Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

COVID-19 and the need for skeptics in science

Categories
Academic Freedom
Intelligent Design
Philosophy
Science
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Now more than ever:

Since World War II, America has suffered two respiratory pandemics comparable to COVID-19: the 1958 “Asian flu,” then the 1969 “Hong Kong flu.” In neither case did we shut down the economy—people were simply more careful. Not all that careful, of course—Jimi Hendrix was playing at Woodstock in the middle of the 1969 pandemic, and social distancing wasn’t really a thing in the “Summer of Love.”

And yet COVID-19 was very different thanks to a single “buggy mess” of a computer prediction from one Neil Ferguson, a British epidemiologist given to hysterical overestimates of deaths, from mad cow to bird flu to H1N1.

For COVID-19, Ferguson predicted 3 million deaths in America unless we basically shut down the economy. Panicked policymakers took his prediction as gospel, dressed as it was in the cloak of science.

Now, long after governments plunged half the world into a Great Depression, those panicked revisions are being quietly revised down by an order of magnitude, now suggesting a final tally comparable to 1958 and 1969.

COVID-19 would have been a deadly pandemic with or without Ferguson’s fantasies, but had we known the true scale and parameters of the threat we might have chosen better tailored means to both safeguard the elderly and at-risk, while sustaining the wider economy. After all, economists have long known that mass unemployment and widespread bankruptcies carry enormous health consequences that are very real to the victims suffering drained life savings, ruined businesses, broken families, widespread mental and physical health deterioration, even suicide. Decisions involve tradeoffs.

COVID-19 has illustrated the importance of free and robust inquiry…

Indeed, every major scientific advance challenged the “settled science” of its day, and was often denounced as pernicious and false, even dangerous. The modern blood transfusion, for example, was developed in the late 1600s, then banned for nearly a century by a hostile medical establishment, “canceling” tens of millions of lives at the altar of groupthink and hostility to skeptics.

Peter St. Onge, “The COVID-19 Panic Shows Us Why Science Needs Skeptics” at Mises Wire

The thing is, it used to just be sympathizers of some unpopular viewpoint like ID getting deplatformed. Now, COVID-19 has raised the stakes, with so many official sources demanding obedience to conflicting and wrong ideas. And our neighbors can’t afford to ignore just how destructive the establishment line, unfettered and unhinged, can be.

It’s a good time to talk to them about the problems with Establishment Science today. Too much arrogance and politicking; not enough humility or integrity.

Comments
PPS: A pro aquarist, Jay Hemdal: https://reefs.com/magazine/aquarium-fish-chloroquine-a-new-drug-for-treating-fish-diseases/ >>In early the 1970’s, when I was just 13 or so, Cryptocaryon irritans (“marine ich”) and Amyloodinium ocellatum (“marine velvet”) were a bit less of a problem for my fish than they are now when I quarantine new fish as an aquarium curator. The reason was a product called Marex from the Aquatronics Corporation (they have long ceased operations). Marex was sort of a wonder drug for us back then – simply adding a single $1.99 dose protected the fish in a 50 gallon aquarium from many diseases plus it killed the unsightly algae [--> not just dinoflagellates] that grew all over the tank decorations back in those days! When the company went out of business I moved on to using other products. For the past 25 years, I’ve been using ionic copper measured with a spectrophotometer twice a day to control marine ich and other protozoan diseases. Copper is slow to affect a cure, and the difference between a therapeutic dose and a dose harmful to some fish species is slight. Still, it seemed to be the best method for quarantining or treating active diseases in fish. Thinking back to when I was a youngster, I did some research and discovered that the active ingredient in Marex was chloroquine, and I was familiar with that drug as it was being used by other public aquariums. Acquiring some myself five years ago, I’ve begun incorporating it into my arsenal of aquarium fish disease treatments. A few home aquarists have begun re-exploring its uses as well, often calling it by the shorthand name of “CP” which stands for chloroquine phosphate . . . . Chloroquine is typically dosed at a rate of 10 to 20 milligrams per liter (mg/l), with 15 mg/l being considered a “standard dose” (Hemdal 2006). Note: in most instances, solutions measured in “milligrams per liter” are equivalent to “parts per million” or ppm. Advertisement The 10 mg/l dose should be used as a quarantine preventative (not for active diseases), or for treating delicate species (although little is known about the sensitivity of different fish species to this medication). A dose of 15 mg/l is considered the normal dose for treating most protozoan infections, while the 20 mg/l dose would be reserved for attempting to eradicate difficult-to-treat Uronema marinum infections.>>kairosfocus
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
10:53 AM
10
10
53
AM
PDT
RHolt, I mean like protozoa, dinoflagellates, algae. Truly deep taxonomic branching. Thus, there will be attack modes -- not necessarily recognised -- that hit truly core processes. Add that to known effects with Zn for animalia and we see the cross kingdom character in sharp relief. KF PS: A suggested mechanism, pH alteration in organelles . . . which should sound familiar:
Quinine drugs [--> this speaks to the family of drugs] work by causing a pH elevation in intracellular organelles of parasites [--> weak base], this is thought to disrupt the intracellular transport of membrane components and macromolecules, and phospholipase activity leading to cellular failure of these parasites.
My guess is, in useful ranges, complex life forms can take more damage than something unicellular. We already know pH alteration will undermine attachment of attacking corona virus particles.kairosfocus
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
10:29 AM
10
10
29
AM
PDT
Ivermectin is getting around. https://bit.ly/3kAzrA0 Interview in Australia.
Ivermectin treatment is a ‘real killer of coronavirus’: Professor Gastroenterologist Professor Thomas Borody says Ivermectin used in conjunction with two other drugs is making it look like “corona is very simple to kill”. The drug is Federal Drug Agency and World Health Organisation approved; it is widely used for parasitic infections and is being cited and prescribed as treatment against the deadly coronavirus. “It has very few side effects, and is a real killer of coronavirus,” Professor Borody told Sky News host Chris Kenny.
Now if Trump gets. on board, it will kill it with mainstream media and medical community (not doctors and practitioners but bureaucrats) who then will have to denounce it. Can't save lives and give credit to Trump. It is not our job. Our job is to make sure Big Pharma makes billions who then send us on trips or advertise in our media.jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
10:10 AM
10
10
10
AM
PDT
From The Netherlands and Belgium, one of the hardest hit places in the world. They prevented doctors from using HCQ, https://bit.ly/31G9ZR0
A new initiative called “Zelfzorg covid19” (selfcare covid19), originating from the Netherlands, but with some Belgian (Dutch speaking) support, was launched online on May 8 and updated on July 23. It is now becoming internationally known. Zelfzorg covid19 was initiated by Dr Rob Elens, a general practitioner in Meijel, with lots of experience in tropical diseases, including malaria, who was the first to use an hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin & zinc therapy, similar to the Zelenko protocol. There was immense push back by the authorities, who threatened to withdraw his licence and right to practice medicine. He had accordingly to stop using hydroxychloroquine when treating patients. He developed the initiative along with an entrepreneur, Evert de Block, who is especially concerned about the lockdown and its economic and social implications. On the website, it’s mentioned that in practice, the effects of supplements “appear to be sufficiently great to prevent or extinguish (mild) Covid19.” Instead of asking people with covid-19 symptoms to stay home, just having fluids and paracetamol, these doctors recommend an early treatment protocol, that includes supplements such as quercetin and zinc. Bromhexine, a derivative of the Adhatoda vasica plant, used in some countries for the treatment of various respiratory diseases, is also included. The inclusion of bromhexine is based on the results of an Iranian randomized (!) clinical trial, which concludes on “the efficacy of early oral administration of bromhexine hydrochloride in the reduction of mortality of patients with COVID-19 disease.”
Doctors all over the world are being duped into thinking HCQ and zinc can be effective for early treatment. Don't they listen to Fauci and CNN?jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
09:32 AM
9
09
32
AM
PDT
Jerry
Watch the video.
As a personal preference I pefer to read the primary literature so I can see how the data was collected and analyzed,, experimental design, and concentrations of drugs/chemicals used in the research. For example there is some concern based on in vitro data on ivermectin and its known pharmacokinetics that obtaining in vivo concentrations observed iin the in vitro results can be obtained safely. That is why I was hoping for a citation in the primary literature so here's keeping my fingers crossed that the video contains the desired citations.RHolt
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
08:10 AM
8
08
10
AM
PDT
Do you happen to know what data the speculation is based on?
Watch the video.jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
07:58 AM
7
07
58
AM
PDT
Jerry
There is speculation that it operates by shielding entry of virus into cell
Do you happen to know what data the speculation is based on?RHolt
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
07:33 AM
7
07
33
AM
PDT
To indicate the absurdity of where we are publicly.
Phil Kerpen Let's think about this. To hit an arbitrary benchmark, we need people who aren't sick to come get tested just so we can find some more negatives. This is where we are now. Reacting to Getting tested is part of how we'll meet our goal of reducing #Houston's #COVID19 positivity rate to 5% or lower.
And then there are those arguing against HCQ for political reasons. They would rather see hundreds of thousands die than have an unpopular political position have validity. See Scott Adams video above. #406jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
I believe the mechanism of action for ivermection is inhibition of importin, a protein, which is involved in the movement of viral proteins into and out of the nucleus.
Watch MedCram 96. There is speculation that it operates by shielding entry of virus into cell. Start about 7 1/2 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk7KNBak-i0jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
jerry
I believe the expected mechanism for Ivermectin is prevention of virus entering cell.
Ivermectin: potential candidate for the treatment of Covid 19 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7321032/ Jerry, I believe the mechanism of action for ivermection is inhibition of importin, a protein, which is involved in the movement of viral proteins into and out of the nucleus. One class of drugs which shows some preliminary promise are peptides, e.g., aviptadil. Here is some info on their elopement: https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/comment/synthetic-peptides-covid-19-candidates/ http://news.mit.edu/2020/peptide-binds-covid-19-proteins-0622RHolt
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
06:47 AM
6
06
47
AM
PDT
American tragedy: Number of people dying alone in hospitals skyrockets due to COVID-19 It’s a horrifying thought, not being able to see your loved one before they pass away. The sad truth of 2020 is that’s what’s happening all over the United States. A recent study finds a dramatic shift in where Americans are spending their final moments. Patients with COVID-19 this year are 12 times more likely to die in a medical facility than patients dying of any cause in 2018. Researchers add that many of these patients are tragically dying alone. “Where you die is important and reflects end-of-life quality for the patient and the family,” says Northwestern University’s Dr. Sadiya Khan in a media release. Due to quarantine restrictions during the pandemic, many people have not been able to visit family members in U.S. hospitals. Khan explains this is not just damaging for the patient, but for their loved ones too.
https://www.studyfinds.org/people-dying-alone-covid-19/ One of the side effects of lockdown. I personally know a family now going through this as a man is terminally ill and will die shortly and none of family can see him. He does not have C19.jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
06:42 AM
6
06
42
AM
PDT
From Dr Todaro. More hope
There is growing evidence that T-cell immunity allows populations to reach herd immunity once only 10-20% are infected with SARS-CoV-2. This would explain why a highly transmissible virus in densely populated areas peaked at 10-20% infected regardless of lockdowns or masks.
jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
From Dr Zelenko
I use Ivermectin with patients in stage 1 covid. Excellent results, people get better. The key is early treatment. I tend to use ivermectin, steriods, blood thinners as add on to the Zelenko protocol on a case by case basis. Every patient needs an unique approach Remdesivir had RCT that showed some improvement for hospitalized patients and thats great and it should be used for patients in the hospital. But, isn’t it better to keep people out of the hospital?
The protocol evolves. I believe the expected mechanism for Ivermectin is prevention of virus entering cell. Hope: saving lives. As opposed to despair and let them die with no treatment for virus other than standard care.jerry
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
06:18 AM
6
06
18
AM
PDT
KF
The crud being simpler life forms across kingdoms of life.
To be more precise the aquarium parasites are protozoans and like the malarial parasite the mechanism of action is the same. Disruption of lysosomal processes via pH decreases and the formation of reactive oxygen species. I don't see an effect on other cellular biochemical processes. KF
This points to broad spectrum effects involving various types of viruses.
The cited list includes HIV where in vivo treatment with HCQ increases viral replication underscoring why in vitro research results might be suggestive they are by no means automatically transferable to intact organisms.RHolt
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PDT
PS: Further admissions by Wikipedia:
Zinc ionophores Zinc ionophores transport extracelluar Zn2+ ions across a cell membrane, and have been studied for their anti-viral and anti-cancer activities.[9][10] Quinoline derivatives: Chloroquine (4-Aminoquinoline)[11]
[--> HCQ is a slight mod of CQ, less toxic; notice its conspicuous absence in this list!]
Clioquinol (8-Hydroxyquinoline)[10] Diiodohydroxyquinoline (Quinoline)[12] PBT2 (8-Hydroxyquinoline analog)[13] Terpenoids and flavonols: Quercetin[14] [--> ET's favourite] Other compounds: Epigallocatechin gallate[14] Pyrithione (ZnHPT)[15][10][16] Pyrrolidine dithiocarbamate (PDTC)[17] Zincophorin[10] Zinc ionophores have been shown to inhibit replication of various viruses in vitro: Coxsackievirus[15][17] Equine viral arteritis[18] Hepatitis C virus[19] Herpes simplex virus[20] [--> DNA type] Human coronavirus 229E[21] [--> so, corona viruses are on de list] Human Immunodeficiency Virus[22][23] Mengovirus[15][17] MERS coronavirus[21] [--> another related CV] Rhinovirus[15] SARS coronavirus[18][21]
[--> a close relative, notice how far away from the other CV this is in the conveniently alphabetical list]
Zika virus[24][25]
This points to broad spectrum effects involving various types of viruses. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
04:16 AM
4
04
16
AM
PDT
F/N: I thought W/pedia testifying against known ideological bent on ionophores might help us focus thoughts:
An ionophore is a chemical species that reversibly binds ions.[1] Many ionophores are lipid-soluble entities that transport ions across a cell membrane. "Ionophore" means "ion carrier" as these compounds catalyze ion transport across hydrophobic membranes such as liquid polymeric membranes (carrier-based ion selective electrodes) or lipid bilayers found in the living cells or synthetic vesicles (liposomes).[1] Some ionophores are synthesized by microorganisms to import ions into their cells. Synthetic ion carriers have also been prepared. Ionophores selective for cations and anions have found many applications in analysis.[2] The two broad classifications of ionophores synthesized by microorganisms are: Carrier ionophores that bind to a particular ion and shield its charge from the surrounding environment. This makes it easier for the ion to pass through the hydrophobic interior of the lipid membrane.[3] An example of a carrier ionophore is valinomycin, a molecule that transports a single potassium cation. Carrier ionophores may be proteins or other molecules. Channel formers that introduce a hydrophilic pore into the membrane, allowing ions to pass through without coming into contact with the membrane's hydrophobic interior.[4] An example of a channel former is gramicidin A. Channel forming ionophores are usually large proteins.
HCQ is a weak base, binding to Zn2+ should not be unexpected. As a fairly complicated organic molecule, ability to get into a bilipid layer should also be unsurprising. Such is vaguely similar to soap/detergent action, just as a point of comparison with molecules that bridge the two worlds of ionic and organic/covalent interaction. A similar issue is why oils and water don't tend to mix but water and certain notorious alcohols do. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
03:28 AM
3
03
28
AM
PDT
BO'H: viruses are non living entities that require cells to hijack to replicate; therefore things that interact with cells can be relevant to viruses. The specific point was that we see a commonplace fact that points to interference with life forms across kingdoms, implying attacks on core, cross-kingdom cell processes; which are biochemical.(In case you missed the allusion, I am pointing to the tree of life and to in-common molecular processes; you would tend to think in terms of deep evolutionary roots near to LUCA.) This was explicitly noted above. One of the relevant processes is interference with the cell mechanisms viruses take over. That may include ion transport of Zn into cells and it may include other effects. The killing off of crud while notoriously vulnerable complex life forms (tropical fish . . . ) thrive is a sign that there is a window of effectiveness within which toxicity does not burn down the village to save it. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
03:23 AM
3
03
23
AM
PDT
kf -
That suggests that HCQ has effects on core cross-kingdom biochemically based cellular processes that point to broad spectrum anti-viral action.
The crud in fish tanks isn't viral, though.Bob O'H
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
01:52 AM
1
01
52
AM
PDT
RHolt:
I see that there has been a great deal of emphasis on in vitro data so much so that I feel it has led some astray from being able to evaluate the evidence for HCQ efficacy.
More accurately, there has been emphasis on CUMULATIVE EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, without selective hyperskeptical lock-outs via gold standard fallacies. Further to such, issues of decision theory are highly relevant, but often neglected.
For example many of the presented links are for virus research that is not COVID-19.
Which appeared less than a year ago and is part of a family, corona viruses, also RNA viruses. The issue is that while say antibodies, vaccines etc are often highly specific (through there is argument about bleed over protection from common cold immunity etc), there are also broad spectrum effects that are relevant to antiviral action. Things like being promoters of Zn, Cu etc count. Similarly, a seemingly irrelevant or overlooked fact, that HCQ has been successfully marketed as fish tank cleaner for ~ 40 years, has significant implications: the fish thrive, the crud dies. Fish, being vertebrates vulnerable to water toxicity. The crud being simpler life forms across kingdoms of life. That suggests that HCQ has effects on core cross-kingdom biochemically based cellular processes that point to broad spectrum anti-viral action. In short, there is a piece of the puzzle here. That tends to support the inference of plausible mechanisms such as Zn promotion.
When we look at the COVID-19 specific iin vitro data we see a different story. For example a recent publication presented data that HCQ does not prevent COVID-19 replication in lung tissue culture.
The problem here is of course that other studies by competent investigators do point to such effects. Where, divergent results are not unheard of in science. In addition, there are ever so many cases of rapid -- recognisable relief in 24 - 48 hours in many cases -- relief under treatment by the cocktail. The relevance, is not that this is the sole effective treatment (I notice a developing confidence in Ivermectin) but that in the window of greatest danger something seems to have gone seriously wrong with the system, leading to suppression of what still looks like a reasonable, cost effective treatment. Arguably, that made a damaging difference to management of not only patients but the pandemic. It has also seriously undermined credibility of health authorities and of appeals to the science. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
01:26 AM
1
01
26
AM
PDT
RH7, I have impaired lung capacity, being a lifelong asthmatic, etc. I repeatedly, reliably experience the difference between free breathing and the debilitating experience of using masks for extended periods. Others with better health repeatedly tell me that they find wearing such masks a challenge for doing extended work or work requiring significant exertion. It is obvious that people routinely slide masks down from their noses or even under their chins, clear marks of discomfort. While I accept that certain types of mask make a difference (and I keep pointing to van der Waals and London forces to explain counter-intuitive aspects of filtering effect), I have to also reckon with those other factors. We have a real challenge and it cannot be written out of reality through rhetoric of denial or dismissal. KFkairosfocus
August 11, 2020
August
08
Aug
11
11
2020
01:02 AM
1
01
02
AM
PDT
Jerry @ 473 -
the evidence that HCQ doesn’t help is of much higher quality.
I have seen none. So how can any be of high quality. If you disagree with me, point to one of these high quality examples of evidence. Please don’t say we already have done this.
*sigh* OK, to be fair there are no studies that match your criteria @ 431. The nearest you have is Zelenko but even he contaminates his study with (according to you) irrelevant patients.Bob O'H
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
11:25 PM
11
11
25
PM
PDT
The science says that HCQ is an ionophore. The science says that zinc does prevent corona viruses from replicating. MedCram update #34 goes over it. That said, I prefer the medically recommended prophylaxis. It has quercetin as the ionophore of choice. It also recommends vitamins C and D, along with zinc. Liposomal C is the best. And even the type of zinc matters.ET
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
09:19 PM
9
09
19
PM
PDT
It is clear from the data and from experience that hydroxychloroquine is not a miracle medication for COVID. If it has any benefit, it will be of the trivial variety. What makes people believe that a trivial benefit is a miracle medication is propaganda. This medical propaganda has become an integral part of American culture. It should be kept in mind that many fancy schemes when tested with good clinical studies turn out not to be true. Also, it should be kept in mind that the history of medicine is filled with examples of doctors coming up with schemes that they claimed were true but were false. Many times those schemes hurt patients. Bloodletting in one such example. Doctors swore up and down that to cut a person and let the blood drain into a bucket was therapeutic. This approach has also been seen in the HCQ debate. The zinc/hydroxychloroquine interaction is one such example. People are told that hydroxychloroquine is a zinc ionophore and that zinc inhibits COVID, and therefore it works. However, it would require a good clinical study to prove that hypothesis true. To date, there is no such study. https://www.medpagetoday.com/publichealthpolicy/generalprofessionalissues/87991rhampton7
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
09:01 PM
9
09
01
PM
PDT
The internet is your friend.ET
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
08:04 PM
8
08
04
PM
PDT
ET
Mechanisms of action of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine: implications for rheumatology
Thanks, ET. That was an interesting review that pointed out some key pharmacokinetic properties of CQ and HCQ. The large volume of distribution is a result of the anti-malarial being tightly bound to plasma proteins (up to 50% of dose) and the long half-life in the body. Obviously, given that steady state levels are not achieved until 5-7 half-lives of regular dosing the treatment of COVID with these drugs is dependent on fairly acute effects. Although, the article ET cited does state:
Both hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have a large volume distribution and a long half-life, consistent with their slow onset of action and prolonged effects after drug discontinuation.
Which suggests that the effects on lysosomes may have a slow onset of action given the slow onset of action in the treatment of RA. Something to consider. One thing I did not notice in the article was any relationship between the lysosomes and ACE receptor interaction.RHolt
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
08:02 PM
8
08
02
PM
PDT
Mechanisms of action of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine: implications for rheumatologyET
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
07:35 PM
7
07
35
PM
PDT
Captain Kirk: "Bones, How...long...will COVID-19 last?" Dr. McCoy: "Damn it Jim! I'm a doctor, not a politician!" :cool:ET
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
07:28 PM
7
07
28
PM
PDT
ET
And yet that is what the science says. HCQ increases the cell’s lysosomal pH. They found that out when they discovered that HCQ helps with rheumatoid arthritis.
Do you have a citation available for those quatations you posted? hopefully, from the primary literature. In vitro research results can often give clues to mechanisms of action but one of the first things taught in cell culture, i.e., in vitro, research methodology is that cells in a dish on a bench top are not the same as an intact organism. Following that there is, typically, a great emphasis that in vitro results need to be considered very carefully and not to over-extrapolate these cell culture results to what actually happens with administration of the drug to a living organism. Here is an example that emphasizes the need for such cautionary interpretations. There were several invitro studies with HIV and HCQ treatment. One study (linked below) demonstrated a robust inhibition of HIV viral replication. Inhibition of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 Replication by Hydroxychloroquine in T Cells and Monocytes https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/aid.1993.9.91 However, when the drug was tested in people to see if HCQ might be used to treat, or suppress, HIV the results demonstrated that in the HCQ treatment arm viral replication in these patients increased across the board. These data demonstrate that in vitro research results are useful in elucidating potential mechanisms of action but also underscores the concept that these in vitro results cannot be assumed to occur in a living patient/animal. Effects of Hydroxychloroquine on Immune Activation and Disease Progression Among HIV-Infected Patients Not Receiving Antiretroviral Therapy A Randomized Controlled Trial https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3821003/ Conclusion Among HIV-infected patients not taking antiretroviral therapy, the use of hydroxychloroquine compared with placebo did not reduce CD8 cell activation but did result in a greater decline in CD4 cell count and increased viral replication.RHolt
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
07:28 PM
7
07
28
PM
PDT
Zn(2+) inhibits coronavirus and arterivirus RNA polymerase activity in vitro and zinc ionophores block the replication of these viruses in cell cultureET
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
07:19 PM
7
07
19
PM
PDT
RHolt:
Additionally, I’ve read some comments that suggest it is pH changes, via HCQ administration, that change the shape of the ACE receptor and prevents viral infection. On several fronts this is mistaken.
And yet that is what the science says. HCQ increases the cell's lysosomal pH. They found that out when they discovered that HCQ helps with rheumatoid arthritis.
The mechanism of chloroquine action on RA has long been well known. It increases a cell’s lysosomal pH. (Lysosomes are membrane bound cellular organelles [think tiny balloons inside the cell floating at a lower pH in the higher pH cytosol] containing about 50 enzymes, discovered and named in 1955.) This in turn changes their ‘leaked’ enzyme balance into the cytosol, which then inhibits the cell’s RA tissue antigen signaling, which in turn reduces the immune system’s attack on the RA tissue, slowing (but usually not stopping) progression of RA tissue damage. The reason the Chinese and then the French thought to use chloroquine against Wuhan coronavirus is this same mechanism of action, albeit with different sequelae. The viral S protein binds to the epithelial cell wall’s angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor. Raising lysosomal pH changes (via indirect enzymatic action) the ‘shape’ of ACE2 enough that the S protein cannot bind to it, thus preventing cell infection. Chloroquine changes the cell ‘lock’ so the viral ‘key’ doesn’t work. Does not undo damage from infected cells, nor prevent an infected person from shedding existing viable virus, but does stop the spread in an infected person’s body—a promising therapeutic for those testing positive.
ET
August 10, 2020
August
08
Aug
10
10
2020
07:12 PM
7
07
12
PM
PDT
1 5 6 7 8 9 23

Leave a Reply