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Dembski: Is truth just what your peers will let you get away with saying?

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He argues, sound, logical thinking is NOT the norm. Many people, anxious to remain in good standing with leaders and influencers, live quite happily with incoherence and inconsistencies:

We inhabit not merely a physical environment but also a cultural environment. Our cultural environment sets boundaries for what we may think, what we can say, and how we should live. Stray beyond these boundaries, and you’ll face a cultural backlash. Our cultural environment includes our ideas about what exists, what can be known, and what counts as evidence for our beliefs. It assigns value to our life and work. It describes what’s within and beyond the moral pale. Above all, it determines our plausibility structures — what we find reasonable or unreasonable, credible or incredible, thinkable or unthinkable.

Christian apologetics lives and moves within such a cultural environment. To be effective, Christian apologetics therefore needs to work effectively within its cultural environment. That’s not to say that it should bow to the cultural environment. Quite the contrary: in a fallen world like ours, cultural environments will always to varying degrees be corrupt, and it is the task of Christian apologists to speak truth to and transform for the better any cultural environment in which they find themselves.

News, “Is truth just what your peers will let you get away with saying?” at Mind Matters News

Takehome: Christian apologists should recognize that incoherence and inconsistencies only become a problem in most people’s thinking when they hinder their lives.


The entire analysis is here.

Here’s the first portion (Parts 1 and 2) published at Mind Matters News

What makes arguments for God convincing — or not? Is truth enough? A look at the unfulfilled promise of Christian apologetics: Christian apologetics has, in my view, mainly been in the business of playing defense when it needs to be playing offense.

Comments
ET, someone above imagines that Christian believers have a rosy picture of the world? Did it fail to register with such that the passion narrative is in part an indictment of judicial murder by corrupt, lawless oligarchy -- Jerusalem and Roman elites alike, with few exceptions who could only mildly protest -- hiding behind legal fictions? What have they been smoking? (And yes, that is one of the history points that anchors my regard for the more historically balanced approach to political spectra.) KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2021
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JVL- You have shown you really don't have anything to say.ET
December 6, 2021
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seversky:
No, it’s some believers who want to sweep under the rug anything that can’t be fitted in to the rosy religious picture they’ve created for themselves.
Right. Materialists and evolutionists are those believers. Thank you.ET
December 6, 2021
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JVL, I have given my suspicions on problems I have personally experienced. Besides, with language as you have used above, you invite banning for cause and it would not be somehow selective, it would be site wide. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2021
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Bornagain77: "Someone who believes in a worldview that holds that ALL his sentences are meaningless, believes that his sentences have something meaningful to say?" JVL, "Not what i believe and not really the point." So you do not believe Darwinian materialism/naturalism to be true? :)
The following is Dr. Craig’s refutation of atheist Professor Alex Rosenberg’s (Duke University) book “The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions” 2.) The argument from meaning 1. If naturalism is true, no sentence has any meaning. 2. Premise (1) has meaning. 3. Therefore naturalism is not true. – Is Metaphysical Naturalism Viable? – William Lane Craig – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS_CQnmoLQ
I know that 'you' do not really believe your sentences are completely meaningless, since it is simply insane to believe as such, but alas, your beloved theory of Darwinian materialism holds it to be true. And that is just the tip of the iceberg of the cognitive dissonance that is required for an atheist to maintain his naturalistic worldview. JVL goes on: "have you decided how to rectify the ‘fact’ that a vast majority of mutations are directed and most mutations are deleterious?" JVL, for some strange reason you also seem to think ID is the theory that has a problem with the 'facts' that the vast majority of mutations are now found to be directed and to be deleterious, (in an overall sense of losing information). It doesn't. ID is perfectly fine with both of those facts. It is your theory of Neo-Darwinian evolution that has a (severe) problem with both of those facts.
Genome Self-Editing - directed mutations - video (Johnnyb - November 2021) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YesEq8VKgvg This video explores,, the mechanics and specifics of many different types of directed mutations. How life changes itself: the Read-Write (RW) genome. - 2013 Excerpt: Research dating back to the 1930s has shown that genetic change is the result of cell-mediated processes, not simply accidents or damage to the DNA. This cell-active view of genome change applies to all scales of DNA sequence variation, from point mutations to large-scale genome rearrangements and whole genome duplications (WGDs). This conceptual change to active cell inscriptions controlling RW genome functions has profound implications for all areas of the life sciences. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23876611 When Darwin’s Foundations Are Crumbling, What Will the (Darwinian) Faithful Do? Excerpt: Here’s a summation of the evolutionary picture that has emerged, according to Behe (in his new book "Darwin Devolves": • The large majority of mutations are degradatory, meaning they’re mutations in which the gene is broken or blunted. Genetic information has been lost, not gained. • Sometimes the degradation helps an organism survive. • When the degradation confers a survival advantage, the mutation spreads throughout the population by natural selection. In genetics, a loss of information generally translates into a loss of function, so it might seem counterintuitive to suppose that a degradatory mutation would confer a survival advantage. Behe gives several examples, though, of instances where damaged genes have been shown to aid survival. In the case of the sickle-cell gene, for example, a single amino acid change causes hemoglobin to behave in a way that inhibits growth of the malaria microbe. It’s a loss-of-function mutation, but it confers a survival advantage in malaria-prone regions. The upshot of all this is that Darwin was right in believing that natural selection operating on random variations can cause organisms to become adapted to their environments, but he was wrong in believing that the process was constructive. Nowhere has the Darwinian mechanism been shown to build a complex system. It has only been shown to modify an already-existing system, usually in a loss-of-function manner. This is significant enough to upend the Darwinian narrative, but it gets worse. The same factors that contribute to adaptation work to prevent a species from evolving much further. Random mutation and natural selection quickly adjust species to their environmental niches, Behe writes, and then they maroon them there. He cites results from the long-running experiment conducted by Michigan State microbiologist Richard Lenski, whose E. coli lineage has surpassed 65,000 generations (equivalent to more than a million years for a large, complex species like humans), as sound evidence that random mutations wreak havoc in a species—and then that havoc gets frozen in place by natural selection. Behe sums up his main argument like this: “beneficial degradative mutations will rapidly, relentlessly, unavoidably, outcompete beneficial constructive mutations at every time and population scale.”1 The only Darwinian examples of evolution that have been observed have followed this pattern and resulted in evolutionary dead ends. Darwin devolves.,,,, https://salvomag.com/article/salvo49/darwinism-dissembled
bornagain77
December 6, 2021
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It's very, very clear: I can post on some threads but not on others. Who's controlling the criteria and why?JVL
December 6, 2021
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And, yes, I just tried posting to that other thread and it didn't work. Something is rotten in UD. Someone needs to own up.JVL
December 6, 2021
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Asauber: Overwrought. You are going over like a lead burnt pizza. Welcome to the sheeple flock. Got your MAGA hat on? Right, I'll stop being snarky. I would really like one of the actual site admins to explain why I get banned from some threads for a time, from some threads permanently but, at the same time, not from other threads. Why is that happening?JVL
December 6, 2021
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"Clearly you are a) much too naive and b) too far up the site admin’s backside to care about what’s fair and honourable." JVL, Overwrought. You are going over like a lead burnt pizza. Andrewasauber
December 6, 2021
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Bornagain77: Someone who believes in a worldview that holds that ALL his sentences are meaningless, believes that his sentences have something meaningful to say. Not what i believe and not really the point. By the way: have you decided how to rectify the 'fact' that a vast majority of mutations are directed and most mutations are deleterious?JVL
December 6, 2021
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JVL: "Some one here is terribly afraid of what I have to say." Well that is certainly seems very strange. Someone who believes in a worldview that holds that ALL his sentences are meaningless, believes that his sentences have something meaningful to say?
The following is Dr. Craig’s refutation of atheist Professor Alex Rosenberg’s (Duke University) book “The Atheist’s Guide to Reality: Enjoying Life without Illusions” 2.) The argument from meaning 1. If naturalism is true, no sentence has any meaning. 2. Premise (1) has meaning. 3. Therefore naturalism is not true. - Is Metaphysical Naturalism Viable? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS_CQnmoLQ
JVL also claims "to care about what’s fair and honourable." Again, this seems very strange. Someone who believes in a worldview of 'pitiless indifference' believes that things should be fair and honourable?
"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” - Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life
bornagain77
December 6, 2021
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Kairosfocus: I'd like to believe you but please explain why I'd be occasionally shut out from some threads and then let back in, not shut out but then completely shut out of some threads and then not banned from some threads at all. Something is wrong. And it's not just updates. That doesn't make sense. You guys need to figure out your policies and your website configuration. Why not start with stating your posting policy and then apologising when it goes wrong?JVL
December 6, 2021
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JVL, WordFence is part of the normal protective package given an age of worms, malware, hacking etc. I am fairly sure too that many including the undersigned have had problems from time to time. There is no good reason to make accusations of cowardice etc. I have actually seen myself as logged in in one thread, logged out in another and unable to log in. I think updates and their weird effects are part of the problem. The only thing worse than updates is no updates. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2021
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Asauber: Like right now. ? Clearly you are a) much too naive and b) too far up the site admin's backside to care about what's fair and honourable.JVL
December 6, 2021
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"Maybe you are just too annoying." Like right now. ;) Andrewasauber
December 6, 2021
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ET, Asuaber, Lt Com Data: You are all condoning preventing some people from having their say without even warning them or telling them why. If you're happy supporting an autocracy which, I'd like to point out, none of you seem to be a part of then good luck with that. What are you going to do when you fall foul of the ruling authority and you have no means of appeal 'cause you don't even know what you've done wrong? It's not my site or my rules but I think it's duplicitous to bitch and moan about other people not listening to your points of view when it's pretty clear that some people who have not violated any of this site's guidelines are banned without being even paid the courtesy of saying why. Again, whose afraid of some views? If you're not afraid then why prevent some people from posting comments?JVL
December 6, 2021
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JVL Some one here is terribly afraid of what I have to say.
:) You are a joke.Lieutenant Commander Data
December 6, 2021
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"Some one here is terribly afraid of what I have to say." LOL. OMG, such grandiose delusions. Get some help, JVL. Maybe you are just too annoying. Andrewasauber
December 6, 2021
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Wow. ID has been very capably defended. ID still offers the only scientific explanation for our existence. What no one can defend is universal common descent via blind and mindless processes. Someone here is a bluffing lunatic who couldn't form a coherent argument for his position nor against ID.ET
December 6, 2021
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After days and days of trying to reply on the appropriate thread (https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/bill-dembski-offers-some-thoughts-on-the-current-state-of-christian-apologetics/} but being consistently blocked by some WordPress plugin called WordFence I'm just going to give up. Some one here is terribly afraid of what I have to say. Some one here does not believe ID and the ID community is capable of defending itself. Someone here is a coward. You know who you are. And, guess, what? The proof I'm being banned from that thread is the fact I've just be able to post to a different thread.JVL
December 6, 2021
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what we mean by “truth
Read Briggs. However, as said above it is unlikely to have an effect on you. Nothing about you in particular just that he says few are swayed by truth arguments.jerry
December 6, 2021
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"the rosy religious picture" Sev, This is a deliberate mischaracterization. At least in the case of halfway serious Christianity, "religion" involves suffering, and turning your back to what the world has to offer. It's not exactly rosy. Andrewasauber
December 6, 2021
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Dembski: Is Truth Just What Your Peers Will Let You Get Away With Saying?
It's an interesting question for Dembski to pose since he was apparently penalized for saying things that were not theologically acceptable to an employer. But, to answer the question, while politically-correct speech can be true, political-correctness is not usually considered to be a measure of what is or isn't true. Of course, this inevitably raises the thorny problem of what we mean by "truth".Seversky
December 6, 2021
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No, it’s some believers who want to sweep under the rug anything that can’t be fitted in to the rosy religious picture they’ve created for themselves.
An example of a Local Truth Fallacy being used as a general truth. Read Briggs. There are always “some” but that does not illustrate anything other than there are always some. It’s also the Fallacy of Omission. Read Briggs.jerry
December 6, 2021
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so Brigs must be arguing that some of the things we believe are right?
He discusses that. The title is obviously a little hyperbole because there are some truths such as 4 is less than 5. But he points to all the ways people misrepresent and avoid the truth and how they are susceptible to misinformation and bad reasoning. He also emphasizes that logic and evidence is unlikely to convince most people. But maybe a few can be affected by truth arguments. Mark Twain?
It’s Easier to Fool People Than to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled
Whether Mark Twain or not, the quote is relevant. Mark Twain did say
“The glory which is built upon a lie soon becomes a most unpleasant incumbrance. … How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and how hard it is to undo that work again
jerry
December 6, 2021
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Asauber/7
“To materialists and evolutionists, truth is irrelevant and unnecessary.” ET, This is true, but materialists and evolutionists also need to try and hide the truth, simultaneously. This is how messed up they are. Andrew
No, it's some believers who want to sweep under the rug anything that can't be fitted in to the rosy religious picture they've created for themselves.Seversky
December 6, 2021
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Jerry/5
Everything You Believe Is Wrong by William M Briggs
If everything you believe is wrong that must include the belief that everything you believe is wrong, so Brigs must be arguing that some of the things we believe are right?Seversky
December 6, 2021
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"To materialists and evolutionists, truth is irrelevant and unnecessary." ET, This is true, but materialists and evolutionists also need to try and hide the truth, simultaneously. This is how messed up they are. Andrewasauber
December 6, 2021
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To materialists and evolutionists, truth is irrelevant and unnecessary.ET
December 6, 2021
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Have people since the beginning of time not been interested in truth? It has never been so obvious than today that this is “true.” Yes, we are obviously interested in some truths as we must live so that we reach tomorrow. Certainly some common things have to be accepted and be true to reach that goal. But how about next year, 10 years from now, our children’s future? What may not be necessary to live one’s entire life and not affect it. So the following obvious truth from the OP says it quite directly.
Many people, anxious to remain in good standing with leaders and influencers, live quite happily with incoherence and inconsistencies:
A book that discusses truth in detail is William Briggs’ new book,
Everything You Believe Is Wrong by William M Briggs
https://www.alibris.com/Everything-You-Believe-Is-Wrong-William-M-Briggs/book/51005501?matches=4jerry
December 6, 2021
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