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God and Science Redux: Lawrence Krauss

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A friend alerted me to this piece by Lawrence Krauss from the Wall Street Journal.

Krauss writes:

“J.B.S. Haldane, an evolutionary biologist and a founder of population genetics, understood that science is by necessity an atheistic discipline. As Haldane so aptly described it, one cannot proceed with the process of scientific discovery if one assumes a “god, angel, or devil” will interfere with one’s experiments. God is, of necessity, irrelevant in science.

Faced with the remarkable success of science to explain the workings of the physical world, many, indeed probably most, scientists understandably react as Haldane did. Namely, they extrapolate the atheism of science to a more general atheism.”

No surprise here. But he concludes with

“Finally, it is worth pointing out that these issues are not purely academic. The current crisis in Iran has laid bare the striking inconsistency between a world built on reason and a world built on religious dogma.”

Perhaps the most important contribution an honest assessment of the incompatibility between science and religious doctrine can provide is to make it starkly clear that in human affairs — as well as in the rest of the physical world — reason is the better guide.”

Reason is a better guide than what? Religion? Which religion? All religions? What empircal data does Krauss have to back up this, supposedly, scientific claim. For that matter, what precisely does it mean for reason to be a “better guide”? Better how? This is just another example of a scientist making unsubstantiated philosophical statements in the name of science. It would be interesting to hear how Krauss would explain what went wrong with “reason” with such well known atheists like Stalin or Hitler. How was “reason” a better guide with those guys? Perhaps Krauss could begin by telling us what he means by “reason” in the first place.

It always amazes me how those who claim the high road of science and scientific reasoning so easily abandon the basic rules of logic and reason when it doesn’t seem to suit their argument. He could start by telling us how he knows scientifically that the properties of the cosmos are such that no deity (assuming a deity exists), could take any action whatsoever that would have empirical consequences in what we call Nature, even in principle. If Krauss has no scientific answer to that question (and he doesn’t), then how does he know that the properties of our cosmos are such that miracles can not take place, even in principle? Just because science tells us how babies are formed and born does not mean that in one instance, at least, something quite extraordinary took place. Just because Krauss and his fellow atheists don’t accept such things as true or even possbile doesn’t mean they aren’t. And appealing to science is of little help to his case, since neither he nor anyone else has come up with a detailed, testable, (and potenitally falsifiable) scientific model that eliminates the possibility of miracles from ever occuring in Nature.

Comments
I believe mine was a satirical point about how the mere act of writing in a book that it is the word of god does not make it that book inerrant. It is a shame you felt that this issue had to be brushed under the carpet.Excession
July 1, 2009
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Excession, To be honest I don't remember what they said. I think it was some kind of insulting sarcasm. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, and had the highest respect for your adversary, you just happened to have written it that way :)Clive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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Yes, there were two people named Paul and Timothy. Letters written in Paul's name and addressed to Timothy would benefit from Paul's borrowed authority. That kind of thing happened all the time. This is well-acknowledged among Biblical scholars (except for a few inerrantists).David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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Clive, Is there a reason why you recently deleted mine and Nnoel's comments on this thread?Excession
July 1, 2009
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Excession, ------"Clive, is there any reason why you have started deleting peoples comments?" I haven't just started, I've been deleting them since I became moderator. That's what moderators do. I just don't do it very often.Clive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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My Dear David, Surely you know better than that. That there was a man named Timothy, who was the recipient of the letters, and a man named Paul, who wrote them, is not a minority hold-out view. There is a man named David that is a recipient of this message, and a guy named Clive who is writing it at a certain time in which they both live. Take the two people out of the scenario, and make the time frame a few centuries later, and convince yourself that that correspondence makes more sense? "Timothy kept company behind bars with Paul. More than once he nearly died. He was a faithful courier for Paul. He served the church at Ephesus, in Asia Minor, where members were predominantly gentile...." http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn34/profilesfaithtimothy.htm Sometimes I think you just like to play devil's advocate, or you just like to argue for the sake of it.Clive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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Clive, is there any reason why you have started deleting peoples comments?Excession
July 1, 2009
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It's absurd to assert that the Bible is inerrant given the huge number of contradictions it contains. A striking example is that the gospels don't even agree on something as fundamental as when Jesus died. The Gospel of Mark (chapter 14) says that Jesus had the Passover dinner with his disciples (the Last Supper). The next day he was sentenced to death and was crucified at the third hour. The Gospel of John (chapter 19) says that Jesus was sentenced to death at the sixth hour of the day of preparation for Passover and was crucified sometime after that. They cannot both be right. At least one of the two is false. The Bible is not the inerrant word of God, no matter how much you want it to be. And that particular contradiction is just the tip of the iceberg.mereologist
July 1, 2009
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Clive, now you're just messing with me. There's no consensus on your side, just a minority holdout view. The vast majority of scholars outside conservative evangelicalism (that is, scholars without a religious need to defend their authenticity) agree with me. On the other hand, they're happy to defend Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philemon, Galatians, Philipians, etc. as genuine, so it's not like they're opposed to Pauline authorship as such.David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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David Kellogg, My own view is in line with the scholarly consensus that Paul did write the Pastoral Epistles and Ephesians.Clive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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Clive, my view is in line with the scholarly consensus that Paul didn't write the Pastoral Epistles (1 and 2 Tim and Titus). I don't think he wrote Ephesians either, which is also a mainstream view. Why would they be identified as from Paul to Timothy? To give them weight and authority for their actual audience.David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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Dear David Kellogg, ------"Well, if you’re referring of 2 Tim 3:16, that epistle was almost surely not written by Paul but composed in the second century. But you and I are unlikely to agree on this." You're right, we won't agree on that at all. Was 1st Timothy also written by some unknown person? and written to Timothy years after Timothy died? All you have to do is read the letter, and you'll, hopefully, see how absurd it would be to be written by anyone other than Paul to a guy named Timothy. "St. Paul write this Epistle to his BELOVED TIMOTHY, being then bishop of Ephesus, to instruct him in the duties of a bishop, both in respect to himself and to his charge; and that he ought to be well informed of the good morals of those on whom he was to impose hands: Impose not hands lightly upon any man. He tells him also how he should behave towards his clergy. The Epistle was written about 33 years after our Lord’s Ascension; but where it was written is uncertain: the more general opinion is, that it was in Macedonia." http://www.tldm.org/bible/new%20testament/1timothy.htmClive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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The Bible does say that it is inspired (out-breathed) from God.
Well, if you're referring of 2 Tim 3:16, that epistle was almost surely not written by Paul but composed in the second century. But you and I are unlikely to agree on this.David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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Dear David Kellogg, ------"“The Bible” didn’t exist at the time the Bible was written, so the statement “The Bible clearly identifies itself as the word of God” is wrong." The Bible does say that it is inspired (out-breathed) from God. Whether this was written before or after the canonization process doesn't matter, for the Epistles, Gospels, and Revelation were already widely used among the churches before the canonization. Paul refers to Luke as scripture, Peter refers to Paul as scripture, these guys knew each others writings, as did the church fathers. You could recreate the New Testament based on references from the church father's writings alone.Clive Hayden
July 1, 2009
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The Bible is inerrant. Let’s first spell out logically why the Bible can’t have errors: 1. God cannot err. 2. The Bible is the word of God. 3. Therefore, the Bible cannot err. This is a valid syllogism; if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true. The Bible clearly identifies itself as the word of God as well as stating that God cannot err.
"The Bible" didn't exist at the time the Bible was written, so the statement "The Bible clearly identifies itself as the word of God" is wrong. I'd question the second premise and probably the first. But hey, that's just me.David Kellogg
July 1, 2009
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Barb, your whole post is full of holes, I've not the time to explain fully, but I'll try.
Because we don’t misquote, misapply, or mistranslate the scriptures.
You say that, and the people that misquote say that, who am I too believe??
If I mistranslate a post you make or take your quote out of context, Nnoel, is it your fault or mine? It’s not that hard to figure out.
We both human, we both using imperfect communication techniques, are you judging me or taking all the blame? I dont get it.
The Bible does not claim that the earth is the center of the world (or universe). You’ll have to reference a scripture for me, because I can’t find one right now. Ptolemy, about 150 years after Jesus’ birth, taught that the motionless earth was the center of the universe. His error stayed largely unquestioned until the time of Polish astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543). The sun, he argued, not the earth, is the center of the solar system. In this case, the problem belongs squarely on the shoulders of humans, not the Bible.
Galileo got excommunicated by the church for saying that the earth went round the sun, ask the church what evidence they used
The Bible is inerrant. Let’s first spell out logically why the Bible can’t have errors: 1. God cannot err. 2. The Bible is the word of God. 3. Therefore, the Bible cannot err.
Circular logic
This is a valid syllogism; if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true. The Bible clearly identifies itself as the word of God as well as stating that God cannot err. Again, remember what St. Augustine stated: the problem is more likely with you than with the Bible. Don’t assume that divergent accounts are contradictory. Also, be careful that you understand the context of the passage you’re reading. Finally, don’t presume that the Bible approves of all that it records. The Bible does not approve of slavery. This was heavily regulated in ancient Israel with provisions for slaves to leave their owners. There is no justification for using the Bible to promote slavery and anyone who’s studied the Bible carefully can tell you this, Nnoel.
Salvery is wrong, if you give a manual on how to rape people politely, I dont think it would be well received
“The fact that there WERE people that DID believe these things and DID base those beliefs on the bible, leads me to believe that the bible is ripe for cherry picking, which is the only way to use it because of all the contradictions therein.”
Nnoel, you are undisputably the expert on cherry-picking the Bible. You and whoever created that Skeptics Annotated Bible.
Well played, good cheap shot sir!
I’ll repeat this for your benefit: there are NO biblical contradictions. There are only verses that you misunderstand, misapply, or fail to read the context.
My misunderstanding was created by your god according to your beliefs, he created me this way (he created everything), and because I [try] and apply my intelligence, I'm sentencing myself, but I was still built in a way that I would invariably do so, (like a self descructing robot, bad robot!) [above needs more explination, but if you really trying to understand my point of view you'll get there]
“These are facts, they are not debatable.”
They are not facts and they ae eminently debatable, as I’ve just proven.
'Facts' refers to people that have different opinions about the [T]ruth, so very many versions of [T]ruth is not debatable (cleared that one up last post, either didn't read it or your cherry picking :P)
“Closing your eyes to how others have falsely translated and interpreted the bible, and thus believing YOU are incapable of making the same mistake (you are only human are you not?) leads you to judge others, and by your own beliefs (or beliefs of others that read the bible), judgment is the sole domain of ‘God’ (queue bible verses to show me why you MAY judge people).”
I don’t dispute that people have falsely translated the Bible. I can only read and study and, if needed, pray for further understanding. Generally, though, I believe that I am on the right track spiritually speaking.
You say so, others like you would argue with you, I think you all arguing over an imaginary bus (thats taking you all to heaven)
Your attitude is that since people make mistakes, the Bible can’t be trusted. Nnoel, that is ludicrous. People make mistakes in science, too; does that mean that science can be trusted? People make mistakes when recording history, too; does that mean that all of recorded history can’t be trusted?
History is written by the victors, science cannot be trusted 100%, you BELIEVE you are 100% correct in your choice of religious beliefs, and wont admit it, or will, but only to a very small degree of error
You argue that science is self-correcting. Why can’t religion also be self-correcting? The Bible likens spiritual understanding to a light that “keeps getting brighter” as in a sunrise. Religious people don’t know everything. The more they study and read, the more their understanding grows.
This whole blog is an attempt to get science to self correct Religion can be self correcting, when will Christianity self correct that jesus is NOT the only way to heaven? Ludicrous suggestion because Christianity is not self correcting (special place in hell and all that) Self Correcting means incorporating knowledge from varied sources where ever value is found, but I'm not seen much of that, I might be wrong about the non-self-correcting nature, but the Christianity I've seen certainly isn't
As far as what you posted regarding indefinite torture goes, you should be aware that not all religions teach the doctrine of hellfire. Mine doesn’t.
lol, you choose what to believe, and your entitled to that freedom, but dont expect others not to believe that hell is not full of homosexuals and people that eat shellfish Love you!Nnoel
July 1, 2009
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The Bible is inerrant. Let’s first spell out logically why the Bible can’t have errors: 1. God cannot err. 2. The Bible is the word of God. 3. Therefore, the Bible cannot err.
Did god write the bible, or did someone write it for him using their INTERPRETATION of the gods word?pkettley
July 1, 2009
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This is a pretty good read and debate, out side the box for the moment. If two people worshipped or believed in the same god, however one person is an accountant and goes to church and all that, while the other (a suicide bomber) blows up a plane in the name of god. Is that not down to INTERPRETATION, or were they reading the wrong version of the bible? P.S : "I'm not religious, so I would not preach to me about it. I'm merely reading this debate, so any comments towards my spelling and that. Is judging someone with an opinion the world, thus your no better than anyone else on this planet."pkettley
July 1, 2009
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Nnoel writes: "the world is flat, bats are aves (birds), the earth is the centre of the world, slavery is OK, the bible is inerrant. These are all things that people have believed, and used the bible as evidence in support of their ‘Truth’. Why are you so different?" Because we don’t misquote, misapply, or mistranslate the scriptures. To wit: “There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth.” (Isaiah 40:22). The book “Galileo Goes to Jail”, which discusses scientific and religious myths, also explains that most people including scientists believed that the earth was round. This can be traced back to ancient Greece. The only people I’ve seen who trot out this obviously false example regarding the Bible are atheists who obviously don’t know what they’re talking about. Genesis 2:19 is commonly translated as “flying creatures” which is the only verse I can find that might be mistranslated where bats are mistaken for birds. Again, this is the fault of the translators, not the author of the Bible. If I mistranslate a post you make or take your quote out of context, Nnoel, is it your fault or mine? It’s not that hard to figure out. The Bible does not claim that the earth is the center of the world (or universe). You’ll have to reference a scripture for me, because I can’t find one right now. Ptolemy, about 150 years after Jesus’ birth, taught that the motionless earth was the center of the universe. His error stayed largely unquestioned until the time of Polish astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543). The sun, he argued, not the earth, is the center of the solar system. In this case, the problem belongs squarely on the shoulders of humans, not the Bible. The Bible is inerrant. Let’s first spell out logically why the Bible can’t have errors: 1. God cannot err. 2. The Bible is the word of God. 3. Therefore, the Bible cannot err. This is a valid syllogism; if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true. The Bible clearly identifies itself as the word of God as well as stating that God cannot err. Again, remember what St. Augustine stated: the problem is more likely with you than with the Bible. Don’t assume that divergent accounts are contradictory. Also, be careful that you understand the context of the passage you’re reading. Finally, don’t presume that the Bible approves of all that it records. The Bible does not approve of slavery. This was heavily regulated in ancient Israel with provisions for slaves to leave their owners. There is no justification for using the Bible to promote slavery and anyone who’s studied the Bible carefully can tell you this, Nnoel. "The fact that there WERE people that DID believe these things and DID base those beliefs on the bible, leads me to believe that the bible is ripe for cherry picking, which is the only way to use it because of all the contradictions therein." Nnoel, you are undisputably the expert on cherry-picking the Bible. You and whoever created that Skeptics Annotated Bible. I’ll repeat this for your benefit: there are NO biblical contradictions. There are only verses that you misunderstand, misapply, or fail to read the context. "These are facts, they are not debatable." They are not facts and they ae eminently debatable, as I've just proven. "Closing your eyes to how others have falsely translated and interpreted the bible, and thus believing YOU are incapable of making the same mistake (you are only human are you not?) leads you to judge others, and by your own beliefs (or beliefs of others that read the bible), judgment is the sole domain of ‘God’ (queue bible verses to show me why you MAY judge people)." I don’t dispute that people have falsely translated the Bible. I can only read and study and, if needed, pray for further understanding. Generally, though, I believe that I am on the right track spiritually speaking. Your attitude is that since people make mistakes, the Bible can’t be trusted. Nnoel, that is ludicrous. People make mistakes in science, too; does that mean that science can be trusted? People make mistakes when recording history, too; does that mean that all of recorded history can’t be trusted? You argue that science is self-correcting. Why can't religion also be self-correcting? The Bible likens spiritual understanding to a light that "keeps getting brighter" as in a sunrise. Religious people don't know everything. The more they study and read, the more their understanding grows. As far as what you posted regarding indefinite torture goes, you should be aware that not all religions teach the doctrine of hellfire. Mine doesn't.Barb
July 1, 2009
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It most certainly is debatable.
The stuff not debatable is the fact that people have done atrocities in the name of 'god', and that they have varied beliefs (i'm sure I could find some that would tell you even YOU are going to hell). Those things are not debatable, I was not referring to the naming issue, that was a small point, and I was trying to show it is probably cause each name is a different god. You dont answer any of my difficult points (you cherry pick my comment), and use my own words in a manner I never intended them used (saying I said something was not debatable, but i was actually referring to something else) Above, where I say 'use my own words..', i could almost hear 'god' in my head say those words about the bible. You read my words, and you interpreted them incorrectly, it's ok, I forgive you, you meant no harm, your only human and your reading words written by a human who doesn't always get things right (or explain things well)... This is an excellent example of the fallibility of men don't you think? And we are even talking the same language! Please, have any personal beliefs you like, please, do everything in your power that you feel necessary to peacefully convince me of your beliefs, I dont mind. But, after everything I've shown you, all the problems in transalation, absurdity of the 'solution' provided by god, and everything else, I do have issues when religious people attempt to IMPOSE their beliefs on others, using Governments to create laws and the like. My point is clear as day. If you have issues with assisted suicide or homosexuals (i dont know your positions on these things), it is because of INTERPRETATION of the bible, not because of the [T]ruth in the bible, because that can only be an interpretation. If you wont admit that I make a good point then either you are deluding yourself or we ARE speaking a different language. [oppinion follows] Relating all this to the article, surely not making the assumption of a creator or any 'one true' religion has served science well thus far?Nnoel
July 1, 2009
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Nnoel, "Referring to your statement that jesus was/spoke from the burning bush, well I’m glad Yahweh/Yeshua/Elohim (to name a few) saw fit to make it so complicated to understand (without your help of course) and then made me in such a way that the inconsistencies convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt against his very existence." Sorry, Nnoell, don't mean to hark on you, but what you stated above has to be the biggest stack of baloney I've ever heard. You mean to tell me that you've spent all this time "investigating" the "un-debatable facts" of the bible's untruth, and you can't take the time to understand what Jesus was talking about when he stated "Before Abraham was 'I AM?'" Who's fault is that? God's? It's his fault that you don't understand that, yet you think you know so much about the bible through your superior knowledge? And it's really not as complicated as you imply: Moses was on the mountain talking to "The Angel of The Lord" (which the scriptures in Exodus make clear is God Himself). Moses asks the Angel "who should I say sent me?" And the angel said "You are to say I AM sent you" etc... Then we have Jesus in the 8th Chapter of John, disputing with the Jewish leaders about his identity. They knew Exodus very well. So when Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM," they were ready to stone him for blasphemy because he claimed to be the Eternal God. You see, he not only goes back to Moses, but further back - as far back as any Jew could recall, to Abraham, and states he existed before him. And not only that, he says "I AM" inferring eternity, and a clear name for God - YHWH (the tetragrammaton), or Yahweh. You see the name really isn't Jehovah - that's a Geman corruption of the name (from JHVH in German). What's so complicated about that? It's a lot less complicated than your convoluted understanding of the reasons for the names of God, etc. It most certainly is debatable. And BTW, I'm not preaching to you. You challenged my beliefs, and I'm defending them. So let me get this straight - God made his message too complicated for me, so I'm going to make an even more complicated defense of his non-existence. Umm, right.CannuckianYankee
July 1, 2009
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CannuckianYankee, I come here to understand ID, but strangly someone always brings up the christian god, which I dont need to understad, I know it is all just made up.
That seems rather dogmatic. Well perhaps they are not debatable any more for you because you seem to have given up understanding them.
Umm, you then go on to confirm what I call 'not debatable', so, umm, yeah, thanks for agreeing with me. If you were God, and you loved everyone SO much, and you KNEW the number of innocent people that would go through INFINITY of INFATHOMOBLE TORTURE because they are deceived (so truely innocent, wool over their eyes and all that), why, in your infinite ability, would you choose a solution that ALLOWS that to happen??? (remember how much it would hurt you as god to see them go through that!) Whats that old quote...
The Riddle of Epicurus If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to then he is not omnipotent. If He is able, but not willing then He is malevolent. If He is both able and willing then whence cometh evil? If He is neither able nor willing then why call Him God?
Nnoel
July 1, 2009
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Thank you for preaching at me, but you only give two points of view of interpreting the OT, and you miss one altogether, even tho I hinted at it in the post you responded to. Outside of Jewish and Christian belief, the stories in the bible have been taken from others sources, that is again a non-debatable fact. If you truly read the 'context' of the old testament, and include other historical facts, situations, geo-political issues, I would be surprised if you walk away with the same opinions. A good example is the different names in the bible for god, surely one god has one name, but if you do your research properly you will find the reason for so many different names of god in the bible. I wonder if you can guess that reason? Referring to your statement that jesus was/spoke from the burning bush, well I'm glad Yahweh/Yeshua/Elohim (to name a few) saw fit to make it so complicated to understand (without your help of course) and then made me in such a way that the inconsistencies convince me beyond a shadow of a doubt against his very existence. You see, you are thinking inside a box that the bible creates for you, and you parrot the reasons for things as the bible teaches, but if YOU were all about love and capable of ANYTHING, would you make a tribe in a desert somewhere slaughter a nation of people (with your help), oh and spare the virgins will you, my tribes mighty warriors need people to rape after they done (I like rewarding the faithful), or would you extend your LOVE to EVERYONE! The 'promise of salvation' has taken so many years to implement, and along the way, people die, people suffer, god condones a few rapes, a few murders, and you praise him for this 'solution'. The absurdity of it can only lead you to delusion, or the truth that it is all just a fabrication (e.g. if there is a god/something more, then it is not described in the bible. period) Step outside the box, think for yourself, the OT that you portray is an excuse, it is not a solution. Love you! P.S. not fours years thanks, 19 years, 4 years of Sundays Services and Wednesdays bible studies, but another 15 or so pretty much the same but in other churches.Nnoel
July 1, 2009
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Nnoell, "The fact that there WERE people that DID believe these things and DID base those beliefs on the bible, leads me to believe that the bible is ripe for cherry picking, which is the only way to use it because of all the contradictions therein. These are facts, they are not debatable." That seems rather dogmatic. Well perhaps they are not debatable any more for you because you seem to have given up understanding them. People can twist anything - and people have twisted the bible to their own ends - that's true. In fact Jesus and the apostles predicted that people would do just that. You're not telling us anything we don't already know or expect. Christian apologists make it their profession to address the distortions people have made of the scriptures in particular - and there are many distortions. Let me ask you this - are you using the bible to your own ends, or are you truly making an attempt to understanding what is in it? You came to this site (I'm not sure when) with the professed intention of wanting to understand, but I can't help seeing a different motive than that. Perhaps I'm wrong, as I'm known to be.CannuckianYankee
July 1, 2009
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Well Nnoell, Not having grown up in a Christian home - my father was a skeptic, and my mother dabled in different spiritualist churches and liberal churches, my upbringing was decidedly atheistic. The only reason my mother attended church was so she could sing in the choir. There was no discussion about religin in my family whatsoever. So you can see that I had every reason to be skeptical about the church as well. I became a believer inspite of all this - and that was nearly 30 years ago. I discovered that the Old Testament was the story of a group of people in a hostile world, who were brought about the world by a patient and loving God, and furthermore, it didn't end in the Old Testament, but was fulfilled in the New. So you and I were given very different views of the Jewish religion. I'm not Jewish, but I can't condemn the Jewish religion too harshly, when it was the sacrifices and dedication of many of those people of old, who - led by God, brought us the promise. Were they perfect in that? By no means. The OT is essentially the story of human beings' failure to abide by the simple demands of a patient and loving God - who got all those "thou shalt nots" because they couldn't obey the simple rules that were given to them for their own good. And in all of this was the planning and bringing forth of a greater promise. I think the key is to not take what KF calls a "hyperskeptical" view - and I would translate that into a view of the OT, but to see the scars for what they teach in the larger scheme of things. You have to read these things in the larger context, and not in the hyperskeptical eisegesis of the modern liberals, who make no attempt whatsoever to understand what is going on. Their only motivation is to show what they perceive as the "more correct" - Dawkins view of God. Rather narrow, if you ask me. There are two ways of reading the scripture - (well there are realy more than two, but two opposing) - One is exegetical, which is to "take out" only that which the authors intended to convey within their context, and not within our modern context. The other is eisegetical, which means to put into the scriptures what is not there, from our own prejudicial understanding - having not lived in the time of the OT, but adding a perspective that is completely foreign to the intentions and understandings of the authors who lived in that time. What the modern skeptics do is eisegesis. They are forced to take everything out of the real context in order to put in their own prejudicial meaning and logic, which doesn't work. It doesn't work because the OT starts from a particular point of reference, and that reference develops as the people of the book become more familiar with the workings of God among them; and indeed more rebellious towards his guidance - bringing upon themselves more and more reckoning with his absolute authority - which is intended for their good. But God doesn't force them into anything they haven't chosen for themselves. His laws are absolute - yes, but they are free to disobey them - but with consequences. So you see a God who is prejudice and murderous, while I see a God who included a particular race of people in the promise of salvation for the entire world - fulfilled in the man who sacrificed himself to that end. And who was the only one worthy because he in-fact was God in the flesh. You don't get to the New Testament without going through the Old. BTW, the skeptics anotated bible missed that point altogether. One of their most ridiculous points was to suggest that the bible is confused as to whether God is spirit or flesh. They did not understand the concept of "incarnation." If you read the gospels carefully, you will see (particularly in John) that Jesus claimed to be the one who spoke to Moses in the burning bush - the "Angel of the Lord" - the "I AM," and thus, the one who also walked with Adam and Eve in the garden "in the cool of the day." Your SAB missed this point altogether. I think if you read them as critically as you read the bible, you would see how much more they missed because of their hyperskeptical eisegesis. Christianity is lived, not hyperskeptically dabbled into by four years in the sidelines of a church. Perhaps that's where the difference lies. For every story you can give me of someone who left the chuch because they didn't feel satisfied with the message - I can give you ten real stories of someone who lived and died by the truth - sacrificing the material but empty promises of this world for the larger hope - and in their deaths, satisfied that they had fought the good fight. And these would be people that I have personally known. One I knew - Jim Ziervogl, who died about 5 years ago - spent the better part of his life in Inland China as a missionary. Why? Because he truly cared about the Chinese people. With 100,000,000 Chinese converted or converting to Christianity, do you think that his life had an impact?CannuckianYankee
July 1, 2009
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CannuckianYankee, Thank you for the tips on literature, but I grew up (at least 4 years at this church) in a church that was heavily into getting an authentic view of jesus. We celebrated the jewish feasts, and our pastor could read Hebrew and all that. What i eventually realised is that the old testament is the story of tribe of people that went around warring with others nations, ranksacking, pilaging and raping as they went along, all because their God is a 'god of pure love'. umm, and people actually fall for that bolony! Your definition of love is a bit skewd if he read the old testament from start to finish and have a complete definition of 'love' from it. Love you all (not in an old testament fashion)Nnoel
July 1, 2009
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the world is flat, bats are aves (birds), the earth is the centre of the world, slavery is OK, the bible is inerrant. These are all things that people have believed, and used the bible as evidence in support of their 'Truth'. Why are you so different? The fact that there WERE people that DID believe these things and DID base those beliefs on the bible, leads me to believe that the bible is ripe for cherry picking, which is the only way to use it because of all the contradictions therein. These are facts, they are not debatable. Closing your eyes to how others have falsely translated and interpreted the bible, and thus believing YOU are incapable of making the same mistake (you are only human are you not?) leads you to judge others, and by your own beliefs (or beliefs of others that read the bible), judgment is the sole domain of 'God' (queue bible verses to show me why you MAY judge people) One could try to de-emphasize my point to show (and not very convincingly so) how others have used Darwins writing in the same manner as men have erroneously used the bible (a faithful's favourite is hitler, but he hated the jews because of Martin Luther's anti-semitic ravings) But that would not be a fair comparison because science acknowledges that it CAN be wrong, and WELCOMES correction, thats how it gets so good at what it does! But the bible says there is a special place in hell for anyone that changes the word of god (sorry cant find reference) Love you all! P.S. http://nobeliefs.com/luther.htm <- is the link if people have trouble with the aboveNnoel
July 1, 2009
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Nnoel, It might behoove you to read some of the scholarship from the other side of the fence instead of dissing it, and believing what you read from The Skeptics Annotated Bible. There is more than just one side to any story. You might want to start with N.T. Wright - who was mentioned in a recent post here. His "Jesus and the Victory of God" is well known as one of the hallmarks of modern biblical scholarship. Why? It's really quite simple - Because Wright believes that you can't understand Jesus or Christianity outside an understanding of the culture and context of 1st Century Judaism. Unlike other modern scholars, Wright sees through the skepticism of the "Quests for the Historical Jesus," in their dogmatic refusal to see Jesus as he was depicted in the Gospels and by the early church fathers. Get a faulty view of Jesus, and you miss the whole point of the Christian gospel. The "Jesus Seminar" and their groupies (and there are many of them) will give you any preposterous claim about Jesus and Christianity in order to avoid the inevitable evidence that he was as depicted in the most authoritative sources - those who knew him. And they (TJS) are the ones responsible for much of our cultures' popular understanding of Jesus and early Christian belief - found annually in Newsweek and Time. Now Wright is a great place to start, but there are many other great places you can also look to find a much more informed view of Christianity than where you have apparently been looking. Now I realize that the SAB is mainly about the scriptures, but they demonstrate that they know little about the scirptures. All they really do is "quote mine" from the scriptures to make their point. And what is their point? That the bible has nothing good to say. Do you really believe that's a ballanced view of the matter? But that's another discussion altogether.CannuckianYankee
July 1, 2009
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Nnoel, "And, just for your information, the Skeptics annotated bible is not there to be read and believed, it is there to show you points to ponder" Yeah, the SAB is really well done and definitely allows you to take a well-balanced look at the bible. I especially liked the link to the thubs up "good stuff" section, which is a blank page. Real insightful.CannuckianYankee
July 1, 2009
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Here's a quote from Haldane that makes it look like he was being careful to leave a "back door" open: "It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter." ( Haldane J.B.S., "When I Am Dead," in "Possible Worlds: And Other Essays," [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209). [top] I wonder if Krauss has a back door?es58
June 30, 2009
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