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COVID-19 and the need for skeptics in science

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Now more than ever:

Since World War II, America has suffered two respiratory pandemics comparable to COVID-19: the 1958 “Asian flu,” then the 1969 “Hong Kong flu.” In neither case did we shut down the economy—people were simply more careful. Not all that careful, of course—Jimi Hendrix was playing at Woodstock in the middle of the 1969 pandemic, and social distancing wasn’t really a thing in the “Summer of Love.”

And yet COVID-19 was very different thanks to a single “buggy mess” of a computer prediction from one Neil Ferguson, a British epidemiologist given to hysterical overestimates of deaths, from mad cow to bird flu to H1N1.

For COVID-19, Ferguson predicted 3 million deaths in America unless we basically shut down the economy. Panicked policymakers took his prediction as gospel, dressed as it was in the cloak of science.

Now, long after governments plunged half the world into a Great Depression, those panicked revisions are being quietly revised down by an order of magnitude, now suggesting a final tally comparable to 1958 and 1969.

COVID-19 would have been a deadly pandemic with or without Ferguson’s fantasies, but had we known the true scale and parameters of the threat we might have chosen better tailored means to both safeguard the elderly and at-risk, while sustaining the wider economy. After all, economists have long known that mass unemployment and widespread bankruptcies carry enormous health consequences that are very real to the victims suffering drained life savings, ruined businesses, broken families, widespread mental and physical health deterioration, even suicide. Decisions involve tradeoffs.

COVID-19 has illustrated the importance of free and robust inquiry…

Indeed, every major scientific advance challenged the “settled science” of its day, and was often denounced as pernicious and false, even dangerous. The modern blood transfusion, for example, was developed in the late 1600s, then banned for nearly a century by a hostile medical establishment, “canceling” tens of millions of lives at the altar of groupthink and hostility to skeptics.

Peter St. Onge, “The COVID-19 Panic Shows Us Why Science Needs Skeptics” at Mises Wire

The thing is, it used to just be sympathizers of some unpopular viewpoint like ID getting deplatformed. Now, COVID-19 has raised the stakes, with so many official sources demanding obedience to conflicting and wrong ideas. And our neighbors can’t afford to ignore just how destructive the establishment line, unfettered and unhinged, can be.

It’s a good time to talk to them about the problems with Establishment Science today. Too much arrogance and politicking; not enough humility or integrity.

Comments
JVL,
All I’m saying is that it could have done better. Much better. The richest country on the planet and it’s death rate is in the top 10 of all countries.
I didn't make any detailed predictions about where the US would end up, but I expected us to be among the worst in deaths per capita. I guess on paper we had sufficient resources to handle the pandemic well, but we're poor in other critical ways. We don't currently have the will to set aside political differences and unify. There is also plenty of incompetence to go around---I have worked at state and federal jobs, and it's almost always a clusterf*** on the inside.daveS
August 14, 2020
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Blah, blah, blah. Americans are not afraid, JVL. We understand the risks that pertain to living. The USA was founded on the greatest risk of all- taking on a global super power. People are dying due to their own choices. That is by far much better than being a sheep and living scared. Perhaps if the politicians pulled their collective heads from their collective bottoms, they would announce the medically recommended prophylaxis. But they haven't because either they are corrupt or just stupid.ET
August 14, 2020
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ET: We are doing fine. It’s the politicians that are the problem You're not doing 'fine'. Look at the daily new cases for the US and compare it to most European countries. Look at the daily deaths and compare it to most European countries. Compare it to Japan with a much higher population density but a death due to COVID-19 per one million people of 8 whereas the US value is 515 (and rising). With all that money, all that power, all that technology, etc the US is catching up with some of the countries that handled the virus the worst. You're not doing okay; tens of thousands of your fellow citizens are dying because of bad management. Over 170,000 COVID-19 deaths in about six months. The highest total in the world by a long, long ways. Total cases per one million people: 8th highest and that's including Qatar, French Guiana, Bahrain, San Marino, Chile , Panama and Kuwait. None of those countries have populations over 20 million. The US also has the 10th highest death rate in the world and all the countries with a worse rate have less than 70 million people. Tens of thousands of Americans are dying of COVID-19 and you think you're doing okay?JVL
August 14, 2020
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Kairosfocus: Japan and the US are both in the under 5% cloud, the UK, Italy, Spain are in a second much higher cluster and Canada is a bit above the band. The data/graph you provided was current up to mid-April. Really? Your hanging your argument on old data? My point is, there is no real cause to single out the US and pretend that it is a singular failure. All I'm saying is that it could have done better. Much better. The richest country on the planet and it's death rate is in the top 10 of all countries. Many other countries should have done better as well, the UK definitely included. Boris Johnson and his government's failures are legion, sadly. Even after he has admitted he almost died from COVID-19 his government keeps dropping the ball. And they're bungling other policies as well. He's not a good leader. I'm happy to extol the shortcomings of the UK politicians.JVL
August 14, 2020
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Bornagain77: Well JVL, I do care about others and that is precisely why I point out the insanity of your worldview over and over again. Can't we just pull out your greatest hits album when we want to instead of you travelling from thread to thread forcing it on us? Though you refuse the acknowledge that your atheism is false, others may learn from your stubbornness: So, it's not about science at all? It's about theism? Anyway, ET tells me I need to think independently but when I think differently from you I'm wrong. So, I guess, the message is: think like us and be good, think like them and be bad. I tell you what: I'll just make up my own mind if that's okay with you. (But it won't be if I disagree with you.)JVL
August 14, 2020
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JVL:
Perhaps President Trunp should have consulted with the governors to come up with a plan they could all agree on.
Each State is different. So there wouldn't be one plan. Even the President explained that.
Anyway, the country, as a whole, could have done much better.
We are doing fine. It's the politicians that are the problemET
August 14, 2020
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KF
I have noted the very near zone, and have noted that this would explain the suggestion
We both know that HCQ has three basic sites available for protonation having pka values of <4, 8.5, $ 9.7. At physiological pH, upon absorption into the blood stream, two of those sites would be protonated. Upon arrival at a ACE receptor site there is simply no place on the HCQ molecule to bind protons so there would be no 'surface effect'. The third proton-binding site would require a fatal change in pH before protonation, and thus pH change effect, could occur. This proposed mechanism is physiologically and chemically dead in the water.
As for mechanisms, we have the facts from 40 years of successful use in aquariums that shows there are effective core cross-kingdom level cell process attack mechanisms (which I suspect we have not fully identified)
with a recognized and documented mechanism of action for the majority of the parasites treated, namely protozoan species. This mechanism of action, lysosomal pH changes has been linked to incresed infectivity from RNA virus. Given the high concentration of chloroquine in aquaria treatment a simple mass effect rather than specific targeted mechanism is more likely a reason for the toxicity observed in other species, i.e., algae.RHolt
August 14, 2020
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F/N: I clip the first list of Q's in an open letter to Dr Fauci: >>Open Letter to Dr. Anthony Fauci Regarding the Use of Hydroxychloroquine for Treating COVID-19 By George C. Fareed, MD Brawley, California Michael M. Jacobs, MD, MPH Pensacola, Florida Donald C. Pompan, MD Salinas, California . . . . QUESTIONS REGARDING EARLY OUTPATIENT TREATMENT There are generally two stages of COVID-19 symptomatic infection; initial flu like symptoms with progression to cytokine storm and respiratory failure, correct? When people are admitted to a hospital, they generally are in worse condition, correct? There are no specific medications currently recommended for early outpatient treatment of symptomatic COVID-19 infection, correct? Remdesivir and Dexamethasone are used for hospitalized patients, correct? There is currently no recommended pharmacologic early outpatient treatment for individuals in the flu stage of the illness, correct? It is true that COVID-19 is much more lethal than the flu for high-risk individuals such as older patients and those with significant comorbidities, correct? Individuals with signs of early COVID-19 infection typically have a runny nose, fever, cough, shortness of breath, loss of smell, etc., and physicians send them home to rest, eat chicken soup etc., but offer no specific, targeted medications, correct? These high-risk individuals are at high risk of death, on the order of 15% or higher, correct? So just so we are clear—the current standard of care now is to send clinically stable symptomatic patients home, “with a wait and see” approach? Are you aware that physicians are successfully using Hydroxychloroquine combined with Zinc and Azithromycin as a “cocktail” for early outpatient treatment of symptomatic, high-risk, individuals? Have you heard of the “Zelenko Protocol,” for treating high-risk patients with COVID 19 as an outpatient? Have you read Dr. Risch’s article in the American Journal of Epidemiology of the early outpatient treatment of COVID-19? Are you aware that physicians using the medication combination or “cocktail” recommend use within the first 5 to 7 days of the onset of symptoms, before the illness impacts the lungs, or cytokine storm evolves? Again, to be clear, your recommendation is no pharmacologic treatment as an outpatient for the flu—like symptoms in patients that are stable, regardless of their risk factors, correct? Would you advocate for early pharmacologic outpatient treatment of symptomatic COVID-19 patients if you were confident that it was beneficial? Are you aware that there are hundreds of physicians in the United States and thousands across the globe who have had dramatic success treating high-risk individuals as outpatients with this “cocktail?” Are you aware that there are at least 10 studies demonstrating the efficacy of early outpatient treatment with the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail for high-risk patients — so this is beyond anecdotal, correct? If one of your loved ones had diabetes or asthma, or any potentially complicating comorbidity, and tested positive for COVID-19, would you recommend “wait and see how they do” and go to the hospital if symptoms progress? Even with multiple studies documenting remarkable outpatient efficacy and safety of the Hydroxychloroquine “cocktail,” you believe the risks of the medication combination outweigh the benefits? Is it true that with regard to Hydroxychloroquine and treatment of COVID-19 infection, you have said repeatedly that “The Overwhelming Evidence of Properly Conducted Randomized Clinical Trials Indicate No Therapeutic Efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ)?” But NONE of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done in the first 5 to 7 days after the onset of symptoms- correct? All of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer were done on hospitalized patients, correct? Hospitalized patients are typically sicker that outpatients, correct? None of the randomized controlled trials to which you refer used the full cocktail consisting of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin, correct? While the University of Minnesota study is referred to as disproving the cocktail, the meds were not given within the first 5 to 7 days of illness, the test group was not high risk (death rates were 3%), and no zinc was given, correct? Again, for clarity, the trials upon which you base your opinion regarding the efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine, assessed neither the full cocktail (to include Zinc + Azithromycin or doxycycline) nor administered treatment within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, nor focused on the high-risk group, correct? Therefore, you have no basis to conclude that the Hydroxychloroquine cocktail when used early in the outpatient setting, within the first 5 to 7 days of symptoms, in high risk patients, is not effective, correct? It is thus false and misleading to say that the effective and safe use of Hydroxychloroquine, Zinc, and Azithromycin has been “debunked,” correct? How could it be “debunked” if there is not a single study that contradicts its use? Should it not be an absolute priority for the NIH and CDC to look at ways to treat Americans with symptomatic COVID-19 infections early to prevent disease progression? The SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 virus is an RNA virus. It is well-established that Zinc interferes with RNA viral replication, correct? Moreover, is it not true that hydroxychloroquine facilitates the entry of zinc into the cell, is a “ionophore,” correct? Isn’t also it true that Azithromycin has established anti-viral properties? Are you aware of the paper from Baylor by Dr. McCullough et. al. describing established mechanisms by which the components of the “HCQ cocktail” exert anti-viral effects? So- the use of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin (or doxycycline) and zinc, the “HCQ cocktail,” is based on science, correct?>> We shall see. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2020
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RHolt, I have noted the very near zone, and have noted that this would explain the suggestion. I also note that London forces would be relevant, but that is secondary. As for mechanisms, we have the facts from 40 years of successful use in aquariums that shows there are effective core cross-kingdom level cell process attack mechanisms (which I suspect we have not fully identified), and the concs are reasonable. You should also be aware of ionophore effects. I have headlined Dr Risch's further remarks. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2020
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JVL, you know perfectly well that I am speaking of a scatterplot and am marking two distinct groups. Japan and the US are both in the under 5% cloud, the UK, Italy, Spain are in a second much higher cluster and Canada is a bit above the band. My point is, there is no real cause to single out the US and pretend that it is a singular failure. That is clear. What is interesting is why there is such resistance to it, as though there is such polarisation that any and every thing must be wrenched to fit a narrative of failure. Frankly, after the one day after election sudden dramatic turnaround in news on the great 90's recession, I stopped taking the media as anywhere near honest reporters rather than destructive manipulators. Ever since, I have seen no reason to revise that conclusion. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2020
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KF
I commented in context of the suggested mechanism of altering ACE2 shape enough to frustrate spike protein lock. This suggests the very near surface zone. So too, local would be the immediate environment of the cell, and that in tissue. That would be a surface effect. If there is reason to disbelieve it, other proposed attack modes would remain.
I know you are well aware of the power of a buffered system to resist change in pH. Given that the bicarb concentrations are 10000X greater than HCQ (assumed at uMol levels demonstrated to be toxic) everywhere the HCQ is present there is an overwhelming number of bicarb molecules to buffer the system. A conformational change in ACE receptor due to pH change appears to no longer be a viable mechanism. I also don't recall that mechanism ever being documented in vitro or in vivo. We also have relevant species specific cell culture data, human lung cells, demonstrating that HCQ has not effect on preventing or truncating COVID infection with a enzymatic mechanism proposed for this inability to prevent infection. We also have, as ET's reference points out, how HCQ impact on lysosomal pH is slow in onset and slow onset of resulting physiological effects as per treatment of RA demonstrates. We also have data with RNA virus how disruption of lysosomal processes, via pH changes, can lead to increase infectivity. we also have, as per Jerry's recent citation, that the largest COVID-19 treatment center in India see zero benefit in positive-testing patients with HCQ (with or without AZ and/or zinc) treatment. There comes a point in time where one has to ask what plausable mechanism of action remain for HCQ's proposed antiviral properties. It appears that the candidate list of mechanisms has been exhausted. Given all this accumulating data what 'lines of attack' remain as plausable mechanism(s) of action for HCQ antiviral effects? As per 'the dose makes the poison' it is a fairly universal first introduction to pharmacology and toxicology students around the world. It does have an impact on students who have never considered this aspect of physiology.RHolt
August 14, 2020
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Well JVL, I do care about others and that is precisely why I point out the insanity of your worldview over and over again. Though you refuse the acknowledge that your atheism is false, others may learn from your stubbornness:
A DEFENSE OF THE (Divine) REVELATION AGAINST THE OBJECTIONS OF FREETHINKERS, BY MR. (Leonard) EULER Excerpt: "The freethinkers (atheists) have yet to produce any objections that have not long been refuted most thoroughly. But since they are not motivated by the love of truth, and since they have an entirely different point of view, we should not be surprised that the best refutations count for nothing and that the weakest and most ridiculous reasoning, which has so often been shown to be baseless, is continuously repeated. If these people maintained the slightest rigor, the slightest taste for the truth, it would be quite easy to steer them away from their errors; but their tendency towards stubbornness makes this completely impossible." http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~euler/docs/translations/E092trans.pdf
bornagain77
August 14, 2020
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JVL, when governors refuse to properly address riots as riots, that is a clue. KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2020
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Some pointed q's: https://corsination.com/open-letter-to-dr-anthony-fauci/kairosfocus
August 14, 2020
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ET: Again, in the USA it is up to the STATE Governments, and not the Federal Government. The President wanted control and the States fought back. Perhaps President Trunp should have consulted with the governors to come up with a plan they could all agree on. He can be very confrontational. Anyway, the country, as a whole, could have done much better.JVL
August 14, 2020
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BornAgain77: I really don't see the point of having the same argument over and over and over again. You clearly want to bring up the same points.with me endlessly. To what end? To prove to yourself that my point of view is horrible? I think you've said that a bunch of times already? To look good in front of others? You don't seem the type to care about what others think. I don't get it. Why don't you just let it go? We're not changing a thing having another argument.JVL
August 14, 2020
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Et - almost all of the studies are retrospective, so patients weren't randomised into treatment arms. This can lead to all sorts of biases if the control and treatment groups aren't very similar. For example, if the group getting HCQ is younger or has less co-morbidities, survival will be greater. For some studies the groups have been in different places (e.g. different hospitals), so other aspects of treatment may be different. And finally, the researchers carrying out the studies might by analysing their data in a way which makes a positive outcome more likely (e.g. removing patients who died). It's even possible to create a positive result by under-estimating the amount of sampling variation (as Watanabe does). To b clear - I am not suggesting a deliberate effort to mislead, it is perfectly possible to make mistakes in studies without realising it.Bob O'H
August 14, 2020
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Kairosfocus: BTW, in that April group, Japan was in line with the US. Please take a look at the graphs for the US and Japan and tell me they were even close. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/ In particular, pay attention to the daily death graphs and the difference in the vertical scales.JVL
August 14, 2020
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JVL:
I think the US government could have done a better job handling the virus as did other countries.
Again, in the USA it is up to the STATE Governments, and not the Federal Government. The President wanted control and the States fought back.ET
August 14, 2020
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Bob O'H- How can there be any positive studies for HCQ? The way you guys spew, HCQ doesn't do anything.ET
August 14, 2020
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JVL states:
Truthfreedom: Yes, lives matter. But you CAN NOT coherently explain why. Why should a bunch of chemicals worry about another bunch of chemicals? JVL: Why is it you want to fight even when we agree about something? You keep going on and on and on about how I shouldn’t care about other humans beings when, actually, I do.
Ignore the elephant in the living room much JVL?
"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” - Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life "Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear — and these are basically Darwin’s views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either." - William Provine
Shoot, there are not even any persons to care about in Darwinism, you are just a 'meat robot', i.e. a machine!
Darwin's Robots: When Evolutionary Materialists Admit that Their Own Worldview Fails - Nancy Pearcey - April 23, 2015 Excerpt: "When I look at my children, I can, when I force myself, ... see that they are machines." Is that how he treats them, though? Of course not: "That is not how I treat them.... I interact with them on an entirely different level. They have my unconditional love, the furthest one might be able to get from rational analysis." Certainly if what counts as "rational" is a materialist worldview in which humans are machines, then loving your children is irrational. It has no basis within Brooks's worldview. It sticks out of his box. How does he reconcile such a heart-wrenching cognitive dissonance? He doesn't. Brooks ends by saying, "I maintain two sets of inconsistent beliefs." He has given up on any attempt to reconcile his theory with his experience. He has abandoned all hope for a unified, logically consistent worldview. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/04/when_evolutiona095451.html
"You", (if there is even such a thing as a 'you' in Darwinian materialism), may say that you agree with TF, but your Darwinian worldview itself profoundly disagrees with your stated belief that you genuinely care about other people.. This impossibility for Atheists to live their lives consistently as if their atheistic worldview were actually true directly undermines their claim that Atheism is true. Specifically, as the following article points out, if it is impossible for you to live your life consistently as if atheistic materialism were actually true, then atheistic materialism cannot possibly reflect reality as it really is but atheistic materialism must instead be based on a delusion.
Existential Argument against Atheism - November 1, 2013 by Jason Petersen 1. If a worldview is true then you should be able to live consistently with that worldview. 2. Atheists are unable to live consistently with their worldview. 3. If you can’t live consistently with an atheist worldview then the worldview does not reflect reality. 4. If a worldview does not reflect reality then that worldview is a delusion. 5. If atheism is a delusion then atheism cannot be true. Conclusion: Atheism is false. http://answersforhope.com/existential-argument-atheism/
As Sedgwick told Darwin, “There is a moral or metaphysical part of nature as well as a physical A man who denies this is deep in the mire of folly”
From Adam Sedgwick 24 November 1859 – Cambridge My dear Darwin ,,, There is a moral or metaphysical part of nature as well as a physical A man who denies this is deep in the mire of folly Tis the crown & glory of organic science that it does thro’ final cause , link material to moral; & yet does not allow us to mingle them in our first conception of laws, & our classification of such laws whether we consider one side of nature or the other— You have ignored this link; &, if I do not mistake your meaning, you have done your best in one or two pregnant cases to break it. Were it possible (which thank God it is not) to break it, humanity in my mind, would suffer a damage that might brutalize it—& sink the human race into a lower grade of degradation than any into which it has fallen since its written records tell us of its history. ,,, https://www.darwinproject.ac.uk/letter/DCP-LETT-2548.xml
bornagain77
August 14, 2020
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ET @ 629 -
53 studies (31 peer reviewed) showing “very positive” results using HCQ as pre & post exposure prophylaxis & early treatment– How can that be?
Partly because if you actually look at the data, there are only 18 studies with positive "results using HCQ as pre & post exposure prophylaxis & early treatment", and 7 they they classify as "inconclusive" (plus a couple of meta-analyses). In one "positive" study the authors didn't find a positive effect. Almost all are observational, and one of the trials actually found no difference.Bob O'H
August 14, 2020
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JVL, that the US was manifestly in line with many major countries in this crisis tells us that this was a difficult challenge and that the countries with the most capability were performing more or less in a group. One may wish to debate within group differences all one wants and may posit all sorts of explanations or expectations. We for cause will reserve a right to evaluate such critiques for ourselves; not every dog that barks after a car can get in and drive. There is no good cause to infer that given its circumstances [including, culture and deeply, needlessly polarised politics . . . ], the USA would have otherwise performed materially rather than marginally better (or worse) in this crisis. Too many critiques come across as what Americans call something like Monday morning, armchair or office water cooler quarterbacking. KF PS: BTW, in that April group, Japan was in line with the US. A fruitful focus for consideration would be why was there a significant secondary wave in the US on a timeline correlated to mass public expressions of polarisation that were suddenly regarded as exceptions to the priority on lock down. This last destroyed the credibility of calls for continued lockdown. I think also, comparison with bad flu years are worth making.kairosfocus
August 14, 2020
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Truthfreedom: Yes, lives matter. But you CAN NOT coherently explain why. Why should a bunch of chemicals worry about another bunch of chemicals? Why is it you want to fight even when we agree about something? You keep going on and on and on about how I shouldn't care about other humans beings when, actually, I do. Prolonging people’s lives to force them to “know” they are pointless heaps of chemicals with no purpose… To me, JVL, that’s akin to torture. IMMORAL and REPULSIVE. I'm not forcing anyone to believe anything. Sometimes you are really insulting. Are you sure you really care about other people or just the ones you agree with?JVL
August 14, 2020
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Upright Biped: You are a flaming anti-science hypocrite JVL. Truly so. Would you like to start our conversation over about your claim of “no evidence for design” in biology — and have it be publicly shown once again that you clearly and deliberately ignore that evidence? This is, after all, a website about design in biology. I am greatly flattered that you choose to follow me around UD and bring up the same issues over and over again; even on threads which are dedicated to other topics. Obviously you care about my opinion very much. Unfortunately I don't have anything of substance to add to our previous conversations. No matter how many times we have that conversation, not one thing will change – the physics will not change, the recorded literature will not change, the documented history of discovery will not change, the fundamental material prerequisites will not change, and neither will your unwavering ideological need to dismiss it all in favor of your priori worldview. You do realize, don’t you, that these conversations are recorded in text, and can be quickly recalled with just a click of the mouse? Obviously they are recorded. I don't have them bookmarked so I can go back and find them though.JVL
August 14, 2020
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Kairosfocus: JVL, did you actually look at the data as shown? It clearly demonstrated that the US was in line with the rest of the world (including a cluster of advanced countries) on its age profile. Similarly, cases and fatalities were on the way down. Subsequently there was an obvious injection triggering a second peak, now fading. Your rhetorical zinger smart quip fails Yes I have looked at the data, and my point is that there are a lot of countries that handled things much better than the US or the UK or France or Spain or Belgium or Italy. I am particularly displeased with the UK and they are still bumbling about not learning the lessons from other countries. Like the UK Japan is an island nation off the coast of a large landmass where there are a lot of infectious people but Japan's death rate is much, much lower.: 8 deaths per million people. 8. And Japan has almost twice as many people as the UK with a higher population density.JVL
August 14, 2020
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ET: LoL! @ JVL- YOU are the one trying to pin something on the USA’s Federal Government. You are clueless. The people of the USA thankfully aren’t like the sheep in the rest of the world. I think the US government could have done a better job handling the virus as did other countries. Population density. Are you daft? Europe, India and China are much more dense than the US and yet the US death rate is almost as high. Japan's density is much higher than the US and its death rate is 8 per million. 8 It's not just about population density; it's about letting the population move about unnecessarily without proper precautions.JVL
August 14, 2020
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More from professor Risch: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/hydroxychloroquine-works-in-high-risk-patients-and-saying-otherwise-is-dangerous >>personal attacks are a dangerous distraction from the real issue of hydroxychloroquine's effectiveness, which is solidly grounded in both substantial evidence and appropriate medical decision-making logic. Much of the evidence is presented in my articles. To date, there are no studies whatsoever, published or in pre-print, that provide scientific evidence against the treatment approach for high-risk outpatients that I have described. None. Assertions to the contrary, whether by Fauci, the FDA, or anyone else, are without foundation. They constitute misleading and toxic disinformation. What do you need to know to evaluate these smears against hydroxychloroquine? The first thing to understand is that COVID-19 has two main stages. [--> see charts here, recall, suppressed by Google, HT Yandex] At the first stage, it is a flu-like illness. That illness will not kill you. If you are a high-risk patient and begin treatment immediately, you will almost certainly be done with it in a few days. When not [adequately?] treated, high-risk patients may progress. The virus then causes severe pneumonia and attacks many organs, including the heart. In this second stage, hydroxychloroquine is not effective. So, if you are told that hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work, ask this question: In which patients? Does it not work in those who have just started to have symptoms, or those sick enough to require hospitalization? The second thing to know is that most low-risk patients survive without treatment. Low risk means you are under age 60 and have no chronic conditions such as diabetes, obesity, and hypertension, have no past treatment for cancer, are not immunocompromised, etc. High risk means you are over 60 or you have one or more of those chronic conditions. High-risk patients need immediate treatment when they first show symptoms. One should not wait for the COVID-19 test result, which can take days and can be wrong. Again, when Fauci and others say that randomized controlled trials show no benefit for hydroxychloroquine, you must ask: In which group of patients? Every randomized controlled trial to date that has looked at early outpatient treatment has involved low-risk patients, patients who are not generally treated. In these studies, so few untreated control patients have required hospitalization that significant differences were not found. There has been only one exception: In a study done in Spain with low-risk patients, a small number of high-risk nursing home patients were included. For those patients, the medications cut the risk of a bad outcome in half. I reiterate: If doctors, including any of my Yale colleagues, tell you that scientific data show that hydroxychloroquine does not work in outpatients, they are revealing that they can’t tell the difference between low-risk patients who are not generally treated and high-risk patients who need to be treated as quickly as possible. Doctors who do not understand this difference should not be treating COVID-19 patients. What about medication safety? On July 1, the FDA posted a “black-letter warning” cautioning against using hydroxychloroquine “outside of the hospital setting,” meaning in outpatients. But on its website just below this warning, the FDA stated that the warning was based on data from hospitalized patients. To generalize and compare severely ill patients with COVID-induced pneumonia and possibly heart problems to outpatients is entirely improper. In fact, the FDA has no information about adverse events in early outpatient use of hydroxychloroquine. The only available systematic information about adverse events among outpatients is discussed in my article in the American Journal of Epidemiology, where I show that hydroxychloroquine has been extremely safe in more than a million users. It is a serious and unconscionable mistake that the FDA has used inpatient data to block emergency use petitions for outpatient use. Further, already back in March, the FDA approved the emergency use of hydroxychloroquine for hospitalized patients, for whom it is demonstrably less effective than for outpatients. If hydroxychloroquine satisfied the FDA criteria for emergency inpatient use in March, it should more than satisfy those criteria now for outpatient use, where the evidence is much stronger.>> Do we see a pattern here? Why is that pattern there in the face of pandemic? KFkairosfocus
August 14, 2020
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In the United States, anyone under the age of 65 with no preexisting conditions has a 0.02 percent chance of dying if they contract COVID-19. The medium age of death is 80 years old. Flattening the curve was not about ending COVID, but to keep the hospitals from being overrun in a single wave. The 2nd wave is nothing more than a continuation of the curve. States with the strictest dictates in place have the highest number of deaths.BobRyan
August 13, 2020
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RHolt, I commented in context of the suggested mechanism of altering ACE2 shape enough to frustrate spike protein lock. This suggests the very near surface zone. So too, local would be the immediate environment of the cell, and that in tissue. That would be a surface effect. If there is reason to disbelieve it, other proposed attack modes would remain. KF PS: I see the more classic reference, which has a point even with H2O. However, the sense of an annual little ritual and the striking impact on those newly minted students is a part of the uni experience that became legendary.kairosfocus
August 13, 2020
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