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God as a necessary, maximally great, endless being vs. the challenge to an actual infinity

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In a recent thread, the Kalam Cosmological argument family was challenged on the issue: can an actual infinity exist? If not (presumably due to Hilbert’s Hotel-like absurdities), then God could not be an infinite being as such is impossible of being.

A thread of discussion developed, and I thought a summary intervention may be helpful. On further thought, perhaps it should be headlined:

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KF, 12: >> I think several themes are worth highlighting.

It can be discussed that non-being, true nothingness cannot be a causal source. Were there ever utter nothing, such would therefore forever obtain. There would be no world.But, manifestly, there is a world.

So, we must ponder the logic of being, at least in a nutshell.

Candidates to being may be such that core characteristics central to identity stand in mutual contradiction such as those of a square circle. Such are impossible of being. And, we see principles of distinct identity necessarily embedded from the outset, especially that truths must be all so together so X and Y where Y = ~ X is not a possible state of affairs. If something could exist in a possible world were it actualised as a state of affairs, it is a possible being.

Of these, some Z can be in at least one possible world Wi, but not in another “neighbouring” one, Wj — contingent beings. The difference Wi – Wj will contain some unmet on-off enabling circumstance for Z . . . a necessary causal condition or factor for Z, say C. If Z is a fire, it requires heat, fuel, oxidiser and an uninterfered-with combustion chain reaction (cf. how Halon extinguishers work).

By contrast, we can see a being N that has no dependence on any such C, which will be in any and all possible worlds. That is, N is a necessary being and will be part of the common framework for any world W to exist. For example, distinct identity (A vs ~A) entails that two-ness and so also the endless set of naturals, must exist. [Beyond which lie the transfinites and the surreals as illustrated.] And, without necessary causal factors C, such has no beginning or end. Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary. (Theists, classically hold that things like numbers are eternally contemplated by God, for instance.)

Any given case Ni is eternal, causeless, framework for any possible world, enabling and structuring it in some way. Notice, eternality not infinity, has been asserted, on the strength that for some W to be, some N must be as key to its framework. We readily see this for two-ness etc.

Such is strange to our ears, maybe, but that is a fault of our education not the logic.

Now too, our world is one of finite stage causal succession as we can see from succession of generations. But it is dubious for such to have existed to the infinitely — endlessly — remote past, as to succeed from some stage s_k to s_k+1, s_k+2 etc is equivalent to a counting succession 0,1,2 . . . which succeeds without limit but in an instance will be such that some later s_p to s_p+1, s_p+2 etc can again be matched 1:1 with 0,1,2 . . . thus showing that a transfinite span, credibly, cannot be traversed in finite-stage successive, cumulative steps. Thus if we are at a now, no S_k is transfinitely remote, even beyond say a big bang at 13.8 BYA. Our world W_a is credibly not some Ni, and has a beginning. It has a cause, a capable, sufficient one.

Where, we exist therein as responsibly and rationally free, morally governed creatures. This constrains the N_a that is at the world-root. For, post Hume et al, only at that level can the IS-OUGHT gap be soundly bridged. And we all know that after centuries of debate, only one serious candidate stands — just put up a viable alternative if you think you can. Good luck with that: ______ (Predictably, a fail.)

This is: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.

But, what about, God is infinite?

I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end.

God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.

So, I think we need to reflect on what sense is meant when it is suggested that an actual infinity is impossible of being, and what are its strengths and limitations. For sure, an endless past of finite stage causal succession seems impossible and a physical, materially based infinite quantity is also dubious. But, the transfinite set of natural numbers and beyond the surreals great and small all seem necessary — framework to any world. Which in turn suggests mind capable of such a contemplation.

And more.>>

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Food for thought. END

Comments
daveS, "But again, why must there be a first person to have the iPad? I see no argument to justify this conclusion." Because if there is no FIRST then no one has an iPad. Surely you can see this. If no one has one then no one has one. But I do have one. Ergo someone had one to give. Perhaps if you try to state your argument you will see the flaw. One clarification prompted by UB. I claim an infinite regress can't exist because it's a contradiction in terms. A regress is a series of events and there can be no such thing as an infinite series of events because a series can always have one more. We say "infinite regress" as if it is something, but it's not. It's no more a thing than a square circle is a thing. Something that is infinite has no potential to be more than it is. There is no adding to it. IF you are adding something to something else it's not infinite.tgpeeler
December 19, 2017
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DaveS Suppose someone is standing outside the infinite regress holding an IPad. And suppose that no one in the infinite regress has an IPad. The person outside wants to give the IPad to someone inside the infinite regress, in order for you (at the end of the line, in the now) to have one, but he needs to give it to the 'First Person' in line. He must give the IPad to the 'First Person', because the requirement 'everyone at some point held the IPad' must be true. This person, outside the infinite regress, is in for an endless journey. IOWs the IPad never enters the infinite regress.Origenes
December 19, 2017
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tgpeeler,
BUT, if I did have an iPad, that means that someone in the regress had it FIRST.
But again, why must there be a first person to have the iPad? I see no argument to justify this conclusion. If infinite regresses are impossible, then of course that solves your problem, but my understanding is that we are, for the sake of argument, assuming they could exist. Under that assumption, why couldn't everyone in the infinite chain possess the iPad briefly before passing it on to the next person?daveS
December 18, 2017
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I just saw the visual. This is not what I'm talking about. In fact, this illustrates my point. The only reason the last guy could have the football was that someone in the regress first had one to toss to him. If no one had a football, the guy at the end could never have had one. There is no such thing as an infinite regress, for one. It's akin to saying square circle. And two, any appeal to an infinite regress as an explanation for anything fails because it's an incoherent idea. Once the terms are defined it becomes obvious that "infinite regress" is nonsense.tgpeeler
December 18, 2017
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Geez. I am beginning to doubt my command of the English language. The original point, if I remember correctly, was to deny the ability of an "infinite regress" to explain anything. In fact, I would deny the existence of any infinite regress because any series of events is finite by definition, but for the sake of argument, I am "playing along" with the idea that an infinite regress is possible. In my illustration, I tried to make the point that an infinite number of people without iPads (or whatever) could not explain why I (at the current end of the regress) had one. In order for the person next to me to be able to give me an iPad, he would have to have one first. And in order for him to have one, the person next to him would have to have one. And so on. If no one if the regress had an iPad to give then obviously I could not have one either. An infinite number of 0s does not = 1. BUT, if I did have an iPad, that means that someone in the regress had it FIRST. That means they didn't have to get it from someone else because no one else had one. So the one with the iPad passes it forward and it becomes possible for me to have it. Note the regress is no longer "infinite" as it began with the one holding the iPad. I am sure this argument is demonstrative.tgpeeler
December 18, 2017
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Yes, that's right. Edit: Here's a visual.daveS
December 18, 2017
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DaveS: My point was that there need not be a “first” person with an iPad. That is, why couldn’t everyone in the chain receive the iPad from someone else, and then pass it on to the next person?
To be clear, there is only one IPad in play. And everyone at some point held this IPad. Right?Origenes
December 18, 2017
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tgpeeler, Yes, that also seems clear to me, so perhaps we are talking about different things. My point was that there need not be a "first" person with an iPad. That is, why couldn't everyone in the chain receive the iPad from someone else, and then pass it on to the next person?daveS
December 18, 2017
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daveS, my point is that an infinite regress of no one with an iPad means that I cannot have one. But (modus tollens) if I DO HAVE one then the explanation lies in the termination of the alleged infinite regress with someone who has one to pass forward. This seems very clear to me.tgpeeler
December 18, 2017
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DaveS: More importantly, the traversal in #1 is moving forward in time, while the other one is moving backward. One is beginningless, one is endless.
#1 seems to have a problem at the end (or in the now, if you will), because there is no one to give an I pad to (yet), so, unlike everyone else, that person has 2 IPads. #2 seems to be beginningless in the sense that there is no IPad coming into existence. - - - - edit: irrelevant because of #63Origenes
December 17, 2017
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Origenes, Sorry, you were right---there is just one iPad, but it's being passed around to everyone.daveS
December 17, 2017
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DaveS: No, the two scenarios are very different. For one thing, everyone has an iPad in scenario 1, while no one does in scenario 2.
Oh, I misunderstood. I thought in scenario 1) a single IPad was in play. In #29 you are not making this clear.Origenes
December 17, 2017
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Origenes, No, the two scenarios are very different. For one thing, everyone has an iPad in scenario 1, while no one does in scenario 2. More importantly, the traversal in #1 is moving forward in time, while the other one is moving backward. One is beginningless, one is endless. In one case, the infinite set traversed has order type ω*, while the other has order type ω. KF and I (among others) probably spent hundreds of posts debating the distinction between these two types of traversals. To sum up, my explanation in #1 is completely different than scenario #2.daveS
December 17, 2017
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KF,
I suggest that if an iPad is infinitely remote, it can never be traversed to here and now in a succession of finite stage steps as it is precisely that, endlessly remote.
KF, No doubt you can guess what my response would be. :-) And I can probably guess what your response to that will be.daveS
December 17, 2017
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DaveS @57, Do you agree with my analysis (see #56) that in your scenario 1) (see #29) you offer the scenario in 2) as an explanation for you having an IPad?Origenes
December 17, 2017
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DS, I pointed the disagreement. I suggest that if an iPad is infinitely remote, it can never be traversed to here and now in a succession of finite stage steps as it is precisely that, endlessly remote. KFkairosfocus
December 17, 2017
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Origenes, I actually do not agree with KF that the statement "the transfinite cannot be traversed in successive steps" has been shown to be true. That's the issue at the center of all those "infinite past" threads we struggled through.daveS
December 17, 2017
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DaveS @ 29
1) Suppose you already have an iPad, and you tell me that KF gave it to you. KF got it from someone else, &c. ad infinitum. 2) Suppose you want an iPad, and you ask KF. He asks someone else, &c. ad infinitum. (That’s what you desribed above). I don’t see that 1) is logically impossible, in any case.
I take it that you do hold that 2) is logically impossible. If so, it is likely that you agree with KF's
The transfinite cannot be traversed in successive steps.
The IPad in 2) would never come into existence. We would see an endless row of people, each requesting an IPad from the person before her/him. No one would have an IPad, everyone is waiting for someone else to give it. IOWs 2) is not an 'IPad-producing-process.' An IPad does not come into existence by a world solely inhabited by people who do not have one but want to get one from someone else. Let's look at 1) again:
1) Suppose you already have an iPad, and you tell me that KF gave it to you. KF got it from someone else, &c. ad infinitum.
This is logically impossible, since you offer the scenario in 2) as an explanation for you having an IPad, but, as has been argued, 2) cannot be the explanation for you having an IPad.Origenes
December 17, 2017
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tgpeeler, You can't deduce much starting with those two premises. Here's how I understand them: 1) For some X, X exists. 2) For every X, either X exists or X cannot cause or create anything. Both appear to me to be consistent with the existence of an infinite regress of contingent beings.daveS
December 17, 2017
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daveS - The premises in my argument are two. 1. Things exist. 2. Unless something exists, it cannot create or cause something. What more do I need? As far as who gave theists sole right to "infinite being" and "eternality" etc... I guess nobody did. We just use those ideas coherently.tgpeeler
December 17, 2017
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DS, pardon, but that is the typical way it is referred to -- to dismiss. That's why I took time to point to a weak and patently unobjectionable form that invites us to look at the logic of being. In that context JAD is correct to say existence of a contingent being is not self-explanatory as it depends on what I have termed on/off external enabling factors (as necessary causal factors is ambiguous). KFkairosfocus
December 17, 2017
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JAD,
Also notice that for the atheist to argue that only contingent things exist he must smuggle in, or coopt, some theological concepts: infinite being, eternality and transcendence.
I for one, would not hesitate to shamelessly steal concepts from other worldviews, provided this doesn't result in a glaring inconsistency. That said, who gave theists sole rights to "infinite being" and "eternality"? Even "transcendence", for that matter?daveS
December 17, 2017
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Earlier at #9 I wrote:
“If a necessary being exists it cannot be contingent. If it is even logically possible for the universe to be contingent how can we claim that it is necessary? In other words, if it is logically possible for the universe to be contingent then it cannot be logically necessary for it to be ontologically necessary. If a transcendent necessary being exists then it is logically necessary that it is ontologically necessary.”
Or in terms of the PSR: If the universe is contingent (it had a beginning in space and time) then it lacks a sufficient reason for its own existence. Invoking the so-called multiverse does not solve this problem because a collection of contingent things, even a larger or infinite collection of contingent things is not sufficient to explain its own existence. That was Leibniz’s point. Also notice that for the atheist to argue that only contingent things exist he must smuggle in, or coopt, some theological concepts: infinite being, eternality and transcendence. For example, in invoking the multiverse is an attempt to bring in an outside transcendent cause. Furthermore, it’s a purely metaphysical argument that is neither self-evidently true nor scientifically provable. Even if we are someday in the far distant future we are able to create artificial wormholes, as Kip Thorne suggest in his book, Black Holes & Time Warps, which he argues could theoretically tunnel through into another universe, how would we know that we are really in another universe? How could we ever know that there are an infinite number of other universes? In other words, are we supposed to accept (believe) the idea of the multiverse on faith? So then it appears that the claim that atheistic naturalism/materialism is more reasonable than theism is just so much pretension and posturing. Furthermore, why are we as a species "hardwired" to ask these kind of questions? Why do we feel so compelled to explain our own existence?john_a_designer
December 17, 2017
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KF, I'm not "trotting out PSR" as an excuse to set aside the matter. I'm just saying that I think tgpeeler has to invoke it or something like it to arrive at a valid argument.daveS
December 17, 2017
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DS, I think I should comment on the PSR. Take as a weak form, that of any entity or candidate entity A, we may freely inquire as to why it is, or is not, or is impossible. This is patently unobjectionable. Now, some answers. Some things are not as they are impossible of being, there being a mutual contradiction of core characteristics connected to A having a distinct identity as itself. There can be no square circles. Other things may be in some possible world, some possible, reasonably completely describable state of affairs. Such are possible beings. Of these, some could exist in some world say Wi but in a neighbouring one Wj, they would not, This is because, there is in Wj some on/off enabling causal factor for A that is in the off state, but in Wi, it and all other similarly enabling factors are on, and there is cumulatively a sufficient circumstance for A to be. A, e.g. a fire, is caused. Others, are such that there is no possible world in which they will not exist. Such as, distinct identity and thus two-ness. Such a case would be independent of on/off enabling causal factors, and in addition would have to be possible. Thus, we see that a necessary being is without cause and a serious candidate will either be impossible or else actual. That is best understood as being due to such necessary beings being part of the framework for any possible world to be. So, there will be a good and in my view sufficient reason behind anything that is, or is not, or cannot be. Simply trotting out PSR and by implication the objections that have been made, is not sufficient to set aside a matter. At least, once we have looked at the logic of being. KFkairosfocus
December 17, 2017
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Origenes, Yes, he's invoking some form of the principle of sufficient reason there.daveS
December 15, 2017
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DaveS The Leibniz quote in #32 by john_a_designer is about your scenario. Did you notice? In his example there are no IPads but, instead, books are copied. Leibniz' conclusion:
... we can never arrive at a complete reason, no matter how many books we may assume in the past, for one can always wonder why such books should have existed at all times; why there should be books at all, and why they should be written in this way.
Origenes
December 15, 2017
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KF, Yes, I was using "vacuum" as a figure of speech here, not using the term literally. I'll be interested to see what tgpeeler says.daveS
December 15, 2017
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DS, a vacuum is not non-being. KF PS: The problems with infinite regress are pointed out above in brief and have been discussed many times. You cannot traverse a transfinite span in finite stage successive steps. The latter can never count up to the transfinite. An actually infinite past would require this, not just word games on at any point the infinite has already been traversed. As to the chain of present supportive causes, the point is, an infinite depth of the contingent does not amount to necessary being. Of course, one can blandly assert and cling to the opposite if s/he wishes.kairosfocus
December 15, 2017
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What I call the ontological ladder above @ #32 Ed Feser terms “an essential series of causes” (vs. “an accidental series of causes.”) I briefly discuss his argument (actually Aquinas’ argument) here: https://uncommondescent.com/philosophy/philosopher-ed-feser-offers-some-fun-richard-dawkins-vs-thomas-aquinas/#comment-643349 Also see #5 on that thread. And then take a look at this interview where Feser very clearly and succinctly lays out his argument: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3BXJVjwKI He seems to do a much better job IMO when he is discussing his argument casually and extemporaneously.john_a_designer
December 15, 2017
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