Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part I

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In response to an earlier post of mine, DaveScot kindly pointed out this website’s definition of ID. The breadth of the definition invites scepticism: ID is defined as the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. But is there really some single concept of ‘intelligence’ that informs designs that are generated by biological, human, and possibly even mechanical means? Why would anyone think such a thing in the first place? Yet, it is precisely this prospect that makes ID intellectually challenging – for both supporters and opponents.

It’s interesting that not everything is claimed to be intelligently designed. This keeps the phrase ‘intelligent design’ from simply collapsing into ‘design’ by implying a distinction between the intelligence and that on which it acts to produce design. So, then, what exactly is this ‘intelligence’ that stands apart from matter? Well, the most obvious answer historically is a deity who exists in at least a semi-transcendent state. But how can you get any scientific mileage from that?

Enter theodicy, which literally means (in Greek) ‘divine justice’. It is now a field much reduced from its late 17th century heyday. Theodicy exists today as a boutique topic in philosophy and theology, where it’s limited to asking how God could allow so much evil and suffering in the world. But originally the question was expressed much more broadly to encompass issues that are nowadays more naturally taken up by economics, engineering and systems science – and the areas of biology influenced by them: How does the deity optimise, given what it’s trying to achieve (i.e. ideas) and what it’s got to work with (i.e. matter)? This broader version moves into ID territory, a point that has not escaped the notice of theologians who nowadays talk about theodicy.

A good case in point is Christopher Southgate’s The Groaning of Creation, a comprehensive work written from a theistic evolutionary standpoint. Southgate is uneasy about concepts like ‘irreducible complexity’ for being a little too clear about how God operates in nature. The problem with such clarity, of course, is that the more we think we know the divine modus operandi, the more God’s allowance of suffering and evil looks deliberate, which seems to put divine action at odds with our moral scruples. One way out – which was the way taken by the original theodicists – is to say that to think like God is to see evil and suffering as serving a higher good, as the deity’s primary concern is with the large scale and the long term.

Now, a devout person might complain that this whole way of thinking about God is blasphemous, since it presumes that we can get into the mind of God – and once we do, we find a deity who is not especially loveable, since God seems quite willing to sacrifice his creatures for some higher design principle. Not surprisingly, religious thinkers complained about theodicy from day one. In the book I flagged in my last post, The Best of All Possible Worlds, Steven Nadler portrays the priest Antoine Arnauld as the critical foil of the two duelling theodicists, Nicole Malebranche and Gottfried von Leibiniz. Against them, Arnauld repeatedly pointed out that it’s blasphemous to suppose that God operates in what humans recognise as a ‘rational’ fashion. So how, then, could theodicy have acquired such significance among self-avowed Christians in the first place (Malebranche was also a priest) and, more interestingly, how could its mode of argumentation have such long-lasting secular effects, basically in any field concerned with optimisation?

The answer goes back to the question on everyone’s mind here: What constitutes evidence of design? We tend to presume that any evidence of design is, at best, indirect evidence for a designer. But this is not how the original theodicists thought about the matter. They thought we could have direct (albeit perhaps inconclusive) evidence of the designer, too. Why? Well, because the Bible says so. In particular, it says that we humans are created in the image and likeness of God. At the very least, this means that our own and God’s beings overlap in some sense. (For Christians, this is most vividly illustrated in the person of Jesus.) The interesting question, then, is to figure out how much of our own being is divine overlap and how much is simply the regrettable consequence of God’s having to work through material reality to embody the divine ideas ‘in’ – or, put more controversially, ‘as’ — us. Theodicy in its original full-blooded sense took this question as its starting point.

There was some enthusiasm for this way of thinking in the late 17th century. Here are four reasons:

(1) The sheer spread of literacy, connected both to the rise of the printing press and the Protestant Reformation (and those two events connected to each other, in terms of who operated the presses), meant that the Bible came to treated increasingly as instructions for living, as often happens today. So, the claim that we are created in the image and likeness of God was read as a mode of personal address: I am so created. This, of course, broke down the Catholic mode of Christian domination, whereby clerical authorities had modulated the biblical message for the situation at hand – e.g. by telling the faithful to treat certain aspects of the Bible as merely ‘symbolic’ or ‘metaphorical’. Theistic evolutionists routinely resort to this strategy today.

(2) On theological grounds, to deny that we are literally created in the image and likeness of God is itself to court heresy. It comes close to admitting an even worse offence, namely, anthropomorphism. In other words, if we presume that, even in sacred scripture, references to our relationship to God are mere projections, then why take the Bible seriously at all? 19th century secularisation was propelled by just this line of thought, but anti-theodicists like Arnauld who refused to venture into God’s mind could be read that way as well – scepticism masquerading as piety. (Kant also ran into this problem.) In contrast, theodicists appeared to read the Bible as the literal yet fallible word of God. There is scope within Christianity for this middle position because of known problems in crafting the Bible, whose human authorship is never denied (unlike, say, the Qur’an). One extreme result of this mentality was Thomas Jefferson’s attempt to edit the Gospels of all ‘superstitious’ elements, just as a Neo-Darwinist (say, UK geneticist Steve Jones) might re-write Origin of Species to reinstate Darwin’s fundamental principles in a firmer evidence base. To be sure, there is still plenty of room for blasphemy, but at least not for atheism!

(3) Within philosophy, theodicists, despite their disagreements, claimed legitimacy from Descartes, whose ‘cogito ergo sum’ proposed an example of human-divine overlap, namely, humanity’s repetition of how the deity establishes its own existence. After all, creation is necessary only because God originally exists apart from matter, and so needs to make its presence felt in the world through matter. (Isn’t that what the creation stories in Genesis are about?) So too with humans, so Descartes seemed to think. The products of our own re-enactment of divine thought patterns are still discussed in philosophy today as ‘a priori knowledge’. The open question is how much of our knowledge falls under this category, since whatever knowledge we acquire from the senses is clearly tied to our animal natures, which God does not share. But of course, the senses do not operate unadorned. Thus, by distinguishing the sensory and non-sensory aspects of our knowledge, we might infer the reliability of our access to the intelligent designer.

(4) There was also what we now call the ‘Scientific Revolution’, whose calling card was the fruitfulness of mechanical models for fathoming the natural world. A striking case in point was Galileo’s re-fashioning of a toy, the telescope, into an instrument of astronomical discovery. This contributed to the sense that our spontaneous displays of invention and ingenuity also reproduced the divine creative process: We make things that open up the world to understanding and control. This mode of thinking would start to kick in the scientific societies formed around the 18th century’s Industrial Revolution. One such influential society in the British Midlands, the ‘Lunar Society’, has been the subject of a recent popular book by Jenny Uglow.

Theodicy gets off the ground against these four background conditions once a specific mental faculty is proposed as triggering the spark of the divine in the human. This faculty was generally known as intellectual intuition – that is, the capacity to anticipate experience in a systematic and rational fashion. (Here’s a definition of intelligence worth defending.) We would now say the capacity to generate virtual realities that happen to correspond to physical reality, the sort of thing computer simulations do all the time, courtesy of their programmers. In the 17th century, people were especially impressed by the prospect of analytic (aka Cartesian) geometry capturing a rational world-order governed by universal laws of mechanical motion. So far, so good. But clearly something went wrong – what?

Tune in for the next instalment…

Comments
Joseph: Why would they treat it metaphysically? What is your point? As far as I know, they wouldn't and don't. That's my point. Asking a question like the following would be an example of approaching the subject metaphysically: After chance & law what is left besides intelligent agency?R0b
January 9, 2009
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I would add that there is a strong element of Bayesianism, which is anathema to most IDists, in the SETI approach. The project seeks to detect simple, but anomalous, signals that seem more likely to be of technological origin than some other origin. This sort of likelihood comparison is something ID (especially Dembski) has not wanted to touch with a ten-foot stick. If you, DaveScot, can produce a CSI computation for a narrow-band carrier wave originating in deep space, complete with frequentist probability assignment, I would love to see it. Even if you could not produce the required numbers, seeing the details of how would get them would be enormously interesting.Sal Gal
January 9, 2009
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CJYman, This is off-topic, but could you point me to those "Conservation of Information theorems"?Sal Gal
January 9, 2009
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I wrote:
There is no modulation of the carrier wave, and therefore nothing you can consider a pattern. So where’s the fingerprint?
DaveScot responded:
You’re still beating this dead horse? The fingerprint is the transmitter. Because they can’t figure out how law & chance can produce a narrow band CW transmitter it must be artificially constructed by an intelligent agency of some sort.
I gave clear evidence from a SETI source that SETI operates by trying to get into the mind of E.T. There are a gazillion signals radio-astronomers can tell you they have not observed, and do not expect to observe, and SETI is not looking for all of them. The project has decided that it would transmit a particular kind of physically anomalous signal in order to get E.T.'s attention, and is assuming that E.T. will think the same way if he/she/it wants to contact us. This fits ever so neatly with what Steve Fuller has written about trying to get into the mind of God. The empirically observable evidence is the signal, and not the transmitter. Design is detected in the empirical evidence, not the hypothetical source of it. To soften one of the more polite comments you have made to me, Dave, you might want to consider writing that down. We do not know what "filtering" occurs in the "channel," do we Dave? A resistor, a capacitor, and an inductor will give you an electronic bandpass filter. Not much CSI there. (Give me a "duh," D-D-Dave.) A very simple physical system could filter a broadband radio signal originating in deep space, though we have not observed this phenomenon. What makes a narrow-band CW coming from deep space special is not the signal, nor any transmitter you might rush to infer, but SETI's reasoning about the reasoning of a hypothetical extraterrestrial civilization.Sal Gal
January 9, 2009
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Hi CJYman. Marks and Dembski have never, to my knowledge, connected active info with CSI. They've alluded to a connection, but never told us what it is. I would guess that the connection you posit is what they have in mind. So to say that there was no traction in the field is slightly misinformed. When I say no traction, I mean that there is no evidence of anyone other than Marks and Dembski using the concepts, and no publications outside of philosophical works and the popular press.R0b
January 9, 2009
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CJYman: Intelligence needs to be concretely defined, however if SETI can get away with attempting to detect a loosely defined intelligence as a scientific enterprise, then so should ID. SETI is looking for aliens who send narrowband radio or optical burst beacon signals. Most of us would call that behavior "intelligent", and no further definition is required as far as the SETI project is concerned. Dembski's approach to ID, on the other hand, hinges on the metaphysical nature of intelligence. If intelligence is reducible to law+chance, his filter doesn't work. But what does it mean to not be reducible to law+chance? That's a question that the philosophers have been kicking around for centuries. If ID depends on the murky idea of libertarian free will, it's not on very solid scientific footing IMO. Intelligence must be a cause separate from a combination of just law and chance until it can be shown that just law and chance can create a system organized in such a way as to use foresight to accomplish a specified target at better than chance performance. I'm confused about whether we're discussing "intelligence (foresight)" vs. "just law+chance" in the operation of a system or in the production of a system. Until that is shown, it is quite obvious that foresight utilizing systems will cause effects which a set of merely laws and chance absent foresight will not produce. You're assuming that foresight is not reducible to law+chance. That's the assumption I challenge. But, what about those patterns which can be described by both high improbability and functional specificity (not mere regularity) thus ruling out both chance and law respectively as described mathematically? If chance and law cover the entire entropic spectrum, then there is nothing else by definition. (Technically, chance covers the whole spectrum. As Dembski pointed out in both TDI and NFL, regularity is just a special case of chance, just like real numbers are a special case of complex numbers.) I think that intelligence should be defined first (ie: as foresight) and then we can detect it based on its effects as distinct from law and chance *absent* foresight. Again, I challenge the assumption that foresight is not reducible to law and chance.R0b
January 9, 2009
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Sal Gal, I insist on a response because a common contention is that there is no clear cut definition of "intelligence." Sal Gal: "“Ability” of what?" Not sure what you're asking for here. I had mentioned above (probably to Rob) that it would be a functionally specific and highly improbable system -- a combination of law, chance, and information -- which would have the capacity to apply foresight. Sal Gal: "This does nothing to establish intelligence as a non-material cause of material effects. Your definition is orthogonal to the topic of this thread." I never said it had anything to do with material vs. non-material. I have not even responded to any assertion of material vs. non-material. I responded to your assertions re: SETI and ID Theory, so either provide your response or ignore me.CJYman
January 9, 2009
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CJYman, you insist on a response to this:
intelligence (read as “foresight”: the ability to envision a future goal which does not yet exist (model future states) and arrive at that specified and complex state by engineering chance and law to accomplish that goal at better than chance performance).
"Ability" of what? This does nothing to establish intelligence as a non-material cause of material effects. Your definition is orthogonal to the topic of this thread.Sal Gal
January 9, 2009
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Where is the evidence that SETI scientists treat intelligence metaphysically by contrasting it with chance+law or defining it in terms of agency?
Why would they treat it metaphysically? What is your point? When SETI researchers find a signal that matches their criteria, it is understood that neither chance nor law can explain it. That is what the criteria is for. After chance & law what is left besides intelligent agency?Joseph
January 9, 2009
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ID theorists are using intelligence without clear definition.
Again the word "intelligence" was picked ONLY to DIFFERENTIATE btween APPARENT design on one side and OPTIMAL design on the other. It indicates agency involvement- as in nature, operating freely, could not and would not produce the structrure/ object/ event in question.Joseph
January 9, 2009
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Rob: "More significant is the fact that CSI has gained no traction in the relevant fields during its 10+ years of life. That’s why I wouldn’t say that anything based on it is well-founded, which is not to say that CSI is necessarily invalid." My apologies for not being more clear. I meant that it is my personal opinion that CSI and active information themselves are well founded in information theory, especially where NFL Theorems, and Conservation of Information Theorems are concerned. Furthermore, upon looking at the concepts closely, it seems that active information is merely an extension of CSI. IOW, it takes active information to find CSI. A search that requires active information will have a target that can be described in terms of CSI -- either through pre-specification or specification. It is unfortunate that no one has yet built upon CSI itself, although I personally think that it definitely was a springboard into the concept of active information. So to say that there was no traction in the field is slightly misinformed.CJYman
January 9, 2009
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Hello Rob, I see where you are coming from now. For the most part, I think I actually agree with what you are saying, however I do take it a bit further. Rob: "JYman, we probably need to back up a little. SETI is looking for signals that could indicate what we loosely refer to as intelligence." Yes, that is the first problem. Intelligence needs to be concretely defined, however if SETI can get away with attempting to detect a loosely defined intelligence as a scientific enterprise, then so should ID. I do personally think that my defnition of intelligence above in #99 would be a good start for defining what we consider an intelligent system. Rob: "To me, like Sal Gal, it makes more sense to speak of intelligence as a behavioral category than as a substance (material or non), an explanation, a cause, or a mode of explanation." I personally do not view intelligence as a substance. I view it as a type of system. I have discussed this briefly in my above comments. Intelligence must be a cause separate from a combination of just law and chance until it can be shown that just law and chance can create a system organized in such a way as to use foresight to accomplish a specified target at better than chance performance. Until that is shown, it is quite obvious that foresight utilizing systems will cause effects which a set of merely laws and chance absent foresight will not produce. Rob: "Does SETI see intelligence as mutually exclusive to law+chance?" Probably not, but neither do I. Any time that intelligence produces an effect it is the result of law, chance, *plus* foresight (as I have previously defined it). Rob: "If I were to interpret “necessity” and “chance” mathematically, I would say that they’re just entropic extremes of the spectrum of conceivable probability functions, and that their complement is a null set." A simple mathematical description of chance is equated with statistical randomness -- one end of the entropic spectrum. A simple mathematical description of law is algorithmic compressibility or regularities -- the other end of the entropic spectrum. So we are basically on the same page here. But, what about those patterns which can be described by both high improbability and functional specificity (not mere regularity) thus ruling out both chance and law respectively as described mathematically? What if these same types of patterns are also known to be regularly produced by systems which employ foresighted mechanisms and no known false positive exists? Might the organization of the foresight producing system have something to do with it and may we not say that foresight is essential to producing said patterns, as a working hypothesis? This seems quite rational to me and SETI doesn't even go this deep into the mathematics and description of intelligence yet they are deemed science. CJYman: What is the best explanation for this conversation we are having: Law, Chance, or Intelligence (as I have previously defined it above.) Rob: "Yes. I see no reason to believe that intelligence or foresight is mutually exclusive to law+chance. The discussions I’ve seen to that effect are philosophical and have no apparent relevance to SETI’s work." I agree to the extent that law, chance, *plus* intelligence are at work, thus we can detect intelligence (as a mechanism which I have previously defined) based on its effects. Rob: "I think intelligence is typically defined by the effects that it produces, eg a high score on an IQ test." I think that intelligence should be defined first (ie: as foresight) and then we can detect it based on its effects as distinct from law and chance *absent* foresight.CJYman
January 9, 2009
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SETI don't look for any intelligent life, they are looking specifically for intelligent life that is recognisable to us, or to be even more specific, radio signals that appear to match patterns not found anywhere in nature except as a product of human technology. In this sense their attempts at 'design detection' are deliberately non-rigorous but speculative and tentative. Some SETI scientist readily acknowledge that we may already have been receiving signals generated by intelligent life , but in a pattern that is indistinguishable by us from the background 'noise' without appropriate knowledge of the encoding scheme (Something the military always strives for!). There is obviously no point trying to look for something that is currently unrecognisable to you. The optical SETI project is an interesting newer development in that it is attempting to look for laser light emanating from objects in space. There is currently no known mechanism for generating the particular type of light you get from a laser naturally, both from (non-human) living and non living systems. Some SETI scientists made a reasonable assumption that any laser light detected from space could be an indicator of technology. As was the case with the discovery of pulsars though this is not a definitive indicator of intelligence and could just be the discovery of the first natural source of coherent light. In fact there is a parallel effort in astronomy to identify signs of biological life in the universe - in other words life, but not identifiably technological life as compared with humans. The basic idea is to understand what differentiates our planet from others in terms of the passive signals it produces, like its optical signature, and to search for similar signals in other solar systems. In many ways I think SETI got their acronym wrong, it ought to be SETT - Search for Extra Terrestrial Technology.Laminar
January 9, 2009
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"The fingerprint is the transmitter. Because they can’t figure out how law & chance can produce a narrow band CW transmitter it must be artificially constructed by an intelligent agency of some sort." Superb!!! Even if most instances of the word SETI (in at least the intro paragraph) of the SETI Wiki were to be reprinted with the word ID in place, not only would the article still make sense but actually describes ID's intentions pretty damn well. I did up a quick one: "Intelligent Design is the collective name for a number of activities to detect intelligence in biological systems (ie: design detection). The general approach of ID projects is to survey biological systems to detect the existence of an intelligent source. There are great challenges in searching biological systems for design that could be characterized as coming from a intelligent source, but since many of the functions and patterns that incorporate intelligent systems are already well known beforehand, design detection becomes much easier. Still, ID projects intentionally make little assumptions to narrow the search since the chance worshipers believe they have magical evidence of it happening their way, and if not their way some other magical way which must be presently unkown, thus making ID more challenging then thought."ab
January 8, 2009
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Sal Gal There is no modulation of the carrier wave, and therefore nothing you can consider a pattern. So where’s the fingerprint? You're still beating this dead horse? The fingerprint is the transmitter. Because they can't figure out how law & chance can produce a narrow band CW transmitter it must be artificially constructed by an intelligent agency of some sort. Compare this to ID which says that law & chance can't produce a living thing based on DNA so it must be artificially constructed by an intelligent agent of some sort.DaveScot
January 8, 2009
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"The problem for most ID fans is that they have no appreciation for how much more rigorous actual science is than even college textbooks, let alone the popular science literature." What a supercilious patronizing bunch of excrement. I suggest you look at evolutionary biology before you generalize. In the body of work that makes up this science, one's imagination is evidence. The finding are ok most of the time but the conclusions make the Mad Hatter look like a rational genius. Why, because they are constrained by a religious dogma that affects what they can say and not be excommunicated. Oh yes, I do read the scientific literature in some areas for my business and know what classifies as science is often based on one's point of view going in and may miss reality often because of this. Can I say that hard science is often biased or even most often biased. Conway-Morris is the editor of the book I referred you to and not all of the chapters are about intelligence. So I suggest you look to see what it says. Right now I am up to my eye balls with Steve Fuller's recommendations which are just now arriving. It is a shame with your 35 years of experience you could probably impart some useful knowledge here but your main objective seems to be to show what a bunch of rubes we are. Denying that intelligence exists is a non starter. Affirming that there are real problems with defining intelligence is a given. If you took the latter route then a productive discussion could have taken place. But to say that the ability to compose Nessun Dorma or write the Principia is not intelligence makes you look like a crank as opposed to one with lots of experience. You may want to take your discussion to whatever intellectual cul de sac you can find that has someone who wants to discuss your ideas. Oh, I just use a variant of the word intelligence. I apologize for using a non existent concept.jerry
January 8, 2009
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Patrick: Thought I’d interject that Dembski made that very distinction not too long ago. Yes, and I'm having a hard time reconciling his statements in which he explicitly says that they are mutually exclusive with his recent statements, in which he explicitly says that they are not.R0b
January 8, 2009
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Actually the concept of active information as “better than chance performance” and “no free lunch” is found in the information theory literature. Optimization is certainly an active field, although I haven't seen a lot on information theoretical approaches to the NFL theorems. (One person who has published on this is a commenter on this site.) So you're right about that. What I should have said is that the EvoInfo Lab's approach of measuring information as the performance ratio of two different searches isn't in the literature. I wouldn't consider anything based on this to be well-founded (although it may be impeccably correct) until there's evidence that the active info idea is sufficiently fleshed out. I'll be interested to see the reaction to Marks and Dembski's soon-to-be-published paper. As for CSI, it is controversial, however defensible and based on information theory concepts. I disagree with your assessment, but that's not important since I'm hardly an expert. More significant is the fact that CSI has gained no traction in the relevant fields during its 10+ years of life. That's why I wouldn't say that anything based on it is well-founded, which is not to say that CSI is necessarily invalid. Do you wish to discuss them or do you only discuss that which is already widely accepted by big name scientific literature? I'm happy to discuss them anytime, but I doubt that our fellow commenters would appreciate the tangent. Anywhere else would be fine. IOW, why are you even here? To tell us that ID concepts are not being published because ID is automatically ruled out of science a priori? If I were to say such a thing, I certainly couldn't defend it. Do you wish to discuss something? I'm just (hopefully politely) disagreeing with your statement about SETI and law+chance, and that ID is well-founded on CSI and active info.R0b
January 8, 2009
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I see no reason to believe that intelligence or foresight is mutually exclusive to law+chance.
Thought I'd interject that Dembski made that very distinction not too long ago.Patrick
January 8, 2009
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CJYman, we probably need to back up a little. SETI is looking for signals that could indicate what we loosely refer to as intelligence. To me, like Sal Gal, it makes more sense to speak of intelligence as a behavioral category than as a substance (material or non), an explanation, a cause, or a mode of explanation. Does SETI see intelligence as mutually exclusive to law+chance? I know of no evidence for that. If I were to interpret "necessity" and "chance" mathematically, I would say that they're just entropic extremes of the spectrum of conceivable probability functions, and that their complement is a null set. The terms are also used philosophically, but SETI doesn't take a philosophical stance as far as I know. That's my point, and I certainly welcome correction on it. What is the best explanation for this conversation we are having: Law, Chance, or Intelligence (as I have previously defined it above.) Yes. I see no reason to believe that intelligence or foresight is mutually exclusive to law+chance. The discussions I've seen to that effect are philosophical and have no apparent relevance to SETI's work. I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I just think it's important to not impute metaphysical stances to working scientific (albeit possibly futile) projects, like the idea that design is the complement of necessity and chance. Do you think that intelligence can be detected by the effects that it produces? I think intelligence is typically defined by the effects that it produces, eg a high score on an IQ test.R0b
January 8, 2009
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Sal Gal, Just so I know that we aren't playing a semantics game (cause I have no time for that) could you please provide your definition of "pattern."CJYman
January 8, 2009
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Sal Gal: "The problem for most ID fans is that they have no appreciation for how much more rigorous actual science is than even college textbooks, let alone the popular science literature." Eh?!?! Where do you get that from. Oh, and what do you think of the definition I have offered for intelligence in #99.IMO, it sums up quite adequately what most scientists refer to when discussing intelligence -- ie: an AI chess program or robot maneuvering through a maze or a human designing a blueprint or essay.CJYman
January 8, 2009
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Sal Gal: "There is no modulation of the carrier wave, and therefore nothing you can consider a pattern. So where’s the fingerprint?" According to yourself, the specific carrier wave itself is the effect, signal, pattern, whatever you wanna call it that may indicate previous intelligence. Or is that not a reliable indication of previous intelligence? Furthermore, what if SETI did receive CSI (as per "Contact" as previously mentioned) even if they were not looking specifically for CSI -- a message or instructions. Would they not think that was even a more reliable indication of intelligence? Sal Gal: "SETI assumes that E.T. assumes we believe that a carrier wave is necessarily of technological origin." Technological origin? And what does a technological origin point to? Hint: it's the "I" in SETI.CJYman
January 8, 2009
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Rob "The concepts of CSI and active information are nowhere to be found in the information theory literature. I don’t see how that can be considered “well founded”." Actually the concept of active information as "better than chance performance" and "no free lunch" is found in the information theory literature. As for CSI, it is controversial, however defensible and based on information theory concepts. Do you wish to discuss them or do you only discuss that which is already widely accepted by big name scientific literature? IOW, why are you even here? To tell us that ID concepts are not being published because ID is automatically ruled out of science a priori? We already know that. Do you wish to discuss something?CJYman
January 8, 2009
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CJYman: Their expectation is that there is a type of signal that they expect an intelligence to produce that chance and law would not produce. Rob: "Is there any evidence that SETI scientists consider “intelligences” to operate outside of chance and law?" What do you mean by this? Apparently some types of signals are best explained as at least having been "run through a filter of intelligence" as opposed to merely being generated by law and chance. If that weren't the case, then there would be no difference between SETI and Search for Extraterrestrial Law or Chance. Here's a question to put your question in perspective -- What is the best explanation for this conversation we are having: Law, Chance, or Intelligence (as I have previously defined it above.) Furthermore, I think that intelligence can be detected and I don't think that intelligence operates outside of law and chance. Intelligence is composed of a highly specified and improbable organization of law, chance, and information which results in the ability for a system to apply foresight. Do you think that intelligence can be detected by the effects that it produces?CJYman
January 8, 2009
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jerry (103): You might check to see if Conway Morris uses the term intelligence merely to categorize responsiveness in plants, or if he uses it to explain the responsiveness. I'll bet you big cyber-bucks that he calls certain plant behaviors intelligent, and does not tell the reader that plants emit those behaviors because they "have intelligence." He's not going to say that any more than he's going to say that organisms do what they do because they "have life." Vitalism is rightfully defunct. In ID, intelligence creates complex specified information. As Dembski points out in one of his papers, first you have a block of marble, Michelangelo comes along, and then there's David. If that's not creation, then I don't know what is. Michelangelo's non-material intelligence imparts CSI to the marble. Intelligence is Dembski's explanation of the material effect, and Michelangelo evidently has it. ID theorists are using intelligence without clear definition. No, it does not inherit a definition from other sciences. Other sciences use the term, in most cases, to delineate areas of investigation, not to explain phenomena. In other cases, intelligence id defined operationally, and scientists using the term (usually) remember that it is an abstraction of their own concoction, not physical reality. The problem for most ID fans is that they have no appreciation for how much more rigorous actual science is than even college textbooks, let alone the popular science literature.Sal Gal
January 8, 2009
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Joseph: If they do not then how can one tell the difference? And as for “intelligence” that just equals agency involvement. There are things that nature, operating freely can produce and then there are things that require agency involvement to produce. Thank you, Joseph. Back to my question: Where is the evidence that SETI scientists treat intelligence metaphysically by contrasting it with chance+law or defining it in terms of agency?R0b
January 8, 2009
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To my knowledge, SETI offers no scientific definition of intelligence. In some documents, the organization seems to use "extraterrestrial intelligence" and "extraterrestrial civilization" interchangeably. As best I can tell, SETI is looking for anomalous radio signals better explained by technological transmitters than by others.Sal Gal
January 8, 2009
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Actually, SETI does say that the “fingerprints of intelligence” can be detected in a signal. You have just explained their methodology for doing so.
There is no modulation of the carrier wave, and therefore nothing you can consider a pattern. So where's the fingerprint? My point, in the context of the opening article and one Fuller wrote some months back, is that SETI can make headway only by "trying to get into the mind" of an extraterrestrial that would attempt to communicate with us. SETI assumes that E.T. has received radio signals from earth, and is sending a radio signal under the assumption that something on earth has the technology to receive it. SETI assumes that E.T. assumes we believe that a carrier wave is necessarily of technological origin.Sal Gal
January 8, 2009
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And as for "intelligence" that just equals agency involvement. There are things that nature, operating freely can produce and then there are things that require agency involvement to produce.Joseph
January 8, 2009
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