Does Good come from God II – Harris vs Lane

_{DLH
April 8, 2011

Atheism, Creationism, Design inference, Ethics, Evolutionary psychology, Intelligent Design, Neuroscience, Philosophy, Psychology, Religion, Science

2}_{Categories
Atheism
Creationism
Design inference
Ethics
Evolutionary psychology
Intelligent Design
Neuroscience
Philosophy
Psychology
Religion
Science}

Part 9 of 9 – Harris vs Craig – Does Good Come From God
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Apologetics 315 has posted the audio link the Full Debate MP3 Audio here (120 min)
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I found the debate a fascinating test of technical debating skills vs red herrings and emotional appeals. (PS please post links to transcripts when available.)

This debate provides an interesting framework within which to examine the ID related question:
Does Information come from an Intelligent Agent?

Harris claimed that the axioms of science are accepted and obvious to everyone and provide the basis for proving there is no god. However, atheists commonly presuppose naturalistic materialism.
How can one scientifically examine if an intelligent agent exists or is causative, if one a priori excludes intelligent agents from possible causes?

I posit that in testing for an intelligent cause, one must presuppose:

1) Intelligent agents exist. (e.g. humans)
2) Intelligent agents can influence nature. (e.g. this post)
3) Some intelligent intervention can be detected. (e.g., forensics)
4) An intelligent agent may be a cause for an observed phenomena.

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April 11 See JonnyB’s follow on post:

Sam Harris Delivers Riveting Oration Championing Deism

Comments

cont. Bruce David, As well, though you will probably scoff at this little tidbit of evidence, please note Bill Wiese's comment, near the beginning of this video, of 'a tunnel' as he transitioned to the 'eternal dimension' Bill Wiese on Sid Roth - video (23 minutes in Hell) - Reality of 'Eternal Dimension' discussed in Description http://www.vimeo.com/21230371 Though just sort of mentioned in passing be Bill, 'a tunnel' conforms exactly to what we know will happen as the 'higher eternal dimension' of the speed of light is approached??? ,,, Please note how 3-D reality folds and collapses into a tunnel shape, in direction of travel, as the constant for the speed of light is approached, in this following video. Please pay particular attention to the full relativistic effect at the 3:22 minute mark; Traveling At The Speed Of Light – Optical Effects – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ Note how the full relativistic effect at the 3:22 mark matches the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’ effect noted in many Near Death Experiences, as well as conforms to the tunnel experience Bill Wiese mentioned in the video; The NDE and the Tunnel – Kevin Williams’ research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn’t walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn’t really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different – the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ ,,, Further note: this is, IMO, a better video testimony by Bill in which he gives Biblical references for what he saw, as well as 'reasons why hell exists,,, 23 Minutes In Hell - Full Length video testimony - High Quality - Bill Wiese http://www.vimeo.com/16641462bornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David; A eastern European,, much like you, could not believe that God, who is the source of all love, could condemn someone to hell. Then he saw some of the greatest atrocities in recent history, with the 'ethnic cleansing', rape, murder, torture etc.. of his people. Then he realized that righteous wrath and love are not incompatible, i.e. He saw that God would have to be 'righteously angry' and 'judgmental' precisely because of his love. Thus Bruce David,,, PROOF THAT THERE IS A HELL http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/mass_grave1.jpgbornagain77_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David, We meet again. I have several excellent books upon my shelf, which would refute your statements regarding the New Testament and the historical Jesus. Among them are: New Testament Documents: The Historical Reliability of the Gospels: Craig Bloomberg. http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Reliability-Gospels-Craig-Blomberg/dp/0830828079/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1302426989&sr=1-1 The Canon of Scripture: FF Bruce. http://www.amazon.com/Canon-Scripture-F-Bruce/dp/083081258X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302427144&sr=1-1 Historical Jesus: Jesus and the Victory of God: NT Wright. http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Victory-Christian-Origins-Question/dp/0800626826/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302427274&sr=1-1 Wright has 3 extensive volumes in a series covering the historical Jesus. This is one of the 3. The Real Jesus: Luke Timothy Johnson. http://www.amazon.com/Real-Jesus-Misguided-Historical-Traditional/dp/0060641665/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302427409&sr=1-1 I Believe in the Historical Jesus: J Howard Marshall. http://www.amazon.com/Believe-Historical-Jesus-Howard-Marshall/dp/1573830194/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302427468&sr=1-1 The Historical Figure of Jesus: EP Sanders. http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Figure-Jesus-P-Sanders/dp/0140144994/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302427520&sr=1-1 And the one I think is the most thorough: The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ: Gary R. Habermas. http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Jesus-Ancient-Evidence-Christ/dp/0899007325/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1302427594&sr=1-1 There are common themes throughout these books and others, which would suggest that: We can know a whole lot about the life of Christ and what he said and did. The fact of Christ's life is indisputed. The fact of the crucifixion is indisputed. There are several historical facts mentioned in the New Testament, which are verified by archeology. While we have evidence that the New Testament was written within the 1st Century AD - certainly before 100AD, it is reasonable to suggest that the New Testament was written earlier than we currently have physical evidence for. There is internal NT evidence, which shows that certain events which should have been known and mentioned by the authors were in fact unknown and unmentioned - if in fact the gospels and Acts were written later as suggested by a few scholars. It is these omissions (such as the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70), among other internal evidence, which force most scholars on all sides of the liberal/conservative spectrum to conclude that the gospels and acts were written much earlier than we currently have physical evidence for, such as actual NT manuscripts; the oldest dating to ca 125AD. Peter Carsten Thiede has an interesting hypothesis that a payrus fragment from Matthew's gospel called the "Jesus Fragment", dates to ca 40-50 AD. Most scholars put Matthew a little later - up to 65AD. But one thing is pretty clear, Matthew was not the first gospel, which if Thiede is correct, places Mark even earlier. Such is unprecedented in the whole spectrum of ancient documents. Only the life of Jesus can be so readily constructed from contemporary and near contemporary sources. You're simply wrong when you suggest that we can't know much about what Jesus did or said. I think you're reading (if any) is rather selective.CannuckianYankee_{April 10, 2011
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That should read, "I am confident that [you] are not curious as to why that is the case,".....StephenB_{April 10, 2011
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---Bruce David: "DLH. You said, “In keeping with the ID theme, I encourage you to examine all the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ.” ---"Jesus may have been resurrected. However, the “historical evidence” is entirely contained within the New Testament, which for reasons I laid out in #25, simply cannot be trusted as accurate unless one performs an act of faith that it is." Notice how blithely you shrug off all the evidence that DLH alludes to, a ton of which you know nothing about and all of which is based on reason, not faith. Have you read any of the works cited? If not, then you are in no position to comment on the matter. Will you ever? I seriously doubt it. Your lack of intellectual curiosity is astounding. I would be willing to gamble that you cannot produce even one of out of the hundred or more rational arguments on behalf of the resurrection--arguments that you happily discount without even being aware of their existence. With respect to the criticisms you present @25 most are either bogus, uninformed, or irrelevant. I am confident that are not curious as to why that is the case, so I will not bother to elaborate.StephenB_{April 10, 2011
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Bruce David,
Jesus may have been resurrected. However, the “historical evidence” is entirely contained within the New Testament, which for reasons I laid out in #25, simply cannot be trusted as accurate unless one performs an act of faith that it is.
It is an act of faith that you're not a brain in a vat, that your reasoning has any purchase on the world, that you're not stuck in a dream in a coma. Besides, the New Testament is a collection of books, by different authors, because it has been brought together as one bigger book is not a reason to regard it as unhistorical. All historical books you must take on faith.Clive Hayden_{April 10, 2011
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DLH. You said, "In keeping with the ID theme, I encourage you to examine all the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Jesus may have been resurrected. However, the "historical evidence" is entirely contained within the New Testament, which for reasons I laid out in #25, simply cannot be trusted as accurate unless one performs an act of faith that it is.Bruce David_{April 10, 2011
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Bornagain. You said, "Bruce David, It seems to me that you are on very shaky ground in your refusal to accept the consistency of the hellish accounts of NDE’s from pantheistic countries." The "hellish accounts of NDE’s" carry no weight with me because I am certain that there is no Hell, and I can prove it. I have included the proof below. But let's say for the sake of argument that we accept that Hell exists. How do I know how to keep myself out of it? Really! As I have pointed out already, the Bible itself is contradictory on the subject. Some gospels say that it is only necessary to love and be kind to each other. Paul says that it is only by accepting Christ as one's savior, that what we do has no bearing on whether we are made right with God. How do I decide, particularly given that none of the New Testament can be trusted to be accurate? Or maybe the Catholics are right, and I will go to Hell if I have any unconfessed sin on my soul regardless of what else I do? And what if Islam, Hinduism, or Buddhism, have the correct idea? How do I decide which, if any, of these conflicting views is correct? And as for prophesy, how do you reconcile the fact that Jesus himself in Mark and Matthew prophesied that the Kingdom of God, when the moon would turn red and the stars fall from the sky and evil would be vanquished and the Son of Man would come in riding on the clouds to rule the earth, that all this would happen while some of his disciples were still alive? Obviously, this did not happen, so where does that leave your vaunted Biblical prophesy? PROOF THAT THERE IS NO HELL Undefined terms 1. love 2. moral Definitions 1. immoral: the opposite of moral. 2. to love someone unconditionally: to love someone no matter what they do. 3. to judge an act or a person: to decide or conclude that the act or person is immoral. 4. to punish: to cause suffering and/or death to someone in retribution for their having committed an act that is perceived as immoral (ie., has been judged). 5. soul: the consciousness of a human being that survives the death of its physical body. 6. Hell: a place whose purpose is to punish souls who have been judged after they die. 7. Justice: rewarding moral behavior and punishing immoral behavior. Axioms 1. To judge an act committed by a person is to judge the person also. 2. Whenever one judges someone, they do not love them. 3. Everything God does has a purpose. 4. A human being is equivalent to the soul of that human being. 5. God loves all human beings (and thus all souls) unconditionally. Theorems 1. God will never judge an act committed by a human being/soul. Proof: Assume that God judges such an act. Then by Axiom 1, God also judges the person who committed it, and by Axiom 2, God does not love that person. Therefore the act that that person committed has resulted in God not loving them, and by Definition 2, God therefore does not love that person unconditionally. But this contradicts Axiom 5. 2. God will never punish a human being/soul. Proof: Assume that God punishes someone. By Definition 4, punishment is in retribution for what God perceives as an immoral act. Thus, by Definition 3, God has judged that act. But this contradicts Theorem 1. Corollary: Justice is not one of God’s attributes. Proof: By Definition 7, justice involves punishment. Since God will never punish a human being/soul, justice is not a characteristic of His actions. 3. God did not and will not create a Hell. Proof: Since the purpose of Hell is to punish souls (Definition 6), and since God will never punish a soul (Theorem 2), if God created a Hell, it would be for no purpose. But this contradicts Axiom 3. Corollary: If the Bible states that there is a Hell in the meaning of Definition 6, then the Bible is incorrect or has been misinterpreted. Notes: 1. There are two meanings for “to judge”. One is to assess guilt or innocence, as in a courtroom trial or the last judgment. The second is as I have defined it above in Definition 3. Throughout this short exposition I have used the word only in its second meaning. 2. I suspect that Axioms 1 and 2 will be the most controversial among anyone following this series of proofs. I am certain that they are both true, based on my own personal experience. Axiom 1: This is because our judgment of the morality of an act includes the intention of the person acting. For example, suppose someone is shopping and has an item he or she intends to buy in his or her hands. In order to browse a magazine they put the item in their pocket and after returning the magazine to the rack absentmindedly exit the store forgetting about the item in the pocket. We would not conclude that the action (taking the item without paying for it) was immoral, just forgetful. On the other hand, if someone performed the exact same action but left the store in full knowledge that the item was in his or her pocket, deliberately not paying for it, he or she would be judged as having done something immoral. Since the immorality of an act is dependent on the intention, one who commits an immoral act is ipso facto immoral. Axiom 2: This is because the essence of love is to unite, and the essence of judgment is to separate, and I know from introspection that when I am judging another, I am not loving them, and when I love them, I do not judge them. I may observe that what they are doing does not serve them or reflect who they truly are, but this is not the same as judging them (deciding that they are an immoral person).Bruce David_{April 9, 2011
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Bruce David re: "1. How do you know that this is true?" What is objective truth? On who basis do you recognize evidence? Can anything be known about historical events? In keeping with the ID theme, I encourage you to examine all the historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. For a through legal evaluation of the evidence, see: Simon Greenleaf (1846)(the Royal Professor of Law at Harvard University) An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice Reprinted 1995 Kregel Publications Frank Morrison Who moved the stone? 2006 Authentic media ISBN 978-1850786740 Online Josh McDowell Evidence that Demands a Verdict, 1999 Thomas Nelson ISBN 978-0785242192DLH_{April 9, 2011
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Bruce David, It seems to me that you are on very shaky ground in your refusal to accept the consistency of the hellish accounts of NDE's from pantheistic countries. Sure individual accounts are suspect as to integrity due to the 'human factor', but such consistency across such a broad sample base for pantheistic NDE's negates your objection. As to your objection that many different explanations are plausible, first I refer you to this video (again) and this book; The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences – Dr Jeffery Long – Melvin Morse M.D. – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Evidence of the Afterlife: The Science of Near-Death Experiences - book http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-Afterlife-Science-Near-Death-Experiences/dp/0061452556 second I referred you to the fact that reality itself testifies to what is reported in NDE's i.e. special relativity conforms to the 'eternality of time' reported in NDE's, as well 'the tunnel' reported in NDE's conforms to what we know will happen 'optically' as we approach the 'higher dimension' of the speed of light (pretty stunning empirical conformation!!!). As well I cited evidence that conclusively shows that we have a 'higher dimensional' component to our makeup that is not limited by time or space, which conform to the 'soul postulation' of Theism, and is certainly not a 'original' pantheistic postulation, though pantheist shamelessly borrow it or discard it whenever pressed one way or the other. As well I outlined, with experimental support, how reality is actually constructed, A highest transcendent realm, A eternal realm, and A temporal realm.,,, As well I presented very plausible evidence that links the Shroud of Turin (i.e. resurrection of Christ) with the 'unification' of General Relativity and quantum mechanics, which happens to be the greatest unsolved mystery in mathematics and physics today. Yet you completely ignored this stunning piece of evidence so as to attack the Bible. Though I could link several videos defending against chosen point of attack, I will just point to one thing to defend the Bible, the fulfilled prophecy of Israel becoming a nation in 1948; The Precisely Fulfilled Prophecy Of Israel Becoming A Nation In 1948 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041241 Bible Prophecy Fulfilled - Israel 1948 - article Excerpt: As such, we can know for certain that the Bible, in one of the most remarkable prophecies in history, accurately foresaw the year of Israel's restoration as an independent nation some two thousand five hundred years before the event occurred. http://ezinearticles.com/?Bible-Prophecy-Fulfilled---Israel-1948&id=449317 I don't know Bruce, it is really not my responsibility to try to make you be fair with the evidence, but it seems fairly clear to me that you would rather look for anything small thing at all to object to, whilst ignoring the truly wondrous evidence presented to you. i.e. exactly why should your nit-picking on supposed 'inconsistencies' in the Bible outweigh stunning prophetic fulfillment that took World War II to bring to fulfillment???bornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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Bornagain: I asked you for an unimpeachable source of truth. You gave me records of NDEs. This could count as evidence, after a fashion, but hardly as an unimpeachable source. The primary reason is that the differences among various peoples’ experience could have many different explanations, only one of which is that they reflect the actual reality that exists beyond the grave. For example, a person’s NDE could reflect what they believe is actually going to happen to them after death, which will be influenced but not determined by the culture in which they live. In our culture the vast majority of people do not believe that they are going to go to Hell, either because they are evangelical or Catholic Christians and believe that they have been “saved” by their belief in Jesus or having gone to confession, or like atheists or others like me, they don’t believe that a loving God would create a Hell at all. Another explanation is right in the quotes in your comment, at the end where you list the four types NDE, in which a reason is given for each type, based on what the individual having the NDE needs to experience at that point in his or her life. Regarding what is “good”, you said, “Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself.,,,” To me, this is very close to my own idea of what constitutes appropriate action in any given circumstance, which is the answer to the question, “What would Love do now?” (“Appropriate” being defined in this case as that which most closely reflects Who We Really Are.) However, this doesn’t seem to correspond to what Christians generally regard as moral action. For example, casual sex would not be proscribed as long as it is done lovingly, nor homosexual activity either. Furthermore, it gives us very little if any guidance regarding actions that fall under the heading of integrity: one can easily imagine many circumstances when lying could be the loving thing to do, or even stealing. It doesn’t tell us at what point a developing human fetus becomes a human being either. Nor does it give us any clue regarding what God wants from us regarding our relationship to Him other than to love Him. How are we to worship Him, or indeed are we to worship Him at all? In general, the admonition to love God and each other doesn’t yield any hard and fast moral rules for behavior, since every circumstance is unique, and an action that is unloving in one circumstance may be just the opposite in another. Regarding using Jesus as one’s source of truth, I have been doing some research since we last conversed, and I have come to the conclusion that we simply cannot know what Jesus said or did with any certainty. There is no historical record of Jesus life dating from the first century after his death other than the New Testament. In that document, the earliest writings are Paul’s letters, but Paul never knew Jesus and in any case gives us very little information regarding his life. The earliest gospel, Mark, was written anonymously (all the gospels were written anonymously and later attributed to purported authors). It collects stories of his life. Where did those stories come from? They were transmitted orally by Christians speaking to others whom they wished to convert, who in turn told them to others, etc. This went on for some 3 to 4 decades after Jesus’ death before the author of Mark wrote them down in Greek. At some point they had to have been translated from the original Aramaic. The last gospel, John, was written 6 to 7 decades after Jesus’ death. We can have no way of knowing to what extent the stories were changed during that period of oral transmission. Furthermore, the gospels contradict each other in many ways. For example, Matthew has Mary and Joseph living in Bethlehem, where Jesus is born and then fleeing to Egypt to escape Herod’s orders to kill all the babies under the age of 2. Finally, after Herod dies, they return, but go to Nazareth instead of Bethlehem because they are worried about what Herod’s son, the new king, might do. Luke’s version has them traveling to Bethlehem for the census (of which there is no historical record, by the way), where Jesus is born in a stable. Thirty three days later, they return to Nazareth. Another example: According to Mark, Jesus said nothing during his trip to be crucified, and says nothing while on the cross until the very end, when he utters that cry, full of pathos, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” According to Luke, however, he speaks to the women crying for him on the way, and he speaks to the convicts being crucified next to him. He also says, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do,” and at the end says, “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.” Also, John contains a very different account of Jesus’ life than do Mark, Matthew, and Luke. These are but three of many, many examples of contradictions between and among the gospels and the other books of the New Testament. In addition, we do not have the originals of the books that make up the New Testament. We have copies of copies of copies, the very earliest from the second century after his death. Furthermore, the copies are full of errors, some inadvertent, some intentional where the text was changed deliberately to conform more closely to what the scribe thought was the true teaching. Scholars have spent a great deal of effort to reconstruct what the earliest versions actually said, but there are situations where they simply can’t be sure what was in the original. All of this supports an inescapable conclusion that we really don’t know and can never know the details of Jesus’ life and teachings. One can believe that the New Testament as it has come down to us (after painstaking scholarship) is the true word of God, but that must be a matter of faith. (And even then, how does one reconcile the contradictions?) There is no logical reason to believe that it is so.Bruce David_{April 9, 2011
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this link should work; http://www.premier.org.uk/unbelievable just click to listenbornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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This week, Unbelievable Christian Radio has the author of the book Craig plugged in the debate: Is God a Moral Monster? Paul Copan & Norman Bacrac http://www.premierradio.org.uk/listen/ondemand.aspx?mediaid={BD4A5C6A-9C16-417C-8C3D-5D833B5F654C}bornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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Here is another well written summary: How William Lane Craig thrashed Sam Harris like a naughty puppy Excerpt: In the end, my sense was that Craig was quietly exasperated at Harris for failing to deliver; and Harris was exasperated at Craig for being a Christian. http://thinkingmatters.org.nz/2011/04/how-william-lane-craig-thrashed-sam-harris-like-a-naughty-puppy/bornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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Bruce as to question 3, in pure objectivity, I would hold the resurrection of Jesus to be the unimpeachable source testifying that all moral authority finds its source in God. But of course, in your own personal dealings with neo-Darwinists, you know how hard it is for people to be purely objective in their evaluation of evidence, thus, in this matter with you, I would be very surprised if you, in your pantheistic leanings, agreed with me on the 'unimpeachableness' of the resurrection. The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram - Face And Body - Dr. Petrus Soons - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5889891/ A Quantum Hologram of Christ's Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature." St. Augustinebornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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Bruce your second question was, 'Can you give me an unequivocal definition or description of “good” (in the moral sense of the term)? Something that would allow me without question to know when I am being “good” and when I am not?' Bruce it all depends on what your ultimate reference point for good is. If you, as William Lane Craig pointed out in the debate, hold to the conclusion that objective morality must find its ultimate foundation in God as the locus for the highest possible good that can exist, as I find to be a overwhelmingly reasonable position, then you are being 'good' if you do His will and grow in your eternal relationship with Him. As to what is His exact will is for your life?, I can only point to what William Lane Craig also pointed out in the debate, it is summed up in, Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself.,,,bornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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But how do I 'know' that there are different destinations for souls in the eternal realm? To that question I can only appeal to the studies of NDE's. Especially of foreign non-Judeo Christian cultures; All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. Near-Death Experiences in Thailand: Discussion of case histories By Todd Murphy, 1999: Excerpt: We would suggest that the near-constant comparisons with the most frequently reported types of NDEs tends to blind researchers to the features of NDEs which are absent in these NDEs. Tunnels are rare, if not absent. The panoramic Life Review appears to be absent. Instead, our collection shows people reviewing just a few karmically-significant incidents. Perhaps they symbolize behavioral tendencies, the results of which are then experienced as determinative of their rebirths. These incidents are read out to them from a book. There is no Being of Light in these Thai NDEs, although The Buddha does appear in a symbolic form, in case #6. Yama is present during this truncated Life Review, as is the Being of Light during Western life reviews, but Yama is anything but a being of light. In popular Thai depictions, he is shown as a wrathful being, and is most often remembered in Thai culture for his power to condemn one to hell. Some of the functions of Angels and guides are also filled by Yamatoots. They guide, lead tours of hell, and are even seen to grant requests made by the experient. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts: Excerpt: "When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you." When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains. http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/NearDeath.html Several studies (Pasricha, 1986, Schorer, 1985-86) & Kellehear, 1993) Murphy 1999,2001) have indicated that the phenomenologies of NDEs is culture-bound. (Of Note: Judeo-Christian Culture NDEs are by far the most pleasant "phenomena") Researching Muslim NDEs, on the web at the NDERF home page, I find that there are only a handful of Muslim NDE experiences out of the thousands of NDE's they have listed on their web site. There is only one really deep Muslim NDE in which there is a reference to "the Light". Not surprisingly, this NDE occurred to a teenage boy. In the handful of somewhat deep adult Muslim NDEs that I have read about, the Muslim NDES never mentioned "the Light", "Supreme Being" or a "Being of Light". If this holds steady for all adult Muslim NDEs, then this will fall into stark contrast to the majority of deep Judeo/Christian NDE testimonies of adults for the western world. Greyson and Bush (1996) classified 50 Western reports of distressing NDEs into three types: * The most common type included the same features as the pleasurable type such as an out-of-body experience and rapid movement through a tunnel or void toward a light but the NDEr, usually because of feeling out of control of what was happening, experienced the features as frightening. * The second, less common type included an acute awareness of nonexistence or of being completely alone forever in an absolute void. Sometimes the person received a totally convincing message that the real world including themselves never really existed. (note* according to one preliminary study, a similar type of this NDE may be very common among the Buddhist culture of China) * The third and rarest type included hellish imagery such as an ugly or foreboding landscape; demonic beings; loud, annoying noises; frightening animals; and other beings in extreme distress. Only rarely have such NDErs themselves felt personally tormented. Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands – The Lancet; Pim Van Lommel- Excerpt: In a prospective study, we included 344 consecutive cardiac patients who were successfully resuscitated after cardiac arrest in ten Dutch hospitals.... Findings 62 patients (18%) reported NDE, of whom 41 (12%) described a core experience. http://profezie3m.altervista.org/archivio/TheLancet_NDE.htm The Seattle Study; Pediatrics by Dr. Melvin Morse and Kimberly Clark Sharp Seattle Study- Morse discovered that of the 26 children who came close to dying, all but two reported NDEs that were eerily similar to what Moody had described. (This equates to a 92 to 93% NDE rate for children. (Reader's Digest Spirited Away - Sullivan) http://www-scf.usc.edu/~zen/files/spiritedaway.htm The Gallup poll in 1992 was of U.S. adults, and found 5% had a NDE: .05 = (number of those surveyed with a prior history of NDE)/(total number surveyed). That equates to 15 million of a population of 300 million http://www.nderf.org/number_nde_usa.htm THE FOUR TYPES OF NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES 1) Initial Experience (sometimes referred to as the "non-experience") Involves elements such as a loving nothingness, the living dark, a friendly voice, or a brief out-of-body experience; perhaps a visitation of some kind. Usually experienced by those who seem to need the least amount of evidence for proof of survival, or who need the least amount of shakeup in their lives at that point in time. Often, this become a "seed" experience or an introduction to other ways of perceiving and recognizing reality. Incident rate: 76% with child experiencers; 20% with adult experiencers 2) Unpleasant and/or Hell-like Experience (inner cleansing and self-confrontation) Encounter with a threatening void or stark limbo or hellish purgatory, or scenes of a startling and unexpected indifference, even "hauntings" from one's own past. Usually experienced by those who seem to have deeply suppressed or repressed guilts, fears, and angers, and/or those who expect some kind of punishment or discomfort after death. Incident rate: 3% with child experiencers; 15% with adult experiencers 3) Pleasant and/or Heaven-like Experience (reassurance and self-validation) Heaven-like scenarios of loving family reunions with those who have died previously, reassuring religious figures or light beings, validation that life counts, affirmative and inspiring dialogue. Usually experienced by those who most need to know how loved they are and how important life is and how every effort has a purpose in the overall scheme of things. Incident rate: 19% with child experiencers; 47% with adult experiencers 4) Transcendent Experience (expansive revelations, alternate realities) Exposure to otherworldly dimensions and scenes beyond the individual's frame of reference; sometimes includes revelations of greater truths. Seldom personal in content. Usually experienced by those who are ready for a "mind stretching" challenge and/or individuals who are more apt to utilize (to whatever degree) the truths that are revealed to them. Incident rate: 2% with child experiencers; 18% with adult experiencers http://www.theglobalintelligencer.com/aug2007/fringebornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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These following studies and videos confirm this 'superior quality' of existence for our souls/minds: Miracle Of Mind-Brain Recovery Following Hemispherectomies - Dr. Ben Carson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994585/ Removing Half of Brain Improves Young Epileptics' Lives: Excerpt: "We are awed by the apparent retention of memory and by the retention of the child's personality and sense of humor,'' Dr. Eileen P. G. Vining; In further comment from the neuro-surgeons in the John Hopkins study: "Despite removal of one hemisphere, the intellect of all but one of the children seems either unchanged or improved. Intellect was only affected in the one child who had remained in a coma, vigil-like state, attributable to peri-operative complications." http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/19/science/removing-half-of-brain-improves-young-epileptics-lives.html The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The Extremely 'Monitored' Near Death Experience of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ Kenneth Ring and Sharon Cooper (1997) conducted a study of 31 blind people, many of who reported vision during their Near Death Experiences (NDEs). 21 of these people had had an NDE while the remaining 10 had had an out-of-body experience (OBE), but no NDE. It was found that in the NDE sample, about half had been blind from birth. (of note: This 'anomaly' is also found for deaf people who can hear sound during their Near Death Experiences(NDEs).) http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2320/is_1_64/ai_65076875/ Quantum Consciousness - Time Flies Backwards? - Stuart Hameroff MD Excerpt: Dean Radin and Dick Bierman have performed a number of experiments of emotional response in human subjects. The subjects view a computer screen on which appear (at randomly varying intervals) a series of images, some of which are emotionally neutral, and some of which are highly emotional (violent, sexual....). In Radin and Bierman's early studies, skin conductance of a finger was used to measure physiological response They found that subjects responded strongly to emotional images compared to neutral images, and that the emotional response occurred between a fraction of a second to several seconds BEFORE the image appeared! Recently Professor Bierman (University of Amsterdam) repeated these experiments with subjects in an fMRI brain imager and found emotional responses in brain activity up to 4 seconds before the stimuli. Moreover he looked at raw data from other laboratories and found similar emotional responses before stimuli appeared. http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/views/TimeFlies.html Study suggests precognition may be possible - November 2010 Excerpt: A Cornell University scientist has demonstrated that psi anomalies, more commonly known as precognition, premonitions or extra-sensory perception (ESP), really do exist at a statistically significant level. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-precognition.html Mind-Brain Interaction and Science Fiction (Quantum connection) - Jeffrey Schwartz & Michael Egnor - audio http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/player/web/2008-12-01T17_28_39-08_00 In The Wonder Of Being Human: Our Brain and Our Mind, Eccles and Robinson discussed the research of three groups of scientists (Robert Porter and Cobie Brinkman, Nils Lassen and Per Roland, and Hans Kornhuber and Luder Deeke), all of whom produced startling and undeniable evidence that a "mental intention" preceded an actual neuronal firing - thereby establishing that the mind is not the same thing as the brain, but is a separate entity altogether. “As I remarked earlier, this may present an “insuperable” difficulty for some scientists of materialists bent, but the fact remains, and is demonstrated by research, that non-material mind acts on material brain.” Eccles "Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder." Heinrich Heine - in the year 1834 A Reply to Shermer Medical Evidence for NDEs (Near Death Experiences) – Pim van Lommel Excerpt: For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories (information) inside the brain, so far without success.,,,,Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation. After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories (information) inside the brain.,, In trying to understand this concept of mutual interaction between the “invisible and not measurable” consciousness, with its enormous amount of information, and our visible, material body it seems wise to compare it with modern worldwide communication.,,,bornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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Now to solidify the Theistic postulation that we have a soul; ,,,There is a mysterious 'higher dimensional' component to life: The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/#comment-369806 4-Dimensional Quarter Power Scaling In Biology - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5964041/ Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for 'random' Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this 'four dimensional scaling' of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional 'expectation' for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an 'emergent' property of the 3-D material realm. Earth’s crammed with heaven, And every common bush afire with God; But only he who sees, takes off his shoes, The rest sit round it and pluck blackberries. - Elizabeth Barrett Browning Information and entropy – top-down or bottom-up development in living systems? A.C. McINTOSH Excerpt: It is proposed in conclusion that it is the non-material information (transcendent to the matter and energy) that is actually itself constraining the local thermodynamics to be in ordered disequilibrium and with specified raised free energy levels necessary for the molecular and cellular machinery to operate. http://journals.witpress.com/journals.asp?iid=47 Quantum entanglement holds together life’s blueprint - 2010 Excerpt: “If you didn’t have entanglement, then DNA would have a simple flat structure, and you would never get the twist that seems to be important to the functioning of DNA,” says team member Vlatko Vedral of the University of Oxford. http://neshealthblog.wordpress.com/2010/09/15/quantum-entanglement-holds-together-lifes-blueprint/ Quantum Information/Entanglement In DNA & Protein Folding - short video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5936605/ Further evidence that quantum entanglement/information is found throughout entire protein structures: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/we-welcome-honest-exchanges-here/#comment-374898 It is very interesting to note that quantum entanglement, which conclusively demonstrates that ‘information’ in its pure 'quantum form' is completely transcendent of any time and space constraints, should be found in molecular biology, for how can the quantum entanglement effect in biology possibly be explained by a material (matter/energy) cause when the quantum entanglement effect falsified material particles as its own causation in the first place? (A. Aspect) Appealing to the probability of various configurations of material particles, as Darwinism does, simply will not help since a timeless/spaceless cause must be supplied which is beyond the capacity of the material particles themselves to supply! To give a coherent explanation for an effect that is shown to be completely independent of any time and space constraints one is forced to appeal to a cause that is itself not limited to time and space! i.e. Put more simply, you cannot explain a effect by a cause that has been falsified by the very same effect you are seeking to explain! Improbability arguments of various 'special' configurations of material particles, which have been a staple of the arguments against neo-Darwinism, simply do not apply since the cause is not within the material particles in the first place! Yet it is also very interesting to note, in Darwinism's inability to explain this 'transcendent quantum effect' adequately, that Theism has always postulated a transcendent component to man that is not constrained by time and space. i.e. Theism has always postulated a 'eternal soul' for man that lives past the death of the body. Further notes: The ‘Fourth Dimension’ Of Living Systems https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1Gs_qvlM8-7bFwl9rZUB9vS6SZgLH17eOZdT4UbPoy0Y Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time - March 2011 Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.htmlbornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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Bruce David. to answer your first question, let's begin by establishing the fact that we actually enter do enter eternity (a timeless dimension) upon death; To do that let's look at how the 'frameworks/dimensions' of reality are 'positioned' relative to one another: How Teleportation Will Work - Excerpt: In 1993, the idea of teleportation moved out of the realm of science fiction and into the world of theoretical possibility. It was then that physicist Charles Bennett and a team of researchers at IBM confirmed that quantum teleportation was possible, but only if the original object being teleported was destroyed. --- As predicted, the original photon no longer existed once the replica was made. http://science.howstuffworks.com/teleportation1.htm Quantum no-hiding theorem experimentally confirmed for first time Excerpt: In the classical world, information can be copied and deleted at will. In the quantum world, however, the conservation of quantum information means that information cannot be created nor destroyed. This concept stems from two fundamental theorems of quantum mechanics: the no-cloning theorem and the no-deleting theorem. A third and related theorem, called the no-hiding theorem, addresses information loss in the quantum world. According to the no-hiding theorem, if information is missing from one system (which may happen when the system interacts with the environment), then the information is simply residing somewhere else in the Universe; in other words, the missing information cannot be hidden in the correlations between a system and its environment. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-03-quantum-no-hiding-theorem-experimentally.html Explaining Information Transfer in Quantum Teleportation: Armond Duwell †‡ University of Pittsburgh Excerpt: In contrast to a classical bit, the description of a (photon) qubit requires an infinite amount of information. The amount of information is infinite because two real numbers are required in the expansion of the state vector of a two state quantum system (Jozsa 1997, 1) --- Concept 2. is used by Bennett, et al. Recall that they infer that since an infinite amount of information is required to specify a (photon) qubit, an infinite amount of information must be transferred to teleport. http://www.cas.umt.edu/phil/faculty/duwell/DuwellPSA2K.pdf That a photon would actually be destroyed upon the teleportation (separation) of its 'infinite' information to another photon is a direct controlled violation of the first law of thermodynamics. (i.e. a photon 'disappeared' from the 'material' universe when the entire information content of a photon was 'transcendently displaced' from the material universe by the experiment, when photon “c” transcendently became transmitted photon “a”). Thus, Quantum teleportation is direct empirical validation for the primary tenet of the Law of Conservation of Information (i.e. 'transcendent' information cannot be created or destroyed). This conclusion is warranted because information exercises direct dominion of energy, telling energy exactly what to be and do in the experiment. Thus, this experiment provides a direct line of logic that transcendent information cannot be created or destroyed and, in information demonstrating transcendence, and dominion, of space-time and matter-energy, becomes the only known entity that can satisfactorily explain where all energy came from as far as the origination of the universe is concerned. That is transcendent information is the only known entity which can explain where all the energy came from in the Big Bang without leaving the bounds of empirical science as the postulated multiverse does. Clearly anything that exercises dominion of the fundamental entity of this physical universe, a photon of energy, as transcendent information does in teleportation, must of necessity possess the same, as well as greater, qualities as energy does possess in the first law of thermodynamics (i.e. Energy cannot be created or destroyed by any known material means according to the first law). "I discovered that nature was constructed in a wonderful way, and our task is to find out its mathematical structure" Albert Einstein - The Einstein Factor - Reader's Digest Reflections on the 'infinite transcendent information' framework: The weight of mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, thus mass will never go the speed of light. As well, mass would disappear from our sight if it could go the speed of light, because, from our non-speed of light perspective, distance in direction of travel will shrink to zero for the mass going the speed of light, whereas conversely, if mass could travel at the speed of light its size will stay the same while all other frames of reference not traveling the speed of light will disappear from its sight. As well time, as we understand it, would come to a stop at the speed of light. To grasp the whole 'time stopping at the speed of light' concept more easily, imagine moving away from the face of a clock at the speed of light. Would not the hands on the clock stay stationary as you moved away from the face of the clock at the speed of light? Special Relativity - Time Dilation and Length Contraction - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSRIyDfo_mY For us to hypothetically travel at the speed of light, in this universe, only gets us to first base as far as quantum entanglement, or teleportation, are concerned. That is to say, traveling at the speed of light only gets us to the place where time, as we understand it, comes to complete stop for light, i.e. gets us to the eternal, 'past and future folding into now', framework of time. This higher dimension 'eternal' inference for the time framework of light is warranted because light is not 'frozen within time' yet it is shown that time, as we understand it, does not pass for light. "I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein - The Einstein Factor - Reader's Digest "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 Light and Quantum Entanglement Reflect Some Characteristics Of God - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4102182 It is very interesting to note that this strange higher dimensional, eternal, framework for time, found in special relativity, finds corroboration in Near Death Experience testimonies: 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimony 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiences It is also very interesting to point out that the 'light at the end of the tunnel', reported in many Near Death Experiences(NDEs), is also corroborated by Special Relativity when considering the optical effects for traveling at the speed of light. Please compare the similarity of the optical effect, noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-Dimensional world 'folds and collapses' into a tunnel shape around the direction of travel as an observer moves towards the 'higher dimension' of the speed of light, with the 'light at the end of the tunnel' reported in very many Near Death Experiences: Traveling At The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ Speed Of Light - Near Death Experience Tunnel - Turin Shroud - video http://www.vimeo.com/18371644 Near Death Experience – The Tunnel, The Light, The Life Review – view http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200/ The NDE and the Tunnel - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven.(Barbara Springer) Also, hypothetically traveling at the speed of light in this universe would be instantaneous travel for the person going at the speed of light. This is because time does not pass for them, but, and this is a big but; this 'timeless' travel is still not instantaneous and transcendent to our temporal framework of time, i.e. Speed of light travel, to our temporal frame of reference, is still not completely transcendent of our framework since light appears to take time to travel from our perspective. In information teleportation though the 'time not passing', eternal, framework is not only achieved in the speed of light framework/dimension, but also in our temporal framework. That is to say, the instantaneous teleportation/travel of information is instantaneous to both the temporal and speed of light frameworks, not just the speed of light framework. Information teleportation/travel is not limited by time, nor space, in any way, shape or form, in any frame of reference, as light is seemingly limited to us. Thus 'pure transcendent information' is shown to be timeless (eternal) and completely transcendent of all material frameworks. Moreover, concluding from all lines of evidence we have now examined; transcendent, eternal, infinite information is indeed real and the framework in which 'It' resides is the primary reality (highest dimension) that can exist, (in so far as our limited perception of a primary reality, highest dimension, can be discerned). "An illusion can never go faster than the speed limit of reality" Akiane - Child Prodigy Logic also dictates 'a decision' must have been made, by the 'transcendent, eternal, infinite information' from the primary timeless (eternal) reality 'It' inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse. The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914bornagain77_{April 9, 2011
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Bornagain: "But Harris, in his ‘mortal ignorance’, does not realize/accept that we really do have ‘eternal souls’ that, upon our deaths, i.e. separation from our physical temporal bodies, either must be reconciled with God, who is the primary source of all that is good, or must be separated from God and thus from all that is good." I have three questions. I have asked them before, but have never received a satisfactory answer. 1. How do you know that this is true? I am not asking you why you believe it. I am asking for some unimpeachable source of truth. 2. Can you give me an unequivocal definition or description of "good" (in the moral sense of the term)? Something that would allow me without question to know when I am being "good" and when I am not? 3. What is the unimpeachable source for the definition or description in answer to question 2?Bruce David_{April 8, 2011
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DLH, in trying to get a handle on the huge numbers involved for prophecy fulfillment, I liked this from Ankerberg; The Case for Jesus the Messiah — Incredible Prophecies that Prove God Exists By Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. John Weldon, and Dr. Walter Kaiser, Jr. Excerpt: But, of course, there are many more than eight prophecies. In another calculation Stoner used 48 prophecies (even though he could have used 456) and arrived at the extremely conservative estimate that the probability of 48 prophecies being fulfilled in one person is one in 10^157. How large is the number 10^157? 10^157 contains 157 zeros! Let us try to illustrate this number using electrons. Electrons are very small objects. They are smaller than atoms. It would take 2.5 times 10^15 of them, laid side by side, to make one inch. Even if we counted four electrons every second and counted day and night, it would still take us 19 million years just to count a line of electrons one inch long. But how many electrons would it take if we were dealing with 10^157 electrons? Imagine building a solid ball of electrons that would extend in all directions from the earth a length of 6 billion light years. The distance in miles of just one light year is 6.4 trillion miles. That would be a big ball! But not big enough to measure 10^157 electrons. In order to do that, you must take that big ball of electrons reaching the length of 6 billion light years long in all directions and multiply it by 6 x 10^28! How big is that? It’s the length of the space required to store trillions and trillions and trillions of the same gigantic balls and more. In fact, the space required to store all of these balls combined together would just start to “scratch the surface” of the number of electrons we would need to really accurately speak about 10^157. But assuming you have some idea of the number of electrons we are talking about, now imagine marking just one of those electrons in that huge number. Stir them all up. Then appoint one person to travel in a rocket for as long as he wants, anywhere he wants to go. Tell him to stop and segment a part of space, then take a high-powered microscope and find that one marked electron in that segment. What do you think his chances of being successful would be? It would be one in 10^157. http://www.johnankerberg.org/Articles/ATRJ/proof/ATRJ1103PDF/ATRJ1103-3.pdf further notes; Isaiah 53 and the Dead Sea Scrolls - verified prophecy before the birth of Christ http://www.allaboutarchaeology.org/dead-sea-scrolls-2.htm One Of The Most Compelling And Remarkable Prophecies In The Old Testament. Isaiah 53 - Prophecy Fulfilled http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVaeT1hbswo The Precisely Fulfilled Prophecy Of Israel Becoming A Nation In 1948 - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041241 Bible Prophecy Fulfilled - Israel 1948 - article http://ezinearticles.com/?Bible-Prophecy-Fulfilled---Israel-1948&id=449317bornagain77_{April 8, 2011
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Kyle Butt examines: Samuel Harris, Christ's Resurrection and the Nature of Belief He shows that Harris addresses the strawman of the Pope's statements on the resurrection, rather than grappling with the historical records of eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection. Harris dismisses prophecy. It does not appear that he has dealt with the probabilities of the fulfillment of prophecy. See: J. Barton Payne, The Encyclopedia of Prophecy, The Complete Guide to Scriptural Predictions and Their Fulfillment 1980 Baker Book, ISBN 978-0801070518 Times arrow and the four forces of nature provide no basis for prophecy being fulfilled. Yet Payne details 1,817 entries on fulfillment of prophecy, discussing 8,352 predictive verses! Even assuming a factor of 2 probability for the fulfillment of each prophecy, parts per 2^1817 should be "significant"! I think that is rather larger than 10^120.DLH_{April 8, 2011
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Harris' ideas and beliefs are a confused mess.Clive Hayden_{April 8, 2011
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In the debate, one of the overriding concerns from Harris, it seemed to me, is that Harris would so vehemently attack what he perceived to be the unjustness of hell,,, the hell of any religion. But Harris, in his 'mortal ignorance', does not realize/accept that we really do have 'eternal souls' that, upon our deaths, i.e. separation from our physical temporal bodies, either must be reconciled with God, who is the primary source of all that is good, or must be separated from God and thus from all that is good. There simply is no 'plan b' once you enter eternity. Yet we have a big problem in that we are, in our present state, 'sinful' beings! Moreover it is impossible for us to attain, by our own strength, the perfection required for God's infinite justice on sin, thus God Himself had to make the 'perfect propitiation' for our sins through Jesus. Harris may dislike what he presently perceives to be the 'unjustness' of hell but he is merely looking at the picture through his fallible, temporal, and all too human, 'mortal eyes' and does not fully realize the gravity of our present situation, and more certainly, he does not realize the sheer gravity that our present choices have in effecting our eternal destination once we enter eternity, upon our deaths to this 'temporal' world; Notes; The unification, into a 'theory of everything', between what is in essence the 'infinite world of Quantum Mechanics' and the 'finite world of the space-time of General Relativity' seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man. Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, though not directly addressing the Zero/Infinity conflict in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers insight into this 'unification' of the infinite and the finite: The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg A Quantum Hologram of Christ's Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature." St. Augustine Philippians 2: 5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. further note; ,,,If scientists want to find the source for the supernatural light which made the "3D - photographic negative" image I suggest they look to the thousands of documented Near-Death Experiences (NDE's) in Judeo-Christian cultures. It is in their testimonies that you will find mention of an indescribably bright 'Light' or 'Being of Light' who is always described as being of a much brighter intensity of light than the people had ever seen before. All people who have been in the presence of 'The Being of Light' while having a deep NDE have no doubt whatsoever that the 'The Being of Light' they were in the presence of is none other than 'The Lord God Almighty' of heaven and earth. In The Presence Of Almighty God - The NDE of Mickey Robinson - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045544 The Day I Died - Part 4 of 6 - The NDE of Pam Reynolds - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4045560 The Scientific Evidence for Near Death Experiences - Dr Jeffery Long - Melvin Morse M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627 Blind Woman Can See During Near Death Experience (NDE) - Pim von Lommel - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994599/ further note; as to the importance of having Christ in your life; It should be noted: All foreign, non-Judeo-Christian culture, NDE studies I have looked at have a extreme rarity of encounters with 'The Being Of Light' and tend to be very unpleasant NDE's save for the few pleasant children's NDEs of those cultures that I've seen (It seems there is indeed an 'age of accountability'). The following study was shocking for what was found in some non-Judeo-Christian NDE's: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm ------------- Hebrews 2:14-15 "Since we, God's children, are human beings - made of flesh and blood - He became flesh and blood too by being born in human form; for only as a human being could He die and in dying break the power of the devil who had the power of death. Only in that way could He deliver those who through fear of death have been living all their lives as slaves to constant dread." further notes; Bill Wiese on Sid Roth (23 minutes in hell) - Reality of 'Eternal Dimension' discussed in description of video http://www.vimeo.com/21230371 etc.. etc.. etc..bornagain77_{April 8, 2011
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This may be useful for those doing the behind-the-scenes techie stuff re these debates: http://news.slashdot.org/story/11/04/08/1746247/Google-Rolling-Out-Live-Streaming-For-YouTubeNZer_{April 8, 2011
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DLH, "nor does it appear that he has tested between claims made for the various gods or for a Supreme Being." This is true. He seems rather conflicted as to the specific nature of the various claims of faith without getting into how they were derived. He seems particularly ignorant about the history and development of Islam as a specifically Abrahamic religion, liken to Judaism and Christianity - when he makes pronouncements about our predicament if it is true. I don't think he really understands the kalam Cosmological argument - though that's not what the debate was about. I think if the debate was about the existence of God Craig would have pounded him even harder.CannuckianYankee_{April 8, 2011
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Re: "5) He doesn’t like the Christian God" He does not appear to like any "god" nor does it appear that he has tested between claims made for the various gods or for a Supreme Being.DLH_{April 8, 2011
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DHL, "When Harris sais there is no evidence for god – is it because: 1) He has not looked? 2) He excludes the possibility a priori 3) He takes others word for it? 4) He actually has looked?" I think you left out 5) He doesn't like the Christian God and 6) All of the above (provided that looking for God is equivalent to physically looking for an immaterial God like the Soviets did in space). Off Topic: Apparently a brand new thing over at EvolutionNews is the ability to comment. I guess we have a new ID blog competitor (of sorts) on the block. http://www.evolutionnews.org/comment-policy.htmlCannuckianYankee_{April 8, 2011
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bornagain77
Harris . . . acted as if materialistic atheism had sole propriety on science and logic.
Important observation. Craig detailed how there is no objective basis for morality in atheism. Harris tried to wear "science" as the basis for all his arguments. As noted above, one's presuppositions are critical to what "science" is and can do. "Science" with neutral presuppositions provides an objective (multi-viewer) basis for reporting and modeling natural phenomena. When Harris sais there is no evidence for god - is it because: 1) He has not looked? 2) He excludes the possibility a priori 3) He takes others word for it? 4) He actually has looked? Would Harris accept evidence if it was presented? etc.DLH_{April 8, 2011
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