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Father Michal Heller, 72, a Polish priest-cosmologist and a onetime associate of Archbishop Karol Wojtyla, the future pope, was named March 12 as the winner of the Templeton Prize.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0801398.htm

In this recent interview came a critique of the intelligent design position as bad theology, akin to the Manichean heresy. Fr. Heller puts forth this rather strange argument as follows:

“They implicitly revive the old manicheistic error postulating the existence of two forces acting against each other: God and an inert matter; in this case, chance and intelligent design.”

Coming from a theologian, this is an astonishing summary of the Manichean heresy. Historically Manichæism is a form of dualism: that good and evil were equal and opposite forces, locked in an eternal struggle. In this distortion, the role of the all-powerful evil is replaced by chance? It is traditional Christian teaching that God forms (i.e. designs) creation. Does this make God the arch-rival of chanciness? It is difficult to see how the intelligent design perspective could possibly be contrary to Catholic teaching. For example, St. Thomas Aquinas speaks in his Summa of God explicitly as the great designer of the creation:

“… the “Spirit of God” Scripture usually means the Holy Ghost, Who is said to “move over the waters,” not, indeed, in bodily shape, but as the craftsman’s will may be said to move over the material to which he intends to give a form.”

The ID point of view is such a minimalist position it is amazing to see the charge of heresy– it simply does not have the philosophical meat necessary to begin to make this kind of theological accusation.

There are some points that Fr. Heller raises that are entirely consistent with an ID point of view:

“There is no opposition here. Within the all-comprising Mind of God what we call chance and random events is well composed into the symphony of creation.” But “God is also the God of chance events,” he said. “From what our point of view is, chance — from God’s point of view, is … his structuring of the universe.”

In this quote, he is basically saying the there is no such thing as fundamental chance, only apparent chance. The apparent noise is really a beautiful tapestry viewed from the wrong side. Of course if there were discernable structure, then we could … well … discern it (this is the whole point of ID). The problem here is that Fr. Heller does not have a self-consistent position that one can argue or agree with, as his next quote shows:

“As an example, Father Heller said, “birth is a chance event, but people ascribe that to God. People have much better theology than adherents of intelligent design. The chance event is just a part of God’s plan.”

Now if I were picking from a list of random events to use as my illustration of chance acting in the world, childbirth would not be one of them. Does he mean the timing of birth, or the act of conception, or the forming of the child? If anything this is an extremely well-choreographed event that has very little to do with chanciness of any flavor. Here he seems to be going back, and saying that chance is real (not just apparent) – but God intends to have it that way. Once again, the ID position can also be reconciled with the existence of fundamental chance, but not fundamental chance as the only thing that exists in the universe.

In this interview, Fr. Heller does not seem to have a sophisticated view of how randomness can work together with intelligence, he also does not seem to have read any books by design advocates – the arguments he makes are directed to nonexistent opponents. For a physicist/theologian that is giving an interview upon the reception of his Templeton award, the only physics/theology that is offered is internally confused, and based on caricatures of the ID argument. My feeling is that if he actually read and considered the ID arguments we might find a kindred spirit.

Comments
So, it could be true or not that everything is designed (I have no opinion on that), but still only a subset of observable entities would exhibit CSI, and allow to infer design.
But does that not lead to a contradiction? If as KF says the cosmos is designed, then logically everything in the cosmos is also designed. I realise you are not saying the cosmos is designed.
In other words, the million times repetition of the string does not seem to have any obvious, specific function in any known context.
Could it not be argued that a set of digits that on the face of it had no obvious, specific function in any known context might later turn out to be the billionth and 10 digits of pi? And so it would have been wrong tionot consider it as CSI (as if the cosmos is designed so is the value of pi). You said
The question if the universe as a whole exhibits CSI is at the base of the fine tuning argument. I personally believe in the fine tuning argument
but having just said
CSI is a property which allows to infer design
I don't see how you can also say RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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RichardFry: Excuse me, but I am afraid I don't understand your points. It should be simple: Many things are designed, but do not display CSI. The principle is not that design implies CSI, but that CSI implies (as its best explanation, not logically) design. Simple designs do not reach the level of CSI, and yet they are designed. CSI is a property which allows to infer design, because it is a type of functional complexity which cannot, in the real world, be generated by other causal principles (necessity, randomness, or a mixture of the two). So, it could be true or not that everything is designed (I have no opinion on that), but still only a subset of observable entities would exhibit CSI, and allow to infer design. The question if the universe as a whole exhibits CSI is at the base of the fine tuning argument. I personally believe in the fine tuning argument, but it is important to understand that it is different under many aspects from the biological information argument, and I believe that the second is even stronger. Let's go to your string "THIS TEXT STRING" repeated a million times. First of all, the substring itself, as kairosfocus has said, is not complex enough to be CSI, although it is functional in the context of english language. It is rather complex indeed, as a simple google search would show, and therefore I would not dismiss the design hypothesis so easily, but we have accepted a conventional limit (Dembski's UPB), and so it will be fair to respect it, although I have always though that it is by far too strict. What can we say of the same string repeated many times? It is simple. The global complexity increases with the repetition, but I think there are two important reasons not to considere that situation as CSI, unless further information is available: 1) The repetition could well be the product of necessity, and therefore we ought to exclude any simple law which can produce the repetition of the originary string. 2) While the originary string is functionally specified, its multiple repetition is not. In other words, the million times repetition of the string does not seem to have any obvious, specific function in any known context. So, we are left with the complexity of the specified substring, which, as already said, does not reach the conventional limit.gpuccio
April 9, 2008
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Mr Focus: Thank you for the detailed answer. However, I would in fact like you to give me an example of an object in the physical world that you would not consider to be designed.
That is, where there is not adequate complexity, the filter will not rule design, but will assign the phenomenon as being best explained by chance.
Would a set of repeating text like "THIS TEXT STRING THIS TEXT STRING", repeated a million times trip the EF as a false negative? I only ask as you appear to be something of a expert user and I'm taking the opportunity to ask a few things I've wondered about for some time.
slight tips one way or the other will lead to a radically different cosmos that cannot support life as we know it.
Yes but it seems everywhere we look we find life where we would not expect to see it. The inside of nuclear reactor walls do a nice line in some kind of moss I believe, and some bacteria live in cracks in ice. and so forth. If would you agree or disagree with the idea that "slight tips one way or the other will lead to a radically different cosmos that cannot support life exactly as we know it but quite possibly could support something that we would recognise as life nonetheless". I mean, I'm not aware of any research that shows that our universe is the only possible one suitable for life. Sure, it might be hospitable but that does not mean it's the only possible variation capable of supporting life. And anyway, you cannot give me an example of an object that is not designed because everything is designed right mr Focus? If the cosmos is designed and/or the rules that make it so then everything else is also designed. Do you consider yourself to be a TE then Mr Focus?
In quantum physics, there is reason to believe that many things are truly, truly — not just apparently — random. In short, we see chance and/or random processes and even unpredictability of deterministic processes in both naturally occurring and known designed systems.
It seems to me this is your escape hatch, if you will. If randomness is possible then you can claim that not everything is designed even in a designed universe right? Even if the laws are desgiend and add up to CSI 500+ bits that leaves room inside for randomness. In fact, I've recently been reading that the randomness in quantum systems can be attributed to determinstic causes. Cutting edge research to be sure, and I've only read a popular version of it in a science magazine but still I don't think the case is closed yet on quantum randomness.
When we see functionally specified complexity, we have reason to reliably infer to design – but not by itself to the identity or techniques of the designer[s] in question.
When don't we see functionally specified complexity in the world? I'd just like to get you on the specific apparant contradiction I see here in that if the cosmos is designed how can anything "under" that not be designed?RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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Jerry: A bit of a correction, if you don't mind. Please read carefully: I spoke specifically to ". . . the more enthusiastic and contentious supporters of evolutionary materialist views"; NOT “evolutionists.” Big difference – i.e. I am not speaking to those who may believe in common descent but rather those who deny that intelligence could have anything to do with origins “from hydrogen to humans” and in certain cases, who have tried to redefine science in a way that question-beggingly builds in their worldview. Also, of course evo mat advocates have no monopoly on closed mindedness. But, kindly look above: do you see evidence that supports that the design thinkers in this thread are [il-]logically equivalent to he sort of challenges I discussed earlier this morning? In particular, I would think that before discussing alleged hidden agendas and logical failings of design thinkers, it would be proper to first address the issues we have raised here on the way the EF in particular works, and also that the way it works is a valid expression of the scientific method, not a matter of question-begging assumptions or attempted syllogistic proofs or proofs in general. In short, I think that in the specific context of this thread and its discussion, there is demonstrably no [il-]logical equivalence between the two sides. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 9, 2008
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Mr Fry: The inference to design based on the Dembski-style explanatory filter is about signs of intelligence in particular case by case phenomena, not about a grand metaphysical view of the cosmos as a whole that can unambiguously assign all phenomena with great reliability to: chance or necessity or agency. [This limitation is generally true of science -- science, properly speaking, builds up from individual cases to broader and broader syntheses. For instance, Newton (per the usual suspect story that probably has a germ of truth in it) started with a falling apple and the moon swinging by in the sky, inferred that the same force of gravitation caused both to fall, checked his numbers, then inferred a theory of universal gravitation.] The EF addresses sources of contingency in specific observed phenomena, by first recognising that where we see a persistent regularity we look for mechanical necessity. (And natural laws seek to explain by trying to summarise the relevant regulartity, as Newton did.) The EF then holds that where we see sufficient complexity [significantly more than about 500- 1000 bits of info storing capacity] and especially functional specification of the particular observed config, the best explanation is design. This criterion is empirically based, and it is credibly reliable when it rules “design” -- i.e. there are no observed counter-examples [and billions of supportive ones] where we directly know the source of the observed FSCI. It is also relevant and significant for our broader view of the origins of many key phenomena; because it highlights the several highly important cases where we see FSCI, and know that humans could not have been the designers. The price the Dembski-style EF pays, is that it is not just conservative on ruling “design” but quite stringent. That is, where there is not adequate complexity, the filter will not rule design, but will assign the phenomenon as being best explained by chance. For instance it will evaluate THIS TEXT STRING as best explained by chance, as it is too short: 128^16 ~ 5.19 *10^33, well within 500 bits. In short, it is prone to false negatives, as the example just shown illustrates. (Oddly enough, the paragraph just above, at 489 characters, is well within the region where the EF will rule design: 2.66 *10^1030 possible ASCII configs.) That means that in the context of our discussion here, the EF will reliably rule design, but will often give a false negative, ruling “chance” where we independently know that “design” is correct. (The REAL problem evolutionary materialism enthusiasts have with the EF here is that it rules design in cases where they most emphatically wish that there be no design.) Now, using a broader criterion, we can look at the observed cosmos and its underlying physics. When we do so, we see some very interesting results as has been mentioned above (and is discussed in brief in my always linked, section D): there are dozens of key parameters in physics that are astonishingly tightly balanced, such that slight tips one way or the other will lead to a radically different cosmos that cannot support life as we know it. I have even taken time to do a bit depth analysis of some of them: in aggregate, there is a LOT of information in these functional parameters. So, the organised complexity of he observed universe leads to the reasonable inference that the physics that underlies the cosmos was likely to have been designed. That would mean that physical reality as we observe it is credibly designed; a view that I happen to accept. But that does not remove chance, unpredictability and randomness from that reality. Indeed, temperature is a measure of the average random energy per degree of freedom of the particles in bodies at molecular scale -- i.e. vibration, rotation, translation. Similarly, set up a factory process to produce say bolts. Tiny variations will inevitably creep in and we see a statistical distribution (often but not always a Gaussian) of the output bolts, the basis for statistical process control and the classic Shewhart quality control chart. The wind tends to obey Weibull distributions -- the bane of wind energy advocates. Toss a die and for all the known Newtonian dynamics at work, eight corners and twelve edges conspire to make it a practical, classic case of a random outcome; as are well-shuffled cards. More broadly, if a deterministic system has in it sensitive dependence on initial conditions, we see the now well-known butterfly effect, whereby the actual outcome at any given moment after enough time has passed will be unpredictable, once the most tiny potential variations in initial conditions may occur. In quantum physics, there is reason to believe that many things are truly, truly -- not just apparently -- random. In short, we see chance and/or random processes and even unpredictability of deterministic processes in both naturally occurring and known designed systems. That may not be neat and tidy, nor is it easily pigeon-hole-able, but that is where it seems to me that the best balance of the case is. And, it still leaves standing the key material issue: we can discern necessity [low contingency] from highly contingent outcomes, which can be explained by chance and/or intelligence. When we see functionally specified complexity, we have reason to reliably infer to design – but not by itself to the identity or techniques of the designer[s] in question. That speaks to certain highly important cases, and that is where we need to focus.. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 9, 2008
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kairosfocus, It is not just evolutionists (I assume you mean Darwinists since ID supports evolution) who have preconditions that do not allow them to accept the truth. There are many who support ID that behave the same way. In fact if someone does not support evolution then they are in the same category. It the mechanism for evolution that is under debate, not evolution itself.jerry
April 9, 2008
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Kairofocus
So, the issue is not whether one may be biased by one’s ideology or core worldview beliefs, but whether one is serious about the truth, even in the teeth of what it may cost.
From what I've read about expelled it features interviews with scientists who have requested that their identities are disguised. Are you really saying that those scientists are not serious about their beliefs? That they are not serious about the truth? I personally think ID needs people to take a stand and proclaim their alligence. After all, while there any many cases featured in "expelled" there are many people who are still in productive emplyoment with their beliefs about ID right out there in the open (Dr Dembski, Behe etc). So, yes, "coming out" about ID may be harmfull to your prospects but can ID make progress if people don't take a stand and come out?RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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oops! inoverse = universe in post 166.RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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kairosfocus, You appear to be a storehouse of esoteric knowedge! Could you inform me as to your opinion regarding what items in the inoverse you would not consider to be designed? I think the inverse case is just as important in this debate as it helps to seperate the debaters and make understanding who is on what side of the fence easier.RichardFry
April 9, 2008
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Gary and all: Just a brief thought about TE and similar critics of ID (including some aspects, only some, of Gary's points). I would like to stress the following: 1) ID has a whole scientific discourse which, through many arguments, all of them scientific, falsifies all post-darwinian theories which attempt to explain biological information without recurring to the design hypothesis. At least, that's what we IDists believe. The core of ID arguments is the existence in biological information of a special kind of information (call it CSI, FSI, or else) which cannot be explained in any way by the said theories and which, in our experience, is also present in human designed artifacts, and practically nowhere else. 2) On the basis of point 1), ID makes the resonable hypothesis of a designer to explain CSI in biological information. If point 1) is true, that is at present the best, and maybe the only, scientific hypothesis to just begin try to explain biological information from a scientific point of biew. 3) On the basis of point 2), many, but not all, IDists make the philosophical (not scientific) hypothesis that the designer could be a God. They also believe (quite reasonably, I think) that such an hypothesis can be also considered a scientific possibility, although no scientific evidence of that is at present compelling. 4) TEs affirm that point 3) is wrong. It is important to understand that critics like Heller's (and in part Gary's) ae based only on philosophical and theological considerations, and so they only address point 3). 5) If the assumption in point 4) were true, point 1) and 2) would still be valid (if ID scientific arguments are accepted, as Gary, for instance, does). In other words, let's admit that TEs are right, and that there are true philosophical reasons to "exclude" (philosophically) that God's action in the world could be scientifically traceable (I think that's also Gary's point, only he does not affirm that as a necessary conclusion, but as an important possibility). Anyway, let's assume, hypothetically, that point (point 4). What does that mean? Only one thing: If point 4) is true, and if points 1) and 2) are both true, the implication is only one: some other designer, and not God, must explain CSI (I am not considering here as scientifically interesting Gary's hypothesis of "unknown laws" fro the reason, abundantly discussed, that it, while logically impeccable, has scarse scientific appeal). In other words, TEs refuse to accept a God-designer as a scientific possibility for the origin of CSI in biological information. So, only two lines of reasoning remain to them: a) Another designer, which cannot be a God, designed biological CSI. or b) All the ID scientific discourse (points 1 and 2) is wrong, and darwinian theories "can" explain biological information. Notably, the position of most TEs is b). I have nothing against that, but I have everything against the fact that they derive their refuse of points 1) and 2) not fron scientific reasoning, but from a (flawed) philosophical reasoning which if fully dependent on a lot of religious assumptions which are anything but universal. In other words, TEs are worse that creationists: they derive scientific conclusions from religious assumtions, which, while acceptable as a purely personal belief, is in no way a correct epistemological position. In other words, TEs should either accept points 1) and 2), and look for some non God designer, to stay consistent with their religious premise, or actively falsify ID's scientific arguments (which is what Miller uneffectively attempts to do, but not what Heller and other "religion-based" TEs do). I really don't know what to say about Gary. His point, as he has explained in detail, is not the same as TE. He accepts points 1) and 2), but gives too much importance (IMO) to the generic possibility of "unknown laws" even after we have tried to explain that ID is about scientifically credible theories, and not about all logical possibilities. Moreover, he insists that Heller's critics of ID, which are essentially of the TE kind, religion based, and completely lacking any scientific substance, are correct. I think he has to decide: either he embraces TE's views like Heller's, and then, if he really continues to accept points 1) and 2), should admit aliens or something similar as his favourite model, or he rejects points 1) and 2) (but he has repeatedly said that he accepts them), or he should dissociate himself from Heller and other TEs, and just retain his correct points about ID not being a logical certainty (which, I hope, we all agree with), but certainly a very good scientific scenario (I would say the best). Just to be clear, I would some up my arguments in a direct question: Gary, if CSI is in bological information, if known laws and randomness at present can in no way explain it, and if a God cannot be the explanation (I don't understand why, but let's pretend it) then: How would you try to scientifically explain CSI? What model would you suggest "at present"? (Please, not the "unknown laws", that's not a scientifically useful model; you can keep that as a logical window, nobody denies that, but it's not a scientifically explanatory model). Who is the designer of biological CSI "in nature"?gpuccio
April 9, 2008
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PS: LNF, this [yrs at 156] may be a good place to begin:
while GG’s view of ID is at odds with some of ID’s self-descriptions, it is not necessarily wrong or uninformed.
A good way to do that would be to cogently address 118 – 121 above, for therein may be found a response point by point to his claims, with links that outline the basics of design thinking. I believe that GG's remarks, as per much of the above, can be shown to be ill-informed, question-begging and strawmannish, starting from his tendency to speak of syllogisms, proofs and assumptions [cf corrections at 142 – 144]. Let GG now show -- if he can -- why he thinks his characterisation is justified on the merits, so much so that we may properly discard and dismiss the sort of self-descriptions of ID thought that have been linked and/or described in outline above. Or, if you can, show us just how his views are correct and aptly informed, as you seem to have claimed that GG's remarks have significant merits. If the dismissal of the self-descriptions cannot be justified, it would be fair comment to conclude that eh dismissal arguments constitute a strawman fallacy. So, to the merits, to the merits we must go.kairosfocus
April 9, 2008
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Jerry (and LNF): First of all, I indeed agree that “Many who come here [to UD] are driven by ideological pre conditions that [do] not allow them to accept the truth or the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence.” Sadly, for instance, these words rather neatly describe the sort of selective hyperskepticism and question begging joined to red herrings, straw men and ad homionems that are all too typically found among the more enthusiastic and contentious supporters of evolutionary materialist views in this blog and elsewhere across the internet. The issue, then, is not so much whether worldview level pre-commitments exist [a point I have long argued, e.g. cf here on the inextricable intertwining of reason and core beliefs in the deep roots of our worldviews], but whether we can rise above them to become intellectually virtuous in the teeth of what it might cost. For instance, above, I was speaking in the explicit context of the parable of Plato's Cave, which is about the duty -- and potential cost [with the sad fate of Socrates in mind] -- of recognising and turning from clever manipulative world-stories to [painfully] discovered truth, in the teeth of powerful institutions and potentially violently oppressive social “consensus” that backs those clever stories. One way to do that, is to keep on asking “why?” while being willing to follow where the answers lead. Thirdly, I was alluding in part to the intellectual virtues approach to epistemology. W. Jay Wood aptly summarises:
Intellectual virtues . . . include character traits such as wisdom, prudence, foresight, understanding, discernment, truthfulness and studiousness, among others. Here too are to be found their opposite vices: folly, obtuseness, gullibility, dishonesty, willful naiveté and vicious curiosity, to name a few. Certain excellences and deficiencies, then, shape our intellectual as well as our moral lives. An epistemology that takes the virtues seriously claims that our ability to lay hold of the truth about important matters turns on more than our IQ or the caliber of school we attend; it also depends on whether we have fostered within ourselves virtuous habits of mind. Our careers as cognitive agents, as persons concerned to lay hold of the truth and pursue other important intellectual goals, will in large measure succeed or fail as we cultivate our intellectual virtues . . . . Careful oversight of our intellectual lives is imperative if we are to think well, and thinking well is an indispensable ingredient in living well . . . only by superintending our cognitive life (the way, for example, we form, defend, maintain, revise, abandon and act on our beliefs about important matters) can we become excellent as thinkers and, ultimately, excellent as persons. If we fail to oversee our intellectual life and cultivate virtue, the likely consequences will be a maimed and stunted mind that thwarts our prospects for living a flourishing life. [Epistemology: Becoming Intellectually Virtuous, (Leicester, UK: Apollos/IVP, 1998), pp. 16 – 17 .]
Perhaps, Paul's version of this on the cusp of the Neronian persecution will help:
. . . you must no longer live as the [ethnoi -- nations] do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. You, however, did not come to know Christ that way. Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness . . . . For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. [Eph 4:17 – 24, 5:8 - 10.]
So, the issue is not whether one may be biased by one's ideology or core worldview beliefs, but whether one is serious about the truth, even in the teeth of what it may cost. And, in our day, plainly, Expelled shows what being serious and honest about the truth on the state of origins science might cost. Especially in a context that is replete with question-begging, historically and philosophically unsound attempted redefinitions to science designed to exclude the possibility of reasonable inference to intelligent action where that is inconvenient for evolutionary materialism, and where those who dare to be different face slander, harassment or outright career destruction. [Think about what that means for someone with a mortgage and a young family to provide for.] As to the idea that “standards of reasonableness are part of the debate that last word is telling on the problem there. For, as we may paraphrase Jefferson [who in turn echoed others all the way back to Plato's Socrates]:
Debate is that wicked art by which we are able to make the worse appear the better case, being therein aided and abetted by rhetoric, the [too often outright deceptive] art of persuasion -- not justification. . .
Even the most radical relativist heeds the traffic light, looks before crossing the street and jumps out of the way if s/he sees a car careering down the road in their direction. So, the issue is whether one is willing to be consistent and coherent in listening to the quiet counsels of logic, evident fact and reasoned discourse; especially when it may be personally costly to heed them. The further issue is whether in dialogue -- note how I have changed the terms -- one is willing to be consistent on standards of evidence and warrant. Thus, the crucial importance of the issue of selective hyperskepticism. I trust that is helpful on the epistemological and cost- of- enlightenment meta issues that lurk on the topic. Can we get back to the topic in the main, while bearing such meta-issues in mind? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 8, 2008
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jerry, excellent point. I'd even go a bit farther and say that all of us are driven to some extent by such "ideological pre conditions." Determining "the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence" ain't easy when standards of reasonableness are part of the debate and when ideology is never absent.larrynormanfan
April 8, 2008
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kairosfocus, you said, "We have morally tinged intellectual duties regarding knowledge and truth.... Duties that go beyond treating persuasion as a game in which one seeks the advantage of one’s side and agenda." and "people can be ignorant of science as a method, or may refuse to accept the deliverances of that method when it cuts across their preferences." I believe that this applies to many here who support ID as well as those who oppose ID wholesale or in parts. Many who come here are driven by ideological pre conditions that not allow them to accept the truth or the most reasonable interpretation of the evidence.jerry
April 8, 2008
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larrynormanfan: Fair enough.StephenB
April 8, 2008
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Amen.Frost122585
April 8, 2008
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DD: You're right -- spilled bottles of wine notwithstanding! Also, at my feet, in the face of one who has already called himself the little KF, I see the NEXT yet generation of design thinkers coming up. We are going to win this one. LNF: Appreciated, and accepted. Frosty: Thanks. Appreciated. Plato and Paul are both awesome thinkers, as is Aristotle! (Let us never forget that all three are great -- and too often under-recognised -- synthesisers.) GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 8, 2008
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Kairos, beautiful post above. Really, I mean that.Frost122585
April 8, 2008
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kairosfocus -- that was a bit rude of me, StephenB, I don't think your position is "rehearsed" -- sorry for giving that impression. You're a pretty sophisticated cat. I was trying to point out that, while GG's view of ID is at odds with some of ID's self-descriptions, it is not necessarily wrong or uninformed.larrynormanfan
April 8, 2008
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KairoFocus, you keep an eye on ol' Frosty. He is going places. :) Seriously, we are already seeing the emergance of the next generation of ID'rs.DeepDesign
April 8, 2008
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Frosty: Your propositions sound rather like those of Plato in his The Laws, Book X. namely:
Ath. . . . we have . . . lighted on a strange doctrine. Cle. What doctrine do you mean? Ath. The wisest of all doctrines, in the opinion of many. Cle. I wish that you would speak plainer. Ath. The doctrine that all things do become, have become, and will become, some by nature, some by art, and some by chance. Cle. Is not that true? Ath. Well, philosophers are probably right; at any rate we may as well follow in their track, and examine what is the meaning of them and their disciples. Cle. By all means. Ath. They say that the greatest and fairest things are the work of nature and of chance, the lesser of art, which, receiving from nature the greater and primeval creations, moulds and fashions all those lesser works which are generally termed artificial . . . . . fire and water, and earth and air, all exist by nature and chance . . . The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them . . . After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only . . . . Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [i.e. mind], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul's kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body? . . . . if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise.
My own worldview level -- as opposed to "scientific" -- response is along the lines of the traditional Christian response to platonic forms: The forms of the world are in the mind of God. (Jn 1, Rom 1 and Col 1 as cited above have something to say to that traditional Christian view.) Having said that, we should not get too carried away with space-time analogies, as time has "time's arrow" and thus a unidirectionality: the heat and general energy distribution of the cosmos degrades over time, in accord with the Clausius insight:
a] Clausius is the founder of the 2nd law, and the first standard example of an isolated system -- one that allows neither energy nor matter to flow in or out -- is instructive, given the "closed" subsystems [i.e. allowing energy to pass in or out] in it: Isol System: | | (A, at Thot) --> d'Q, heat --> (B, at T cold) | | b] Now, we introduce entropy change dS >/= d'Q/T . . . "Eqn" A.1 c] So, dSa >/= -d'Q/Th, and dSb >/= +d'Q/Tc, where Th > Tc d] That is, for system, dStot >/= dSa + dSb >/= 0, as Th > Tc . . . "Eqn" A.2
Now of course I go on to make some arguments from that to the point that FSCI reflects a constraining of matter-energy at the micro level that is utterly unexpected on chance + necessity, but the direct point is there: if we consider the cosmos as a whole an isolated system -- big if -- then its energetic interactions (involving radiation especially at that scale) trend towards irreversible decay. Space simply does not have that sort of property. Beyond that I beg to remind you that sets of propositions that are syllogistically linked together have nothing more in the entailed conclusion than was in the start-point [save for the surprise effect of learning/discovering -- which may well be non-trivial -- what those implications may be]. So, true claims may be seen as the vital ones. Of these, there are tautological ones, true by definition and agreement on terms in the definitions. There are contingently true propositions that we believe based on credible evidence. And, there are self-evident truths that have an experiential component in them but once we understand our experience we see that to deny their truth is t land in absurdity. But in a world in which men are sometimes ignorant and doubtful or deceived and sometimes are guilty of active suppression of unwelcome truth, we are unlikely to be able to get to a conclusion on the issue of design by reference to syllogistic argument. The vital issue lies in the foundational propositions and in how we establish them as trustworthy knowledge. And as the recent exchanges with GG show, people can be ignorant of science as a method, or may refuse to accept the deliverances of that method when it cuts across their preferences. We have morally tinged intellectual duties regarding knowledge and truth, as Paul underscored 2,000 years ago. Duties that go beyond treating persuasion as a game in which one seeks the advantage of one's side and agenda. It is therefore worth looking at his classic statement of that duty (and I think his usage of the imagery of light and darkness reflects in part the classic parable of the Cave, complete with the bit within the ellipsis on the 'god' of this age who blinds men to the truth [i.e it invites a reading in light of the manipulation of the worldviews of the denizens of that cave by hidden agents and actors who enchain the denizens and give them shadow shows for reality]):
2CO 4:2 . . . we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God . . . 6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Let us break the chains of oppression, manipulation, deception and ignorance and let us "step into the sunshine . . ." GEM of TKI PS: I should note that when I once had occasion to teach an intro-level phil course, I began it with the parable of the cave. And, strangely enough at just the right time -- it was an evening class -- there was a power cut and so the students heard the parable with car headlights casting shadows on the wall just above my head through the open windows!kairosfocus
April 8, 2008
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Yeah im saying Locke wrote about the shape of time- of the space of time long before relativity and Godel brought that thought into formal frution. I was just honestly reading it and because I read Godel first it leaped up out at me. I think the shape of time or the idea that time is merely a space is a very interesting issue all in all. This was one of the things I was trying to get at with my comment to Berlinski- I hope you saw me- What i was getting at is that if you take away the concept of time (which may be intutivly misleading) and replace it merely with space you get a differnt sense about nature and design. Here is the beginning of a hypothetical syllogism that I am working out. This is where my though process was during the question I was adressing to David... P1: Matter and energy are interchangeable P2: Nature is comprised of energy and matter and space P3: Human beings are made out of matter P4:Human technology is made of matter P5: Nature produces human beings P6: Nature though human beings designs things P7: Time is a space P8: Human beings design "at the same time" that nature is acting P9:Nature designs through human beings P10:Nature designs P11: Design requires intelligence P12:Nature has intelligence P13:(The world is designed by a nature that has intelligece and therefore) Nature is intelligent C: Therefore, the world or aspects of it are intelligently designed by nature. Once you get to this point you need to build a syllogism that proves that intelligence and design requires "a designer." That would be a bit more tricky. But the point is that if you can get rid of time- then nature and design become one. Inextricably linked. All you have to do then is say that nature is acting as designer with the cell- as a theory- then prove that design requires a designer and your there. Its all just a primative thought.Frost122585
April 8, 2008
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Frosty: Sorry -- I was busyish (as you will see . . .) . Your cite and remarks are indeed interesting. I think though that Locke probably would have been amazed at the view of the cosmos circa 2008. DS also has a very useful tight summary of some BIG issues in cosmology and astrophysics. He reminds us, too, that sometimes the "blunders" of a true genius are profoundly stimulating and even sometimes prescient -- not just their more obscure remarks, as with Locke. The reminder to be intellectually humble is very important. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 8, 2008
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Kairosfocus I wrote you at 122- i hope you read it.- i thought it was really insightful - though largely off topic.Frost122585
April 8, 2008
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Oh I read Einstein's cosmos by Kaku, and know the story of his blunder well. About a month or so back i corresponded with Behe via email and told him that Hubble’s telescope was to cosmology what the microscope was to biology and Darwin's simply view of the blob like cell. I’m just not convinced with the Dark Matter thing. When I was in high school string theory was the big thing and it never made any sense to me why the universe should or would or could be made up of strings. Now physicists have used the concept of invisible mater to fill all the gaps of quantum cosmology which if you read David Berlinski's new book is a very questionable field as far as it tries to paint a picture of "reality." I know that one of the critiques of dark matter theory is as you mentioned a new concept of gravity. I think intuitively that there is something there and more there then might be in dark matter theory. The structure of the universe is much more interesting when thinking about questions like "what keeps the stars apart" or where does the symmetry come from?" The beautiful rotation of the planets? These question have historically been related to the arena of gravity and motion. Not to say that Dark Matter couldn't play a part but I think we are dealing with bigger more fundamental problems then just invisible matter -and that is ironically saying a lot. This is just my opinion Dave and I respect yours. I’m not nearly well versed in physics enough to carry on any such debate. But I don’t think one has to be that mathematically skilled to have a little natural doubt about a theory of everything comprised of tiny strings that wriggle like crazy or a universe fill mostly with invisible matter. Though I promise the next time I fall down some invisible stairs I will seriously reconsider my position on this issue. Either that or the quality of my psychiatrist.Frost122585
April 8, 2008
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frost Dark matter is much more than a mathematical concept. It exhibits all the properties of matter except emission and absorption of photons. It's evidenced by well observed gravitational interaction such as lensing and in keeping spiral galaxies from flying apart when there's not enough visible mass to overcome the angular momentum. It's no insignificant amount either. If the theory of gravity is not profoundly wrong then dark matter must comprise four times the mass of visible matter. There are various candidates for dark matter that would fit within the current framework of physics. Dark energy is really mysterious. Nothing that fits within the current framework of physics can account for it as it manifests as an anti-gravitational force whose effects are detectable only over very, very large distances. The rate of expansion of the universe is accelerating. If gravity as we understand it were the sole force then there can't be any acceleration in expansion - it can only be decelerating. Again, either some form of dark energy exists or our theory of gravity is profoundly mistaken. Since we as yet don't have a quantum theory of gravity, meaning our understanding of gravity is at best incomplete, it could go either way (theory of gravity profoundly wrong or there's a form of energy, or fundamental force, that current physics doesn't describe). It's not just a little dark energy either. Given e=mc^2 if we take the total amount of energy contained in the mass of visible matter then the total amount of dark energy to make the expansion of the universe accelerate at the observed rate is twenty times greater. It basically works out to: visible matter = 5% of the universe dark matter = 20% of the universe dark energy = 75% of the universe Given that all science has a good handle on is 5% of the universe there could be an awful lot of stuff going on in the 95% we don't yet understand - stuff that may be brushed off as "supernatural". The so-called supernatural might very well be a quite natural part of the universe, a part that as of today is invisible to us except through profound gravitational anomalies. The history of science is replete with examples of things once considered supernatural being explained by natural causes. Could the designer of life be hidden in the folds of dark matter and dark energy? You bet. "There's more in heaven and earth, Horatio, than is dreamed of in your philosophy." - W.Shakespeare Scientists need to keep this in mind for the philosophy of science. The so-called fine-tuning problem that plays a prominent role in Cosmological ID is related to the accelerating expansion of the universe. Einstein initially put term called the "cosmological constant" into his general relativity field equation. It was needed to achieve a "stationary" universe. When the universe was subsequently observed to be expanding the cosmological constant was zeroed out. Einstein called it the biggest blunder of his life. As it turns out, it's needed to explain accelerating expansion so it may not have been a blunder at all. Suggested further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_constant DaveScot
April 8, 2008
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PS to GG: I took time out to look back at 119 - 120. I strengthen my apology as your later remarks show me how one from your perspective could easily see a personal direct reference when I in fact actually intended a general one; pardon my clumsy expression. Having noted that, it is fair comment for me to observe that your dismissal as being on points not in contention is on its face, false: in fact had you taken time to read carefully and take on board the corrective remarks therein, you would not have fallen into the logical traps again corrected just above. Let's hope we don't have to go around this circle a THIRD time.kairosfocus
April 8, 2008
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-----larrynormanfan: Frost, I thought post #10 above was quite elegant, and spot on. Responses (starting with StephenB in #15) basically accuse GG of misunderstanding ID. But it’s not so much that he misunderstands ID as that he has a different understanding than the one StephenB offers. The one StephenB offers is ID’s highly rehearsed public face, but that’s not necessarily the only or even most legitimate way to think about ID. What I have offered is a custom-made analysis formed in my own words to meet a specific challenge.I have taken complex principles, simplified them, and expained them in simple language. Many of my observations are original applications. A careful reader would know that. There is nothing rehearsed about it, thank you very much.StephenB
April 8, 2008
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-----garyg: “So your proof that we can identify God’s actions in nature is because DNA-FSCI proves intelligence. Yikes!” Once it has passed through the filter and once the math has been done, we can certainly make an “inference to the best explanation.” Yes, definitely. I notice, by the way, that even after Gpuccio patiently explained to you about the problematic use of the term “proof,” you persist in using it. -----“So your COMPLETE line of reasoning is that I am wrong about our inability to separate God’ action from nature because we can identify God’s action in nature through the presence of complex information which proves intelligence, but not divine intelligence. DOUBLE Yikes!” Of course. We can conclude that the (FSCI) WHICH HAPPENS TO COME from God is present in nature without knowing that God was responsible for it. You haven’t gotten that yet? Suppose a man comes home one day and finds that his house has been ransacked, a situation that indicates the possible presence of FSCI. Now suppose that the police rule out bad weather and other such factors and draw the obvious conclusion that that disordered condition occurred as a result of intelligent agency. Assume further that no one knows that the culprit was the man’s alcoholic brother who needed money for a drink. [A] Did the man’s brother leave FSCI? Yes, of course. [B] Can the police conclude that a crime was committed based on the FSCI? Yes, of course. [C] Can the police use the FSCI to identify the brother as the criminal? No, of course not. This is basic logic. Believe it or not, I take no joy in piling on this way, but I don’t know what else to do. The harder you charge, the harder you will hit the ground when you are flipped. So, stop charging so hard. As Will Rogers once remarked, “It isn’t what we don’t know that kills us; it’s what we know for sure that ain’t so.” We do have a little problem though. You have seriously misrepresented my words once again, and I am beginning to think that reading comprehension is not your only problem. But I will withhold judgment on that matter a little bit longer. -----You write: “And it gets worse, because you go onto claim that your are disproving my point about God, despite the fact that you also claim that the “intelligence” in your proof has nothing to do with God because ID doesn’t deal with God, just intelligence.” I claimed no such thing, nor did I even come close to it. I am going to reproduce the paragraph in question. Let’s search for anything resembling that phrase “HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD.” “Your thesis about our inability to distinguish intelligence from law is demonstrably wrong. Insofar as God exhibits evidence of his intelligence, there is no problem isolating it from his laws. That God is the author of those laws does not prevent us from made the distinction for us through his creative act by separating intelligence from physical laws when he fashioned the world. We didn’t make the distinction, God did. Law manifests itself as ordered regularity and intelligence manifests itself as coded information. We can distinguish one from the other because God left clues in both forms and obviously WANTED BOTH ELEMENTS DISCOVERED. We can detect both by using sciences tools, because both can be measured and analyzed. With regard to isolating the presence of intelligence, we can identify only the fact of its existence, not its source. That means that IF GOD’S INTELLIGENCE IS MANIFEST, we can SOMETIMES discover it in the form of FSCI, but we cannot, from a scientific perspective, attribute it to God. Beyond that, I cannot say anything more. These are the facts.” Not only is that statement not there, there is no word or phrase that could possibly be interpreted that way. Try to rephrase your comment in a more sophisticated manner. This would be a fair translation of what I said. FSCI NEED NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH God. Try to absorb all of the subtleties involved in the design inference. The more you learn about intelligent design, the more you will learn that you theological objections have no meaning. Originally, I was going to take a much harder line. Your irksomely triumphant tone, coupled with your demonstrably poor reasoning, left me with a pretty fat target to shoot at. Even so, I have been moved by the patient and charitable responses by kairosfocus, Gpuccio, EricB, and Frost, and so I will follow their generous example. Also, you are basically alone, and I know that it isn’t easy to play chess with multiple challengers.StephenB
April 8, 2008
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LNF: Really now! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
April 7, 2008
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