Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An infinite past can’t save Darwin?

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Philosopher and photographer Laszlo Bencze shares with us a passage from Robert J. Spitzer on the impossibility of infinite past time. He explains,

If often happens that infinity is marshaled to prop up the notion that evolution can work via random mutations, no matter how heavily the odds are stacked against that possibility. If the finiteness of our universe limits the effectiveness of randomness in producing wonders, then infinity is offered as the handy solution. Our universe was preceded by an infinite number of other universes which rolled the dice an infinite number of times until finally our own time-bound universe happened to get it “just right.” An infinite number of universes of course entails infinite time, a concept tossed blithely into discussion as if it were no more problematic than booking a meal at a restaurant.

Here is one of several proofs that Spitzer offers to show the impossibility of infinite past time. I find it rather elegant:

Infinities within an aggregating succession imply “unoccurrable,” “unachievable,” and “unactualizable,” for an aggregating succession occurs one step at a time (that is, one step after another), and can therefore only be increased a finite amount. No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable. Now, if “infinity” is applied to an aggregating succession, and it is to be kept analytically distinct from (indeed, contrary to) “finitude,” then “infinity” must always be more than can ever occur, be achieved or be actualized through an aggregating succession. Any other definition would make “infinity” analytically indistinguishable from “finitude” in its application to an aggregating succession. Therefore, in order to maintain the analytical distinction between “finitude” and “infinity” in an aggregating succession, “infinity” must be consider unoccurrable (as distinct from finitude which is occurrable), unachievable (as distinct from finitude which is achievable), and unactualizable (as distinct from finitude which is actualizable). We are now ready to combine the two parts of our expression through our three common conceptual bases:

“Infinite Past Time”

“(The) unoccurrable (has) occurred.”
“(The) unachievable (has been) achieved.”
“(The) unactualizable (has been) actualized.”

Failures of human imagination may deceive one into thinking that the above analytical contradictions can be overcome, but further scrutiny reveals their inescapability. For example, it might be easier to detect the unachievability of an infinite series when one views an infinite succession as having a beginning point without an ending point, for if a series has no end, then, a priori, it can never be achieved. However, when one looks at the infinite series as having an ending point but no beginning point (as with infinite past time reaching the present), one is tempted to think that the presence of the ending point must signify achievement, and, therefore, the infinite series was achieved. This conjecture does not avoid the contradiction of “infinite past time” being “an achieved unachievable.” It simply manifests a failure of our imagination. Since we conjecture that the ending point has been reached, we think that an infinite number of steps has really been traversed, but this does not help, because we are still contending that unachievability has been achieved, and are therefore still asserting an analytical contradiction. ( – New Proofs for the Existence of God, Robert J. Spitzer, p. 181 )

Readers? Thoughts?

See also: Arrow of time points to missing dark matter

Follow UD News at Twitter!

Comments
Aleta, a concept of infinity is not infinity. It is a lie that calculus uses infinity whether you agree or not. It is a very old lie that has retarded progress in science for centuries. Even brilliant men like Newton, Leibniz and Descartes believed in the lie. The universe is 100% discrete and finite. And I really don't care what you or the world of mathematicians will not bother with. I'm an independent thinker, a rebel.Mapou
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
03:04 PM
3
03
04
PM
PDT
to Mapou: I can do calculus calculations with a piece of paper, using techniques developed using concepts of infinity. You have some strange beliefs, but they are not shared by the world of mathematicians, so I won't bother with them. Although calling my statement that calculus uses infinity a lie, rather than a statement you disagree with, is a mistake of another kind.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
02:53 PM
2
02
53
PM
PDT
It is a lie that calculus (or anything else) uses infinity. If it did, it would be impossible to perform calculus computations on a finite machine (which all machines are). Calculus uses numbers and all numbers are finite and discrete.Mapou
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
02:43 PM
2
02
43
PM
PDT
KF, It's this text from the OP:
Infinities within an aggregating succession imply “unoccurrable,” “unachievable,” and “unactualizable,” for an aggregating succession occurs one step at a time (that is, one step after another), and can therefore only be increased a finite amount. No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable.
That seems to me to be untrue if there actually does exist an infinite past.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
02:36 PM
2
02
36
PM
PDT
DS, The underlying notes for Spitzer seem to be here: http://magisgodwiki.org/index.php?title=Cosmology PDF fact sheet: http://www.magisreasonfaith.org/pdf/Magis_FactSheet.pdf In the talk I did not hear an argument regarding a beginning that was not a summary of physics [and he leads with a different entropy argument but it boils down to saying much the same -- starlight drowned out], and that seems to be so in the notes too. Maybe I missed something, could you kindly outline what you are objecting to? Where is it in the video? KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PDT
I see! :-) My apologies for my attitude. I really enjoyed teaching calculus to kids so that they could understand what it was about, both mathematically and philosophically, rather than seeing it as an arcane mumbo-jumbo set of techniques (although eventually one must learn the techniques). This is one reason why I'm interested in infinity: it's critical to understanding what calculus is about and how it works.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
Aleta: ...what do you mean when you say calculus is impossible? It was a joke. It was a comment about myself. Mung: In my experience, calculus is not possible.Mung
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
01:52 PM
1
01
52
PM
PDT
DS You spoke of logical issues. The hotel shows at least some of them, whatever may o may not be right in the clip. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
12:56 PM
12
12
56
PM
PDT
What's the relevance of Hilbert's Hotel to what Spitzer says?daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
11:57 AM
11
11
57
AM
PDT
Cf Hilbert's Hotel. Where, we are dealing with the cosmos.kairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
11:51 AM
11
11
51
AM
PDT
In taking up the infinite step-down illustration, what I brought out is that removing any finite subset will do nothing.
Agreed.
The idea that at any point there was an infinite past succession to that point is a mathematical suggestion not a physical one — and we are dealing with the physical case.
Well, once you start considering physical evidence, then I agree an infinite past seems less likely. But Spitzer's argument is based solely on the derivation of a supposed analytical contradiction, with no physics involved. Again, I could be wrong, but I don't think it works.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
11:46 AM
11
11
46
AM
PDT
DS, You will see I began with a simple, readily understood case. In taking up the infinite step-down illustration, what I brought out is that removing any finite subset will do nothing. The idea that at any point there was an infinite past succession to that point is a mathematical suggestion not a physical one -- and we are dealing with the physical case. Work flows, energy, trends to so called heat death, rise of entropy are all implicated. Once we have finite actual causally connected steps a world is running and you then face the limits imposed. An infinite past succession of steps is physically equivalent to, heat death has already occurred. There will be no free energy to drive such steps. No physical clock that has ticked infinitely many times and advanced the second hand accordingly will be feasible. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
11:33 AM
11
11
33
AM
PDT
KF,
DS, Count off from a beginning in steps: S1, s2, . . . sn. At any sn we reach, we can add another and each successive si will be finite, i.e. we are doing a physical analogue to counting.
But in my eternal clock example, there is no beginning, no first tick. There is no S1, in your notation.
To see where the problems are with counting down, let us imagine, using A for aleph null: A, A-1, A-2 . . . A – n . . . 3, 2, 1, 0, . . . At any n, we have only taken a finite out and have still not left the domain of A.
True. This just means that you can step back in time any finite number of ticks and still the clock has ticked an infinite number of times before that.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
11:24 AM
11
11
24
AM
PDT
What I said. kf and I agree. And to dave S: my remarks about infinitesimals were a part of the discussion with Mapou. I know you are talking about discrete counting.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
11:19 AM
11
11
19
AM
PDT
DS, Count off from a beginning in steps: S1, s2, . . . sn. At any sn we reach, we can add another and each successive si will be finite, i.e. we are doing a physical analogue to counting. We will always be at some finite si, and will have infinitely many further steps to reach aleph_null or omega if you think in ordinal terms. Counting with finite discrete steps is inherently a potentially transfinite process not one that can successively reach the first transfinite. To see where the problems are with counting down, let us imagine, using A for aleph null: A, A-1, A-2 . . . A - n . . . 3, 2, 1, 0, . . . At any n, we have only taken a finite out and have still not left the domain of A. The problem is essentially the same. Supertask, cf Hilbert's Hotel KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
11:15 AM
11
11
15
AM
PDT
KF,
DS, the traversal of a countable infinity in finite discrete successive steps is impossible, which is what I spoke to. Steps is indicative of causal succession.
But why is it impossible?
Chains and ratios of infinitesimals etc is a different issue, as limit processes come in that may complete in finite spaces and times — forms like dy/dx, limit runs to 0/0 or inf/ inf etc. where the differing “rates” of approach can indeed yield finite answers, where however there is no simple general answer.
I'm not referring to infinitesimals anywhere here. My example was an eternal ticking clock, with ticks separated by 1 second. Finite, discrete, successive steps throughout.daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
10:51 AM
10
10
51
AM
PDT
Mapou and Aleta: Would nonstandard analysis be of help here: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NonstandardAnalysis.html Note: http://www.cut-the-knot.org/WhatIs/Infinity/NSA.shtml Cf monograph: https://www.math.wisc.edu/~keisler/foundations.html KF PS: I found the definition of the contiunnum in terms of ability to interpolate a point between two neighbouring points helpful. I suggest on decimals A and B such that both are W + F = W.f1f2 . . . fn but then at some fn+1 they differ so we have an+1 and bn+1, we may then average these terms and interpolate within the two, accepting that the decimals are members of a common class, R.kairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
10:49 AM
10
10
49
AM
PDT
DS, the traversal of a countable infinity in finite discrete successive steps is impossible, which is what I spoke to. Steps is indicative of causal succession. Chains and ratios of infinitesimals etc is a different issue, as limit processes come in that may complete in finite spaces and times -- forms like dy/dx, limit runs to 0/0 or inf/ inf etc. where the differing "rates" of approach can indeed yield finite answers, where however there is no simple general answer. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
10:41 AM
10
10
41
AM
PDT
I should add that Einstein seemed to have realized late in his life that he was wrong about continuity. I guess it's never too late to recant a lifetime of self-delusion. Not long before his death he wrote to his friend Besso,
"I consider it quite possible that physics cannot be based on the field concept, i.e., on continuous structures. In that case, nothing remains of my entire castle in the air, gravitation theory included, [and of] the rest of modern physics." (From: "Subtle is the Lord" by Abraham Pais.)
Mapou
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
Mung, I know you're getting me back for my comment, so I guess we're even there. But, more substantially: a) what do you mean when you say calculus is impossible? Calculus works. What is impossible about it? b) do you agree with Mapou that "most mathematicians believe that numbers exist in the physical realm (see 32), or do you agree with me that very few mathematicians believe that, and that most mathematicians consider the concepts of mathematics, such as infinity and continuity, as abstractions.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
10:25 AM
10
10
25
AM
PDT
Mapou:
My point is this. In the physical universe, there exist only particles and their properties. Everything else is either abstract (i.e., in the spiritual realm) or just plain poofery.
Aleta:
Mapou, if you mean “the physical existence of infinity”, I was never talking about that...
A trollish comment?Mung
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
10:01 AM
10
10
01
AM
PDT
Aleta, Actually, the pooferists are all over the place in both the academic world and the Christian fundamentalist community. Albert Einstein was a pooferist because his theories assume the existence of continuity, i.e., infinite divisibility. Black hole preachers and other snake oil charlatans (e.g., Stephen Hawking) are all pooferists since black holes assume infinity. Materialists and Darwinists are constantly preaching to us about the existence of an infinite number of parallel universes and the like. Mathematicians are the most incorrigible pooferists of them all. The truth hurts. Live with it.Mapou
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
09:59 AM
9
09
59
AM
PDT
Mapou, if you mean "the physical existence of infinity", I was never talking about that, so yes, you were "wrong to think we were talking about the existence of infinity." I don't know where you'll find someone who believes that that there is an infinite number of any thing in the physical world, though, so I'm not sure the pooferists you are arguing against actually exist.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
09:42 AM
9
09
42
AM
PDT
Aleta:
there isn’t much for us to discuss.
I agree. I guess I was wrong to think we were talking about the existence of infinity. Silly me. See you around, pooferist.Mapou
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
09:36 AM
9
09
36
AM
PDT
daveS asks, "Referring back to the eternal ticking clock example, is the total number of ticks up to the present undefined? Is it finite? Or something else?" It's something else: it infinite, in the sense that it is bigger than any number that can be named. If you started counted backwards from now, you would never stop counting: it doesn't make sense to say we can count the number of seconds if in fact we never could actually stop counting and declare a final amount.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
09:13 AM
9
09
13
AM
PDT
Mapou says, "The biggest problem with mathematicians is that they believe that numbers exist in the physical realm." That is wrong, and not relevant to this discussion. My guess is that virtually all mathematicians think of numbers and other elements of mathematics as abstract ideas, not as things that physically exist. I have no idea why you think mathematicians "believe that numbers exist in the physical realm". I am discussing abstract ideas, not physical reality. I am discussing the idea of infinity as it is understood in mathematics. Since you dismiss mathematicians who have studied and use these ideas as "infinity mongers", then there isn't much for us to discuss.Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
09:07 AM
9
09
07
AM
PDT
Aleta, Addressing your points in slightly scrambled order:
Infinity is a not a number: no matter how many numbers we counted, there are still more to count.
I would agree that "infinity" is not a number. However aleph-null, 1, 17 aleph-thirty-two, and other cardinal numbers are.
You can’t count an infinite number of natural numbers either. The term “countable” is misleading: any set that can be put in a 1-1 correspondence with the natural numbers is countable, but there is a difference between countable finite sets and countable infinite sets.
If we can’t stop counting, I don’t think we can say we have in fact counted the numbers.
I appreciate the distinction between countable and "able to be counted", if you will, but I think that relates to the very issue I'm raising. Who says that a countably infinite set is not "able to be counted", given an infinite past? Referring back to the eternal ticking clock example, is the total number of ticks up to the present undefined? Is it finite? Or something else?daveS
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PDT
Aleta, I warned you that I would shoot your argument down. You wrote:
An infinite set can contain an infinite subset
There is no need to go further. You see, this is precisely the problem with all infinity mongers. They are what I call poofery artists or "pooferists". Declaring "Let there be an infinite set" is no better than saying "abracadabra" and expect a fully formed rabbit to come out of a hat. The biggest problem with mathematicians is that they believe that numbers exist in the physical realm. I got bad news for you. You are all deluding yourselves. Immanuel Kant asked "If space exists, where is it?" I ask the same question about not just infinity but also about all numbers and other abstract mathematical concepts: If the number 2 exists, where is it? If distance exists, where is it? If volume exists, where is it? If circumference exists, where is it? My point is this. In the physical universe, there exist only particles and their properties. Everything else is either abstract (i.e., in the spiritual realm) or just plain poofery.Mapou
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
08:44 AM
8
08
44
AM
PDT
I got an A in calculus and still couldn't wrap my head around it :)RexTugwell
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
08:26 AM
8
08
26
AM
PDT
A trollish comment? Calculus works - the modern world would not exist without the mathematical tools brought to us through calculus. What do you mean that "calculus is not possible"?Aleta
January 24, 2016
January
01
Jan
24
24
2016
08:18 AM
8
08
18
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4

Leave a Reply