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God and Science Redux: Lawrence Krauss

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A friend alerted me to this piece by Lawrence Krauss from the Wall Street Journal.

Krauss writes:

“J.B.S. Haldane, an evolutionary biologist and a founder of population genetics, understood that science is by necessity an atheistic discipline. As Haldane so aptly described it, one cannot proceed with the process of scientific discovery if one assumes a “god, angel, or devil” will interfere with one’s experiments. God is, of necessity, irrelevant in science.

Faced with the remarkable success of science to explain the workings of the physical world, many, indeed probably most, scientists understandably react as Haldane did. Namely, they extrapolate the atheism of science to a more general atheism.”

No surprise here. But he concludes with

“Finally, it is worth pointing out that these issues are not purely academic. The current crisis in Iran has laid bare the striking inconsistency between a world built on reason and a world built on religious dogma.”

Perhaps the most important contribution an honest assessment of the incompatibility between science and religious doctrine can provide is to make it starkly clear that in human affairs — as well as in the rest of the physical world — reason is the better guide.”

Reason is a better guide than what? Religion? Which religion? All religions? What empircal data does Krauss have to back up this, supposedly, scientific claim. For that matter, what precisely does it mean for reason to be a “better guide”? Better how? This is just another example of a scientist making unsubstantiated philosophical statements in the name of science. It would be interesting to hear how Krauss would explain what went wrong with “reason” with such well known atheists like Stalin or Hitler. How was “reason” a better guide with those guys? Perhaps Krauss could begin by telling us what he means by “reason” in the first place.

It always amazes me how those who claim the high road of science and scientific reasoning so easily abandon the basic rules of logic and reason when it doesn’t seem to suit their argument. He could start by telling us how he knows scientifically that the properties of the cosmos are such that no deity (assuming a deity exists), could take any action whatsoever that would have empirical consequences in what we call Nature, even in principle. If Krauss has no scientific answer to that question (and he doesn’t), then how does he know that the properties of our cosmos are such that miracles can not take place, even in principle? Just because science tells us how babies are formed and born does not mean that in one instance, at least, something quite extraordinary took place. Just because Krauss and his fellow atheists don’t accept such things as true or even possbile doesn’t mean they aren’t. And appealing to science is of little help to his case, since neither he nor anyone else has come up with a detailed, testable, (and potenitally falsifiable) scientific model that eliminates the possibility of miracles from ever occuring in Nature.

Comments
"The current crisis in Iran has laid bare the striking inconsistency between a world built on reason and a world built on religious dogma.”" What he means to say is "I have no idea what religion, reason and science mean in relation to each other. I'm forced into these strange positions because of my generalized hatred. Pfffew, that felt good, finally a moment of relief from my demon mind's enslavement of me." Science didn't create my computer for example, invention and reason did.lamarck
June 30, 2009
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Nnoel wrote, I am hearing talk about Christianity being an ‘informed’ faith, but the fact that Jesus said he was the only way to get to heaven, does not lead me to believe it is an INFORMED faith, and if the bible is suppose to be inerrant, then please browse The Skeptics Annotated Bible, it list contradictions, incorrect facts, and absurdities. *smirk* Please tell me you’re kidding. Please. I’ll wait. No? The Skeptics Annotated Bible is for those who lack critical thinking ability. St. Augustine was right on the mark when he commented regarding supposed biblical errors: “If we are perplexed by any apparent contradiction in Scripture, it is not allowable to say, ‘The author of this book is mistaken’; but either the manuscript is faulty, or the translation is wrong, or you have not understood.” Nnoel, pay close attention to the final portion of Augustine’s statement. It is eminently more probable that you’ve misunderstood the context of a scripture than it is that the Bible is wrong. Also, for those that believe they have an informed faith, if it is important to you to be ‘informed’, then I’d suggest you research Buddhism and yoga, both traditions don’t ask you to believe anything, but ask that you investigate everything for yourself, and believe nothing that does not sit well with you. I did just that. I studied the Bible from the age of 14 onward and in college I took courses in world religions. I must say that although a Christian, I admire the Buddhist tenets of following the eightfold path. When examined, it’s not that far off from the teachings of Jesus. Why do you assume wrongly that all Christians simply believe without having done their homework, as the saying goes? Do you have knowledge of all Christians? Of all religions? No? Then stop with the hasty generalizations. Contrast the statement : “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha. “For the Boreans were more noble minded than those in Thessalonica; daily they examined the scriptures...” The Boreans did not take Paul at his word; they actively studied what he said and compared it to what they had been taught. with : “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” — John 14:6 (NKJV) I argue that Christianity does NOT lead to informed opinions by it’s very teachings! And I argue that you are deeply mistaken.Barb
June 30, 2009
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_slightly_ *different* opinions sorry about the typo.Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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lol, If your going to assume I'm an atheist, I'm going to assume your a YEC. Idiot, everyone knows the Flying Spaghetti monster created the world in 9 days, not 7! Joking aside, you have not told me how my logic to so bad it is insane? And, just for your information, the Skeptics annotated bible is not there to be read and believed, it is there to show you points to ponder, as everything you read should be evaluated critically. I like the SAB because it shows responses to the skeptics from Christians to show both sides of the story. There are two sets of biblical scholars by the way, those that are christian and bound to believe it's all true, and those with no belief in the bible that study it as it is, and they usually have _slightly_ opinions to say the least! And yes, not the place for a discussion of biblical history, but I'll just say that most of your sources appear to be slightly bias that you quote. Love you !Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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Nnoel:
"I think we will have to agree too disagree, because anyone that is too blinded by their faith to have a reasonable discussion about the pro’s and cons of legal prostitution (instead of seeing it as a black and white issue), is not going to see the value in not criminalizing and imprisoning a large portion of your country’s population."
I'm sorry but your response is simply so badly reasoned it is inane. Sad. But keep looking, if you're honest you will eventually see how idiotic atheism is.
Atheism is a disease of the soul before it becomes an error of understanding..
Plato
The atheist is one who fain would pull God from his throne, and in the place of heaven's eternal king set up the phantom chance.
GlynnBorne
June 30, 2009
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Nnoel: "The Skeptics Annotated Bible" !? I hope you're kidding. Any informed person knows better than to trust such utter rubbish. Maybe you should read the works of actual biblical scholars and archaeologists? Your suggestion is like asking us to read Star Trek novels to get the real science. For example Manuscript Evidence: Aristotle’s Ode to Poetics was written between 384 and 322 B.C. The earliest copy of this work dates A.D. 1100, and there are only forty-nine extant manuscripts. The gap between the original writing and the earliest copy is 1,400 years. There are only seven extant manuscripts of Plato’s Tetralogies, written 427–347 B.C. The earliest copy is A.D. 900—a gap of over 1,200 years. What about the New Testament? Jesus was crucified in A.D. 30. The New Testament was written between A.D. 48 and 95. The oldest manuscripts date to the last quarter of the first century, and the second oldest A.D. 125. This gives us a narrow gap of thirty-five to forty years from the originals written by the apostles. From the early centuries, we have some 5,300 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. Altogether, including Syriac, Latin, Coptic, and Aramaic, we have a whopping 24,633 texts of the ancient New Testament to confirm the wording of the Scriptures. So the bottom line is, there was no great period between the events of the New Testament and the New Testament writings. Nor is there a great time lapse between the original writings and the oldest copies. Sir Frederic G. Kenyon, former director and principal librarian of the British Museum, stated about the New Testament,
"The interval, then, between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established."
"It may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever contradicted a biblical reference."
- archaeologist Nelson Glueck B. F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort, the creators of The New Testament in Original Greek, also commented:
"If comparative trivialities such as changes of order, the insertion or omission of the article with proper names, and the like are set aside, the works in our opinion still subject to doubt can hardly mount to more than a thousandth part of the whole New Testament."
The evidence for biblical exactitude are far beyond evidence for any other ancient MSS. And we have literally 1000s of extant copies bearing witness to their integrity. We even have extra biblical evidence for the darkness following the crucifixion:
"Circa AD 52, Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. This work itself has been lost and only fragments of it exist in the citations of others. One such scholar who knew and spoke of it was Julius Africanus, who wrote about AD 221...In speaking of Jesus’ crucifixion and the darkness that covered the land during this event, Africanus found a reference in the writings of Thallus that dealt with this cosmic report. Africanus asserts: 'On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.'"
One could go on for days writing of the historical evidence of biblical prophecies fulfilled and many other proofs of its veracity. One could also go on endlessly demonstrating why the so-called liberal theology is a sham. A question the atheist must ask himself is, "Why is there so much effort put in to destroy that one specific document's credibility and undo it's contents and message"? That, by itself, is suspicious and indeed conspicuously points to someone or something not wanting that specific writing to be known or believed. Atheists have been duped real bad.Borne
June 30, 2009
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Having a belief, thinking you have TRUTH, knowing that everyone else must be wrong, and trying to MAKE people follow your set of morality, even when that other person is not hurting anyone (assisted suicide), is a recipe for disaster, and in western countries without religion, when decisions are made with reason instead of religion, happiness prevails, instead of judgment, and anger, and pain. Love you all!Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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Borne, I'm sorry the link doesn't work for you, but it explains a study done by a professor. I think we will have to agree too disagree, because anyone that is too blinded by their faith to have a reasonable discussion about the pro's and cons of legal prostitution (instead of seeing it as a black and white issue), is not going to see the value in not criminalizing and imprisoning a large portion of your country's population. When religion drives people to see issue in such a black and white manner, reasonable decisions cannot be made, instead BLIND decisions are made on ancient books of 'wisdom', instead of critically accessing the situation. For that reason, religion does not lead to decisions that benefit the greater society, only a small fraction that think they are 'holier than tho' and think everyone else should follow their example. Love you all.Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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I don’t see how Jesus claim leads to the conclusion that faith is not informed. The one does not follow from the other.
Ok, well I suppose to me, a religion that prescribes a solution which it dogmatically insists is the only solution is atypical of a religion that allows it's participants to investigate things for itself, like saying, 'you welcome to research this for yourself, but if you don't have the same answer as us then you going to hell'. That is not informing people, that is herding people with fear. Period. China is struggling to transition from it's previously communistic government, which on the surface is Godless, but not very REASONABLE, which is on topic for this article. It is no wonder that in a country in such turmoil and change that people are grabbing onto the first thing that promises them better things. The atheitic government banned religion in china from about 1949 (not a reasonable thing to do), and just like prohibition in the USA, taking that sort of action never leads to anything good. But reason says people are happy when they are free, and implementing laws 'cause you think you should' has shown that it only leads to problems. Country's that have legalized drugs (more freedom) have lower drug related crime (which means it is a much more peaceful country), portugal is a good example. Religion, just like the atheistic government in China, constantly seeks to curtain people's freedoms (for their own good), which leads to strife in all situations. As long as someone is not directly hurting someone else with their actions, a victimless crime should not be a crime. Love you all!Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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Nnoel: Your link doesn't work. I get a page error. No matter, how about this link instead. Such "news" as you present that superficially supports the inane idea that atheist countries have less crime etc. are nothing but red herrings. The reason why there are so few people in prison is because there are far fewer criminal offenses! Prostitution is legal, various drug uses are legal. That covers about half the Western crime rate figures right there. "What isn't legal?", is the question you need to ask in such places. Child abuse, rape, murder etc. are often treated as mental illness - genetic defect - rather than real crime and the sanctions - as applied in the real world - are often just as pitiful. And, it's becoming the same in the West as atheist "values" are adopted by legislation. Abortion, assisted suicide... the list is long, of things that will reduce crime rates simply by legalizing and calling evil good. As the doc I linked states many people in Holland are now afraid of hospitals for fear of mortification. You are more likely to land in jail for saying something against homosexuals than for murder in those countries. Indeed, read the testimony. Holland, I believe - or is it Denmark - can't recall, actually has a pedophile political party now - approved by their courts - as long they don't actually practice it! Amazing idiocy. That's like saying in the world of homosexuals no one actually practices it. This is the kind of bold and brave stupidity that characterizes much of the atheist states. As CS Lewis aptly noted,
"If naturalism were true then all thoughts whatever would be wholly the result of irrational causes...it cuts its own throat." "Unless thought is valid we have no reason to believe in the real universe." "A universe whose only claim to be believed in rests on the validity of inference must not start telling us the inference is invalid..." "Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator. In most modern scientists this belief has died: it will be interesting to see how long their confidence in uniformity survives it. Two significant developments have already appeared - the hypothesis of a lawless sub-nature, and the surrender of the claim that science is true. We may be living nearer than we suppose to the end of the Scientific Age." M. D. Aeschliman C. S. Lewis on Mere Science 1998 First Things 86 (October, 1998): 16-18. "If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents—the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. but if their thoughts -i.e., of Materialism and Astronomy — are merely accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting that the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset." C.S. Lewis, in God in the Dock (p52-53 Answers to Questions on Christianity)
Atheism is nothing but a process of denial of reality. Even Voltaire scathed the atheists:
The atheists are for the most part impudent and misguided scholars who reason badly, and who not being able to understand the creation, the origin of evil, and other difficulties, have recourse to the hypothesis of the eternity of things and of inevitability.
How true.Borne
June 30, 2009
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nnoel
I am hearing talk about Christianity being an ‘informed’ faith, but the fact that Jesus said he was the only way to get to heaven, does not lead me to believe it is an INFORMED faith, and if the bible is suppose to be inerrant, then please browse The Skeptics Annotated Bible, it list contradictions, incorrect facts, and absurdities.
I don't see how Jesus claim leads to the conclusion that faith is not informed. The one does not follow from the other. As for the SAB, I am skeptical of the skeptics for several reasons. First off, they all use but one translation, The King James, as if there were no more recent scholarship or translations to go by. Secondly, and far more importantly, in creating all these "annotations", the skeptics did not research and study the contexts and meangings of the passages they cite nor did they study and decipher the original texts. They take passages and verses completely out of their textual, historical, cultural and lieterary contexts in order to bolster their skepticism. If they applied as much care and study to their skepticism as true Biblical scholars do to their study of the Scriptures, they would probably come to much different conclusions. The SAB is not in any way shape or form a scholarly enterprise and I see no reason to give it any real credence.
godless societies have fewer people in prison, fewer violent crimes, the best education and health systems, and unsurprisingly, are the happiest!
I wonder if the people of China would agree. Apparently not, since the Christian church in China is growing by leaps and bounds, albeit underground. Some estimates put it at nearly 100,000,000. If they were all so happy, then what would motivate so many to take the risks in order to be Christian in this "godless" soceity? Read Jesus in Beijing: How Christianity is Transforming China and Changing the Global Balance of Power by David Aikman.
Please can someone provide me a scientific definition of the study of ID (or a working hypothesis) that does not attack or try to debase the ToE. (I’ll except an excuse as well, but label it as such so we can discuss the limits of it).
You might read William Dembski's The Design Revolution. As a scientific research program, ID seeks to differentiate undirected, natural causes from intelligent causes. Nothing in that "debases" the ToE. But all of this is a sidetrack from the main point of the OP which is that Krauss et.al., who claim the high road of science and reason, don't seem to have any science or reason to back up the sort of claims Krauss makes in his editorial.DonaldM
June 30, 2009
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True science makes no metaphysical inferences
I like how science is always defined as something that the ToE does not follow (in the opinion of the poster). No matter the subject, there is always one way or another that the study of evolution is defined outside of science in the majority of posts on this site. Funny how such a great deal of knowledge has been acquired and verified through the study of common ancestors, but I've yet to be provided a definition of ID that can be called scientific, no matter many times I request it. Please can someone provide me a scientific definition of the study of ID (or a working hypothesis) that does not attack or try to debase the ToE. (I'll except an excuse as well, but label it as such so we can discuss the limits of it). Love you all!Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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Lawrence Krauss proclaims that “God and science don’t mix.” A more accurate observation would be that metaphysics and science don’t mix. Science for its own sake is merely observation. A microbiologist studies a cell and describes his findings without making inferences of any kind. Science, in this sense, can be found in innumerable basic science journals that dedicate themselves to pure description and avoid metaphysical glossing. Any inference beyond the limits of pure description is not science but speculation. Cells are wonderfully complex and give every appearance of having been designed. A scientist may feel moved to link the self-evident complexity of the cell to a designer, but this would be an inference; that is, it involves information not found in the cell itself. Mr Kraus rails against mixing religion and science because he wants scientists to draw the opposite conclusion: he wants them to claim that cells are not designed. Again, the cell per se does not furnish any such information. The only way to exclude design is to make evolutionary inferences that cannot be found in the cell for its own sake. Mr. Kraus wants to believe that his materialist inference is more scientific than a design inference, but this is far from obvious. Indeed, if metaphysical inferences are permitted in science, then the design inference seems more intuitive than materialism, since cells give every appearance of having been designed. Pure science and metaphysics have two very different goals. Pure science is engaged in the heavy lifting of obtaining knowledge about nature and how it works in the present tense. Nature is complicated, and knowledge of it is difficult to grasp; ask any scientist who has tried to determine the actual nature of gravity or light. The goal of mixing metaphysics with science, however, is to promote a certain worldview. Newton, for example, was a Christian who believed that he saw the genius of the creator in nature. Darwin was an atheist or agnostic who wanted to exclude God from nature and account for the excellence of the species by purely natural means. In the last century, Darwin’s metaphysical atheism because the basis of Modernism, which entrenched itself in the academy and the science establishment. It is not surprising, then, that Mr Kraus would be eager to keep God out of science—or keep materialism in. True science makes no metaphysical inferences. True science is based on a one-to-one correspondence between fact and observation. Anything that goes beyond this simple rule is not “science,” or actual knowledge of nature. It is speculation.allanius
June 30, 2009
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Barb...so glad to see your posts again. Always thoughtful and intersting.Upright BiPed
June 30, 2009
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I am hearing talk about Christianity being an 'informed' faith, but the fact that Jesus said he was the only way to get to heaven, does not lead me to believe it is an INFORMED faith, and if the bible is suppose to be inerrant, then please browse The Skeptics Annotated Bible, it list contradictions, incorrect facts, and absurdities. Also, for those that believe they have an informed faith, if it is important to you to be 'informed', then I'd suggest you research Buddhism and yoga, both traditions don't ask you to believe anything, but ask that you investigate everything for yourself, and believe nothing that does not sit well with you. Contrast the statement : “Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” – Buddha with : "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6 (NKJV) I argue that Christianity does NOT lead to informed opinions by it's very teachings! Love you!Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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What empircal data does Krauss have to back up this, supposedly, scientific claim how about : People in non-religious nations are happier and more successful godless societies have fewer people in prison, fewer violent crimes, the best education and health systems, and unsurprisingly, are the happiest! Hows that for evidence! Love you all!Nnoel
June 30, 2009
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fbeckwith: Exactly! Barb: Right. What Krauss et.al. fail to appreciate is the difference between blind faith and informed faith. The idea that faith is without reason or rationality is a red herring and completely bogus.DonaldM
June 29, 2009
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All too often, there is a slide from science to something more, and this slide goes unmentioned -- unrealized even. ~ Michael Ruse People who tell you that 'Science tells you everything you need to know about the world' or 'Science tells you that religion is all wrong' or 'Science tells you there is no God', those people aren't telling you scientific things. They are saying metaphysical things and they have to defend their positions from metaphysical reasons. ~ John Polkinghorne The fact that there are scientists who appear to be at war with God is not quite the same as science itself being at war with God. For example, some musicians are militant atheists. But does that mean music itself is at war with God? Hardly. The point here may be expressed as follows: Statements by scientists are not necessarily statements of science. Nor, we might add, are such statements necessarily true; although the prestige of science is such that they are often taken to be so. ~ John Lennoxbevets
June 29, 2009
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Krauss fails because not all religions are based on blind faith. The Bible encourages people to think for themselves (see the verse which states “come let us reason”). Paul himself was trained in the law and clearly knew how to debate and use logic as evidenced from his speech at the Areopagus. A world built on reason would not necessarily lead to peace, as the examples from Stalin and Hitler (although a Catholic, not an atheist) have already proven. As another example, take the controversial book written recently, “A Natural History of Rape”. The authors argue that rape is a natural consequence of the evolutionary process. How many atheist feminists would agree to live in a world where rape was seen as reasonable and natural? Haldane’s argument fails because he wrongly assumes that a god or devil will intervene without knowing whether one will or not. Clearly, the problem is not god’s or the devil’s;--the problem lies completely with those like Haldane who wish to be the ultimate authority figures for the general population of mankind.Barb
June 29, 2009
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Dumb me. Please insert "people" between "that" and "believe" in the first sentence in my post above.fbeckwith
June 29, 2009
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Professor Krauss does not seem to realize that believe in their religion in the retail and not the wholesale. There is no such thing as "religion" in the wholesale. It's like arguing against or for "sociology" or "golf." Why should we pay any attention to Prof Krauss if he won't tell us what religion, what science, and what arguments about what subject he is precisely talking about. Don't take the "religion" bait!fbeckwith
June 29, 2009
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Iran as an example of why religion is bad for a society. How many times can we say cherry-picking a data point. There are many examples where we could state that atheism is bad for a society. On the other hand I'd like to see how Krauss responds to this: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article5400568.eceJDH
June 29, 2009
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