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An infinite past can’t save Darwin?

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Philosopher and photographer Laszlo Bencze shares with us a passage from Robert J. Spitzer on the impossibility of infinite past time. He explains,

If often happens that infinity is marshaled to prop up the notion that evolution can work via random mutations, no matter how heavily the odds are stacked against that possibility. If the finiteness of our universe limits the effectiveness of randomness in producing wonders, then infinity is offered as the handy solution. Our universe was preceded by an infinite number of other universes which rolled the dice an infinite number of times until finally our own time-bound universe happened to get it “just right.” An infinite number of universes of course entails infinite time, a concept tossed blithely into discussion as if it were no more problematic than booking a meal at a restaurant.

Here is one of several proofs that Spitzer offers to show the impossibility of infinite past time. I find it rather elegant:

Infinities within an aggregating succession imply “unoccurrable,” “unachievable,” and “unactualizable,” for an aggregating succession occurs one step at a time (that is, one step after another), and can therefore only be increased a finite amount. No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable. Now, if “infinity” is applied to an aggregating succession, and it is to be kept analytically distinct from (indeed, contrary to) “finitude,” then “infinity” must always be more than can ever occur, be achieved or be actualized through an aggregating succession. Any other definition would make “infinity” analytically indistinguishable from “finitude” in its application to an aggregating succession. Therefore, in order to maintain the analytical distinction between “finitude” and “infinity” in an aggregating succession, “infinity” must be consider unoccurrable (as distinct from finitude which is occurrable), unachievable (as distinct from finitude which is achievable), and unactualizable (as distinct from finitude which is actualizable). We are now ready to combine the two parts of our expression through our three common conceptual bases:

“Infinite Past Time”

“(The) unoccurrable (has) occurred.”
“(The) unachievable (has been) achieved.”
“(The) unactualizable (has been) actualized.”

Failures of human imagination may deceive one into thinking that the above analytical contradictions can be overcome, but further scrutiny reveals their inescapability. For example, it might be easier to detect the unachievability of an infinite series when one views an infinite succession as having a beginning point without an ending point, for if a series has no end, then, a priori, it can never be achieved. However, when one looks at the infinite series as having an ending point but no beginning point (as with infinite past time reaching the present), one is tempted to think that the presence of the ending point must signify achievement, and, therefore, the infinite series was achieved. This conjecture does not avoid the contradiction of “infinite past time” being “an achieved unachievable.” It simply manifests a failure of our imagination. Since we conjecture that the ending point has been reached, we think that an infinite number of steps has really been traversed, but this does not help, because we are still contending that unachievability has been achieved, and are therefore still asserting an analytical contradiction. ( – New Proofs for the Existence of God, Robert J. Spitzer, p. 181 )

Readers? Thoughts?

See also: Arrow of time points to missing dark matter

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Comments
The even bigger idea – the idea that makes calculus possible... In my experience, calculus is not possible.Mung
January 24, 2016
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Infinity-of-the-gaps But the gaps ate infinitely small, unlike Darwinian gaps, which are gaping wounds.Mung
January 24, 2016
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You can't count an infinite number of natural numbers either. The term "countable" is misleading: any set that can be put in a 1-1 correspondence with the natural numbers is countable, but there is a difference between countable finite sets and countable infinite sets. As Wikipedia says,
In mathematics, a countable set is a set with the same cardinality (number of elements) as some subset of the set of natural numbers. A countable set is either a finite set or a countably infinite set. Whether finite or infinite, the elements of a countable set can always be counted one at a time and, although the counting may never finish,, every element of the set is associated with a natural number.
[My emphasis] So an infinite countable set may be countable in the mathematical sense, but that doesn't mean we can actually count them. Infinity is a not a number: no matter how many numbers we counted, there are still more to count. If we can't stop counting, I don't think we can say we have in fact counted the numbers.Aleta
January 24, 2016
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Aleta, First, I should have said aleph-null instead of little-omega, my bad. But I dispute that you can't count an infinite number of seconds. You can count an infinite number of natural numbers. How would seconds differ?daveS
January 24, 2016
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Infinity, and other incarnations involving cardinality of infinite sets, are not numbers. You can't count an infinite number of seconds. Saying the clock has ticked "little-omega" seconds isn't meaningful, I don't think.Aleta
January 24, 2016
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KF,
RS is right, you cannot traverse a countable infinite in finite, discrete spaced steps. You can only be on the way and point onward.
If the universe is infinitely old, we certainly can traverse a countable infinite. Think of a clock ticking once per second in that scenario. How many times has it ticked so far? Little-omega at least (I don't think the symbol will display properly here). That was my point in post #9. It seems to me that this resolves the "analytical contradiction" than Spitzer constructs.daveS
January 24, 2016
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kairosfocus @21
But we can drown you out through institutional and message dominance — until we go over the cliff through a march of folly.
Exactly. Although I still entertain the hope that by the grace of God, for Whom nothing is impossible, the march of folly can be transformed into a march of Wisdom. What prevents that isn't any lack of perfection in God's plan to make it happen, or a deficiency in God's power, which is limitless. So why don't we see it happening? Because good Christians with the best of intentions throw themselves into their own good plans to make it happen. The problem is that their plans go forth with their power, which is nothing compared to that of the prince of this world. God's plans go forth with His power. We need to beg God to show us our place in His plan. Of course, that will require us to leave our comfort zones and have the faith of those for whom Christ worked the miracles recorded in the Gospels, which most often have Him mentioning their faith as what brought forth the miraculous power of God. God's plan will take us where we, on a human level, as Christ told Peter, would "rather not go." (Jn 21:18) But God's plan has more than enough power to reverse the march of folly. We just need to find our place in it and be willing to go where it takes us.harry
January 24, 2016
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At 5, Mapau wrote,
Infinity is illogical for a very simple reason. Nothing can be compared to infinity without introducing a contradiction. Why? It’s because any finite quantity is infinitely small compared to infinity, making the quantity both finite and infinitesimal at the same time. As simple as that.
Mapou, your "logical" conclusion that infinity is illogical because it contains a contradiction is flawed because, among other things, you use "infinitesimal" in a colloquial way as meaning really small as opposed to a mathematically correct way. Second, there are all sorts of things about infinity that appear "illogical" to our common sense, but are mathematically true - "common sense" is not a very good guide in thinking about infinity. A couple of textbooks examples: An infinite set can contain an infinite subset: the set of all even numbers is obviously a subset of all integers (because there are also odd numbers), yet both the set of all even numbers and the set of all integers are infinite. The set of all even numbers and the set of all integers are the same size: we say they have the same cardinality. There are as many evens as there are integers, even though there are also the same number of integers that are not even. However, the same is not true of the integers compared to the reals: the integers are obviously an infinite subset of the reals, but there are more reals than there are integers. Last, infinitesimal doesn't just mean "really small" in comparison to something else. It is a central concept in calculus, although it has been the subject of much discussion over the centuries. The basic idea is connected to that of limit: an infinitesimal is, informally, a non-zero "number" that is smaller than any number you can name, much as infinity is a "number" larger than any number you can name. But neither is really a number: more formally, they both refer what happens as you continue a processes. The classic story is of the crazy frog who start at one end of a room, and starts jumping to get to the other side. His first jump is 1/2 way across the room, but because he is tired his next jump is only 1/2 the remaining distance (so he is now 3/4 of the way); and his next is again 1/2 the remaining distance (so he is now 7/8 of the way), and so on. Does he ever get to the wall? No. How close does he get? Infinitesimally close. That is, no matter what finite distance you name (1 trillionth of the way), he will get closer than that; and if you name an even smaller number (1 quadrillionth) he will get closer than that. More formally, we say the limit of the series 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... = 1, but we can not say that 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... = 1. The even bigger idea - the idea that makes calculus possible, is that the ratio of two infinitesimals can have a finite, definite limit, even though the limit of each infinitesimal is zero. That is; 0/0 is undefined and indeterminate, but the limit of dy/dx, where dy and dx are infinitesimals each of whose limit is zero, is a definite number. Maybe you know all this, Mapou, and just choose to not accept these conclusions, and maybe you don't. But some of the above is why it looked to me that you didn't have much of a background in the topic.Aleta
January 24, 2016
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But we can drown you out through institutional and message dominance -- until we go over the cliff through a march of folly.kairosfocus
January 24, 2016
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Infinity-of-the-gaps nothing moreRexTugwell
January 24, 2016
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Bob O'H: Surely you are familiar with L'Hospital's rule and the like. Processes based on infinitesimals -- I allude to non standard analysis that vindicates Newton et al -- can under fsvourable circumstances terminate in finite times and spaces. But the limit is not guaranteed in general. That is distinct from finite separate successive steps of action that are like climbing a ladder rung by rung. You cannot traverse the countable infinite that way. And I am confident you know it so the posing of Zeno's paradoxes is a red herring led out to a strawman. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
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Folks, RS is right, you cannot traverse a countable infinite in finite, discrete spaced steps. You can only be on the way and point onward. That is why our cosmos as a contingent being with processes of finite duration that lead out in causal chains cannot be of infinite duration. You can no more count down one by one from infinity than you can count up to it. Infinity minus one, infinity minus two . . . zero, 1, 2 makes no more sense than , 2, . . . infinity minus one, infinity. To get to root cause you have to switch order of being to necessary being, one so connected to the foundation of a world that without it there is no world. Things like the number 2 and the consequent relationship this and that which is not this -- distinct identity and linked world partition W = {A | ~A}. Infinite regress is impossible and the attempt to draw being out of non-being is a failure on its face. Non-being has no causal powers so were there ever utter nothing such would forever obtain. If a world now is, a world root always was. And in wider context one capable of a cosmos fine tuned for life and with capability to be the IS that grounds OUGHT as we are responsibly free morally governed beings. There is (after centuries of debates) only one serious candidate for such, the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being worthy of loyalty and the reasonable responsible service of freely doing the good in accord with our evident nature. But, that is exactly what ever so many do not wish to face. KFkairosfocus
January 24, 2016
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No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable.
In other news, I hear that Achilles still hasn't overtaken the tortoise.Bob O'H
January 24, 2016
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Mapou, I agree with your sentiment at 15, but not with your stated application/conclusion in 5. If infinitude doesn't exist in at least one sense, somewhere, or better put, some how, then nothing exists, period.Brent
January 24, 2016
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Infinities within an aggregating succession imply “unoccurrable,” “unachievable,” and “unactualizable,” for an aggregating succession occurs one step at a time (that is, one step after another), and can therefore only be increased a finite amount. No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable. Now, if “infinity” is applied to an aggregating succession, and it is to be kept analytically distinct from (indeed, contrary to) “finitude,” then “infinity” must always be more than can ever occur, be achieved or be actualized through an aggregating succession. Any other definition would make “infinity” analytically indistinguishable from “finitude” in its application to an aggregating succession. Therefore, in order to maintain the analytical distinction between “finitude” and “infinity” in an aggregating succession, “infinity” must be consider unoccurrable (as distinct from finitude which is occurrable), unachievable (as distinct from finitude which is achievable), and unactualizable (as distinct from finitude which is actualizable). We are now ready to combine the two parts of our expression through our three common conceptual bases:
After reading this, my first thought was, why use so many words just to say that nobody can count to infinity? Infinity is obviously a stupid concept for propellerheads and pompous, insecure mathematicians.Mapou
January 23, 2016
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Anyone hear of the mathematician David Hilbert and Hilbert's Hotel with an infinite amount of rooms? When talking about an infinite amount of things all kinds of counter-intuitive things happen. Like if half of the infinite rooms were occupied you would still have an infinite amount of empty rooms and occupied rooms so like every other room would be empty. If 20 million people check out half the rooms are still full, but if everybody except 8 people checked out you would only have 8 people occupying 8 rooms. Got that? OK. There cannot be an infinite past in our spatial dimensions because there is only one dimension of time moving in one direction. If there were two dimensions of time, think of a two dimensional plane and we live on a single line going through it. Because of our restriction we cannot go back in time, but a Being that existed in 2D could be infinite and could see the beginning of our time line from start to finish if there is one, but that Being doesn't have to set an end. Yet there has to be a beginning or we could never reach today on a single line of time because if you have crossed 99.9999% of infinity you still have an infinity to go. That is why theologians say God is outside of time and indeed created it as per Hawking/Penrose's work on relativity when they figured out at the initial moment of the Creation time had a beginning as well as space itself. Nothing, or better to say not out of anything was the Universe created and YEC, OEC or EC , there is a Creation point and there has to be in one dimension of time or the past would not have been actualized to get to today. When God created Adam He said, "Let Us make man in Our image." The very fact that we can even conceive of such mind bending concepts is part of that Image manifesting itself. The fact that we can apprehend the concepts doesn't mean we can comprehend them in their fullness, as we are finite beings. This is an evidence for God's existence argument. By the way, in the only Psalm attributed to Moses he declared "From Everlasting to Everlasting Thou art God." So there is the answer for the "Who created God?" crowd. The Bible states that we cannot even imagine what God has in store for those that trust in Christ and his Saving Hands with the holes in Them. The God that Suffers and for those who don't believe in God because of evil, you have to understand that this world is the best plan. How do I know that? God planned it from before the foundation of the world and God is the greatest conceivable Being and therefore His plan is the greatest conceivable plan, it cannot be otherwise even though there is evil. You must understand I speak from experience. I was raised in an abusive home and I got into a lot trouble and paid for it. I have suffered, I lost a son five years ago who was burned to death in a meaningless accident, but not to God was it meaningless and I never once was angry at Him as I am a sinner and have no right to accuse Him. I had kidney cancer and had one of my kidneys removed last Oct. I know what pain is and nothing was as bad as losing my 24 year old son. But I am just a creature and a sinful one at that. God is The Creator not me. God commands you to believe in His Son and I hope that somebody is praying for you because God will answer their prayers whether you like it or not. I also tend toward Calvinism too. LOLjimmontg
January 23, 2016
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Aleta, Man, don't attack my background. This is known as an ad-hominem argument. If you got an actual argument, let's hear it. I suspect you don't. But hey, just in case you do, come out with it and watch me shoot it down. LOLMapou
January 23, 2016
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Mapou in 5 obviously doesn't have a mathematical background in the concept of infinity.Aleta
January 23, 2016
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Mung @ 8
God must just be a really, really old guy.
...or, like Peter Pan, He just never grows up.Seversky
January 23, 2016
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Laszlo @ 7 Since when has infinity been necessary to explain evolution?
The future is always potential not actualized.
When George Washington was appointed to command the American army in 1775, he did not know what would be the outcome of the Revolutionary War, let alone anything after. For him, it was all unactualized potential. Yet for us, what occurred in the 238 years between then and now is actualized history. So which is true, is that period unactualized potential or actualized history?Seversky
January 23, 2016
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Spitzer, with some bolding added:
No matter how fast and how long the succession occurs, the “one step at a time” or “one step after another” character of the succession necessitates that only a finite amount is occurrable, achievable, or actualizable.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like he's essentially assuming his conclusion here. If an infinite amount of time is available, then why wouldn't an infinite amount [of an aggregating succession] be occurrable, achievable, or actualizable?daveS
January 23, 2016
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Furthermore, I assume you agree that there will be no “end” to time. People who go to heaven will exist there eternally. God must just be a really, really old guy.Mung
January 23, 2016
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As Spitzer makes clear, the only "prohibited infinity" is an actual infinity which means a completed set of things said to be infinite (including past time). Future time is not an actual infinity but a potential infinity. There is no prohibition against a potential infinity for the simple reason that it is not possible to reach the end. No matter how far time may progress, it will always be finite in duration. The future is always potential not actualized. As for infinite time in heaven, I think that is a highly misleading way to look at the next life. Eternity is not and cannot be the same thing as infinite time. It is something other than that, but the limitations of human thought cannot comprehend it.Laszlo
January 23, 2016
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The above youtube video is very good. Bruce Gordon's talk is especially amusing on the silliness of infinite past time and infinite universes. I wish I had the faith of the atheist; it's truly profound. I highly recommend Spitzer's video series (along with its study guide) From Nothing to CosmosRexTugwell
January 23, 2016
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Infinite anything is nonsense, let alone an infinite past. Even Yahweh says "I am the first and the last", which implies that there was a beginning. Infinity is illogical for a very simple reason. Nothing can be compared to infinity without introducing a contradiction. Why? It's because any finite quantity is infinitely small compared to infinity, making the quantity both finite and infinitesimal at the same time. As simple as that.Mapou
January 23, 2016
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JDH, It is (I assume) true that there is no "point of infinity" either in the future or the past. Furthermore, I assume you agree that there will be no "end" to time. People who go to heaven will exist there eternally. Why should there be a "start" to time, then? Why can't time be unbounded in both directions?daveS
January 23, 2016
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An infinite number of universes in sequence has the same problem as multiverse theories where you have an infinite number of universes "simultaneously". You can explain anything by chance quantum fluctuations and therefore science looses all explanatory power. For example if there are an infinite number of universes it could be due to chance that our universe is 6000 years old and consists of just the sun and its planets with the rest being an illusion. If you invoke an infinite number of universes, or infinite time, to account for something improbable, you have no grounds on which to assert which improbable thing happened by chance.Jim Smith
January 23, 2016
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I think this is really obvious if you think of it this way. One definition of infinity that I like is a kind of phenomenological definition. It goes like this: Think of the highest number you can imagine. There are still an infinite amount of numbers higher than that number. You notice the definition never speaks about where infinity actually lies on the number line. It just states that you can't reach the point of infinity by any series of steps or any advancement by a finite number no matter how large. So don't confuse the issue by thinking of the past. Let's look at the infinite future. Can you go out to visit the "time" of the infinite future. NO. No such real time as we know it exists. Any "time" we thought was the infinite future would always have an infinity of time left before it reached the infinite future. Can we go to the infinite future and then get back to the present in a series of finite steps from the infinite future. NO. Because you can't even start. You can't reach from any present time to the point at infinity future, so you can NEVER get there. The point is that NO series of finite calendar days can make it back to the infinite past or get to the infinite future. In this regard there is no difference between future and past. Beings which exist in a world where time differences allow events to be discussed in a chronological order, can never get to either the infinite past or infinite future by the passing of time. So it really is a simple as this. Do you live in a world where events at a single point in space can be observed to occur in a time sequence - then there CANNOT be an infinite past. Time had to have a beginning.JDH
January 23, 2016
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Bencze:
Here is one of several proofs that Spitzer offers to show the impossibility of infinite past time.
Is that really a "proof"? I don't find it particularly convincing. Infinite past time is a strange concept, but in my view no stranger than finite past time, or an omnipotent being existing "outside of time", etc.daveS
January 23, 2016
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