Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

He said it: Prof Lewontin’s strawman “justification” for imposing a priori materialist censorship on origins science

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Yesterday, in the P Z Myers quote-mining and distortion thread, I happened to cite Lewontin’s infamous 1997 remark in his NYRB article, “Billions and Billions of Demons,” on a priori imposition of materialist censorship on origins science, which reads in the crucial part:

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door.

To my astonishment, I was promptly accused of quote-mining and even academic malpractice, because I omitted the following two sentences, which — strange as it may seem —  some evidently view as justifying the above censoring imposition:

The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

To my mind, instead, these last two sentences are such a sad reflection of bias and ignorance, that their omission is an act of charity to a distinguished professor.

Similar, in fact, to how I also did not refer to the case prof Lewontin also cited, of what we were invited to believe was a “typical fundamentalist”  woman who disbelieved the TV broadcasts of the Moon landing in 1969 on grounds that she could not receive broadcasts from Dallas. By telling contrast, Lewontin somehow omitted to mention that the designer of the Moon rocket, Werner von Braun, was a Bible-believing, Evangelical Christian and Creationist who kept a well-thumbed Gideon Bible in his office.

The second saddest thing in this, is that ever so many now seem to be unaware that:

1: Historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. Newton’s remarks in his General Scholium to his famous work, Principia (which introduces his Laws of Motion and Gravitation), are a classic illustration of this historical fact.

[Let me add an excerpt from the GS: “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]”]

2: As C S Lewis and many other popular as well as technical theological and historical writers point out (cf. here, here and here), in theism, miracles are signs pointing from the ordinary course of the world to the special intervention of God. As such, a world in which miracles happen MUST be a world in which there is an ordinary, predictable day to day course of events — one that is amenable to science, rather than the rationality-sapping chaos Beck and Lewontin imagine.

3: Similarly, one of the major, well-known emphases of theism is our accountability before God as morally governed agents and stewards of our world. Such accountability is only reasonable in a cosmos where choices and actions have reliably predictable consequences. Such a world, again, is one in which science is possible.

4: In light of such facts, it is unsurprising that the leading scientists of the foundational era of modern science  often saw themselves as thinking God’s creative and sustaining thoughts after him.

5: Going beyond that, as Nancy Pearcey rightly pointed out in her 2005 article, “Christianity is a Science-starter, not a Science-stopper”:

Most historians today agree that the main impact Christianity had on the origin and development of modern science was positive.  Far from being a science stopper, it is a science starter . . . .

[T]his should come as no surprise.  After all, modern science arose in one place and one time only: It arose out of medieval Europe, during a period when its intellectual life was thoroughly permeated with a Christian worldview.  Other great cultures, such as the Chinese and the Indian, often developed a higher level of technology and engineering.  But their expertise tended to consist of practical know-how and rules of thumb.  They did not develop what we know as experimental science–testable theories organized into coherent systems.  Science in this sense has appeared only once in history.  As historian Edward Grant writes, “It is indisputable that modern science emerged in the seventeenth century in Western Europe and nowhere else.”[7]. . . .

The church fathers taught that the material world came from the hand of a good Creator, and was thus essentially good.  The result is described by a British philosopher of science, Mary Hesse: “There has never been room in the Hebrew or Christian tradition for the idea that the material world is something to be escaped from, and that work in it is degrading.”  Instead, “Material things are to be used to the glory of God and for the good of man.”[19] Kepler is, once again, a good example.  When he discovered the third law of planetary motion (the orbital period squared is proportional to semi-major axis cubed, or P[superscript 2] = a [superscript 3]), this was for him “an astounding confirmation of a geometer god worthy of worship.  He confessed to being ‘carried away by unutterable rapture at the divine spectacle of heavenly harmony’.”[20] In the biblical worldview, scientific investigation of nature became both a calling and an obligation.  As historian John Hedley Brooke explains, the early scientists “would often argue that God had revealed himself in two books—the book of His words (the Bible) and the book of His works (nature).  As one was under obligation to study the former, so too there was an obligation to study the latter.”[21] The rise of modern science cannot be explained apart from the Christian view of nature as good and worthy of study, which led the early scientists to regard their work as obedience to the cultural mandate to “till the garden”. . . .

Today the majority of historians of science agree with this positive assessment of the impact the Christian worldview had on the rise of science.  Yet even highly educated people remain ignorant of this fact.  Why is that? The answer is that history was founded as a modern discipline by Enlightenment figures such as Voltaire, Gibbon, and Hume who had a very specific agenda: They wanted to discredit Christianity while promoting rationalism.  And they did it by painting the middle ages as the “Dark Ages,” a time of ignorance and superstition.  They crafted a heroic saga in which modern science had to battle fierce opposition and oppression from Church authorities.  Among professional historians, these early accounts are no longer considered reliable sources.  Yet they set the tone for the way history books have been written ever since.  The history of science is often cast as a secular morality tale of enlightenment and progress against the dark forces of religion and superstition. Stark puts it in particularly strong terms: “The ‘Enlightenment’ [was] conceived initially as a propaganda ploy by militant atheists and humanists who attempted to claim credit for the rise of science.”[22] Stark’s comments express a tone of moral outrage that such bad history continues to be perpetuated, even in academic circles.  He himself published an early paper quoting the standards texts, depicting the relationship between Christianity and science as one of constant “warfare.”  He now seems chagrined to learn that, even back then, those stereotypes had already been discarded by professional historians.[23]

Today the warfare image has become a useful tool for politicians and media elites eager to press forward with a secularist agenda . . . [The whole article is well worth the read, here.]

Perhaps, the saddest thing is, even with such correction on the record, many will be so taken in by the myth of the ages-long war of religion attacking science, and by the caricature of the religious as “ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked,” that they will still fail to see that the last two sentences cited from Lewontin above, provide not a justification for materialist censorship on the very definition and methods of science, but instead a further proof of just how ill-instructed, polarising and pernicious such a priori imposition of materialism is.

At the expense of simplicity (and while reserving the right to excerpt from the wider commented quote and using a link back to show the context), I have therefore decided to adjust the commented quotation as follows, to provide a correction on the record:

_____________

>> a key danger of putting materialistic philosophical blinkers on science is that it can easily lead on to the practical establishment of materialistic ideology under false colours of “truth” or the closest practical approximation we can get to it. Where that happens, those who object may then easily find themselves tagged and dismissed as pseudo-scientific (or even fraudulent) opponents of progress, knowledge, right and truth; which can then lead on to very unfair or even unjust treatment at the hands of those who wield power. Therefore, if religious censorship of science (as in part happened to Galileo etc.) was dangerous and unacceptable, materialist censorship must also be equally wrong.

Nor is this danger merely imaginary or a turn-about false accusation, as some would suggest.
For, we may read from Harvard Professor Richard Lewontin’s 1997 New York Review of Books review of the late Cornell Professor Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World, as follows:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people’s heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . .   the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [[i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .
It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen. [Perhaps the second saddest thing is that some actually believe that these last three sentences that express hostility to God and then back it up with a loaded strawman caricature of theism and theists JUSTIFY what has gone on before. As a first correction, accurate history — as opposed to the commonly promoted rationalist myth of the longstanding war of religion against science — documents (cf. here, here and here) that the Judaeo-Christian worldview nurtured and gave crucial impetus to the rise of modern science through its view that God as creator made and sustains an orderly world. Similarly, for miracles — e.g. the resurrection of Jesus — to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary course of the world, there must first be such an ordinary course, one plainly amenable to scientific study. The saddest thing is that many are now so blinded and hostile that, having been corrected, they will STILL think that this justifies the above. But, nothingcan excuse the imposition of a priori materialist censorship on science, which distorts its ability to seek the empirically warranted truth about our world.][[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis added. (NB: The key part of this quote comes after some fairly unfortunate remarks where Mr Lewontin gives the “typical” example — yes, we can spot a subtext — of an ill-informed woman who dismissed the Moon landings on the grounds that she could not pick up Dallas on her TV, much less the Moon. This is little more than a subtle appeal to the ill-tempered sneer at those who dissent from the evolutionary materialist “consensus,” that they are ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked. For telling counter-instance, Werner von Braun, the designer of the rocket that took NASA to the Moon, was an evangelical Christian and a Creationist.  Similarly, when Lewontin cites eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck as declaring that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything, drawing as bottom-line, the inference that [[t]o appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen,” this is a sadly sophomoric distortion. One that fails to understand that, on the Judaeo-Christian theistic view, for miracles to stand out as signs pointing beyond the ordinary, there must first be an ordinary consistently orderly world, one created by the God of order who “sustains all things by his powerful word.” Also, for us to be morally accountable to God — a major theme in theism, the consequences of our actions must be reasonably predictable, i.e. we must live in a consistent, predictably orderly cosmos, one that would be amenable to science. And, historically, it was specifically that theistic confidence in an orderly cosmos governed by a wise and orderly Creator that gave modern science much of its starting impetus from about 1200 to 1700. For instance that is why Newton (a biblical theist), in the General Scholium to his famous work Principia, confidently said “[[t]his most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [[i.e. he accepts the cosmological argument to God] . . . We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [[i.e from his designs] . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [[i.e. necessity does not produce contingency].  All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [[That is, he implicitly rejects chance, Plato’s third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.]” In such a context of order stamped in at creation and sustained through God’s power, for good reason, God may then act into the world in ways that go beyond the ordinary, i.e. miracles are possible but will inevitably be rare and in a context that points to such a higher purpose. For instance, the chief miracle claim of Christian thought, the resurrection of Jesus with 500+ witnesses is presented in the NT as decisive evidence for the truth of the gospel and authentication of God’s plan of redemption. So, since these contextual remarks have been repeatedly cited by objectors as though they prove the above cite is an out of context distortion that improperly makes Lewontin seem irrational in his claims,  they have to be mentioned, and addressed, as some seem to believe that such a disreputable “context” justifies the assertions and attitudes above!)]

Mr Lewontin and a great many other leading scientists and other influential people in our time clearly think that such evolutionary materialist scientism is the closest thing to the “obvious” truth about our world we have or can get. This has now reached to the point where some want to use adherence to this view as a criterion of being “scientific,” which to such minds is equivalent to “rational.”>>

______________

Well did Aristotle warn us in his The Rhetoric, Bk I Ch 2:

. . . persuasion may come through the hearers, when the speech stirs their emotions. Our judgements when we are pleased and friendly are not the same as when we are pained and hostile . . .

So revealing, then, is the Lewontin quote that it is no surprise that several months later, design thinker Philip Johnson, went on corrective record as follows:

For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them “materialists employing science.” And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) “give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose.”
. . . .   The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]

Let us hope the above will sufficiently set the record straight that we can now clear the atmosphere of the miasma of poisonous caricatures of theism and theists, and address the substantial matter, the recovery of an objective understanding of what science is and how it should work. For, nothing can justify such a priori censorship as Lewontin advocates — and many others also (including very important official bodies), e.g. the US National Academy of Science and the US National Science Teacher’s Association.

In that interest, I suggest that we would profit from reflecting on this proposed restoration of the more historically warranted, and epistemologically justifiable understanding of what science should seek to be:

science, at its best, is the unfettered — but ethically and intellectually responsible — progressive, observational evidence-led pursuit of the truth about our world (i.e. an accurate and reliable description and explanation of it), based on:

a: collecting, recording, indexing, collating and reporting accurate, reliable (and where feasible, repeatable) empirical — real-world, on the ground — observations and measurements,

b: inference to best current — thus, always provisionalabductive explanation of the observed facts,

c: thus producing hypotheses, laws, theories and models, using  logical-mathematical analysis, intuition and creative, rational imagination [[including Einstein’s favourite gedankenexperiment, i.e thought experiments],

d: continual empirical testing through further experiments, observations and measurement; and,

e: uncensored but mutually respectful discussion on the merits of fact, alternative assumptions and logic among the informed. (And, especially in wide-ranging areas that cut across traditional dividing lines between fields of study, or on controversial subjects, “the informed” is not to be confused with the eminent members of the guild of scholars and their publicists or popularisers who dominate a particular field at any given time.)

As a result, science enables us to ever more effectively (albeit provisionally) describe, explain, understand, predict and influence or control objects, phenomena and processes in our world.

Let us trust, then, that cooler and wiser heads will now prevail and in the years ahead, science can and will be rescued from ideological censorship and captivity to Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism presented in the name of science, through so-called methodological naturalism.

_______________

CONCLUSION (after a day of intense exchanges):

It seems to me that CD captured the essential problem in the false accusation of quote-mining, as early as comment no 3:

Evolutionists in general absolutely hate it when we use the words of authority figures like Crick and Lewontin against them. So when they say “Stop quote mining” what they actually mean is “Stop quoting!”

Bot is very much mistaken when [in comment no 1, cf below] he claims that Kairosfocus was “concealing the proper context of the quote”. The substantial point – that Lewontin demands an a priori, completely exclusive commitment to materialism – is not altered in any way by the lines that were omitted. What the likes of Bot also need to realise about quoting is that, when quoting, you have to start and end somewhere.

Quoting is an exercise in capturing the essence of the substantial point being made: not reproducing the complete work.

After over 100 further comments, much of it on tangential themes, it is quite evident that this summary still stands. END

_______

F/N: Smoking gun, courtesy Expelled. (HT: News.)

Comments
Sorry, KF. Missed this until now. Looks good. If you feel like changing "well" to "while" it would be perfect. And deleting these editorials, if you can be bothered. Thanks SMScuzzaMan
April 16, 2014
April
04
Apr
16
16
2014
01:06 PM
1
01
06
PM
PDT
ScuzzaMan: Did I get the fix right? KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2014
March
03
Mar
24
24
2014
01:11 AM
1
01
11
AM
PDT
@Driver: You asked;
"How would we even begin to construct a scientific hypothesis about God? What measurable qualities would we look for?"
The God of the Christian Bible said that "even a child is known by his doings" and, in another time, also said "wherefore by their fruits shall ye know them". But to use that as your guide to doing science requires an a priori commitment to creation / the existence of the creator, i.e. God. However, to use naturalism as your guide to doing science, in the exclusory sense of ruling out any but natural explanations a la Lewontin, requires an a prior commitment to the non-existence of God. I like your open-minded statements about this question. I believe the answer is that we leave the question open. That, as scientists, we admit that we cannot answer without resort to predispositions that are themselves not scientific, having no falsifiable component to them. And while many scientists will privately admit this and allow others the right to their own predispositions and related conclusions, these arguments are not really about private matters at all, but about the very public use of very public monies to admit only to one of these predispositions, and to exclude all others. That's really what this ongoing debate is about; some want to pursue truth, well some want to define it for everyone, and force everyone to pay the price of doing so. [--> Did I get the fix right? KF]ScuzzaMan
March 23, 2014
March
03
Mar
23
23
2014
11:21 AM
11
11
21
AM
PDT
“The Divine is not ‘censored’ from science – quite the reverse – to ascribe an effect to the Divine is tantamount to saying: ‘we have come to the end of the causal chain and can go no further’.” Now, Lizzie, that’s just silly. I’m surprised a smart girl like you would let yourself get caught doing such obvious spinning. In the modern age, “the Divine” has indeed been censored from science, just as the Lewontin quotation indicates. This is shown by your own words. “Coming to the end of the causal chain” reflects a view of how science should be done and what science is. And according to this view, science is the pursuit of naturalistic explanations. Modernism equates science with naturalism because it has negated being. In a worldview where nothingness prevails, being is outside of science, or knowledge, for the simple reason that nothingness does not know being . In other words, your worldview dictates your understanding of science. (I assume I don’t need to add that your worldview is not the only one…?) You “censor the Divine” as soon as you embrace nothingness. This is what Lewontin was saying. You cannot afford to let a divine foot in the door because this would undermine the worldview in which you have invested your identity. Thus you find yourself in a position of having to negate any evidence that points to design, no matter how self-evident this evidence might seem to others. Absolute negation (“censoring”) of any and all signs of being is dictated by Nihilism. Unfortunately, microbiology is making Nihilism an increasingly unwieldy proposition. The more science tells us about the inner workings of the cell, which indicate intelligent being, the more the modern proponent of “naturalism” finds himself in a position of having to spin in order to preserve his point of view. And people are starting to notice.allanius
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
12:56 PM
12
12
56
PM
PDT
CanYank, ...agreed!Upright BiPed
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
12:01 PM
12
12
01
PM
PDT
Upright :) I just think that when our suspicions are confirmed we have better ground on which to wage the best possible discussion where people actually learn something as opposed to a back-and-forth akin to Monty Python's argument clinic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9YCannuckianYankee
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
09:52 AM
9
09
52
AM
PDT
A great many of them I have noticed are also posters on markf’s blog, even some of the nicer ones who have come here of late. Haven’t seen Doveton there, but one (or more?) of them do have a way of disguising themselves here sometimes.
It likely makes no difference, but for the record I have never posted on Mark F's blog. Truth be told, I'd never actually read Mark F's blog until I read your comment. Interesting discussion...Doveton
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
09:20 AM
9
09
20
AM
PDT
Cannuck, your post at 209 should be required reading, even though most knew it all along.Upright BiPed
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
09:07 AM
9
09
07
AM
PDT
KF,
In a scien6tific context, knowledge is credibly true, well warranted belief, the standard we routinely act on in serious contexts.
No argument here.
By that standard, we have abundant warrant to know that neither NR nor the undersigned are artifacts of lucky noise.
No we don't. We aren't in a scientific arena here and while I can't speak for you or anyone else, I am exceedingly confident nobody on this blog is doing the proper scientific research on each and every post or code that pops up. Here's the thing - I actually perform ecological research. I know what science is and where it ends. The scientific methodology is quite specific. Reading a blog and deciding that the text doesn't appear to be written by some software or look like lucky noise isn't science no matter what your level of confidence is. So claiming anything about the confidence level of "knowing" something via science doesn't apply to this blog.
But, to sustain a commitment to the denial of the implications of detecting FSCI in life forms and FSCO in the fine tuned design of the cosmos, many are patently willing to reduce themselves to blatant absurdity.
That's all well and good, but doesn't actually address whether the other posts here I see are lucky noise or not.
Sadly, this now seems to include you.
I'm sure it does, but I, for one, am not particularly sad about it.
Please, think again.
I already have...many times in fact. But thank you for your concern.Doveton
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
08:42 AM
8
08
42
AM
PDT
Upright, "Amazing is the number of materialists ideologues who have come to UD and wilfully (not ‘free’ of course) choose to reduce themselves to blather in order dodge the evidence." A great many of them I have noticed are also posters on markf's blog, even some of the nicer ones who have come here of late. Haven't seen Doveton there, but one (or more?) of them do have a way of disguising themselves here sometimes. http://mfinmoderation.wordpress.com/2011/06/09/mathgrrls-csi-thread-cont-3/ The majority of them there do not believe anyone here has provided an answer to MG's initial question. They clearly have an agenda to: 1) See who can get the IDists to capitulate. It's interesting to me that they're beginning to see that MathGrrl's tactics did not work in getting any of us to capitulate (I still can't figure out to what), and then all of a sudden, a newer more agreeable person arrives, Elizabeth (Lizzie) Liddle. I really can't fault her for anything though - she's as genuinely friendly here as she is there, and her questions are certainly more interesting and well thought out - and apparently she's new there as well. But some of them see her as someone who has a new angle here, that will work better than MG's tactics. Frankly, I agree. I'm not sure if she's agreeing to be party to that, but it is interesting that they're beginning to see that reasoned and civil discussion is what we're all about. We welcome it. If there were more Lizzies coming here, the record they cite regarding moderation would be nonexistent. You get an awful lot of information from them simply by reading that blog. They talk about their tactics quite often. 2) Test UD's moderation "policies." I don't think that tactic has worked well for them, and they seem frustrated by that fact, since MG and others have not as yet been 86d as I imagine they fully expected, since they seem to be obsessed every time there's any hint that they've been moderated. It is after all, the name of the blog "In Moderation." 3) Try to get UD supporters and administrators caught in some sort of double standard - such as the whole context and quote mining issue (for that they're talking about this very thread) or the outing issue (VJs recent thread identifying MG). MG/Patrick outed her/himself, and he/she admitted (or rather hinted) as much on that blog - a blog he/she invited us to, so it's really old news. All VJ did was to provide more information based on her/his own mistake. 4) Try to get UD regulars over to their blog (for what purpose, I don't know). However, they have a habit of assuming that when we don't go and post there (as if their blog is all that important), we're avoiding interaction with ID detractors. I kid you not: Pav posted there for days on end, and recently since he hasn't posted, someone there made that charge. I'd like them to tell that to folks like JonathanM who stood up to PZ Meyers in a hostile crowd, and kept a confident smile on his face when PZ asked him if he was ashamed of himself. No that wasn't in an internet forum, but out in public. Such charges are rather weak when one considers the sacrifices ID supporters have had to endure in hostile environments. My advice to anyone here who would think about giving them an audience again, as MG has been given, is to go there (or elsewhere) first and try to identify who exactly we're giving a platform to. Or at least that they show some sort of proof as to who they are. I'm not certain if that's ever been considered here. I think ID opponents should be given opportunities to raise issues of their own in posts/threads of their own. However, I think wisdom calls for knowing exactly who they are prior to granting such opportunities. It's quite relevant, since much of their time is devoted to talking about us; and they're not exactly interested in discussion. They've already made up their minds about ID, and many of them refuse to even read ID books, such as Dr. Dembski's "No Free Lunch," so they can understand CSI. PaV has painstakenly attempted to get several of them to do just that, but they have a groupthink mentality - reminiscent of PZ Meyers, that to actually engage with ID supporters would be to give them illegitimate respectability. Problem is, PZ actually reads some ID books. That particular group is not like the occasional onlooker here who really desires to understand ID, or the professional ID critic, who believes that some ID criticisms of Darwinism are legitimate. They're not interested. Weaknesses of Darwinism do not appear to concern them, which is not in the least surprising. None of what they're doing here is actually engaging the arguments. They have not educated themselves enough on ID to be able to do that, and they refuse to do so. It is refreshing then when one of their own comes here and on prompting decides to do that. I'm talking about Dr. Liddle again with SITC. They don't see themselves as reducing themselves to blather here. They're heroes elsewhere. Our opinion of them doesn't count because to them we're the religious idiot, lying, anti-science underdogs. When they come here and ask questions, such questions are not intended for their own edification, but to trap us so they can earn praise and brownie points on other blogs where our reactions are being watched. That has become quite clear to me from reading such blogs. MG has become somewhat of a hero in the Darwinist blogosphere. Even PZ has mentioned him/her. It's not about issues that they are concerned. They want to trick UD regulars into making mistakes, which they can then use to prove to the world that ID is bunk. It has nothing to do with the arguments, and more to do with perceived weaknesses in the personalities of those making the arguments. They feel that if they can somehow expose human weaknesses in UD regulars, that this says a lot about ID arguments. Everybody has weaknesses. Exposing them says little about the arguments themselves. While exposing tactics like I'm doing here is useful to us in knowing what we're up against, I'm not addressing Darwinism per se. I have no argument in that regard at least in this post. I think UD regulars should know what the agendas are so that when they come across the people I've mentioned, they know how to respond appropriately. I am concerned about open and reasoned civil discussion without underlying agendas. Where it exists, it should be acknowledged, and where there are agendas other than reasoned civil discussion, they should be exposed, so we don't continue to waste time. What I find interesting is that everyone seems to be talking about UD. PZ is talking about UD, some young anti-ID science major and popular blogger in Australia is talking about UD, Panda's Thumb, YouTube, I could go on. Are we that much of a threat? I should hope so.CannuckianYankee
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
08:40 AM
8
08
40
AM
PDT
Doveton: In a scien6tific context, knowledge is credibly true, well warranted belief, the standard we routinely act on in serious contexts. By that standard, we have abundant warrant to know that neither NR nor the undersigned are artifacts of lucky noise. But, to sustain a commitment to the denial of the implications of detecting FSCI in life forms and FSCO in the fine tuned design of the cosmos, many are patently willing to reduce themselves to blatant absurdity. Sadly, this now seems to include you. Please, think again. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
08:06 AM
8
08
06
AM
PDT
Amazing is the number of materialists ideologues who have come to UD and wilfully (not 'free' of course) choose to reduce themselves to blather in order dodge the evidence.Upright BiPed
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
06:33 AM
6
06
33
AM
PDT
KF,
Doveton: Can your posts in this thread be reasonably assigned to lucky noise on the net?
I would say no, but then I don't believe there's anyway for anyone else to actually "know" they aren't.
If so, there is no “you” to respond to, and your comments are moot.
Of course there is a "you" (as in "me") to respond to from your (or other folks') perspectives; the "you" or rather the "Doveton" is merely a set of signals that pop up this site that you either enjoy responding to or you don't. Makes not one hill of beans whether I'm an actual person typing on some computer somewhere, a very sophisticated computer program, lucky noise, or a figment of your imagination. So long as your perception of this "Doveton" and his, her, its messages are something you enjoy (or at the very least want to) write back to, "Doveton's" actual existence is irrelevant - your impression of its existence is all that matters.
If not, you have answered your own question — and the implication of your answers above is that this last is the case.
See above.
Your posts contain functionally specific, complex information and can only be reasonably explained on design by an intelligent poster.
Ok...so in other words, if we can determine some level of FSCI, we can be fairly certain that such is a product of human activity. That makes sense to me.
I do not think you have a serious question. GEM of TKI
Well I do if we are talking about your comment to Neil Rickert in the other thread - more specifically if you are asking if I "know" you are not lucky noise. As Mr. Rickert noted, not only can I not "know" whether the words I see on this board attributed to "Kairosfocus" (or anyone else for that matter) are lucky noise or not, I actually don't care either way so long as our typings appear to generate some context that provide me enjoyment. It is true that I have some level of confidence that this "Kairosfocus" is another human being, but in truth I don't much care about that since I can't actually determine such. This was a long-winded way of pointing out a distinction: can we know that the postings of others on this board are not lucky noise? I don't think so. However, are the postings best explained as being the product of human activity? Yes, I believe they are.Doveton
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
06:02 AM
6
06
02
AM
PDT
UB,
Doveton, oh golly, I am so sorry. When you typed the words – - “What effects can only be explained by invoking the concept of a “designer” – - I took it that you wanted to know what observed physical effects can only be explained by invoking a designer.
That would be a much more accurate rephrasing of what I asked in question 2 above. Note however that this is not the same thing as "what [in general] can only be explained by invoking a designer".
So I cut and pasted those exact words from your post, and placed them into my post, and then answered the question.
Oh...I'm very sorry. Here's what I saw on the screen: "What requires a designer?" Maybe the site rearranged the words you typed, but in any event, those words don't reflect what I wrote. Hence my comments. I do find it interesting that you seem to think that question 1 was not pertinent to question 2 and neglected to address it at all. Maybe if you'd answered that one, you'd have realized that your answer didn't really respond to what I was actually asking.
I now see that I was foolishly mistaken.
I'm glad you understand that now.
It is now abundantly clear that you actually wanted to know what effects can only be explained by “invoking the concept of a designer”.
Yep...odd how this is actually vastly different than "What requires a designer?" I mean, let's be frank - one could in fact answer this question with "car", but such an answer would not actually be appropriate to my question 2 above, don't you agree? I'm very happy to see that we both agree on the difference.
Vastly different. Bravo. ID is false.
Well...that strikes me a different discussion entirely, but then again I'm glad you understand that now too. ;)Doveton
June 23, 2011
June
06
Jun
23
23
2011
05:34 AM
5
05
34
AM
PDT
And besides, Information is a meaningless concept, completely useless, there's no place for it in science, and it sure as heck can't be measured, and we have seen how it can also arise by strictly Darwinian means, so you can't say it's presence can be used as a prediction concerning other instances of Information.Mung
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
06:31 PM
6
06
31
PM
PDT
Doveton: Can your posts in this thread be reasonably assigned to lucky noise on the net? If so, there is no "you" to respond to, and your comments are moot. If not, you have answered your own question -- and the implication of your answers above is that this last is the case. Your posts contain functionally specific, complex information and can only be reasonably explained on design by an intelligent poster. I do not think you have a serious question. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
Doveton, oh golly, I am so sorry. When you typed the words - - "What effects can only be explained by invoking the concept of a “designer” - - I took it that you wanted to know what observed physical effects can only be explained by invoking a designer. So I cut and pasted those exact words from your post, and placed them into my post, and then answered the question. I now see that I was foolishly mistaken. It is now abundantly clear that you actually wanted to know what effects can only be explained by "invoking the concept of a designer". Vastly different. Bravo. ID is false.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
01:57 PM
1
01
57
PM
PDT
UB,
Doveton, science is about evidence, not obfuscation. Demonstrate the definition is false.
Well, since we are engaged in a discussion and not actually engaged in science, your statement above, while true, isn't relevant to my responses. Of course, since I'm not obfuscating the any issue anyway and have actually provided three elaborations on why your response 176 does not address my question, there's nothing further to demonstrate on my part.Doveton
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
UB,
Doveton,
To repeat, the issue is that the definition you’ve provided is question begging in the context of your response at 176 above. Perhaps the fallacy could be eliminated by readdressing your response at 176 rather than focusing on definition of “information”.
Geez man. Take a stock in what you are saying. You asked a question: What requires a designer?
No, that is not what I asked. You might wish to revisit the questions I actually wrote in 173 above. This may, however, explain why your answer doesn't actually address the questions I did ask. Here are my two questions again: 1) How does “designer” provide any sort of utility as an explanation for any effect? 2) What effects can only be explained by invoking the concept of a “designer” and in what way does such provide a model that can be utilized to make predictions about further effects? Your response, "the origin of information", clearly does not address question 1. It might have addressed question 2, but since the definition of information you provided implies a designer already, all you've responded with is, "the origin of designed things can only be explained by the concept "designer". While that may be true, it doesn't actually address question 2; it does not provide any model or utility. Would you care to try again?Doveton
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
01:04 PM
1
01
04
PM
PDT
Doveton,
To repeat, the issue is that the definition you’ve provided is question begging in the context of your response at 176 above. Perhaps the fallacy could be eliminated by readdressing your response at 176 rather than focusing on definition of “information”.
Geez man. Take a stock in what you are saying. You asked a question: What requires a designer? I answered it: The origin of Information You then asked: What’s your definition of information? Again, I answered it. Then you say – Not fair, your definition of information implies a designer. Fallacy!!! Circular!! No duh, Skippy. Does it even penetrate your thought process that to answer your question of what requires a designer is to give an answer that requires a designer? And by responding to the question of what requires a designer with an answer that requires a designer does not make that answer either circular or a fallacy? Hello? Now….one of two rational things can happen. You can either prove that the definition being used is faulty (in which case you’ve shown that the answer is not valid) - or - You can accept that the definition is correct, and that you have been given an answer to the question that you asked.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
H'mm: UB, 176: >> Given that there is only one [ED: observationally verified] origin of Information – regardless of the metaphysics one might wish to accord – there is no viable need to make predictions upon another origin of Information. We don’t predict the next origin of Information, no more so than we predict the next origin of Gravity. >> That is correct, ans it is equally correct that coded information [the relevant type], in the context of its observed source, is uniformly an intentional artifact, whereby symbols, on rules of meaning and a vocabulary, are used to represent a separate reality, on a convention. Conventions reflect choice. So, when we see an instance of a digital code, we are entitled to infer to such a source, unless and until it can be convincingly empirically demonstrated that symbols, conventions of correspondence, meaning and vocabularies can originate by blind chance plus mechanical necessity. That is anotehr way of saying, where is a body of fact7ual evidence that supports a particular best explanation for dFSCI, intelligence. If you want to dispute it, don't go playing at selectively hyperskeptical definitional games, go out and show an empirical counter example. The want of such, and the ubiquity of definitional games, tells us that the evidence is strongly on one side, but the powerful ideological agenda is on another side. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
09:44 AM
9
09
44
AM
PDT
UB,
Doveton, “Designer” is implied in the definition by the use of the terms “representation” and “instantiated”. Well, I am sure we can work this out. #1) Does information exist as a representation of something? Do you have any observations of information that are not representations? #2) Are these represenations instantiated in either matter or energy? Do you have any observations of information that are not instantiated in either matter or energy?
It seems you're missing my point. Whether your (or Dr. Liddle's) definition of "information" is accurate and useful is not the issue for me at this point (hence my noting "No, I merely have to note that your response at 176 did not actually address my original question"). To repeat, the issue is that the definition you've provided is question begging in the context of your response at 176 above. Perhaps the fallacy could be eliminated by readdressing your response at 176 rather than focusing on definition of "information".Doveton
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
09:10 AM
9
09
10
AM
PDT
Doveton, science is about evidence, not obfuscation. Demonstrate the definition is false.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
09:09 AM
9
09
09
AM
PDT
Whether this “information” stuff in the context of your response at 176 actually exists is of no concern to me at this point since currently your definition of this “information” stuff is circular with regard to a designer.
lol. Doveton probably doesn’t accept any definition of anything, for any definition might be used in a question-begging way in an argument. How irrational is that?
Not exactly. In my experience, in situations where definitions can be used in question-begging arguments, one of two things must change - either the definition or the argument. Otherwise the discussion cannot be fruitful. As I noted above, my issue right now is that give the definition of "information", UB's response at 176 becomes scientifically non-viable because the definition in that context is question begging. However, I did not insist that the definition of "information" is the necessary problem there. Redressing the argument might be the more practical course of action, but that's up to UB or whomever else takes up my question of the utility of the explanation "designer".Doveton
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
08:57 AM
8
08
57
AM
PDT
Mung at 191, yeah, I get it. - - - - - - Your definition of trajectory is circular in regards to gravity -- But wait, my definition of trajectory doesn’t even mention gravity ?!?! No, but it may be required, and is therefore has no utility in science!!!! -- But wait, it was a scientist who wrote the definition, and even wrote it to disprove my thesis It doesn't matter, and I can prove it -- But wait, prove it then. No!! -- But wait, why not? Because its circular!! - - - - - - - - Gotta love it.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
08:53 AM
8
08
53
AM
PDT
Doveton,
“Designer” is implied in the definition by the use of the terms “representation” and “instantiated”.
Well, I am sure we can work this out. #1) Does information exist as a representation of something? Do you have any observations of information that are not representations? #2) Are these represenations instantiated in either matter or energy? Do you have any observations of information that are not instantiated in either matter or energy?Upright BiPed
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
08:48 AM
8
08
48
AM
PDT
UB,
Doveton, “…your definition of this “information” stuff is circular with regard to a designer” a) Two-thirds of the definition given for this ‘information stuff’ came from the materialist who wishes to falsify ID, and the form of the definition is totally her own. I only added one aspect to the definition, which was accepted as observationally necessary.
That's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that it's circular with regard to your response at 176.
b) You need to account for the fact that the definition doesn’t mention a “designer”. That is something you added yourself of your own volition.
"Designer" is implied in the definition by the use of the terms "representation" and "instantiated". - – - – -
You have to show that the observations are incorrect.
No, I merely have to note that your response at 176 did not actually address my original question.
My response at 176 was rather simple. You asked: What effects can only be explained by invoking the concept of a “designer”… And I then answered: The origin of Information
Indeed. Given your definition of this "information" stuff, your response at 176 effectively becomes:
designed information
That doesn't actually explain anything since the explanation("designer") is part of your "information" premise (it's "designed"). And round and round it goes... - – - – - –
Regarding your ability to show that the operational definition of information offered by Dr Liddle (with one acceptible addition by me) is false: Can you do that? Oh, I’m quite capable of such, but… No, you can’t. And you won’t. That is the very last thing that will happen.
It is certainly your prerogative to make such declarations. If it pleases you to do so, have at it, but I'm not sure what it gets you since such an opinion does not establish reality.Doveton
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PDT
Whether this “information” stuff in the context of your response at 176 actually exists is of no concern to me at this point since currently your definition of this “information” stuff is circular with regard to a designer.
lol. Doveton probably doesn't accept any definition of anything, for any definition might be used in a question-begging way in an argument. How irrational is that?Mung
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
08:22 AM
8
08
22
AM
PDT
Doveton,
"...your definition of this “information” stuff is circular with regard to a designer"
a) Two-thirds of the definition given for this 'information stuff' came from the materialist who wishes to falsify ID, and the form of the definition is totally her own. I only added one aspect to the definition, which was accepted as observationally necessary. b) You need to account for the fact that the definition doesn't mention a "designer". That is something you added yourself of your own volition. - - - - -
You have to show that the observations are incorrect.
No, I merely have to note that your response at 176 did not actually address my original question.
My response at 176 was rather simple. You asked:
What effects can only be explained by invoking the concept of a “designer”…
And I then answered:
The origin of Information
- - - - - - Regarding your ability to show that the operational definition of information offered by Dr Liddle (with one acceptible addition by me) is false:
Can you do that?
Oh, I’m quite capable of such, but...
No, you can't. And you won't. That is the very last thing that will happen.Upright BiPed
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
08:02 AM
8
08
02
AM
PDT
Upright,
LOL Doveton. I think you’ll need to catch your breath and take another crack at it. I see nowhere in your comment where you actually showed fault with the observation of information.
I'm betting that would be because I did not attempt to do so. Whether this "information" stuff in the context of your response at 176 actually exists is of no concern to me at this point since currently your definition of this "information" stuff is circular with regard to a designer. Until we address that, your response at 176 has no value and we're left with the concept of designer still having no utility as far a science is concerned. My questions 2 and 3 are then moot.
Whining outloud that the observations aren’t fair to materialists who wish to ignore those observations is hardly sufficient.
Never made any such whine, so I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here.
You have to show that the observations are incorrect.
No, I merely have to note that your response at 176 did not actually address my original question. I've done that based on your own definition of this "information" stuff.
Can you do that?
Oh, I'm quite capable of such, but since your response at 176 (given your definition of information) isn't scientifically viable, I have no need to at the moment. Unless and until some actual viable utility is presented for this "designer" explanation, there's no point in my going off on tangents.Doveton
June 22, 2011
June
06
Jun
22
22
2011
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
1 2 3 8

Leave a Reply