Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Arguing for Resemblance of Design (RD) instead of Intelligent Design (ID)

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[This is a follow on essay to Good and bad reasons for rejecting ID]

The irony is that one of the books most widely credited for inspiring the ID movement didn’t actually argue for ID! That book was Michael Denton’s book Evolution A Theory In Crisis. This book deeply influenced Phil Johnson, Michael Behe, and many others.

So what was Denton’s conclusion at the end of his book? He said the mystery of biology is as enigmatic today as it was at the time of Darwin’s voyage on the Beagle. He offered no explanation for the apparent design in biology, and offered no suggestion that ID nor creation should even be put on the table as answers. He just stated no one has figured out the mystery of biology.

Despite this, his book became and ID classic. How can it be a book that didn’t once argue for ID end up sparking the ID movement? Consider this statement by Dawkins:

Some of the greatest scientists who have ever lived ­ including Newton, who may have been the greatest of all ­ believed in God. But it was hard to be an atheist before Darwin: the illusion of living design is so overwhelming.

Richard Dawkins
You ask the questions

So even Dawkins acknowledges the resemblance of design in biology. I would argue it is simply natural for people, once they are convinced that something resembles design, if they are open to the idea, they’ll infer design naturally provided you can make a credible case that the analogy of biology to man-made designs cannot be explained by appeals to naturalistic mechanisms (like Darwinian evolution). Denton did exactly that.

So why formally remove claims of Intelligence out of ID theory? Before answering that question, consider the effect of including the claim of ID on 2 types of people.:

Type 1: sympathetic to ID — they’ll naturally accept ID as the cause, we don’t need to make the inference for them, they’ll make it on their own like Phil Johnson and Michael Behe did after reading Denton’s book, so claiming “ID is the most adequate explanation” really doesn’t have an effect on their decision most of the time.

Type 2: the hardened critic — they’ll naturally reject ID not matter what you say, whether you claim there is an Intelligent Designer or not, they’ll find a way to reject ID

If one insists ID is true, this is what you could be faced with — it gives the critic the following sort of red herrings to give the appearance he’s winning the case against ID. A smart anti-IDist would argue his case as follows:

1. Where is the Designer?
2. Who is the Designer?
3. Give me an experiment demonstrating the Designer?
4. How many experiments have you run to demonstrate the Intelligent Designer?
5. Just because something seems improbable doesn’t automatically mean there is Intelligent Design?
6. Can you tell me how you define intelligence?
7. What was the mechanism of design?……

you can’t answer these questions so your theory stinks.

But look at Denton’s book, he brilliantly avoided all those distracting questions. And the result? The modern ID movement was sparked into existence.

No need to put the issue of the Designer on the table. It doesn’t help the ID case, it just leads to distractions. Just argue the facts. The Intelligent Designer made the facts, and the facts will testify of Him.

You can also have a little fun pounding the anti-ID critic and demand:

1. give me a theory that explains the resemblance
2. give me an experiment that create the resemblance without intelligent manipulation
3. give me evidence the resemblance can naturally arise
4. show that chance can generate the resemblance
5. show that there can be a violation of No Free Lunch such that Darwinian evolution can do better than chance

etc.

What is the result of this strategy? Well consider recently, I offered a modest claim that finding 500 fair coins all heads is not consistent with the chance hypothesis. I’ll paraphrase what a critic said in response to my innocent claim:

if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins

😯

See! I didn’t have to get bogged down into discussion of who the Intelligent Designer is, how did He do the design, etc. Critics would much rather go into those red herring discussions than go anywhere near the issue of the resemblance of design and the inadequacy of natural mechanisms to create that resemblance.

An ID proponent gains no advantage in such debates by insisting: “life can’t arise by chance, therefore the Intelligent Designer did it”. You can say you believe this statement, but you can’t formally make that inference with the same confidence you’d make with a theorem of math. And even if you could, what does it gain you, the critic won’t be more convinced nor will people on the sideline be more convinced.

It was the very fact Denton didn’t overplay his hand, that he wasn’t trying to say “God did it” at every turn of the page” (as you find in the Answers in Genesis website), that he ended up being very persuasive to me.

I prefer to say “I believe in ID, I can’t prove ID is true, but I can show that biology resembles designs and known natural processes are not expected to create that resemblance.”. With such an approach, notions like CSI will become credible whereby CSI is only a measure of resemblance to a design, it doesn’t actually mandate ID is the only explanation. And I point out, not even Bill Dembski would argue in practice that ID need be the only explanation (even though we all know he believes in his heart that it is):

Thus, a scientist may view design and its appeal to a designer as simply a fruitful device for understanding the world, not attaching any significance to questions such as whether a theory of design is in some ultimate sense true or whether the designer actually exists. Philosophers of science would call this a constructive empiricist approach to design. Scientists in the business of manufacturing theoretical entities like quarks, strings, and cold dark matter could therefore view the designer as just one more theoretical entity to be added to the list. I follow here Ludwig Wittgenstein, who wrote, “What a Copernicus or a Darwin really achieved was not the discovery of a true theory but of a fertile new point of view.”

No Free Lunch

It suffices for me that ID is a believable explanation, whether others share that belief is up to them. Nothing I do can bring the Intelligent Designer into their experiments, but I think I can argue for the resemblance of design quite forcefully. I think this strategy is empirically and theoretically defensible. I think our colleague and critic RDFish and others have made a good point about the problem of defining intelligence and how this problematic for ID.

A second point RDFIsh made is that an Intelligent Designer is always a sufficient condition to explain every phenomenon. A point I agree with. The issue is then whether there are phenomenon in principle where an Intelligent Designer is not only a sufficient explanation, but a necessary one. Do I think there are certain designs that in principle can’t be explained by natural causes? Yes. Do I think such designs appear in biology? Yes, but that is a separate post.

The point of this essay is that Resemblance of Design arguments are more defensible than ID arguments. Am I proposing we re-label ID theory? No. Its scandalous title is a good marketing point. 🙂 I am merely pointing out, I don’t feel comfortable saying, “it looks designed therefore definitely the Intelligent Designer did it”. I’m content to say, “it looks designed”. The facts of resemblance will argue for ID. Argue the facts, argue the resemblance.

Finally, if neither Denton nor Berlinski were convinced the Intelligent Designer made the designs of biology (and they are clearly ID sympathetic by most standards), why should I presume any one will automatically accept ID when presented with the facts? People make up their minds on their own whether there is a need for an Intelligent Designer, we don’t have try to draw conclusions for them. In my experience, it’s pointless to even try.

Comments
RD:
Ok, so “intelligence” is another word for “agency”. You can guess that now I need to understand what you mean by “agency”.
One that can manipulate nature for it's own or some purpose. And AGAIN, we have many investigative venues that depend on our ability to differentiate between nature, operating freely and agency involvement. You can ignore that all you want but we know what that makes you.Joe
June 28, 2013
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Here ya go Lizzie:
The confusion centered on what the adjective "intelligent" is doing in the phrase "intelligent design." "Intelligent," after all, can mean nothing more than being the result of an intelligent agent, even one who acts stupidly. On the other hand, it can mean that an intelligent agent acted with skill, mastery, and eclat. Shermer and Prothero understood the "intelligent" in "intelligent design" to mean the latter, and thus presumed that intelligent design must entail optimal design. The intelligent design community, on the other hand, means the former and thus separates intelligent design from questions of optimality. But why then place the adjective "intelligent" in front of the noun "design"? Doesn't design already include the idea of intelligent agency, so that juxtaposing the two becomes an exercise in redundancy? Not at all. Intelligent design needs to be distinguished from apparent design on the one hand and optimal design on the other. Apparent design looks designed but really isn't. Optimal design is perfect design and hence cannot exist except in an idealized realm (sometimes called a "Platonic heaven"). Apparent and optimal design empty design of all practical significance.
From Intelligent Design is Not Optimal DesignJoe
June 28, 2013
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Hi Elizabeth, Sure, I'll write up a post for TSZ - thanks! Yes I've read all of Demski's remarks on intelligence. His notion that "intelligence" refers to "the power and facility to choose between options" is another way of saying "libertarian free will", which is a concept I consider to be incoherent, but in any case it is certainly not something we can confirm to exist in our uniform and repeated experience. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 28, 2013
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Hi Joe, Ok, so "intelligence" is another word for "agency". You can guess that now I need to understand what you mean by "agency".
And yes, we can and do look at some particular phenomenon and decide if it is an instance of nature operating freely or not. We have many investigative venues that rely on our ability to do so.
Here's how I think that works: Q: What is responsible for CSI in living things? A: Intelligence! Q: What is intelligence? A: Agency (not nature operating freely)! Q: How can we identify agency (when nature is not operating freely)? A: When something creates CSI!!! And around and around we go :-) Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 28, 2013
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Dembski has defined Intelligence as:
the power and facility to choose between options
Intelligent Design Coming Clean , 2000Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
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Hi RD, Intelligence = Agency- I gave you the Dembski article. And yes, we can and do look at some particular phenomenon and decide if it is an instance of nature operating freely or not. We have many investigative venues that rely on our ability to do so. BTW, please read "Nature, Design and Science" cheeriosJoe
June 28, 2013
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RDFish
Thanks! I’ve changed my position a bit over the years too. I used to say that it could will be that evolutionary theory was fundamentally incomplete; I’m now convinced that it is obviously so, and clearly incapable of accounting for biological complexity. I’m still of the same mind toward ID, though: The concept of “intelligence” is little more than semantic sleight-of-hand in the context of ID, smuggling in a host of anthropocentric connotations without acknowledgement or empirical support, and implicitly assuming all sorts of speculative metaphysics regarding the nature of mind. I’m certainly not a materialist (I think consciousness is the deep, central mystery of our existence and not simply what it feels like to have a brain), but I don’t believe that dualism/interactionism/libertarianism (the default view around here I think) is a viable position at all. So I remain a mysterian, content to argue that we do not know the answers to these deep questions.
That's interesting. Would you like to write this up for a post at TSZ?Elizabeth B Liddle
June 28, 2013
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Hi Joe, Everyone who tells me what "intelligence" means in the context of ID says something different. I believe what you say is that intelligence means "counterflow", or the opposite of nature operating freely, or something like that. I do not believe that is a coherent concept, because there is no way you've ever given to look at some particular phenomenon and decide if it is an instance of nature operating freely or not. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 28, 2013
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RD :
Here you are using “intelligence” as a noun, but I do not know what that noun means.
Even though you have been told multiple times... :roll:Joe
June 28, 2013
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I agree with Dr. Behe on design: "Many scientists disagree with my conclusions because they see that the idea of intelligent design has extrascientific implications—that it seems to point strongly beyond nature. This conclusion makes many people nervous. However, I was always taught that science is supposed to follow the evidence wherever it leads. In my view it is a failure of nerve to back away from something that is so strongly indicated by the evidence simply because you think the conclusion has unwelcome philosophical implications." (Awake!, September 2006)Barb
June 28, 2013
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Hi Sal,
As I pondered your position and compared it to Denton and Berlinski’s, I realized I had been too polemic regarding your views of ID in the past. Apologies.
Thanks! I've changed my position a bit over the years too. I used to say that it could will be that evolutionary theory was fundamentally incomplete; I'm now convinced that it is obviously so, and clearly incapable of accounting for biological complexity. I'm still of the same mind toward ID, though: The concept of "intelligence" is little more than semantic sleight-of-hand in the context of ID, smuggling in a host of anthropocentric connotations without acknowledgement or empirical support, and implicitly assuming all sorts of speculative metaphysics regarding the nature of mind. I'm certainly not a materialist (I think consciousness is the deep, central mystery of our existence and not simply what it feels like to have a brain), but I don't believe that dualism/interactionism/libertarianism (the default view around here I think) is a viable position at all. So I remain a mysterian, content to argue that we do not know the answers to these deep questions.
I know we won’t agree on many things, but I hope I’ve acknowledge that I respect your view point.
I appreciate that! Again I find you to be an honest seeker of positions that make sense and ring true, rather than somebody who just enjoys fighting with people on the internet :-)
Obviously the one area we can’t agree on is ID. I’ve tried to respect that the formal demonstration of an Intelligent Designer is not accessible, it is only by supposition imho, not formal proof (as we do in math). If ID is false in the ultimate sense, I would think acceptance of it was at least an honest mistake.
Again I do not consider ID to be wrong; rather its truth cannot be evaluated without further qualifications. (This is unsurprisingly my position on theism as well, which is sometimes called ignosticism).
I’m not insisting you or Denton or Berlinski are wrong, what I am saying, like many ID proponents, for us, when we look at things like the Monarch butterfly or so many many other examples, it’s too hard to believe it wasn’t brought about by an intelligence.
Here you are using "intelligence" as a noun, but I do not know what that noun means. Does it mean something that can talk and listen, read and write, see and hear? Does it have beliefs and desires? Emotions and sensations? Does it makes plans the way people do, with time-ordered sequences of activities, prior to taking actions? When people use the word "intelligence" they are thinking about human beings, whether they realize it or not. But it seems obvious to me that whatever caused complex biological systems to exist was nothing like a human being.
I am ambivalent to the “ID is science” argument. I’m not ambivalent to “ID has religious implications” argument. If I were to err on the side of ID, I feel, in light of Pascal’s wager, the expected value of potentially being right with God outweighs the potential of being right with a mindless reality. If I’m wrong about ID and reality is ultimately rooted in mindless process, I’ve lost little by being wrong, but if there is a God, and if He did make life, I will have missed out. That’s my personal opinion, it has little if any relevance to the technicalities of CSI or evolutionary theories, but that’s what is really important to me, may be not others, but to me. If one asked me why I accept ID, I have not problem admitting, part of it is rooted in personal belief and unprovable suppositions. I’ve come to accept that there are simply things we cannot formally prove, and that is why I took your side on the matters and not StephenB in some of the recent discussions.
I understand and respect all of that.
What I have written over the years at UD and on the net is an expression of my incredulity with non-ID explanations. I may be wrong, but well, the opposite explanation that there was no MIND behind life in the universe seems a much harder pill to swallow.
People are comfortable when there are two sides, two explanations, and one of them is right and one is wrong. That is very obviously not the case when it comes to these Big Questions. Nobody knows the answers... and most people just hate that.
But it was hard to be an atheist before Darwin: the illusion of living design is so overwhelming.
There is no difference between how Dawkins thinks and the way very religious people think.
I think Darwin is wrong, therefore it is hard for me to not believe in ID. That is not a formal proof, but I cannot personally resist the sentiment.
I think Darwin is wrong, therefore I conclude that we do not know how living things came to exist.
I don’t think the “conscious” argument can be formally supported. Why? I can’t even prove you’re conscious, much less whatever made biology!
In my view, we solve the problem of other minds with a very comfortable induction: Other people are so very much like me in all observable respects (including brain anatomy and function), and they talk about being conscious the same way I do, so it is very likely other people are like me with regard to subjective conscious experience as well. None of this applies to the cause of life, the universe, and everything, so I think we have no reason to think It was (is) conscious. And if the Intelligent Designer isn't conscious.. what is it we are really saying about It? Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 28, 2013
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If you mean that the cause is conscious (which is what most people mean), then we can talk about whether or not that specific claim can be supported with good reasons. Cheers, RDFish
I don't think the "conscious" argument can be formally supported. Why? I can't even prove you're conscious, much less whatever made biology! I more or less find much to agree with in your statement. Salscordova
June 28, 2013
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We have a new commenter at UD whose comment was finally released. Apologies for the delay, but this site is heavily moderated. See his comment: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/arguing-for-resemblance-of-design-rd-instead-of-intelligent-design-id/#comment-459785 Welcome LoneResearcher to our humble blog.scordova
June 28, 2013
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Hi RD:
ID makes a mistake, however, by saying “no natural process could account for CSI”.
That is what the evidence demonstrates. To date every time we have observed CSI and knew the cause it has always been via agency involvement- always, 100% of the time. And we have never observed nature producing CSI- never, 0% of the time. That is how science works- knowledge of cause and effect relationships.Joe
June 28, 2013
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I agree completely – it’s very important to eliminate possibilities. ID makes a mistake, however, by saying “no natural process could account for CSI”. The problem there is that “natural processes” is not a well-defined class. It is generally described as the complement of (fixed law plus chance), but of course nobody knows if there is anything that is outside of (fixed law plus chance). In any event, we should all stop where Denton did. Eliminating possibilities does nothing to make “intelligent cause” a meaningful explanatory concept, nor does it provide reasons for thinking that we know anything specific about the cause of biological complexity.
Oh my goodness, after the last few years we can agree on a few things! As I pondered your position and compared it to Denton and Berlinski's, I realized I had been too polemic regarding your views of ID in the past. Apologies. I know we won't agree on many things, but I hope I've acknowledge that I respect your view point. Obviously the one area we can't agree on is ID. I've tried to respect that the formal demonstration of an Intelligent Designer is not accessible, it is only by supposition imho, not formal proof (as we do in math). If ID is false in the ultimate sense, I would think acceptance of it was at least an honest mistake. I'm not insisting you or Denton or Berlinski are wrong, what I am saying, like many ID proponents, for us, when we look at things like the Monarch butterfly or so many many other examples, it's too hard to believe it wasn't brought about by an intelligence. I am ambivalent to the "ID is science" argument. I'm not ambivalent to "ID has religious implications" argument. If I were to err on the side of ID, I feel, in light of Pascal's wager, the expected value of potentially being right with God outweighs the potential of being right with a mindless reality. If I'm wrong about ID and reality is ultimately rooted in mindless process, I've lost little by being wrong, but if there is a God, and if He did make life, I will have missed out. That's my personal opinion, it has little if any relevance to the technicalities of CSI or evolutionary theories, but that's what is really important to me, may be not others, but to me. If one asked me why I accept ID, I have not problem admitting, part of it is rooted in personal belief and unprovable suppositions. I've come to accept that there are simply things we cannot formally prove, and that is why I took your side on the matters and not StephenB in some of the recent discussions. What I have written over the years at UD and on the net is an expression of my incredulity with non-ID explanations. I may be wrong, but well, the opposite explanation that there was no MIND behind life in the universe seems a much harder pill to swallow. Ironically, Dawkins alludes to my sentiments:
But it was hard to be an atheist before Darwin: the illusion of living design is so overwhelming.
I think Darwin is wrong, therefore it is hard for me to not believe in ID. That is not a formal proof, but I cannot personally resist the sentiment.scordova
June 28, 2013
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Alan, shut up. YOU cannot produce a good testable hypothesis for materialism nor evolutionism. OTOH ID can be tested.Joe
June 28, 2013
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I see we are still playing fast and loose with "intelligent design"? Does anyone think bacteria have much in common with space shuttles? People designed the space shuttle. People do not design bacteria, notwithstanding Craig Venter. Questions about what are good arguments against ID are premature. There is no ID hypothesis or theory to have arguments about. Sheesh!Alan Fox
June 28, 2013
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F/N: I observe:
NR, at 5: >> Biological organisms do not look designed >>
The above clip and the wider thread provide a good example of the sort of polarisation and refusal to examine matters squarely on the merits that too often characterises objectors to design theory. Int eh case of coin tossing, all heads, all tails, alternating H and T, etc. are all obvious patterns that are simply describable (i.e. without in effect quoting the strings). Such patterns can be assigned a set of special zones, Z = {z1, z2, z3 . . . zn} of one or more outcomes, in the space of possibilities, W. Thus is effected a partition of the configuration space. It is quite obvious that |W| >> |Z|, overwhelmingly so; let us symbolise this |W| >> . . . > |Z|. Now, we put forth the Bernoulli-Laplace indifference assumption that is relevant here through the stipulation of a fair coin. (We can examine symmetry etc of a coin, or do frequency tests to see that such will for practical purposes be close enough. It is not hard to see that unless a coin is outrageously biased, the assumption is reasonable. [BTW, this implies that it is formally possible that if a fair coin is tossed 500 times, it is logically possible that it will be all heads. But that is not the pivotal point.]) When we do an exercise of tossing, we are in fact doing a sample of W, in which the partition that a given outcome, si in S [the set of possible samples], comes from, will be dominated by relative statistical weight. S is of course such that |S| >> . . . > |W|. That is, there are far more ways to sample from W in a string of actual samples s1, s2, . . . sn, than there are number of configs in W. (This is where the Marks-Dembski search for a search challenge, S4S, comes in. Sampling the samplings can be a bigger task than sampling the set of possibilities.) Where, now, we have a needle in haystack problem that on the gamut of the solar system [our practical universe for chemical level atomic interactions], the number of samples that is possible as an actual exercise is overwhelmingly smaller than S, and indeed than W. Under these circumstances, we take a sample si, 500 tosses. The balance of the partitions is such that by all but certainty, we will find a cluster of H & T in no particular order, close to 250 H: 250 T. The farther away one gets from that balance, the less likely it will be, through the sharp peakedness of the binomial distribution of fair coin tosses. Under these circumstances, we have no good reason to expect to see a special pattern like 500 H, etc. Indeed, such a unique and highly noticeable config will predictably -- with rather high reliability -- not be observed once on the gamut of the observed solar system, even were the solar system dedicated to doing nothing but tossing coins for its lifespan. That is chance manifest in coin tossing is not a plausible account for 500 H, or the equivalent, a line of 500 coins in a tray all H's. However, if we were now to come upon a tray with 500 coins, all H's, we can very plausibly account for it on a known, empirically grounded causal pattern: intelligent designers exist and have been known to set highly contingent systems to special values suited to their purposes. Indeed, such are the only empirically warranted sources. Where, for instance we are just such intelligences. So, the reasonable person coming on a tray of 500 coins in a row, all H, will infer that per best empirically warranted explanation, design is the credible cause. (And that person will infer the same if a coin tossing exercises presented as fair coin tossing, does the equivalent. We can reliably know that design is involved without knowing the mechanism.) Nor does this change if the discoverer did not see the event happening. That is, from a highly contingent outcome that does not fit chance very well but does fit design well, one may properly infer design as explanation. Indeed, that pattern of a specific, recognisable pattern utterly unlikely by chance but by no means inherently unlikely to the point of dismissal by design, is a plausible sign of design as best causal explanation. The same would obtain if instead of 500 H etc, we discovered that the coins were in a pattern that spelled out, using ASCII code, remarks in English or object code for a computer, etc. In this case, the pattern is recognised as a functionally specific, complex one. Why then, do we see such violent opposition to inferring design on FSCO/I etc in non-toy cases? Obviously, because objectors are making or are implying the a priori stipulation (often unacknowledged, sometimes unrecognised) that it is practically certain that no designer is POSSIBLE at the point in question. For under such a circumstance, chance is the only reasonable candidate left to account for high contingency. (Mechanical necessity does not lead to high contingency.) So, we see why there is a strong appearance of design, and we see why tehre is a reluctance or even violently hostile refusal to accept that that appearance can indeed be a good reason to accept that on the inductively reliable sign FSCO/I and related analysis, design is the best causal explanation. In short, we are back to the problem of materialist ideology dressed up in a lab coat. I think the time has more than come to expose that, and to highlight the problems with a priori materialism as a worldview, whether it is dressed up in a lab coat or not. We can start with Haldane's challenge:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
This and other related challenges (cf here on in context) render evolutionary materialism so implausible as a worldview that we may safely dismiss it. Never mind how it loves to dress up in a lab coat and shale the coat at us as if to frighten us. So, the reasonable person, in the face of such evidence, will accept the credibility of the sign -- FSCO/I -- and the possibility of design that such a strong and empirically grounded appearance points to. But, notoriously, ideologues are not reasonable persons. For further illustration, observe above the attempt to divert the discussion into definitions of what an intelligent and especially a conscious intelligent agent is. Spoken of course, by a conscious intelligent agent who is refusing to accept that the billions of us on the ground are examples of what intelligent designers are. Nope, until you can give a precising definition acceptable to him [i.e. inevitably, consistent with evolutionary materialism -- which implies or even denies that such agency is possible leading to self referential absurdity . . . ], he is unwilling to accept the testimony of his own experience and observation. I call that a breach of common sense and self referential incoherence. KFkairosfocus
June 28, 2013
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Hi Vivid,
That was why I asked .
Ok then, here are my definitions: "intelligent agent" (n.): an entity capable of generating large amounts of complex specified information "intelligently designed" (adj.): created by an intelligent agent
If you think your computer was intelligently designed we could work back and get a sufficient definition.
Well, I think we need to define our terms, and only then can we apply them to examples. By the definition I gave you, computers are intelligently designed.
I don’t have a dog in this hunt so why don’t you provide what you think is a sufficient definjtion.
I can't say if my definitions are sufficient - that depends on how you want to use them. This definition is not useful for ID theory, for example. But you asked for a definition, and there it is. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 28, 2013
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RDF
My point is that the term “intelligent agent” is not sufficiently well defined. Please provide a definition for the term; or if you’d rather, I will do so.
That was why I asked . If you think your computer was intelligently designed we could work back and get a sufficient definition. I don't have a dog in this hunt so why don't you provide what you think is a sufficient definjtion. Vividvividbleau
June 27, 2013
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And I should add that you seem to be confusing "consistent" with "expected". They don't mean the same thing. If you roll a fair die once, do you expect to get a '1'? No. If you roll a '1', is that consistent with a fair die? Yes. So are 2 through 6. 7 is not. It's obvious, Sal.keiths
June 27, 2013
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Sal, To say that "all heads" is not consistent with the physics of fair coins is to say that you can't get all heads when flipping a fair coin. Can you get all heads when flipping a coin once? Yes, obviously. Can you get all heads when flipping a coin five times? Yes, with less probability. What is the magic number at which getting all heads becomes "inconsistent with the physics of fair coins"? The answer, of course, is "it never does". The probability of getting all heads decreases as you add flips, but it never reaches zero. "All heads" is consistent with fair coins.keiths
June 27, 2013
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Hi Vivid,
RDF would you agree that your computer, I pad, car, etc are designed by an intelligent agent?
My point is that the term "intelligent agent" is not sufficiently well defined. Please provide a definition for the term; or if you'd rather, I will do so. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 27, 2013
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KeithS agrees with this statement:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
But the only way to defend that statement is to equivocate it to mean
Every specific outcome has the same probability: 1 in 2^500. Every specific outcome — including all heads — is consistent with the physics of fair coins.
which basically says: "every possible outcome is consistent with what is possible". Which says nothing! In effect it insinuates I made a claim which I didn't make. My original claim:
We can make an alternative mathematical argument that says if coins are all heads they are sufficiently inconsistent with the Binomial Distribution for randomly tossed coins, hence we can reject the chance hypothesis.
The Binomial distribution has an expected value associated with it. At issue was not appearance of specific outcomes in terms of exact sequences (with the exception of all heads or all tails) but expected outcomes in terms of the number of heads and where the sequencing of the heads relative to tails is ignored. For sequences near the expected value, the binomial distribution does not deal with specific sequences, only the number of heads (or tails) in sequences. So eigenstate equivocated the meaning of expected outcomes into something I didn't intend, namely, specific sequences. I was referring to expected outcomes (the binomial Distribution implies an expected outcome). He should have noticed that. He didn't. Instead he attributed his sloppy reading to my supposed sloppy thinking. The sloppiness was his, plus he added a rebuttal via equivocation, which is not really a rebuttal at all. But by him equivocating, the statement he made (my paraphrase) ends up sounding, er, not so smart:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
The only way to defend that statement is to equivocate the meaning of "perfectly consistent" to a mostly vacuous statement that says little more than "every physically possible sequence of fair coins is perfectly consistent with physically possible sequences of fair coins". But most readers won't buy that equivocation when they read:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
Because most will think "consistent" outcome means consistent with expected outcomes (i.e. 250 coins heads plus or minus a few standard deviations, where the sequence is not an issue, but only the number of heads). Eigenstate and KeithS should not have equivocated the meaning of what I meant. Now they pay the price because they are now sticking to this claim:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
And the only way they can defend the claim is to equivocate from what would be a natural reading of what is said or what I said. That shouldn't have happened in the first place especially since I was referring to the binomial distribution where expected outcomes are not described in terms of specific sequences. Because they are sticking to their equivocation, KeithS and Eigenstate have to now stand by this assertion with confidence, no matter how stupid it sounds:
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
:-)scordova
June 27, 2013
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ID isn’t right or wrong until you make some specific claims about what an “intelligent cause” is in the context of ID. If you mean that the cause is conscious (which is what most people mean), then we can talk about whether or not that specific claim can be supported with good reasons
. RDF would you agree that your computer, I pad, car, etc are designed by an intelligent agent? Vividvividbleau
June 27, 2013
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Hi Sal,
I’d say, if ID is ultimately wrong, there were good reasons for making an honest mistake.
ID isn't right or wrong until you make some specific claims about what an "intelligent cause" is in the context of ID. If you mean that the cause is conscious (which is what most people mean), then we can talk about whether or not that specific claim can be supported with good reasons. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 27, 2013
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Hi Sal,
We learn, or can infer what can’t cause it. We have at least eliminated some possibilities.
Yes. As far as I'm concerned, RM&NS (plus drift and any other documented evolutionary mechanism) is eliminated in terms of fully accounting for biological complexity.
That counts for something. Denton’s book is a good example of eliminating possibilities. Denton didn’t come out and say ID was true. He did cast doubt on proposed mechanisms. Eliminating possibilities still advances knowledge.
I agree completely - it's very important to eliminate possibilities. ID makes a mistake, however, by saying "no natural process could account for CSI". The problem there is that "natural processes" is not a well-defined class. It is generally described as the complement of (fixed law plus chance), but of course nobody knows if there is anything that is outside of (fixed law plus chance). In any event, we should all stop where Denton did. Eliminating possibilities does nothing to make "intelligent cause" a meaningful explanatory concept, nor does it provide reasons for thinking that we know anything specific about the cause of biological complexity. Cheers, RDFishRDFish
June 27, 2013
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Hi Sal Doesn't appear that Keth is able to process the difference between expectational value (EV) and probability . As a poker player we have names s for those types of players ie donkey or fish. The fishes who have big bankrolls are whales . The theory of poker revolves around EV. Vividvividbleau
June 27, 2013
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Of course, Sal. As I wrote above:
Every specific outcome has the same probability: 1 in 2^500. Every specific outcome — including all heads — is consistent with the physics of fair coins.
keiths
June 27, 2013
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KeithS, Do you agree with the following
if you have 500 flips of a fair coin that all come up heads, that outcome is perfectly consistent with fair coins
This is about the 3rd time I asked. Your silence on the matter is making a statement. :-)scordova
June 27, 2013
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