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Eric Holloway: ID as a bridge between Francis Bacon and Thomas Aquinas

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Eric Holloway, an electrical and computer engineer, offers some thoughts on how to prevent science from devolving into “scientism.” For an example of scientism, see Peter Atkins’s claim that science can answer all the Big Questions. Here’s John Mark Reynolds’s outline of the general problem:

Sometimes a culture takes a right road, sometimes it passes the right way and ends up a bit lost. Western Europe had a chance at the start of seventeenth century to get a few things right, but by the eighteenth century most had taken a worse way: Enlightenment or reaction. Enlightenment lost the wisdom of the Middle Ages, creating the myth of a dark age, and the main enlightened nation, France, ended the seventeenth century in butchery and dictatorship. Instead of the development of an urbane Spain Cervantes might have prefigured, there was a mere reaction away from the new ideas, including the good ones. More.

Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Baconian Science and Thomistic Philosophy

Imagine giving your friend a good book filled with beautiful pictures and stories. Instead of reading it, the friend begins to count the letters, and make theories about which letters predict which pictures will come next, and analyze the types of ink used to print the pages. This does not make sense. Why doesn’t he just read the book? The reason, he claims, is because we do not want to bias ourselves by assuming the ink was arranged purposefully.

Carlo Crivelli 007.jpg
Thomas Aquinas

This story illustrates difference in perspective of the medieval ages and our modern scientific age. The medieval worldview was marked by the voluminous philosophy of Thomas Aquinas (1224/6—1274). The worldview of that time was that God is ultimate existence, and creation is ordered towards maximizing its existence in God. As such, there is a natural law that must be followed for humankind to flourish. Deviation from the natural law results in cessation of existence and death. Due to the ability of the human mind to rationally grasp changeless principles, the medievals thought there was something changeless and immortal about the human soul. Since all other physical creatures do not have this rational ability, they exist to a less perfect degree than human beings. This means that all humans inherently have a higher worth than all the rest of physical creation, and at the same time all humans are equal since it is of the nature of humankind to be rational, even if particular humans are incapable of rational thought
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But, the intricate medieval tapestry begins to unravel. An expanding view of the globe, major diseases and wars, and internal criticisms leads to a breakdown of the Thomistic system. Francis Bacon (1561–1626), a leading popularizer of what we consider modern science, grows impatient with the monks’ philosophizing and debating. Demanding results, Bacon recommends carefully dissecting nature’s mysteries to heal the world’s suffering, instead of wondering about the meaning of it all. And thus was born the modern scientific age, where the perception of meaning is only a biased illusion and truth must be empirically measurable.

Today, Bacon’s view is the dominant view, so much so that we take it for granted. Science and technology have led to a revolution in health, wealth and material happiness throughout the world. In the space of a few centuries it has lifted the majority of the earth’s booming population out of poverty. The rigorous vision of Bacon, spoken with the precision of math, has given us the gift of the gods, but has also resulted in unprecedented death and destruction, horrific human experimentation, mass enslavement, cultural disintegration, and in general left us with a sense that we have lost something of great value that we cannot find again. The core reason for the aimlessness is because the building blocks of science are inert. They are like Legos in a box. You cannot shake the box of Legos and expect a spaceship to fall out. In the same way, mathematical proof and physical evidence cannot explain their own reason for being. Science cannot explain meaning. At the same time, the very inability of science to speak for itself says something of interest.

Somer Francis Bacon.jpg
Francis Bacon

In medieval language this missing meaning is called function. Function cannot emerge from atoms in motion. It cannot emerge from shaking the Lego box. This claim can be proven mathematically. In information theory, function is a kind of mutual information. Mutual information is subject to the law of information non-increase, which means mutual information and thus function cannot be created by natural processes. Thus, without an organizing force, matter is functionless and void, and there is no meaning.

The fundamental insight of the intelligent design movement is that we can empirically differentiate function from accidental patterns created by natural processes. This means we can describe the Thomistic system with Baconian empirical precision if we really wanted to. Fortunately, humans seem to be pretty good at identifying function without huge amounts of empirical justification, unless they are university trained. The empirical detection of function is a new pair of glasses that corrects Bacon’s vision, and helps us again follow along the path that winds back through the medieval monasteries of Thomas Aquinas, with the mathematical and empirical rigor of science.

But, after hearing this Bacon will say, “it all sounds quite nice, but how is it useful? Function doesn’t feed children or cure cancer.” The answer to Bacon’s question is illustrated with the story of the book at the beginning. If we approach the natural world as if it were arbitrarily put together, then we miss many clues that can help us to understand and use it better.

We are seeing the scientific importance of empirically detecting function now with the ENCODE project. Previously, scientists believed that since the human genome was produced by evolution, most of it would be random and functionless. However, the ENCODE project has shown the majority of the human genome is functional. Now that we understand the genome is mostly functional, we will be better able to decode how it works and programs our body. So, contrary to Bacon, being able to detect function in the human genome can help us improve our lives.

This raises the further question: how would science change if we broaden our detection of function to the rest of the world? Since things work better if they follow their function, does this mean there is a proper order for human flourishing, as the medievals believed? Furthermore, what does science have to say about the creators of function, such as humans? Since matter cannot create function, function creators cannot be reduced to matter. And being more than matter, human beings must be more valuable than any material good. While it is true we cannot go from is to ought, intelligent design does provide a scientific basis for human ontological and pragmatic worth, as well as justify a natural law that must be followed in order for humanity to prosper. So, through the lens of intelligent design, science can indeed talk about the metaphysical realm of value and morals and explain the medieval worldview of function in the empirical language of modern science.

Note: This post also appeared at Patheos (August 30, 2018)

See also: Could one single machine invent everything? (Eric Holloway)

and

Renowned chemist on why only science can answer the Big Questions (Of course, he define th Big Questions as precisely the ones science can answer, dismissing the others a not worth bothering with.)

Comments
And came across another paper Briefings in Bioinformatics from 2013. Information theory applications for biological sequence analysis Susana Vinga Briefings in Bioinformatics, Volume 15, Issue 3, 1 May 2014, Pages 376–389, https://doi.org/10.1093/bib/bbt068 Published: 20 September 2013 Article history https://academic.oup.com/bib/article/15/3/376/183705
Abstract Information theory (IT) addresses the analysis of communication systems and has been widely applied in molecular biology. In particular, alignment-free sequence analysis and comparison greatly benefited from concepts derived from IT, such as entropy and mutual information. This review covers several aspects of IT applications, ranging from genome global analysis and comparison, including block-entropy estimation and resolution-free metrics based on iterative maps, to local analysis, comprising the classification of motifs, prediction of transcription factor binding sites and sequence characterization based on linguistic complexity and entropic profiles. IT has also been applied to high-level correlations that combine DNA, RNA or protein features with sequence-independent properties, such as gene mapping and phenotype analysis, and has also provided models based on communication systems theory to describe information transmission channels at the cell level and also during evolutionary processes. While not exhaustive, this review attempts to categorize existing methods and to indicate their relation with broader transversal topics such as genomic signatures, data compression and complexity, time series analysis and phylogenetic classification, providing a resource for future developments in this promising area.
Introduction
Information theory (IT) addresses the analysis of communication systems, which are usually defined as connected blocks representing a source of messages, an encoder, a (noisy) channel, a decoder and a receiver. IT, generally regarded as having been founded by Claude Shannon (1948) [1, 2], attempts to construct mathematical models for each of the components of these systems. IT has answered two essential questions about the ultimate data compression, related with the entropy of a source, and also the maximum possible transmission rate through a channel, associated with its capacity, computed by its statistical noise characteristics. The fundamental theorem of IT states that it is possible to transmit information through a noisy channel (at any rate less than channel capacity) with an arbitrary small probability of error. This was a surprising and counter-intuitive result. The key idea to achieve such transmission is to wait for several blocks of information and use code words, adding redundancy to the transmitted information [3, 4].
and...
Compression is also related with Shannon’s entropy definitions and was also applied to biological sequences. There is a clear association between these concepts: a sequence with low entropy (high redundancy) will, in principle, be more compressible and the length of the compressed sequence gives an estimate of its complexity, and consequently, of its entropy [20]. The drawback of this method is its dependency on the compression procedures, which might fail to recognize complex organization levels in the sequences. Although data compression is closely related with IT applications, a complete review of this topic is out of the scope of this work; see other surveys on average mutual information (AMI) applications [21], Kolmogorov complexity-based features [22] and a comprehensive review by Giancarlo et al. [23] for more details.
DATCG
September 8, 2018
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EricMH, Curious if you've read ... Three subsets of sequence complexity and their relevance to biopolymeric information by David L Abel and Jack T Trevors https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1208958/ Often, it seems disagreements between Darwinist and Design Theorist tend to be between definitions of Order and Organization. Much like a snowflake, a hurricane or the Cell(manufacturing plant). If you have read the paper, curious how you see "Mutual Information" in relation to 3rd Subset of Functional Sequence Complexity, or Organized - Functional Sequence Complexity in the paper as opposed to Ordered Sequence and Random Sequence. From the paper...
Genetic sequence complexity is unique in nature "Complexity," even "sequence complexity," is an inadequate term to describe the phenomenon of genetic "recipe." Innumerable phenomena in nature are self-ordered or complex without being instructive (e.g., crystals, complex lipids, certain polysaccharides). Other complex structures are the product of digital recipe (e.g., antibodies, signal recognition particles, transport proteins, hormones). Recipe specifies algorithmic function. Recipes are like programming instructions. They are strings of prescribed decision-node configurable switch-settings. If executed properly, they become like bug-free computer programs running in quality operating systems on fully operational hardware. The cell appears to be making its own choices. Ultimately, everything the cell does is programmed by its hardware, operating system, and software. Its responses to environmental stimuli seem free. But they are merely pre-programmed degrees of operational freedom.
and FSC ...
Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC) A linear, digital, cybernetic string of symbols representing syntactic, semantic and pragmatic prescription; each successive sign in the string is a representation of a decision-node configurable switch-setting – a specific selection for function. FSC is a succession of algorithmic selections leading to function. Selection, specification, or signification of certain "choices" in FSC sequences results only from nonrandom selection. These selections at successive decision nodes cannot be forced by deterministic cause-and-effect necessity. If they were, nearly all decision-node selections would be the same. They would be highly ordered (OSC). And the selections cannot be random (RSC). No sophisticated program has ever been observed to be written by successive coin flips where heads is "1" and tails is "0." We speak loosely as though "bits" of information in computer programs represented specific integrated binary choice commitments made with intent at successive algorithmic decision nodes. The latter is true of FSC, but technically such an algorithmic process cannot possibly be measured by bits (-log2 P) except in the sense of transmission engineering. Shannon [2,3] was interested in signal space, not in particular messages. Shannon mathematics deals only with averaged probabilistic combinatorics. FSC requires a specification of the sequence of FSC choices. They cannot be averaged without loss of prescriptive information (instructions).
I hope to check back in tomorrow if you reply. Thanks.DATCG
September 8, 2018
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jdk, Here's a thread with some of EricMH's posts on the BB function, relating it to ID. Link to the original BB function paper. Finally, the fascinating blog entry/paper that EricMH's posts led me to.daveS
September 8, 2018
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Mung, EricMH
The expected mutual information produced by an arbitrary combination of random and deterministic processing is always non-positive.
This sounds like it might be interesting, but its really not. Mutual information is just the mutual dependence between two random variables. The dependency is a property of the variables' probability distributions i.e. the ranges within which they randomly vary. So randomly varying a random variable isn't going to change the nature of that dependency. I'm really not sure why you think mutual information means anything more than this ...Quaesitor
September 7, 2018
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Link to the busy beaver, Dave?jdk
September 7, 2018
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EricMH, Off-topic: It's only now that I realize you are the Eric Holloway of the OP. I recall some very interesting posts of yours having to do with the busy-beaver function, which has provided much food for thought for me recently.daveS
September 7, 2018
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@EW, glad to know you are Tom English. Despite your invective and ad hominem attacks on ID people, which is not really called for, the actual math you do is pretty informative, and it's developed my thinking on the matter a fair amount. For example, connecting ASC to the Kolmogorov minimal sufficient statistic is very interesting, and a topic I've thought about for quite awhile. They don't quite connect, since the context in KMSS is dependent on X, whereas in ASC it is not, but I hope to bridge that issue at some point. You are one of only a handful of ID skeptics (one or two?) that actually posts coherent rebuttals, which I greatly appreciate. You are right, there is a fair amount of information theory that corroborate ID claims which we are unfortunately ignorant about. That is certainly embarrassing, and demonstrates a lack of due diligence, as you point out. It has been really eye opening to me during my dissertation research to discover just how well supported ID is by much more credible sources. Your work has been a big help in that regard. @Mung, since all finite physical objects can be generated by a random process, then there is probability any physical object, designed or not, can be generated by flipping a coin. So, that is not really the sort of claim we are interested in. We are interested in the expected value, which is something we can make an absolute claim about. The expected mutual information produced by an arbitrary combination of random and deterministic processing is always non-positive. This is because the expectation forms the negative Kullback-Liebler distance, which is always non positive. I would be happy to get into more empirical demonstrations of this idea, but it will take time and effort on my part, which I'm only willing to dedicate if there is sincere interest on your part. I've got a busy life, and cannot throw away time on frivolous exchanges. But I'm more than willing to do my best effort for sincere intentions to understand. So, Mung, if you are truly interested, let me know, and I'll work on something more concrete.EricMH
September 7, 2018
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Mung
I still see no connection to function.
I see where you are going and I agree that he needs to develop the connection between mutual information and information and function. In the case of DNA coding for proteins we do see a direct of mutual information as the nucleic acid sequence directly translates to the amino acid acid sequence although the nucleic acid sequence can vary to some degree and still translate to the same amino acid sequence. The amino acid sequence folds into a functional protein. The question in my mind if his proof covers this scenario.bill cole
September 7, 2018
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WB, active info is indeed a manifestation of CSI, in the context of search challenge to find islands of function. Thus, we can estimate how much info had to be intelligently added to make the functional outcome plausible relative to blind chance and/or mechanical necessity. KF PS: I have cited definitions at the indicated points in NFL. There is also a diagram.kairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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ET:
Tom English, yes, an idiot savant if there ever was one.
You're a lovely person.Erasmus Wiffball
September 7, 2018
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PS: Orgel, in more extended form:
living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . . [HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure.
[--> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant J S Wicken "wiring diagram" for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, -- here and -- here -- (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).]
One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [--> so if the q's to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions.  [--> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes [--> Orgel had high hopes for what Chem evo and body-plan evo could do by way of info generation beyond the FSCO/I threshold, 500 - 1,000 bits.] [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]
kairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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F/N: For record,
CONCEPT: NFL, p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [cf. p 144 as cited below], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways
[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites: Wouters, p. 148: "globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms," Behe, p. 148: "minimal function of biochemical systems," Dawkins, pp. 148 - 9: "Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction." On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel's famous remark on specified complexity from 1973, which exactly cited reads: " In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . ." And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: "Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity."] . . .”
DEFINITION: p. 144: [Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
KFkairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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WB, your dismissal of one of the leading astrophysicists and cosmologists of the past 100 years, speaking to matters well within his technical knowledge base, tells us volumes and not in favour of the cause you seek to promote. KFkairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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EricMH:
At any rate, I am really interested in any refutation of my argument
Not to be unkind, but I am not sure what your argument is. Is it that you have a mathematical proof, based on information theory, that we cannot apply random processing to a lump of matter and expect it to turn into an onion cutting knife? Is your argument a probabilistic one, if so, should you not say that we probably would not observe it, but that doesn't mean it is impossible? I sill don't know what your random variables are and what trying to reproduce at the receiver an encoded signal sent from the source has to do with making an onion cutting knife. And how do you respond to my pointing out that your argument is actually an anti-ID argument? Perhaps you go too far. :) Look, you've made some claims, I'm just trying to figure out how you justify them. Those are the missing steps one would need in order to understand why your argument should prevail. I think you can get way with very general claims such as what appears in the OP here at UD because you are essentially "preaching to the choir." But I think it's a bad habit to get into because it only serves to make ID look silly. Do you think anyone else here understands your argument?Mung
September 7, 2018
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Tom English, yes, an idiot savant if there ever was one. But go ahead and respond to Eric. I will leave you be seeing that you don't have anything to offerET
September 7, 2018
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ET:
The problem is with all the sock puppets you allow to pollute UD
My name is Tom English. My handle, "Erasmus Wiffball," is ugly. I admit to that. I've been banned from UD many times. Barry can ban me now, if he thinks that's actually a judicious response. I rarely post here anymore, and simply needed a break this morning from something I'd worked on through the night. I actually came to respond to Eric Holloway, and, being just a tad sleep-deprived, went off track. I do not know for a fact that the changes in Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics were in response to my post on algorithmic specified complexity. But the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong.Erasmus Wiffball
September 7, 2018
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EW:
I’ve already asked you for help, and have acknowledged that promulgation of intelligent design theory is a fantastic way to go about bringing sinners like me to Jesus.
Except for the fact that ID has nothing to do with Jesus nor sinners. So perhaps you should start with an education.ET
September 7, 2018
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The Apostle Paul would be an intelligent-design theorist with a Ph.D. in electrical and computer engineering, were he alive today. Obviously.
Well evolutionary biologists can't answer anything with respect to the claims of evolutionism. They can't even formulate a scientific theory of evolution. But I digress. In Approaching Biology From a Different Angle we read:
Systems biology is a loosely defined term, but the main idea is that biology is an information science, with genes a sort of digital code. Moreover, while much of molecular biology has involved studying a single gene or protein in depth, systems biology looks at the bigger picture, how all the genes and proteins interact. Ultimately the goal is to develop computer models that can predict the behavior of cells or organisms, much as Boeing can simulate how a plane will fly before it is built. But such a task requires biologists to team up with computer scientists, engineers, physicists and mathematicians.
Not that EW would understand what that means...ET
September 7, 2018
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Umm, active information is a form of CSI, duh.ET
September 7, 2018
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KF:
WB, kindly cf pp 144 and 148-9, NFL. KF
What in the world do you think you accomplish with little displays like this? I've reread NFL in the past year. How about you? I was amazed at the number of passages that are closely paralleled in Introduction to Evolutionary Informatics, but are attached to active information instead of complex specified information. Of course, Marks, Dembski, and Ewert never admit that Dembski fouled up.Erasmus Wiffball
September 7, 2018
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ET:
Clearly you have other issues and should seek help
I've already asked you for help, and have acknowledged that promulgation of intelligent design theory is a fantastic way to go about bringing sinners like me to Jesus. I can tell that you actually love me, and are deeply concerned about the fate of my soul. The Apostle Paul would be an intelligent-design theorist with a Ph.D. in electrical and computer engineering, were he alive today. Obviously.Erasmus Wiffball
September 7, 2018
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PS: Prior to that, kindly see Orgel and Wicken.kairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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WB, kindly cf pp 144 and 148-9, NFL. KFkairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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@EricMH #48 Quaesitor explained it better than I can, in post #49. What you have essentially done is what is called a "quote-mine" followed by a hasty generalization. It's like taking the principles of thermodynamics that apply to closed systems, and claiming that they apply also to open systems, so they can argue that local decreases in entropy are impossible. Creationists fall for that because they often don't understand thermo, and they often don't get the concept of scope of applicability. Or because the person using the argument CONVENIENTLY omits the discussion of scope. Have you taken your required class in thermo yet? Those are so much fun.Deputy Dog
September 7, 2018
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Kairos focus- I am toned down. The problem is with all the sock puppets you allow to pollute UDET
September 7, 2018
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EW:
This is not an empty jibe, but instead a straight call on what I’ve seen over the past 15 years: an ID proponent is usually someone who has gained proficiency in some area other than science, and who somehow has failed to recognize that he’s as ignorant of science as scientists are of his area of proficiency.
Right gibberish, ie meaningless language
I really shouldn’t look too hard at the wording of “ID has a scientifically testable methodology.”
Of course not. You prefer to be willfully ignorant.ET
September 7, 2018
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ET, please tone down. KFkairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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WB, you have distorted the matter. Besides, the outline made above still obtains. It is noticeable that you are emphasising personalities rather than that substance on the merits. KFkairosfocus
September 7, 2018
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ET:
And the fact that you quote-mined me proves that you are a clueless dolt on an agenda
So, in full context, it was clear that you really didn't mean "gibberish" with the word gibberish? I'm leaving out crucial context, just so I can embarrass you by invoking the dictionary definition of the term? Wow, I quote-mined. I hate quote miners. How could I have stooped so low? OK, here's what I wrote, and that you called gibberish:
This is not an empty jibe, but instead a straight call on what I’ve seen over the past 15 years: an ID proponent is usually someone who has gained proficiency in some area other than science, and who somehow has failed to recognize that he’s as ignorant of science as scientists are of his area of proficiency.
Now, I believe that the meaning of the passage is very clear, so I suggested that you have your very own meaning of gibberish, which is different from that associated with the word by most people in the English-speaking world. I suppose, when accused of quote-mining, I had better dump the mine from which I got the quote:
What a load of gibberish. This is what I have seen for the last 50+ years- an evolutionist is usually someone clueless about science and what it entails. They are usually cowardly equivocators with no shame but tons of belligerence. They refuse to say how to test their claims- they refuse because no one has a clue how to do so. On the other hand ID has a scientifically testable methodology. That alone is by far more than evos can muster. Erasmus Wiffball is just another clueless evo who thinks its raw spewage is some sort of argument
So, in full context, I should understand that you really just wanted to spit out something nasty sounding, and should not take you to task on the meaning of gibberish. And if I don't properly respect your need to emote, without excessive concern for the meaning of the words you use, then I am a quote-miner. And I can only dig my hole deeper by taking you to task on the meaning of quote-miner. I really shouldn't look too hard at the wording of "ID has a scientifically testable methodology." I simply should respect your feelings about the words, and not parse them. A close parse would be unfair. Yeah. UNFAIR. If you were the president, it would be treason.Erasmus Wiffball
September 7, 2018
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Look, Erasmus, YOU made the claim. Either you support it or retract it. And Intelligent Design doesn't care about you. And stop quote-mining me. Clearly you have other issues and should seek helpET
September 7, 2018
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