Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part I

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In response to an earlier post of mine, DaveScot kindly pointed out this website’s definition of ID. The breadth of the definition invites scepticism: ID is defined as the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. But is there really some single concept of ‘intelligence’ that informs designs that are generated by biological, human, and possibly even mechanical means? Why would anyone think such a thing in the first place? Yet, it is precisely this prospect that makes ID intellectually challenging – for both supporters and opponents.

It’s interesting that not everything is claimed to be intelligently designed. This keeps the phrase ‘intelligent design’ from simply collapsing into ‘design’ by implying a distinction between the intelligence and that on which it acts to produce design. So, then, what exactly is this ‘intelligence’ that stands apart from matter? Well, the most obvious answer historically is a deity who exists in at least a semi-transcendent state. But how can you get any scientific mileage from that?

Enter theodicy, which literally means (in Greek) ‘divine justice’. It is now a field much reduced from its late 17th century heyday. Theodicy exists today as a boutique topic in philosophy and theology, where it’s limited to asking how God could allow so much evil and suffering in the world. But originally the question was expressed much more broadly to encompass issues that are nowadays more naturally taken up by economics, engineering and systems science – and the areas of biology influenced by them: How does the deity optimise, given what it’s trying to achieve (i.e. ideas) and what it’s got to work with (i.e. matter)? This broader version moves into ID territory, a point that has not escaped the notice of theologians who nowadays talk about theodicy.

A good case in point is Christopher Southgate’s The Groaning of Creation, a comprehensive work written from a theistic evolutionary standpoint. Southgate is uneasy about concepts like ‘irreducible complexity’ for being a little too clear about how God operates in nature. The problem with such clarity, of course, is that the more we think we know the divine modus operandi, the more God’s allowance of suffering and evil looks deliberate, which seems to put divine action at odds with our moral scruples. One way out – which was the way taken by the original theodicists – is to say that to think like God is to see evil and suffering as serving a higher good, as the deity’s primary concern is with the large scale and the long term.

Now, a devout person might complain that this whole way of thinking about God is blasphemous, since it presumes that we can get into the mind of God – and once we do, we find a deity who is not especially loveable, since God seems quite willing to sacrifice his creatures for some higher design principle. Not surprisingly, religious thinkers complained about theodicy from day one. In the book I flagged in my last post, The Best of All Possible Worlds, Steven Nadler portrays the priest Antoine Arnauld as the critical foil of the two duelling theodicists, Nicole Malebranche and Gottfried von Leibiniz. Against them, Arnauld repeatedly pointed out that it’s blasphemous to suppose that God operates in what humans recognise as a ‘rational’ fashion. So how, then, could theodicy have acquired such significance among self-avowed Christians in the first place (Malebranche was also a priest) and, more interestingly, how could its mode of argumentation have such long-lasting secular effects, basically in any field concerned with optimisation?

The answer goes back to the question on everyone’s mind here: What constitutes evidence of design? We tend to presume that any evidence of design is, at best, indirect evidence for a designer. But this is not how the original theodicists thought about the matter. They thought we could have direct (albeit perhaps inconclusive) evidence of the designer, too. Why? Well, because the Bible says so. In particular, it says that we humans are created in the image and likeness of God. At the very least, this means that our own and God’s beings overlap in some sense. (For Christians, this is most vividly illustrated in the person of Jesus.) The interesting question, then, is to figure out how much of our own being is divine overlap and how much is simply the regrettable consequence of God’s having to work through material reality to embody the divine ideas ‘in’ – or, put more controversially, ‘as’ — us. Theodicy in its original full-blooded sense took this question as its starting point.

There was some enthusiasm for this way of thinking in the late 17th century. Here are four reasons:

(1) The sheer spread of literacy, connected both to the rise of the printing press and the Protestant Reformation (and those two events connected to each other, in terms of who operated the presses), meant that the Bible came to treated increasingly as instructions for living, as often happens today. So, the claim that we are created in the image and likeness of God was read as a mode of personal address: I am so created. This, of course, broke down the Catholic mode of Christian domination, whereby clerical authorities had modulated the biblical message for the situation at hand – e.g. by telling the faithful to treat certain aspects of the Bible as merely ‘symbolic’ or ‘metaphorical’. Theistic evolutionists routinely resort to this strategy today.

(2) On theological grounds, to deny that we are literally created in the image and likeness of God is itself to court heresy. It comes close to admitting an even worse offence, namely, anthropomorphism. In other words, if we presume that, even in sacred scripture, references to our relationship to God are mere projections, then why take the Bible seriously at all? 19th century secularisation was propelled by just this line of thought, but anti-theodicists like Arnauld who refused to venture into God’s mind could be read that way as well – scepticism masquerading as piety. (Kant also ran into this problem.) In contrast, theodicists appeared to read the Bible as the literal yet fallible word of God. There is scope within Christianity for this middle position because of known problems in crafting the Bible, whose human authorship is never denied (unlike, say, the Qur’an). One extreme result of this mentality was Thomas Jefferson’s attempt to edit the Gospels of all ‘superstitious’ elements, just as a Neo-Darwinist (say, UK geneticist Steve Jones) might re-write Origin of Species to reinstate Darwin’s fundamental principles in a firmer evidence base. To be sure, there is still plenty of room for blasphemy, but at least not for atheism!

(3) Within philosophy, theodicists, despite their disagreements, claimed legitimacy from Descartes, whose ‘cogito ergo sum’ proposed an example of human-divine overlap, namely, humanity’s repetition of how the deity establishes its own existence. After all, creation is necessary only because God originally exists apart from matter, and so needs to make its presence felt in the world through matter. (Isn’t that what the creation stories in Genesis are about?) So too with humans, so Descartes seemed to think. The products of our own re-enactment of divine thought patterns are still discussed in philosophy today as ‘a priori knowledge’. The open question is how much of our knowledge falls under this category, since whatever knowledge we acquire from the senses is clearly tied to our animal natures, which God does not share. But of course, the senses do not operate unadorned. Thus, by distinguishing the sensory and non-sensory aspects of our knowledge, we might infer the reliability of our access to the intelligent designer.

(4) There was also what we now call the ‘Scientific Revolution’, whose calling card was the fruitfulness of mechanical models for fathoming the natural world. A striking case in point was Galileo’s re-fashioning of a toy, the telescope, into an instrument of astronomical discovery. This contributed to the sense that our spontaneous displays of invention and ingenuity also reproduced the divine creative process: We make things that open up the world to understanding and control. This mode of thinking would start to kick in the scientific societies formed around the 18th century’s Industrial Revolution. One such influential society in the British Midlands, the ‘Lunar Society’, has been the subject of a recent popular book by Jenny Uglow.

Theodicy gets off the ground against these four background conditions once a specific mental faculty is proposed as triggering the spark of the divine in the human. This faculty was generally known as intellectual intuition – that is, the capacity to anticipate experience in a systematic and rational fashion. (Here’s a definition of intelligence worth defending.) We would now say the capacity to generate virtual realities that happen to correspond to physical reality, the sort of thing computer simulations do all the time, courtesy of their programmers. In the 17th century, people were especially impressed by the prospect of analytic (aka Cartesian) geometry capturing a rational world-order governed by universal laws of mechanical motion. So far, so good. But clearly something went wrong – what?

Tune in for the next instalment…

Comments
I'm a traditionalist conservative who has no problem with socialized medicine or a mixed economy. I personally sympathize with the ideas of Edward Luttwak.Platonist
January 6, 2009
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If people don’t wish to take the time to read what I have posted, there’s not much that I can do about it, of course. But the bulk of these comments are simply rehashing old arguments about design detection without dealing squarely with the issue of intelligence. Too many of you are wedded to this ‘faith-based empiricism’ I earlier decried, where you somehow think that the evidence speaks for itself. But you don’t have a science unless you have a theory that can do at least two things: (a) say what the evidence is evidence for; (b) test that interpretation against new evidence, preferably vis-à-vis a competing theory. The closest to a theory many here seem to want is to say that there’s a reasonable chance that chance and necessity can’t explain nature’s design. OK, that’s nice but probably not as strongly contested as some of you think. And it’s still proto-science until you’ve got a theory – presumably some theory of intelligence -- that attempts to explain the design. Finally, StephenB (@63), it should be perfectly obvious why a social constructivist might be attracted to intelligent design. It goes back to the nature of intelligence, which historically starts with theism, moves through deism and idealism, and ends up with constructivism. All of these movements are about world-making, each one slightly more secular and less absolute. But all are committed to a strong sense of intelligence, agency and purpose. The metaphysical continuity is pretty transparent, but it’s not more easily seen because of the mixed political affiliations of these positions. But I can assure you, for example, that while I’m a social constructivist who happens to be a leftist, there are also plenty of conservative social constructivists (esp. in the social phenomenology tradition, e.g. Alfred Schutz, Peter Berger, etc.). But the main point I would stress here is that if (or when!) ID defeats the Darwinists on scientific grounds, nothing will have been resolved on the moral and political front. After all, not all Darwinists are leftists, are they?Steve Fuller
January 6, 2009
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Earvin: “The question was, why do you assume a lack of coordination” Well, I think the answer is somewhat obvious. Chance does not include (as a part of its mechanism) a function that can foresee the need to coordinate itself with any other choice that has been made along the sequence. A roll of the dice is a roll of the dice. Jerry and dgosse have done a much better job than I in summarizing the probabilistic aspects of chance, but if I may extend on that in one aspect: In the nine letter example of reaching the word “evolution” by chance, let us say that in the first roll I get an “e” in the first position. Lets us then say in the second roll I get a “v” in the second position. In my third roll I am just as likely to change the “e” in first position to an “x”. And in the roll after that I will add a tenth letter to the word. And after that I will eliminate the fifth position, ending up with two four letter words. If this seems like I am being too hard on chance as a mechanism, I am not, I am describing it in its fullest potential - it cannot coordinate any given result with any other given result.Upright BiPed
January 6, 2009
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Laminar said "On your assertion that the MES can’t predict or produce anything I would have to disagree. I think the fact that it is so well established as a scientific theory is due to its predictive power but I’m not a biologist so I’ll leave examples for someone else to post if the moderators will permit them. " This statement is based on authority so you should be aware that none of the experts has ever demonstrated anything that would obviate ID. What would give ID a difficult time are examples of things arising naturally and so far this hasn't happened. All their examples are speculation or just so stories that their imagination provides. They are not empirical examples. Darwin had two theories and one is less controversial than the other. For the want of a better name, we will call one micro evolution and one macro evolution. Micro evolution is essentially modern genetics with some added twists and some expanded ideas. It is relatively uncontroversial though that does not make some in evolutionary biology from claiming extraordinary things for micro evolution that are beyond the time available for it to produce. The second theory is macro evolution and this is what Darwin really wanted to show but neither he nor anyone since have been able to demonstrate that it ever happened. This is the area of conflict even though nearly all your experts will use micro evolution to justify Darwinian processes. The real issue is the origin of novel complex capabilities. In software these might be complicated sub routines of new code that may take over a thousand lines. In new species this would be the appearance of wings, neurological systems, blood pressure systems, eyes, etc which require thousands of new lines of code or maybe millions and they do not previously exist. No one has ever shown how such a complicated system can arise anew. Lots of speculation but nothing concrete. The traditional way is to show slow morphological changes but this ignores that the code underlying the new systems must be developed too and this is what is daunting because it usually must control not only several proteins but also the sequencing of the steps to control everything. The moderators will permit anyone in the world to comment here if they behave, that is be respectful, stay on message, etc. At this current time we have 3-4 anti ID people making comments and such people only get banned for anti social behavior. Pro ID people have been banned here when their comments seemed inappropriate. So if you do not feel competent to criticize, find someone who you think could and we would be happy to listen to what they say.jerry
January 6, 2009
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Laminar, Genetic Algorithms, or any other useful thing, doesn't mean that what inspired it was useful or true. I'm sure useful things came from alchemy. Eugenics was a term coined by Francis Galton, Darwin's cousin. The term is Darwinian. The practice of artificial selection with animals predates Darwin, but he and his cousin gave it applicability to humans. And the Darwinian process was not only about natural selection, most of his examples that convinced him of evolution came from his pigeons and other animals and plants that were artificially selected. To Darwin, the differences were that artificial selection could evolve an animal or plant quicker through trained breeders and trained selection of features, something not seen in the slow natural selection in the wild, but nevertheless a proof of evolution in Darwin's mind. Knowing that you were designed gets much closer to assuming that you have a purpose than being the product of random happenstance chance mechanisms. That throws all purpose away.Clive Hayden
January 6, 2009
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Hi Earvin the idea of “so improbable as to be practically impossible” makes no sense [...] So long as the door of probability is open–even if it’s just open a tiny crack–the phenomenon is no less (or more) likely occur on the first opportunity than on the millionth. Yes, this is the argument, and a superficially plausible argument, a 1 in ten, 1 in one hundred, even, conceivably, a one in a trillion chance could always hapeen in the first instance. But we are talking about a chain of 1 in a trillion+ chances. Here is an example using just the 26 letters of the alphabet with no distinction between capital and lower case letters, no punctuation, and no spaces. To spell the word “evolution,” obtaining the nine letters in order, each having a 1/26 probability, you have a probability of 1 in 5,429,503,678,976. This, as you will realize, comes from multiplying 26 by itself, using the figure 9 times. If every five seconds day and night a person drew out one letter, he could expect to succeed in spelling the word “evolution” about once in 800,000 years!http://www.creationsafaris.com/epoi_c02.htm This is to form on simple-nine letter word using a twenty-six letter alphabet. Consider then the chain of miracles that will bring together the right elements in the right order at the right time to form the simplest amino acid. Then consider the chirality factor, the "chance" formation of protiens, cells, and the cellular infrastructure necessary for ingestion, excretion, repair, and reproduction, not to mention the "language" of DNA, and the capacity to "read" the instructions. When we start to factor in these layers of probability even the "could have happened the first time as easily as the last time" becomes an increasingly less probable scenario. Add to that the "probability" that the failure of one step to occur at the necessary time and place, particularly in the early stages, would "probably" rupture the entire chain irreparably, necessitating the repetition of the entire set of steps. Not only each step must happen, but a chain of steps must happen, and the chain introduces another level of probabilty. In the above example, spelling one nine-letter word, we can see that the "probability" of producing a sentence, with nouns and verbs and punctuation becomes exponentially less "probable," and a simple sentence if far less complex than an amino acid or a protein, let alone a "simple" cell.dgosse
January 6, 2009
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Earvin Johnson, What you say is true if the universe was eternal or in other words the sample opportunities were infinite. But they are not. So there is a physical limit on the number of times one can sample the urn for your objects. When the probability of sampling the red object is substantially higher than the number of sampling opportunities then the selection of the red object gets almost impossible. The problem with life and Darwinian processes is that they require thousands if not millions of these low probability events to get to life and evolution according to Darwin's processes. And the probability of each must be multiplied for all the required steps. Now the way the Darwinists get around this is to say that there is an incredibly large set of states that would fit the definition of life and the events in the past just happened to stumble upon our state or life process when a different roll of the dice might have led to one of the incredibly large other states or maybe to nothing. But it led to the one we live with so like the infinite number of universes we are witnessing the lucky object pulled out of the urn. So they hypothesize intermediary states along the way to our one of the incredibly large number of viable states. The problem is that they can not produce one of these other states so are they incredibly large or is ours really the only viable one. If ours is the only one then the materialists have to describe what magical process led to the incredibly low series of low probabilistic events. They then repeat that with evolution and say that once given the life state luckily chosen, each of the organisms that have lived on earth are just one of the infinite number of possibilities as chance and environment create the new species. A different set of chance events and environments would have produced a completely different suite of life forms because the possibilities are literally infinite. Such as what we see in the Star Wars bar scene. However, this falls apart because they can not demonstrate how just one of these infinite possibilities came to be and since each new life form requires thousands of viable predecessors none of which exist. So the argument falls apart but the crux of the argument is essentially one of probabilities that are incredibly small. That does not stop the Darwinists from invoking magic though.jerry
January 6, 2009
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Upright, The question was, why do you assume a lack of coordination, given the idea that the steps in the alleged stepwise fashion are contingent upon coordination? Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by "coordination."Earvin Johnson
January 6, 2009
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Earvin, How does a "stepwise fashion" improve upon the lack of coordination, if coordination is essential to function?Upright BiPed
January 6, 2009
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dgosse, the idea of “so improbable as to be practically impossible” makes no sense, I'm afraid. Think of it this way, using small numbers: suppose I have ten small objects, nine of them blue and one red. If you make a random selection of one object, what is the likelihood that you will pick the red one on the first attempt? The obvious answer is 1 in 10. Now, after pulling a blue one on the first attempt and putting it back with the rest, what's the likelihood of selecting the red one on the second (or fifth, or tenth) opportunity? Always 1 in 10. So long as the door of probability is open--even if it's just open a tiny crack--the phenomenon is no less (or more) likely occur on the first opportunity than on the millionth. The fact that the odds are 1 in [some huge number]doesn't mitigate against the phenomenon happening on the first opportunity.Earvin Johnson
January 6, 2009
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Upright Biped said @61:
A mechanism of chance would create results at the individual nucleic sequencing level that are completely independent of any other results in the sequencing.
This line of reasoning seems to assume facts not in evidence--why shoul we assume that "a mechanism of chance" would create results independent of one another? In other words, Darwinians allege that these things are arrived at in stepwise fashion, which contradicts your contention that "results" in those cases must be independent of one another.Earvin Johnson
January 6, 2009
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Hi Earven #56 While I’m sympathetic to the ID cause, I wish its proponents would stop characterizing the improbable as impossible. If probability is >0, it’s not impossible. I may be mistaken here, not being a mathematition and being nearly ignorant of probability theory, but it seems to me that, according to probability theory, nothing is impossible. Everything is assigned a greater or lesser degree of probability and no thing attains a probability of 1 or 0. I have read more than a few arguments, on both sides of the debate, that appeal to "probability" as proof that their idea cannot be dismissed out of hand because it is not "impossible." In fact, Dembski, in one of his essays, attempts to set a limit to probability i.e. if it falls below a certain threshold it is so improbable that it may be reasonably considered impossible. Still, I am, for whatever reason, uncomfortable with assertions that any given phenomena is "impossible" and tend to prefer such statements as "so improbable as to be practically impossible." On the other hand, I recently read half of the book "Evidence and Evolution: The Logic Behind the Science" in the hope that it might offer a strong argument in favor of evolution. I stopped reading when, after spending an inordinate amount of ink on the obscurities of probability theory, the author "proved" that information can arise spontaneously with the "infinite monkeys typing" argument, therefore, evolution is true because it is "possible" that enough monkeys typing for a long enough period of time could produce the corpus of Shakespearean drama. Having also read several effective refutations of the "infinite monkeys typing" theory and knowing now that while it appears reasonable of a superficial level, upon examination it soon becomes apparent that the "probablity" of even one sensible paragraph being produced is so vanishingly small that we could safely say it is "nearly impossible." Typing Monkeys Fail to Produce Works of Shakespearehttp://www.wtop.com/?nid=502&sid=605470 A sad day for probability theory.dgosse
January 6, 2009
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-----“Please tell me what is at stake when a Darwinist says something ‘appears’ designed and you say it is ‘really’ designed?” The distinction between real design and "apparent design" matters only if you care about the difference between the "natural moral law" and the principle of "might makes right"---or the difference between "natural rights" and state sanctioned rights--or the difference a well-ordered society and barbarism. Of course, social constructivism (your paradigm?) holds that there is no such thing as a natural right or a natural moral law. According to this formulation, we do not "discover" truth, we "create" it through social or symbolic interaction. Since all truth is relative to the time, place, and to the group that is "constructing" it, there can be no universal standard of morality and justice to arbitrate among the disparte truths that are being constructed. As a result, we are left with a "war of all against all." In a broader sense, I don't understand how anyone can believe in social constructivism and intelligent design at the same time. Once sociology is elevated to the level of a metaphysic, there seems to be no way to reconcile it with a designed universe. So, that raises the obvious question: Do you believe that the universe (world, life) was designed?StephenB
January 6, 2009
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Earvin at 56, My claim was not made on the basis of probabilities, but on the qualitative realities of the mechanisms of chance and necessity. A mechanism of chance would create results at the individual nucleic sequencing level that are completely independent of any other results in the sequencing. This is diametrically opposed to the type of mechanism that would create the functional organization or coordination observed within the genome. A mechanism of physical necessity would inevitably create physical order, where the results would become aperiodic. This also is completely opposite of what is found in nucleic sequencing. The only known mechanism that can create patterns of sequencing that are not contingent on physical demands, are organized and coordinated to function, is volitional agency. Of course, it can be said that with infinite time, or limitless universes, anything can come about by chance and necessity - which is exactly the argument materialists are forced into. So be it.Upright BiPed
January 6, 2009
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Rude, Are you saying that you've computed the odds for or against the appearance or existence of a Tooth Fairy? Unless I'm mistaken, Dr. Dembski and others have made the effort to express the improbability of Darwinistic organization in numbers, and have concluded, based on those numbers, that the probability is very low, and "very low" does not equal "impossible."Earvin Johnson
January 6, 2009
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Earvin Johnson, It's also improbable that a real tooth fairy will materialize in the right weather conditions and put some money under my pillow---but for practical purposes we generally say it's "impossible".Rude
January 6, 2009
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I’m not really sure what Steve Fuller is getting at, partly, perhaps, because I don’t have time to carefully read and digest all that’s written above. If his assertion is simple I wish he’d make it so. Anyway ID does not claim that the material content of living things could not be designed and manufactured by beings such as ourselves (but with a more advanced technology). That is not to say, however, that our manufactured life would be alive, for that depends on whether the vitalists are right. Also ID does not claim that the agency of design is itself a mechanism—our own folks, such as Angus Menuge and Denise O’Leary & Mario Beauregard, have argued otherwise.Rude
January 6, 2009
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“Knowledge is knowing that we cannot know.” — Ralph Waldo Emerson. “We don’t know enough about the unknown to know that it is unknowable.” — G. K. Chesterton as quoted by our own William A. Dembski. I say it’s laziness and a lack of curiosity to define a priori what’s unknowable. But it makes good sense to begin with the easy stuff, which is to point out the absurdity of Materialism and its Prophet and the logic and beauty of Design. It was the wisdom of Phillip Johnson to avoid being drug into religious squabbles, though I remember him remarking that after this materialism thing is settled then everything will be on the table. I, for one, am not a demarcationist. Empirical science and philosophy are at different ends of a continuum on which there is no discrete divide. Also silly is the never-ending battle over what is and is not “science”. The fact that we do not want ID swallowed up in the endless swirl of debates that philosophers do not want solved doesn’t mean that those debates are not solvable. But ID’s job is to liberate our best minds from the fog of materialism, then there will be more of them to tackle the tougher problems. So I agree that we not embroil ID in the issues that divide us. Let us agree to disagree on the other stuff and unite behind the effort to slay the one dragon we can slay. It behooves us all, for if Darwin was right then none of the rest matters.Rude
January 6, 2009
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Upright Biped @14 said:
ID leads the evidence. Functional nucleic sequencing cannot happen by chance or necessity.
While I'm sympathetic to the ID cause, I wish its proponents would stop characterizing the improbable as impossible. If probability is >0, it's not impossible. If you believe otherwise, please show your work.Earvin Johnson
January 6, 2009
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How does the science of God differ from the oldest questions of all "What is the meaning of life?" or "Why am I here?" And has anybody thought about these two questions before. If so, then maybe we should read what they have to say and what they have discovered. I actually think some of this is interesting but not from a science or ID point of view. I ordered Nadler's book and when I get home, look forward to reading it. What is the best of all possible worlds? Fun question but does it really tie into ID as science in any direct way.jerry
January 6, 2009
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W.J.M You are right to assert the wrongness of teaching that the modern evolutionary synthesis should be taught as some kind of philosophical truth in society. The general 'idea' of evolution can be very easily and wrongly applied to almost anything. Don't forget though that Darwin didn't invent the term Evolution he just adopted it to describe his theory. When astronomers talk about the 'evolution' of the solar system they are using it to mean gradual change over time, not a Darwinian process in action. On your assertion that the MES can't predict or produce anything I would have to disagree. I think the fact that it is so well established as a scientific theory is due to its predictive power but I'm not a biologist so I'll leave examples for someone else to post if the moderators will permit them. As far as producing things, I work in computer science and the use of Genetic Algorithms has produced some interesting and useful things. I know that GA's are not biological evolution, but they are based on (have been produced by) the theory, and are useful search algorithms for some tasks. As for Eugenics, it actually pre dates Darwin, and isn't Darwinian. Eugenics involves artificial selection of people for breeding based on human developed ideas about their desirability or purity. It is the application of the artificial selective breeding that has been done with farm animals and crops for generations to the human population. The Darwinian process is about selection that occurs without human (or other) intervention - so called Natural Selection. Believing that we are intelligently designed can still lead to bad places - You can easily develop ideologies where people you don't like are broken 'designs' in need of fixing. Just knowing that you were designed doesn't automatically mean you have a purpose, or that your purpose is a good one.Laminar
January 6, 2009
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If ID was to tackle this question it would be a remarkable broadening of its research program because the task would not only be to detect design but also to detect goals in design.
In general I do not see a problem with a "goal detection" program as long as it's understood within its scope. I do not think this should be conflated directly with core ID theory or ID-compatible hypotheses centered around potential mechanisms. I'd also liken this "goal detection" program to evolutionary psychology because quite frankly any claims it will make will be highly speculative.Patrick
January 6, 2009
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Sal Gal, Here is a suggestion for you or any other anti ID people. ID was just debated at Opposing Views. http://www.opposingviews.com/questions/does-intelligent-design-have-merit See thread by DaveScot above this one. And the best and the brightest of the anti ID people presented their case against ID in both the comments in the ID section and in their opposing views. They made especially long comments under the ID arguments so don't miss these. Why don't you go there and load up with their arguments and come back here and see if you can make a dent in the ID argument. As I said in the comment above, you will be the first to expose the vapidness of ID.jerry
January 6, 2009
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Much as I hate to admit it, I would describe this post by Steve as leading with your jaw. It's better to know intellectual history intimately before attempting something this delicate and difficult. Looks like William J. was right all along.allanius
January 6, 2009
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Sal Gal said: "Design may make more sense to you than Darwinism, but it makes absolutely no sense in a naturalistic (materialistic) science. The worst naturalistic explanation is more coherent in the existing scientific framework than is any appeal to creation of information (i.e., intelligent design)." You are begging the question. Intelligent Design is not valid because it is not valid. You hold up naturalistic materialistic science as the entirety of explanation and then dismiss ID because it is not part of this domain. What logic! The shallowness of your argument is the best support ID has. Like any other who comes here and dismisses ID you fail to provide an alternative. There is no alternative as of this moment whether in your limited domain of naturalistic explanations or otherwise. So you dismiss ID but provide no alternative. I haven't a clue what you mean by "exclusion clause" and have read extensively in the history of sciennce. But Darwin did no such thing as to make naturalistic science more consistent. Darwin speculated, that is all he did. He provided no evidence in the OOS for macro evolution. What Darwin saw on the Beagle and anywhere else was micro evolution. He did nothing to explain the origin of novel complex capabilities. He invoked a magic wand process that is still used today, called deep time, which is equivalent to a God of the Gaps argument. Whenever one is stuck, invoke deep time and modern day biologist have added scaffolding, co-option, emergence as sister concepts. All of which have no empirical basis but are part of the magic potions used only in this branch of so called science. Sal Gal, you are following the same path as all Darwinists who come here. One that is not paved with reason or facts but with one's imagination. When forced to provide specifics they always punt or attack ID. And you criticize the ID people. We are still waiting for Godot or the one who can defend Darwinian evolution. Your strategy is to throw ID back into our faces as if that is the answer. By doing so you are admitting you have nothing and that our possibility is even more likely. If you read the above, I said to Fuller that he has the argument wrong. ID is not about certainty but about possibility. Darwinian macro evolution is about what is impossible. They have not shown how to overcome the impossibility. Hence the use of magic concepts. And you claim this is naturalistic science. Whoa!!jerry
January 6, 2009
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It astounds me that this train wreck is still going on; it astounds me that Fuller can't see what difference it makes - what sweeping, fundamental, society-changing difference it makes - if there is actual design, or only happenstance appearance of design, regardless of whether or not anyone can "detect" the motives or purpose of any putative creative source.William J. Murray
January 6, 2009
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Fuller asks: "Please tell me what is at stake when a Darwinist says something ‘appears’ designed and you say it is ‘really’ designed?" What is at stake is how (from what fundamental assumptions) one proceeds to design hypothosis, theory, experiments, and interpretatiosn of evidence. From the fundamental perpsective of design/non-design, the rest of the house is planned, designed, and built; from the assumption of non-design, a freakish, cobbled-together frankenstein of a theory that can't predict or produce anything has been established as a fact and is taught in the school not only as science, but as the fundamental overriding philosophical "truth" of our society. Even to the point where eugenics and evolutionary psychology are, or have been, considered "science". THAT is the difference between the two perspectives; you end up with an entirely different society.William J. Murray
January 6, 2009
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Vivid, Analyzing the logic of an argument is within the province of rhetoric. Johnson indeed functioned as a rhetorician, analyzing logic and offering counterarguments meant to persuade. He was also highly aware, I think, of how arguments would wash in federal court. You quote Johnson as saying that "what people believe about evolution and Darwinism depends very heavily on the kind of logic they employ and the kind of assumptions they make." I have commented repeatedly that explanations depend on assumptions. But where Johnson will tell you that the assumptions behind Darwinism are bad, I will tell you that they are a reasonable choice. Methodological naturalism amounts to blinders one may choose to put on the workhorse of science. If you want your horse to see something else, choose a different bias. But you're not going to gain some sort of explanatory advantage without giving up some other.Sal Gal
January 6, 2009
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DaveScot, You evidently missed the modifier in "mainstream science." The "first scientist" was Ibn al-Haytham, a Muslim who was born in Basra. He's regarded the pioneer of the scientific method. Prior to him, people observed nature methodically, but no one methodically posed questions and put them to experimental test. Science was lost in Muslim culture, and emerged independently in Christian culture. A huge amount has been written on the basic assumptions of modern science and their religious origin. I've seen atheists acknowledge the religious roots of science -- even Dawkins, I think. If it doesn't bother them, why should it you? The fact is that you have to believe something before you can form an explanation of what you observe. Empirical observations do not compel particular explanations.Sal Gal
January 6, 2009
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Jerry,
What bothers me from what you said is that something that is called science in no way fits the definition of science and that is Darwinian macro evolution (origin of novel complex capabilities.) Do you agree?
Are you saying that biologists are not self-consistent? Prior to Darwin, naturalism had taken hold throughout science, with the exception of explanation of life. Darwin showed how to do away with the "exclusion clause" for living things. He made naturalistic science more consistent, not less. You IDists need a consistent science that permits explanation in terms of non-material causes. Trying to reintroduce exclusion clauses is intellectually shabby. If Darwinism should be in utter disrepute ten years from now, that would not reestablish design in mainstream science. The reason is that design has not belonged there since the late 18th Century, when naturalism entered science. There is no ideal of science that some of us apprehend better than others. Science is a human invention, and is subject to reinvention. Design may make more sense to you than Darwinism, but it makes absolutely no sense in a naturalistic (materialistic) science. The worst naturalistic explanation is more coherent in the existing scientific framework than is any appeal to creation of information (i.e., intelligent design). If you want intelligent design as part of a coherent scientific belief system, you must reformulate science. And the masses perhaps will find your system of explanation preferable to the science we have now.Sal Gal
January 5, 2009
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