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God as a necessary, maximally great, endless being vs. the challenge to an actual infinity

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In a recent thread, the Kalam Cosmological argument family was challenged on the issue: can an actual infinity exist? If not (presumably due to Hilbert’s Hotel-like absurdities), then God could not be an infinite being as such is impossible of being.

A thread of discussion developed, and I thought a summary intervention may be helpful. On further thought, perhaps it should be headlined:

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KF, 12: >> I think several themes are worth highlighting.

It can be discussed that non-being, true nothingness cannot be a causal source. Were there ever utter nothing, such would therefore forever obtain. There would be no world.But, manifestly, there is a world.

So, we must ponder the logic of being, at least in a nutshell.

Candidates to being may be such that core characteristics central to identity stand in mutual contradiction such as those of a square circle. Such are impossible of being. And, we see principles of distinct identity necessarily embedded from the outset, especially that truths must be all so together so X and Y where Y = ~ X is not a possible state of affairs. If something could exist in a possible world were it actualised as a state of affairs, it is a possible being.

Of these, some Z can be in at least one possible world Wi, but not in another “neighbouring” one, Wj — contingent beings. The difference Wi – Wj will contain some unmet on-off enabling circumstance for Z . . . a necessary causal condition or factor for Z, say C. If Z is a fire, it requires heat, fuel, oxidiser and an uninterfered-with combustion chain reaction (cf. how Halon extinguishers work).

By contrast, we can see a being N that has no dependence on any such C, which will be in any and all possible worlds. That is, N is a necessary being and will be part of the common framework for any world W to exist. For example, distinct identity (A vs ~A) entails that two-ness and so also the endless set of naturals, must exist. [Beyond which lie the transfinites and the surreals as illustrated.] And, without necessary causal factors C, such has no beginning or end. Given that a world exists, at least one being N must be necessary. (Theists, classically hold that things like numbers are eternally contemplated by God, for instance.)

Any given case Ni is eternal, causeless, framework for any possible world, enabling and structuring it in some way. Notice, eternality not infinity, has been asserted, on the strength that for some W to be, some N must be as key to its framework. We readily see this for two-ness etc.

Such is strange to our ears, maybe, but that is a fault of our education not the logic.

Now too, our world is one of finite stage causal succession as we can see from succession of generations. But it is dubious for such to have existed to the infinitely — endlessly — remote past, as to succeed from some stage s_k to s_k+1, s_k+2 etc is equivalent to a counting succession 0,1,2 . . . which succeeds without limit but in an instance will be such that some later s_p to s_p+1, s_p+2 etc can again be matched 1:1 with 0,1,2 . . . thus showing that a transfinite span, credibly, cannot be traversed in finite-stage successive, cumulative steps. Thus if we are at a now, no S_k is transfinitely remote, even beyond say a big bang at 13.8 BYA. Our world W_a is credibly not some Ni, and has a beginning. It has a cause, a capable, sufficient one.

Where, we exist therein as responsibly and rationally free, morally governed creatures. This constrains the N_a that is at the world-root. For, post Hume et al, only at that level can the IS-OUGHT gap be soundly bridged. And we all know that after centuries of debate, only one serious candidate stands — just put up a viable alternative if you think you can. Good luck with that: ______ (Predictably, a fail.)

This is: the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; worthy of loyalty and of the reasonable, responsible service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature.

But, what about, God is infinite?

I suggest, this first means that God is not externally limited or weakened so that he can be defeated or utterly frustrated in his purposes. Which, is among other things a way of saying that God is not evil, that being the privation, frustration or perversion of good capabilities out of their proper end.

God is also eternal and indestructible, as he has no dependence on external, on/off enabling causal factors. Thus, his being is without beginning or end, endless. This, being a characteristic of necessary being, which is required once a world is.

So, I think we need to reflect on what sense is meant when it is suggested that an actual infinity is impossible of being, and what are its strengths and limitations. For sure, an endless past of finite stage causal succession seems impossible and a physical, materially based infinite quantity is also dubious. But, the transfinite set of natural numbers and beyond the surreals great and small all seem necessary — framework to any world. Which in turn suggests mind capable of such a contemplation.

And more.>>

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Food for thought. END

Comments
So, the way I see it, God made the finite for us to live in. A wondrous miracle to ponder this Advent, as He came to dwell with us in it, also. Andrewasauber
December 15, 2017
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KF @20 Makes perfect sense. I think we are in agreement.Origenes
December 15, 2017
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If God is an actual infinity, are humans also actual infinities? The human mind can generate an unbounded amount of novel information, given unlimited resources. Does this denote an infinite source of information, or the creation of new information?EricMH
December 15, 2017
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Why couldn’t there be an “infinite regress” of beings?
Because context is removed. There's no here or there in an infinity. There's no now vs. then. There are no relationships because there's no context anymore. There has to be finite context. If you try to insert finite things in an infinite context you are just mixing two incompatible ideas together. Illogical, the saying goes. Andrewasauber
December 15, 2017
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"Yes, and as an example of His omniscience, God knows every digit in the decimal expansion of ?. I don’t know how ME or anyone could deny that implies God is infinite." Its actually quite easy Dave...when you stop thinking of it in human terms. God does not access a knowledge of decimal expansion of anything. He determines what it is. there are no infinite possibilities "out there". there are no possibilities till he determines them. KF is wrong. God can create a square circle if he wishes. there are no inherently contradictory core characteristics with it because God determines whats inherent to ANY construct. If tomorrow God determines that a square is a circle then that will be what it is (even if it requires several more dimensions). God is a Spirit - shape , size dimensions. angles (all which determine whats a circle and whats a square) are all his creations that he created by command where none existed before. So he solely determines the bounds of contradictions because he is the only true bound. Is very hard for us to grasp a being that completely exists to himself and from which ALL things flow including knowledge, time and physical dimensions. We are used to and surrounded by things that are not ours that we have to access or modify or that hinder us. So God is not sitting in heaven accessing an infinite storage of the expansion of any human mathematical term so he can give you an answer he draws from his memory. He is above and beyond that. he'll tell you once what it is and that will be what it is. This is what the old theologians used to understand of God in the word Sovereign. Nothing exists outside of himself and his decree not even the placement of a decimal God IS limited....... by and to himself. he will never go outside of himself, think a different thought that is not not his, learn anything new. he will never access any more power than he already has because power does not exist that he does not now already hold. he cannot lie, he cannot become evil and he cannot change - all limits but great ones to have. To put it more succinctly God does not possess infinite power. He is power. The only power that ultimately exists. So its meaningless to talk about infinitely powerful when there is only one power and its defined by the authority of one entity. Its not meaningless to say all powerful because it highlights he has it all - no one else has any real power. God is all about authority and all authority is not infinite. its set at one unchangeable constant - all.mikeenders
December 15, 2017
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tgpeeler, Cross-posted there. To answer your #36, no, I don't see that your argument is valid (without adding more premises). Why couldn't there be an "infinite regress" of beings? (I don't like that term, but it'll have to do, I guess). In that case, there would always be "subsequent" beings, but no first being.daveS
December 15, 2017
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tgpeeler, I think I understand contingent and necessary beings well enough. The contingent beings I'm referring to all depend on some other being for their existence, so they fit the definition. Unless you add some more premises (such as the principle of sufficient reason), I don't see how you can show that the existence of contingent beings implies the existence of necessary beings.daveS
December 15, 2017
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There has to be a first being. Here's the argument for that. If there was no first being, there would be no subsequent beings. (Agreed? If not, you are claiming that nothing has the power to create.) But there are subsequent beings. Therefore, there WAS a first being. The first being can't be preceded or caused by another being because then it would not be FIRST. But there is a FIRST being. An uncaused being. An eternal being. A necessary being. A changeless being. A timeless being. Do you see this?tgpeeler
December 15, 2017
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You can only imagine (if the infinite regress is assumed to be coherent) that you can have an infinite series of contingent beings but once you rationally dissect the idea you see that it is, in fact, incoherent. To say that you can have contingent beings without a necessary being is like saying you can have square circles. Once you understand what contingent means and what necessary means then you know.tgpeeler
December 15, 2017
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tgpeeler
I am not clear on what your objection is to this line of reasoning. In scenario 1 no one has an iPad. Thus I couldn’t possibly have one either.
Maybe the numbering of our scenarios conflict. In my scenario 1, there is an iPad that has been passed down through an "infinite regress", so everyone has one.
All beings cannot be contingent because all contingent beings at one time did not exist (this includes the universe, by the way) and it takes existence (an efficient cause) to bring something into existence. If you have no necessary existence then you have no existence at all.
Well, I thought we were assuming that infinite regress was coherent, for the moment? In that case, I have in mind an infinite regress of contingent beings, each giving existence to its successor. There is no "bringing something into existence" from a vacuum. Every being is brought into existence by its predecessor.daveS
December 15, 2017
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I am not clear on what your objection is to this line of reasoning. In scenario 1 no one has an iPad. Thus I couldn't possibly have one either. All beings cannot be contingent because all contingent beings at one time did not exist (this includes the universe, by the way) and it takes existence (an efficient cause) to bring something into existence. If you have no necessary existence then you have no existence at all. Think of it this way. Can you imagine typing on a non-existing keyboard or drinking non-existent water or eating non-existent food? Of course not. The principle we abstract from these (universal to all people) observations (evidence) is that existence precedes causation. No existence - no causation or creation. There has always been existence and it isn't us or the universe. Perhaps this helps.tgpeeler
December 15, 2017
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The 17th century philosopher G. W. Leibniz argued that an appeal infinite regress does not provide a sufficient reason to explain the universe or our existence. Notice this is not merely an appeal to intuition.
For a sufficient reason for existence cannot be found merely in any one individual thing or even in the whole aggregate and series of things. Let us imagine the book on the Elements of Geometry to have been eternal, one copy always being made from another; then it is clear that though we can give a reason for the present book based on the preceding book from which it was copied, we can never arrive at a complete reason, no matter how many books we may assume in the past, for one can always wonder why such books should have existed at all times; why there should be books at all, and why they should be written in this way. What is true of books is true also of the different states of the world; every subsequent state is somehow copied from the preceding one (although according to certain laws of change). No matter how far we may have gone back to earlier states, therefore, we will never discover in them a full reason why there should be a world at all, and why it should be such as it is.3
(3) Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Philosophical Papers and Letters, ed. by Leroy E. Loemker (Kluwer Academic, 1989); p. 486. Using Leibniz’s argument above I think we can conceive of another plausible argument which argues against an infinite regress: an ontologically hierarchical regress rather than a temporal or sequential one. I call it the ontological ladder. The argument begins with the observation that even if we grant, for sake of argument, that an infinite regress of books being copied is possible, the books themselves are insufficient sustain the regress, because a book by itself cannot copy itself. To create a new book requires the existence of things like paper and ink (if it’s being copied by hand) as well the material to bind the book together. Of course, neither are paper and ink etc. sufficient to generate a copy of a book. We need either a conscious agent or a robot to copy the book. If it’s a conscious biological agent then he or she requires a cause as well as habitable world—an earth like planet with the right raw materials to sustain the copyist and provide the materials for book production and some kind technological society in which the copyist can learn to read and write and can manufacture the paper and ink etc. required to create new copies of the book. Even robots, which could theoretically build a copies of themselves could not simply be floating out in space. They also would need the raw materials to copy themselves and the books. So besides the books we needs a lot of other things that need to be explained. Furthermore, we know that people, robots, stars and planets are not the kind of things that have always existed, so we cannot claim that they are the kind of things that in and of themselves necessarily provide us with the complete reason or explanation as to why anything at all exists. But what does? If we continue to climb this ontological ladder, the argument goes, we seem to be moving towards some kind of higher being, a mind or intelligence, which is needed to explain not just the books but also the copying of the books, their material cause etc. Theists would argue only an eternally-existing transcendent mind (God), which avoids an infinite regress, is a sufficient explanation.john_a_designer
December 15, 2017
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tgpeeler, Thanks for the response. However, I don't see that anyone in scenario 1 must have had an iPad without being given one; likewise, I don't see that anyone in the chain of beings must have been a necessary being. Why can't they all be contingent? I think it takes some additional metaphysical assumptions to rule this out.daveS
December 15, 2017
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It's the juxtaposition of the two scenarios that illustrates the point. Scenario 1. I don't have an iPad. I ask an (infinite number of people) for an iPad. None of them have one. That explains why I don't have one still. Scenario 2. I do have an iPad but the question now becomes how did I get it? Scenario 1 fails since if that were true I still wouldn't have an iPad, but I do have one. So... in the second case, someone in the chain MUST HAVE had an iPad to give else I still wouldn't have one. But I do have one. So the explanation is obvious. In the case of being, think of it the same way. My parents were 0 before they became 1s, and their parents, and so on. There has to be a Being in the regress that has being to give without getting it from another (contingent) being. No Being with being to give to every existent means no existents. But there are things. Blah blah blah.tgpeeler
December 15, 2017
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PS to my #28: Here's an illustration of the distinction I have in mind: 1) Suppose you already have an iPad, and you tell me that KF gave it to you. KF got it from someone else, &c. ad infinitum. 2) Suppose you want an iPad, and you ask KF. He asks someone else, &c. ad infinitum. (That's what you desribed above). I don't see that 1) is logically impossible, in any case.daveS
December 15, 2017
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tgpeeler, Isn't there a difference between the two scenarios you describe? In the iPad example, no one has an iPad, so it's impossible for you to get one that way. In the previous example, presumably each being in the chain can give being to the next. For example, a parent can give being to a child. I don't see that the two scenarios are parallel at all.daveS
December 15, 2017
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Concerning the possibility of an infinite regress being able to explain anything (granting for the moment that an infinite regress is even coherent). Let contingent (or possible) being = 0. Let actual being = 1. Contingent being (0) needs to be explained by prior being (1) since it is nothing before it becomes something (it is still only possible). But this means that somewhere in the regress there must be a 1. In other words, an infinite regress of 0s will always be 0. There will be no being without a 1 (necessary being) to terminate the regress. So even if I granted the possibility of an infinite regress it still explains nothing. An infinity of 0s still leaves us with 0. Since there must be a 1, it is by definition not contingent (1 is not equal to 0), thus it is non-contingent, or necessary. (One can take the essence/existence distinction to a being whose essence is existence with this rationale.) Perhaps a concrete example will make this clearer. Suppose I wanted to borrow an iPad from KF but he didn’t have one. Well, KF, being the generous helpful guy he is would offer to borrow one for me from someone else. But that person didn’t have one either. And so on… Could I ever have an iPad in my hands if no one in the regress didn’t have an iPad to give? No. An infinite number of people without iPads would be of no help to the one who needed an iPad. It is the same way with being. There must be a being in the regress who doesn’t get his being from a prior being. A first being. This may be a simpler way to say it: If there was never nothing there would still be nothing. But there is something. So there never was nothing. (Granted the linguistic games of talking about “nothing.”) That is, there has always been something. There is an eternal being. When one “runs the numbers” one gets to an uncaused, immaterial, necessary, immutable, and timeless being. Or God, as we Christians like to say.tgpeeler
December 15, 2017
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ME, As you will see from the just above, I consider that it takes infinite mind to contemplate the panoply of infinite possibilities out there, infinite numbers, infinite possible worlds, and much more . . . note, omniscience.
Yes, and as an example of His omniscience, God knows every digit in the decimal expansion of π. I don't know how ME or anyone could deny that implies God is infinite.daveS
December 15, 2017
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Polistra, I long ago learned the concept, wavicles at the ultramicroscopic level. Light was a classic wave phenomenon, until cavity radiation forced the issue of facing the ultra-violet catastrophe by suggesting an energy penalty for the radiation field: E = hf. Then, five years later, Einstein's Nobel Prize-winning solution of the photoelectric effect: light was always a particle, which he termed the photon. Even vibrations in materials are now regarded as phonons. Then, Thomson's son discovered the wave properties of the electron -- complementing his father's discovery of that particle. Then, in recent times it has been demonstrated that an electron double slit interference experiment works still when we attenuate a beam down to a degree where only one electron at a time is in transit . . . so, wavicle. None of the above is seriously modified by this. If you imagine that superposition of possibilities and Schroedinger's poor cat in a black box imply a breakdown of distinct identity, kindly consider that quantum phenomena and laws are studied and empirically tested through implicit reliance on distinct identity and linked distinct core characteristics. From scratch-marks on chalk boards as the math is set up to observing electron beam interference patterns, we rely on distinct identity. KFkairosfocus
December 15, 2017
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ME, As you will see from the just above, I consider that it takes infinite mind to contemplate the panoply of infinite possibilities out there, infinite numbers, infinite possible worlds, and much more . . . note, omniscience. In addition, by being necessary and eternal, God is endless in existence. he is maximally great -- possesses only great-making properties and such to their maximal degree, with no less-making properties. He is also every where and every when upholding reality from moment to moment and place to place by the word of his power. In him, we live and move and have our being. His limits are, first, those of necessary impossibility, e.g. God cannot create a square circle as such is impossible of being by virtue of containing inherently contradictory core characteristics. Likewise, he is bound by his character and promises/ word: it is impossible for the inherently good God to lie or to otherwise do what is wrong. He has granted a class of creatures the power to be responsibly and rationally free as en-souled, en-conscienced beings with minds of their own; which implies a voluntary restraint in his use of his power, the better to enable a world in which true love is possible -- requiring actual freedom to choose (thus opening up a whole wold of possible goods that would not otherwise obtain). In the Judaeo-Christian tradition, this class embraces us, and possibly several races of what are commonly called angels. It may embrace other creatures in ways we do not understand, or have yet to encounter -- who knows, even within our own galaxy there may be many other races capable of love and of other virtues as a result. KF PS: God as unchanging implies stable essential, core characteristics, so that God is utterly reliable. His word is given and it will not return to him void.kairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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Seversky, the set of possible worlds would be contemplated in the mind of God, eternally, just like the set of surreal numbers. Which highlights that there are more transfinite numbers, continuum numbers and so on in aggregate than the number of naturals. Thus the mind of God is infinite. KF PS: BTW, some think that we are in effect a species of thought in the mind of God. A sort of giant simulation. I actually think, some worlds are conceptual but not actual, and the best way to see our world is that God chose to implement it physically, though he sustains its every where and every when as well as every one by his power from moment to moment. Absent that enabling presence, poof, gone.kairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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God is not infinite. he is necessarily bounded by who he is in timelesness. He cannot lie . He cannot change and he will never violate his own rules. Everything he does , thinks or says he actuates in his now. There is no past or future in his frame. He created time and process but is without it. Physical based infinities are paradoxical because they express endless increase or change. God does not and cannot increase his strength or even expend energy. It is complete authority with nothing against it. Complete never increases its set at complete for all time. God has no endless reservoir of energy he pulls from. Its just the same never increasing or decreasing or used up authority. You could beat God if he held back using his authority - Beat him in a hand wrestling match or you could even nail him to a cross. We see this misunderstanding of God and his power all the time but most glaringly with the old gotcha question from materialists - "can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift." As if God has the kind of material energy like humans that can be expended so he needs to increase it infinitely. he doesn't. Its all authority. Nothing can disobey or resist and takes no energy as we know it. A stone of any size must obey regardless and with no increase in output from God. Like the centurion in the NT understood - giving a command to one or 200 soldiers is the same. no infinite power - just the same authority. God CREATED the concepts of power and energy we look at in the material world. This is where we miss the boat. material power is drawn from by a process (and time based) and a physical one. Authority is not process based and so there is no drawing from an infinite power. Now if materialism worked without contingent cause, no change and timelessness then it might work as an equal. It would NOT be paradoxical but then again if you have timelessness, no increase and no change materialism dies on the vine and is no longer materialism. Once you realize as Scriptures state - that God does not change I see no issue, God is not infinite in that sense of change or increase in ANYTHING he does in his now.mikeenders
December 14, 2017
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There seems to be no getting away from an infinity of one sort or another, either an infinite multiverse or an eternal God or maybe they're one and the same thing.Seversky
December 14, 2017
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Origines, necessary being is not strictly about creators much less persons. Indeed, that is part of the point on two-ness and distinct identity -- even a free being creating a world (actually, world is bigger than sub cosmos, it is about the overall system of reality) cannot build a world without distinct identity, and would be in the context of being a secondary creator or designer. Moreover, Demiurges are within, not beyond the world. There is a later inference to best explanation argument but that is later and tied to moral government of our rational amimality. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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particles?kairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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The great big problem with this whole argument is that you're stuck on the unnecessary concept of particles. If you think of reality as particles, then you have the Hilbert thing. I doubt that any sophisticated religion thinks of God as built from particles, even if you want to think of "things" as Lego assemblages. But there's no reason to limit this to the "spiritual" side of reality. When you start with waves, the concept of "finite" is impossible and meaningless. You can't count the "pieces" of a wave because it's continuous. Particles are an unnecessary and confusing and contradictory entity. Just think of everything, gods and nongods, as waves. Then the whole problem disappears, along with most other "contradictions" in "physics".polistra
December 14, 2017
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KF: In short, once there is any world, there must be a world-root that is unconditioned on any external on/off causal factors.
Yes there must a foundation to reality and yes there must a cause for the world, but does it follow that they have to be same person? I have no objection of course, but I do not see the compelling logic. Can you please point out which premise you reject? 1. The First Cause creates a free responsible rational independent being. 2. The free being creates a world. 3. The First Cause does not have to be involved in (2).Origenes
December 14, 2017
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Origenes, I am pointing out characteristics of necessary beings as a class and illustrating by way of distinct identity which happens to entail both the first principles or right reason and the natural numbers thence the extensions to the surreals, etc. These things do have causal influence, they constrain what can be e.g. through the logic of structure and quantity, mathematics. I am not saying that number and identity alone cause a world. The further point is, that necessity of being means that something of this character cannot not exist once there is any possible -- coherent -- world whatsoever. Such things are framework to any world existing. This is as distinct from contingent beings that need not exist in any possible world but will exist in some one world at least were it to be actualised, and would not exist in another. I used the further construction that the latter is a neighbouring world with an on/off enabling causal factor in the off position. Think, a fire. Now consider the possibility of candidate beings that have no dependence on any particular on/off factors. Now, perhaps the candidate is like a square circle, it has core proposed characteristics in mutual contradiction and cannot exist in any world whatsoever. But there is a case where a candidate necessary being is possible and exists therefore in at least one world, but as there are no factors that can turn it off, it will exist in any possible world. On inspection we see that such a being fills a bill: it has to be something that is framework to any world whatsoever existing. Distinct identity is a case in point, thus two-ness and numbers plus the principles of reason that are corollaries of distinct identity: LOI, LNC, LEM. In short, once there is any world, there must be a world-root that is unconditioned on any external on/off causal factors. The issue is what fills that bill, especially given that we find ourselves in an actual world and that just to reason together here, we are responsible and rationally free morally governed creatures. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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KF @ I can easily agree that logic must hold in any possible world. Also, I agree that every world must have a cause. Thirdly I agree that reality, as a whole, must have a Foundation. What I do not see is that the necessity of logic takes you to the conclusion that the "Foundation" must create each world and/or must be in each world. Because every world is logical? By what reason is it that only the Foundation can produce logical worlds?Origenes
December 14, 2017
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Origenes, start with distinct identity and two-ness. Contrast a fire. The latter depends on enabling factors as illustrated in the OP, they are used to fight fires. By contrast, no possible world will be such that two-ness does not obtain, as distinct identity is bound up in what it means for a particular world to be. The difference between contingent and necessary possible beings, is there are worlds in which contingent beings would exist and "neighbouring" ones in which they won't. The neighbour is one in which the switch is off -- an enabling causal factor is in the blocking state. Think, spray Halon extinguisher at the base of a fire. But in the case of necessary beings, they exist in any possible world. This means they must be bound up in what it means for a world to exist, hence my framework language. Two-ness,as discussed, is a case in point. That is, this is not just an arbitrary definition plucked out of thin air. Let us start here, to be sure we have a clear view of what necessity of being implies. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2017
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