And I have presented evidence for my belief in God many times on this forum. Not my fault you can't--or won't--read.
You are the UD poster child. Let me know when you get that stick out of your rear-end.
Let me know when you have anything substantial to say. Sad little atheist troll.Barb
April 25, 2014
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Mung: About my views on CD, please look at my posts #76, 77, 78, 81, 82, 88, 98, 107, 113 and 121 here (mainly debating with BA): https://uncommondescent.com/news/1177-human-orphan-genes-removed-by-evolutionists-from-databases/#comments Ant at my posts #49 and 56 here (debating with jerry): https://uncommondescent.com/genetics/larry-almost-got-it-right-but-he-just-cant-turn-the-corner/#comments In those posts I explain why I accept common decent, and what I mean by common descent.gpuccio
April 25, 2014
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Mung at #60: Briefly:
You accept common descent. VJ Torley accepts common descent. Many other IDists accept common descent. Why? Is it because that’s what the evidence indicates?
Yes. And I have tried many times to explain why, and to explain what I mean by "common descent".
If so, why focus at all on macroevolution?
It's simple. Unguided common descent cannot explain macroevolution. Macroevolution is evidence of design.
Are there not enough protein families without known ancestors within prokaryotes!?
Yes, and there are almost as many in other living beings. Each protein family is evidence of design. Why focus only on OOL, when there is also macroevolution to be explained? Moreover, I have often argued that the same principle must be responsible for functional information in proteins, both at OOL and in the following evolution of life. Moreover, focusing on the appearance of recent protein families, and of other recent functional information, in higher species, like mammals or humans, allow us to have more detailed data for our reasoning, for obvious reasons. OOL is fascinating, but direct data about it are unfortunately not so abundant.
If the evolutionists and the materialists cannot even explain the simplest cell, or the evolutionary relationships between the simplest cells, why take seriously anything they may say about common descent?
Because some of the things they say about common descent make sense, and must therefore be taken seriously. We are here to find truth, not to fight evolutionists and materialists (although I must admit that it is a lot of fun to do that! :) ).
Why complicate things?
The best way to complicate things, IMO, is to ignore facts. I simply try to stick to facts and to good reasoning.gpuccio
April 25, 2014
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Ah, yes barbie, the age-old "I require every single step of evolution to be presented to me before I believe in something, even though I believe a god exists without any sort of evidence." You are the UD poster child. Let me know when you get that stick out of your rear-end.AVS
April 25, 2014
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AVS continues,
Are you kidding me Barb? “Detailed step-by-step instructions”?
No. Not in the slightest. If evolution is going to claim to be the be-all, end-all theory of just about everything, then it had better have the evidence to back it up.
It would take volumes of books to do that for all those questions.
Tell the scientists to begin writing, then. Use flowcharts if necessary. I'm pretty sure the world's computers can handle all that information. After all, Darwin's book didn't have more than 400 pages.
Not only that but science is still working on many of the steps, if not most of them and you know this.
And that is why much of the arguments in favor of evolutionary theory with respect to molecular evolution are simply arguments from ignorance.
You’re just asking questions that you know science hasn’t found the answer to yet, and you think you’re oh so smart for it.
No. I'm stating that until you have solid, verifiable evidence that "X" happened this way, you cannot (and should not) make sweeping statements about evolution. Much of science consists of arguments from ignorance, and that's okay; nobody has all the answers. But then you don't get to claim that you do have all the answers, either.
You’re not. You and your friends here are a bunch of peckerwood jackasses, most of whom don’t know the first thing about biology and science in general.
Ad hominem. Got anything better? Any real solid evidence for your statements? Just insults? How very junior high of you.
I’m not here to educate you, if you want to learn more about all these things enroll in a biology program at a University. Something tells me you wouldn’t last a semester. =)
Good thing I already have a bachelor's degree. Now go back to studying before bedtime.Barb
April 25, 2014
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Really Mungy? Obviously there are gaps. There are a lot of things that we don't know. Did you really not know this? You guys are not telling the truth. You make it seem as if we have been studying these things for centuries and have been unable to provide explanations. We haven't. Modern science has not been around very long and yet we still have made huge advances. Just imagine where we'll be in another 100 years, or thousand years. ..that is if our religious fundamentalist friends don't get a hold of a few nukes and blow modern society back into the stone age.AVS
April 24, 2014
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AVS:
You are the manifestation of the “god of the gaps” argument. You prey on the gaps in science, making it seem like we can’t explain things and using it as evidence.
So there are gaps that science has not filled? What gaps still exist that science has not yet explained? Do tell.
You prey on the gaps in science, making it seem like we can’t explain things and using it as evidence.
Well if you could explain it, it wouldn't be a gap, right? So what's your beef? That we're telling the truth? That you have no explanation? That we just don't trust you when you say that someday you will have an explanation?Mung
April 24, 2014
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Mungy, if you can't see the logic behind the assumption of extremely simple precursor cells existing in the early steps of abiogenesis, then you are hopeless. What exists now does not really matter when thinking about the first protocells because they were unlike anything that we see today. Abiogenesis is the search for a natural explanation for the generation of cellular life, and that first step was most certainly the simplest of simple cells. We now need to find out what that cell might have consisted of.AVS
April 24, 2014
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AVS:
Mungy, the first cells were most certainly simple. Abiogenesis predicts this and is based on this.
1. How do we know the first cells were most certainly simple? 2. Why and how does "Abiogenesis" predict that the first cells were most certainly simple? 3. How and why is "Abiogenesis" based upon the prediction that the first cells were most certainly simple? 4. Define what you mean by "cell." 5. Define what you mean by "simple" as it refers to the cell in Q4. Permit me to present what I think AVS meant to say: Mungy, the first cells were most certainly simpler than the simplest know extant cells. Abiogenesis predicts that the earliest cells were nothing like extant cells and is based upon the unfounded non-scientific presupposition that there was some "simple" precursor to the simplest extant cells. It matters not that there is no theory of how to get from some hypo-theoretical simple precursor "proto-cell" to cells as we actually know them to be. But tt must have happened. Therefore you're ignorant.Mung
April 24, 2014
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This is why you guys are the worst. You are the manifestation of the "god of the gaps" argument. You prey on the gaps in science, making it seem like we can't explain things and using it as evidence. You don't realize how slow of a process science is and how difficult it is to study these topics. Unfortunately for you, these tings will eventually be explained and your gaps will get smaller and smaller until they don't exist anymore.AVS
April 24, 2014
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Well, AVS, it's just that step-by-step hand-waving isn't quite yet the art you need it to be. But keep at it!Mung
April 24, 2014
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gpuccio:
Mung, BA and others: I think that there is no real fun in debating OOL theories. It’s so easy to win! That’s why I usually prefer macroevolution. The game is more entertaining there.
I, on the other hand, am a reductive ID'ist. Reduce things as much as you like, they still don't have an answer. The entire ID community, imo, should focus on the simplest living organisms out there. There will still be no explanation. You accept common descent. VJ Torley accepts common descent. Many other IDists accept common descent. Why? Is it because that's what the evidence indicates? If so, why focus at all on macroevolution? Are there not enough protein families without known ancestors within prokaryotes!? If the evolutionists and the materialists cannot even explain the simplest cell, or the evolutionary relationships between the simplest cells, why take seriously anything they may say about common descent? Why complicate things? my .02 liraMung
April 24, 2014
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Are you kidding me Barb? "Detailed step-by-step instructions"? It would take volumes of books to do that for all those questions. Not only that but science is still working on many of the steps, if not most of them and you know this. You're just asking questions that you know science hasn't found the answer to yet, and you think you're oh so smart for it. You're not. You and your friends here are a bunch of peckerwood jackasses, most of whom don't know the first thing about biology and science in general. I'm not here to educate you, if you want to learn more about all these things enroll in a biology program at a University. Something tells me you wouldn't last a semester. =)AVS
April 24, 2014
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AVS responds, How did nature figure this out? How did nature determine what radical changes needed to be made, and whHow did nature figure this out? How did nature determine what radical changes needed to be made, and where they needed to be made, and when this process began and ended? Evolution. The changes did not need to be made all at once, it is symbiosis. Both organisms could survive and develop mechanisms by which they rely on each other. Step by step detailed instructions, please. Cite a relevant article that shows how these mechanisms developed and how symbiosis developed. “Evolution” isn’t an answer, it’s a cop out. How, exactly, did this membrane come to be? What steps were required for the membrane to hold it what the cell needs to function and to keep out potentially damaging molecules? Membranes are formed by the amphiphilic nature of molecules. Membranes that allowed molecules in that the cell needed were advantageous, membranes that allowed damaging molecules in lead to death of the cell. Again, detailed step by step instructions are needed. How did the amphiphilic nature of molecules develop by an unguided process? How did an unguided process “know” which molecules were advantageous to begin with? Without a membrane, a cell could not exist. The cell (and its contents) must be protected from water and the water-repellent fats of the membrane perform this task. But to form a membrane, a protein synthetic “apparatus” is needed—and this apparatus can function only if it’s held together by a membrane. Which came first? How did nature determine the order of these chemical reactions? Random sampling. Chemical pathways in the cell a lot of the time don’t have a definite order, or timing. Products are simply generated and they diffuse away. Regulation is the more important step. Hundreds of thousands of chemical reactions occur simultaneously in cells each day without any problems—and this all developed due to randomness? No, sorry. Not an answer. Another cop out. How did nature determine the order for the amino acids to be linked in order for proteins to be formed? Specific proteins have a specific order. In terms of evolution, any order of amino acids can be sampled, the primary structure that provides a new function though can benefit the organism. “Any” order of amino acids? No. Only 20 kinds of amino acids are needed to form proteins, and all those must be “left-handed” forms. Without that happening, you don’t have a cell. And you don’t have life. And then, after getting the 20 specific kinds, they have to be lined up in the right order for each distinctive protein, and in the exact shape required for each one. A typical protein has about one hundred amino acids and contains many thousands of atoms. In its life processes a living cell uses some 200,000 proteins. Two thousand of them are enzymes, special proteins without which the cell cannot survive. What are the chances of these enzymes forming at random in the soup—if you had the soup? One chance in 10^40,000. [This is 1 followed by 40,000 zeros.] Stated differently, the chance is the same as rolling dice and getting 50,000 sixes in a row. And that is for only 2,000 of the 200,000 needed for a living cell.8 So to get them all, roll 5,000,000 more sixes in a row! How does the protein find its way from where it was made to where it is needed? Signal sequences. Which came from where? And how did they develop? So which came first? All of these chicken or the egg examples have to do with cells as we know them today. There are many possibilities for how these processes occurred in the first cells. Detailed step by step instructions, please. Cite a relevant article showing how evolution did this.Barb
April 24, 2014
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Here ya go barb. 1.Evolution. The changes did not need to be made all at once, it is symbiosis. Both organisms could survive and develop mechanisms by which they rely on each other. 2.Membranes are formed by the amphiphilic nature of molecules. Membranes that allowed molecules in that the cell needed were advantageous, membranes that allowed damaging molecules in lead to death of the cell. 3.Random sampling. Chemical pathways in the cell a lot of the time don’t have a definite order, or timing. Products are simply generated and they diffuse away. Regulation is the more important step. 4.Specific proteins have a specific order. In terms of evolution, any order of amino acids can be sampled, the primary structure that provides a new function though can benefit the organism. 5.Signal sequences. 6.All of these chicken or the egg examples have to do with cells as we know them today. There are many possibilities for how these processes occurred in the first cells.AVS
April 24, 2014
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Answer the questions in my post if you can, AVS.Barb
April 24, 2014
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Barbie, for the last time, I never said today's prokaryotes are simple. They are far from simple. You guys couldn't quote a source without twisting the meaning if your life depended on it.AVS
April 24, 2014
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Oh joey, do you really want to bring that up again? The fact is that protein folding is almost entirely based on its primary structure. Few proteins have an absolute requirement for folding, most proteins can fold on their own in vitro, chaperones are used primarily to stop aggregation and interactions that would cause misfolding in vivo. Even look at wiki, it blatantly says "The common perception that chaperones are concerned primarily with protein folding is incorrect." You have no idea what you are talking about. You and your friends are a joke. I could have a better conversation about biology with a wall.AVS
April 24, 2014
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AVS continues,
It is completely illogical to think that the abiogenesis of the first cell resulted in a complex organism like those seen in nature today. Logic points to the first cells being extremely simple, in the process of abiogenesis.
Okay, then, explain some things to me. We know that all living cells fall into two major categories—those with a nucleus (eukaryotic) and those without (prokaryotic). Human, animal, and plant cells have a nucleus. Bacterial cells do not. Since prokaryotic cells are relatively less complex than eukaryotic cells, many believe that animal and plant cells must have evolved from bacterial cells. In fact, many teach that for millions of years, some “simple” prokaryotic cells swallowed other cells but did not digest them. Instead, the theory goes, unintelligent “nature” figured out a way not only to make radical changes in the function of the ingested cells but also to keep the adapted cells inside of the “host” cell when it replicated. [Encyclopædia Britannica, CD 2003, “Cell,” “The Mitochondrion and the Chloroplast,” subhead, “The Endosymbiont Hypothesis.”] How did nature figure this out? How did nature determine what radical changes needed to be made, and where they needed to be made, and when this process began and ended? Prokaryotic cells, though aren’t as simple as AVS would like for them to be. They have a semipermeable cell membrane with protein molecules that act as security guards for the cell, only allowing in what the cell requires, such as oxygen molecules. Some of these proteins have a hole through the middle of them that allows only specific types of molecules in and out of the cell. Other proteins are open on one side of the cell membrane and closed on the other. They have a docking site shaped to fit a specific substance. When that substance docks, the other end of the protein opens and releases the cargo through the membrane. All this activity is happening on the surface of even the simplest of cells. How, exactly, did this membrane come to be? What steps were required for the membrane to hold it what the cell needs to function and to keep out potentially damaging molecules? We also know that inside a prokaryotic cell is a watery fluid that is rich in nutrients, salts, and other substances. The cell uses these raw ingredients to manufacture the products it needs. But the process is not haphazard. The cell organizes thousands of chemical reactions so that they take place in a specific order and according to a set timetable. How did nature determine the order of these chemical reactions? A cell spends a lot of its time making proteins. The cell accomplishes this by making basic building blocks (amino acids), which are then delivered to ribosomes, which in turn link the amino acids in a precise order to form a specific protein. How did nature determine the order for the amino acids to be linked in order for proteins to be formed? This and other cell functions are guided by DNA. From the DNA, the ribosome receives a copy of detailed instructions that tell it which protein to build and how to build it. Each one folds into a unique three-dimensional shape. It is this shape that determines the specialized job that the protein will do. How does the protein find its way from where it was made to where it is needed? Also, the complex molecules in the simplest living thing cannot reproduce alone. Outside the cell, they break down. Inside the cell, they cannot reproduce without the help of other complex molecules. For example, enzymes are needed to produce a special energy molecule called adenosine triphosphate (ATP), but energy from ATP is needed to produce enzymes. Similarly, DNA is required to make enzymes, but enzymes are required to make DNA. Also, other proteins can be made only by a cell, but a cell can be made only with proteins. So which came first? Here’s what a few scientists have to say on the matter: The book Molecules to Living Cells explains that “the synthesis of the small-molecule building blocks is complex in itself.” It adds, however, that making such molecules “is child’s play in comparison to what must have followed in order to generate the first living cell.” What are the chances of atoms collecting together to form the simplest self-reproducing cell? In his book A Guided Tour of the Living Cell, Nobel Prize-winning scientist Christian de Duve admits: “If you equate the probability of the birth of a bacterial cell to that of the chance assembly of its component atoms, even eternity will not suffice to produce one for you.” Microbiologist Radu Popa in 2004 asked: “How can nature make life if we failed with all the experimental conditions controlled?” He also stated: “The complexity of the mechanisms required for the functioning of a living cell is so large that a simultaneous emergence by chance seems impossible.” [Between Necessity and Probability: Searching for the Definition and Origin of Life, by Radu Popa, 2004, p. 126-127, 129]Barb
April 24, 2014
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AVS is a bluffing poseur living in denial. At best AVS is a first year biology student- first year of middle school. As for chaperones aiding protein folding, AVS totally ate that one, but good thing the ignoramus also has a short memory. AVS may be ignorant but he just can't remember.Joe
April 24, 2014
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AVS: I have already told you what the difficulty is with the term "protocell".
Using the prefix “proto” doesn’t add any useful information in our quest to understand early life; rather it typically obscures, giving us the impression that we are talking about a real entity, something that really existed, something that — in vague and unspecified ways amenable to the materialist imagination — helped bridge the gap from chemicals to “real” cells.
You approach is precisely the same. Claiming, not showing, that there was some early entity that -- in thoroughly vague and unspecified ways -- helped bridge the gap from chemicals to what we see today. A protocell is not a real thing. It is a hypothetical. Hypotheticals themselves aren't bad, as long as we recognize them as such. But when they are used, as so many materialists do, as though they exist, as though they provide an explanation for something, then we are seeing self-deception. And by the way, it is sad to see that your level of discourse has not improved one bit. Little substance. Lots of snark and name calling. We had two very substantive threads on abiogenesis where you had every opportunity to put some meat on the completely vague and baseless assertions you have been throwing around. Crickets . . .Eric Anderson
April 24, 2014
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Oh Barbie, do you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation? Did you ever get that stick out of your rear-end? You want to bring this up again Joe? Because I assure you, you did not correct me about anything. You don't know jack about protein folding and you've demonstrated it.AVS
April 24, 2014
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YOU are laughable, AVS. You are also an ass. And you are definitely simple. But anyway you can deny the facts all you want but the evidence demonstrates that, for one, I corrected you with respect to chaperones and protein folding.Joe
April 24, 2014
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"I already had this conversation here, maybe a month ago." Like a dog returning to its vomit.Barb
April 24, 2014
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Again with the word twisting Johnny. I never said the process was simple. I said the first cells were incredibly simple, relative to today's cells. I already had this conversation here, maybe a month ago. Feel free to look back at the ool posts to find it.AVS
April 24, 2014
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You've corrected me on something, Joe? That's laughable. You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground.AVS
April 24, 2014
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