Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part IV

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This post originally began as a response to Andrew Sibley but the issues here may resonate with others wanting to reconcile science and religion, coming at it mainly from the religious side. My concern here, as an interested bystander, is that apologetics tends to be much too apologetic. Christianity, in particular, has a much stronger hand to play with regard to the support of science.

 

I am intrigued by the caution, if not squeamishness, that ID supporters – especially Christian ones – express towards the pursuit of theodicy. Since these reservations come from people on both sides of the Atlantic, they do not seem to be exclusively tied to the particular legal issues surrounding the separation of church and state in the US Constitution.

 

Maybe these reservations concern the idea that the Bible might be understood literally yet fallibly, as the theodicists seemed to do.  They read the Bible as we would a scientific treatise, namely, as some admixture of socio-historic construction (of the theorist) and timeless reality (of the theorized). Certainly our Darwinist opponents read Origin of Species in that spirit. They venerate the text and its author but they do not deny its flaws. Instead they dedicate their lives to correcting its errors and offering a better version of the original vision. Thus, Darwin is read as literal, fallible and corrigible.

 

I believe that the original 17th century Scientific Revolutionaries, including the theodicists, read the Bible exactly in this way – and would have been surprised, if not appalled, to learn that it opened the door to intense religious scepticism and even atheism over the next two centuries. After all, the likes of Newton believed that the Bible was indeed inspired by God but equally that it is an alloy text. It demands that we distinguish the divine inspiration from the inevitable noise introduced by the people originally entrusted with capturing that inspiration. To engage in this separation of wheat from chaff is to attempt to get closer to God. Of course, one might get the task horribly wrong, which might even result in eternal damnation. Nevertheless, we – as those created in the image and likeness of God – are called to engage in this risky business.

 

But note: The relevant engagement is not prayer or special revelation – but science itself. Nature’s design is not a sign that God wants to communicate with us. It is a message that has been already sent to us, and our job is to decode it and offer a fitting response – which is to say, to make the world a better place, in keeping with the divine plan. At least, if one wishes to remain a Biblical literalist and be robustly committed to science, this is how one should think about the science-religion relationship. My view is that this is how the theodicists Leibniz and Malebranche, as well as Newton and many of his illustrious successors – Whewell, Faraday, Maxwell, Kelvin – thought about the matter.

 

This is not the familiar dodge of claiming that the Bible is ‘metaphorically’ or ‘ethically’ true. Such an attitude effectively denies the need to reconcile the Book of God and the Book of Nature: We can live in a world of multiple truths for multiple occasions. On this basis, there would never have been a Scientific Revolution, whose protagonists, after all, parted ways with the Pope because of Catholicism’s fundamental distrust of humanity’s Biblical entitlement to exercise its own creative reason to arrive at a unified understanding of reality. Perhaps the most artful expression of this point about Catholicism’s latent ‘bad faith’ is Dostoevsky’s ‘Grand Inquisitor’ episode in The Brothers Karamazov.

 

But what’s the specifically religious
payoff of this line of thought? I see two major ones, though both controversial.

 

First of all, it helps to explain how Christianity managed to surpass Islam as a scientific culture – especially if we think of science the modern self-critical sense that followed in the wake of the Protestant Reformation. Muhammad is usually presented as an illiterate vessel for the divine truth recorded in the Qur’an. His lack of personal authorship, and hence lack of personal responsibility, has made it very difficult to raise the fallibility of Islam’s sacred book without courting charges of blasphemy. (Consider the fate of Averroes.) To be sure, the Qur’an gives pride of place to humanity in nature and encourages the pursuit of knowledge. But it provides little if no scope for challenging specific claims made in the sacred book itself, since everything said there is presumed to be exactly as God wanted it to be said.

 

Put another way, Muhammad is not presented as a sufficiently independent thinker to have possibly resisted or misunderstood what God said to him. In contrast, from day one, there have been disputes about whether the Biblical authors got God right, which has had major consequences, not least for which books ought to be included in the Bible. I would trace Christianity’s historic openness to the questioning of even its most sacred texts to the strength of its Judaic heritage, as Jesus himself is portrayed as a precocious master of rabbinical criticism. 

 

Second, and perhaps more provocatively, I believe that the style of  ‘scientific theology’ exemplified by theodicy helps to serve Christianity’s proselytising mission – i.e. conversion of the unbelievers. I have spent a fair amount of time (including at the Dover trial) defending the idea that certain religious beliefs have outright facilitated – not impeded – scientific discovery. But I would also make the reverse case, namely, that as more of the natural world is illuminated by hypotheses concerning the designer, thus enabling us to get a more exact understanding of the design, the closer science comes to communion with God. Indeed, if design were as illusory or superficial as Darwinists maintain, then the concept of design should not be so illuminating — even for evolutionists who continue to operate with stealth notions of design in the guise of, say, ‘adaptation’ or ‘optimisation’.

 

Nobody denies the metaphorical, even poetic, appeal of conceiving of nature as an artefact. However, an explanation is required for why turning the poetry into prose works even better, though not infallibly. That we are created in the image and likeness of the creative deity is the most straightforward explanation on offer. Of course, that doesn’t ‘prove’ God’s existence but it does provide grounds for selling the Biblical deity on scientific grounds – indeed, as the Jesuits were doing in China at the same time they were holding Galileo’s feet to the fire in Rome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments
Yes Stephen, I know the history and agree with all you've said. That does not change the recorded fact that the method of natural discovery has lead to an intractable inference to agency. The measure of its intractability is paralleled by the amount of obfuscation used to cover it. The point of my post is that ID should not change its central goal – the removal of concealment around the inference to Design. Dr. Fuller has a new goal for ID. He is happily convinced that it will propel ID forward. In this he is a wrong as any intelligent person could possibly be.Upright BiPed
January 17, 2009
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Perhaps I am a bit slow, but in 100 words or less, what exactly is the connection between theodicy and ID? I always considered theodicy a theological issue, explained in terms of the fall. How does this connect to detecting and/or inferring design in nature?NZer
January 17, 2009
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----trib: 'It’s not entirely arbitrary and it has it’s place. For instance, we like to use arson investigation as an example of ID in action." Trib, Methodological naturalism is not the exercise of bracketing natural causes, which is the routine way of doing science. We all know that science is "primarily" about natural causes. Methodological naturalism insists that science is and must always be "exclusively" about natural causes. That is why it is anti-ID. The difference is subtle but all important.StephenB
January 17, 2009
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StephenB--Methodological naturalism is simply an arbitrary rule that defines science as a search for natural causes and forbids the researcher to consider any other explanation, regardless of what the evidence may indicate It's not entirely arbitrary and it has it's place. For instance, we like to use arson investigation as an example of ID in action. Well, without meth-nat the building's owner can say 'hey, it was an evil leprechaun that set the fire because it thought I had it's gold so give me my insurance money.". What ID does is take meth-nat to its limit i.e "Yep, we can conclude life is designed. What did it? Can't say." And from there we can point out that there are questions beyond the ability of meth-nat to answer and that these questions are not just relevant but of prime importance. Hence, when this is recognized the use of meth-nat would be significantly limited in legislation, social policy and personal relations.tribune7
January 17, 2009
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if the ID scientist finds functionally specified complex information in a DNA molecule, methodological naturalism simply throws the evidence out or insists that it be re-interpreted to fit the Darwinist paradigm More commonly, they just pretend that CSI doesn't exist, tossing out all the math simply because it hasn't been vetted through their cliquish journals.WeaselSpotting
January 17, 2009
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-----Upright biped: "tribune is correct. Design is, at the very least, a conclusion of methodological naturalism." Methodological naturalism is simply an arbitrary rule that defines science as a search for natural causes and forbids the researcher to consider any other explanation, regardless of what the evidence may indicate. In keeping with that principle, it declares that any research that finds evidence of design in nature is invalid and that any methods employed toward that end are non-scientific. The Darwinist academy instituted this tyrannical standard in the l980’s to preserve their failed paradigm, to silence those who question it, and to “expel” all dissenters from the scientific community. So, if the ID scientist finds functionally specified complex information in a DNA molecule, methodological naturalism simply throws the evidence out or insists that it be re-interpreted to fit the Darwinist paradigm, meaning that is must be explained as the product of Darwinian processes. Further, if any scientist dares to challenge this rule, he will be disfranchised from the scientific community and all his work will be discredited. Obviously, this is unfair, because there has never been any such “rule” in the history of science; it is new and totally arbitrary.StephenB
January 17, 2009
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Upright Biped, thank you. I didn't get 4. What's a D theorist?tribune7
January 17, 2009
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Steve Fuller: I can't remember what the definition of theodicy is in case you care to repeat it. (I considered making a joke about idiocy being the study of id but thought better of it.) Two thumbs up on this piece you've written though. I had briefly perused some of your previous essays in this series, and from what I read, wasn't inclined to commend them - but sincere praise for this one. I'm thinking at the moment for example of your analysis of how even those that venerate and even deify Darwin still treat his works critically and seek to improve on them, and how Biblical literalists need to have the same attitude towards the Bible. Ironically however, the problem with most self-proclaimed Biblical literalists is that they simply aren't taking the Bible literally enough. Vast sections of the Bible are written off with a patronizing attitude as mere metaphors even by them. I'm thinking specifically of the Bible's repeated personification of the forces of nature. The central question in the id-evolution debate is whether the physical universe is a mechanism capable of generating human life on its own. Evolutionists, methodological naturalists, and so own would answer with a resounding "Yes", with perhaps a further qualification by some of them that it is an extremely inefficient and unfocussed mechanism. ID would assert that Agency, which is for them a distinct category from mechanism - and for probably most of them a nonmaterial entity - is necessary to create human life (and indeed a necessary component for humans themselves to be able to do the things that they do), and that material forces of nature most definitely do not exhibit such agency. But the Bible repeatedly ascribes personhood to forces of nature. Someone can gently correct me later about how I don't understand the concept of metaphor, but in the mean time consider the following passages:
(Psa 65:8) They who dwell in the ends stand in awe of Your signs; You make the dawn and the sunset shout for joy. (Psa 65:13) The meadows are clothed with flocks And the valleys are covered with grain; They shout for joy, yes, they sing. (Psa 68:1-2) Let God arise, let His enemies be scattered, And let those who hate Him flee before Him. As smoke is driven away, drive away; As wax melts before the fire, let the wicked perish before God. (Psa 68:16) Why do you look with envy, O mountains with peaks, At the mountain which God has desired for His abode? (Psa 90:3-5) You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men." For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it passes by, Or a watch in the night. You have swept them away like a flood, they fall asleep; In the morning they are like grass which sprouts anew. (Psa 96:11-12) Let the heavens be glad, and let the earth rejoice; Let the sea roar, and all it contains; Let the field exult, and all that is in it. Then all the trees of the forest will sing for joy (Psa 98:7-8) Let the sea roar and all it contains, The world and those who dwell in it. Let the rivers clap their hands, Let the mountains sing together for joy (Psa 103:13-16) Just as a father has compassion on children, So the LORD has compassion on those who fear Him. For He Himself knows our frame; He is mindful that we are dust. As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourishes. When the wind has passed over it, it is no more (Psa 104:3-4) ...[the Lord] makes the clouds His chariot; He walks upon the wings of the wind; He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers. (Psa 104:19) He made the moon for the seasons; The sun knows the place of its setting. Psa 114:3-6) The sea looked and fled; The Jordan turned back. The mountains skipped like rams, The hills, like lambs. What ails you, O sea, that you flee? O Jordan, that you turn back? O mountains, that you skip like rams? O hills, like lambs? (Psa 148) Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens; Praise Him in the heights! Praise Him, all His angels; Praise Him, all His hosts! Praise Him, sun and moon; Praise Him, all stars of light! Praise Him, highest heavens, And the waters that are above the heavens! Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. He has also established them forever and ever; He has made a decree which will not pass away. Praise the LORD from the earth, Sea monsters and all deeps; Fire and hail, snow and clouds; Stormy wind, fulfilling His word;... Beasts and all cattle; Creeping things and winged fowl; Kings of the earth and all peoples; Princes and all judges of the earth; Both young men and virgins; Old men and children.
So we see forces of nature "looking with envy", singing, praising, acting as messengers and ministers, "knowing" things, fleeing, skipping, "ailing". Contarily we see above men equated to things like dust, grass, wax, smoke and flowers. If the Bible writers were convicted that forces of nature couldn't really do the things generally attributed to humans or agents, then they should have employed different metaphors. Some will object, "Where does it say in the above that forces of nature created life?" For that you'll have to go to Genesis, wherein we find the following phrase uttered repeatedly in varying forms, "Let the earth bring forth living things." Some Biblical literalists might think that the Psalm writers above were doing nothing more than mindlessly and incessantly repeating some poetic conventions of the day. They should then consider the New Testament and the words and actions of the person identifed as the Son of God:
(Luke 8:24) They came to Jesus and woke Him up, saying, "Master, Master, we are perishing!" And He got up and rebuked the wind and the surging waves, and they stopped, and it became calm. (Mark 11:13-14) Seeing at a distance a fig tree in leaf, He went if perhaps He would find anything on it; and when He came to it, He found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs. He said to it, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again!" And His disciples were listening... As they were passing by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots Being reminded, Peter *said to Him, "Rabbi, look, the fig tree which You cursed has withered." (Luke 19:38-40) ...[his disciples were] shouting: "BLESSED IS THE KING WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Him, "Teacher, rebuke Your disciples." But Jesus answered, "I tell you, if these become silent, the stones will cry out!"
So to Jesus, things like the wind and waves could be rebuked. And something as simple as a fig tree could be judged and condemned. This should be food for thought for all those that assert that moral culpability necessitates what they term "Free Will". And for those who would belittle or marginalize the Psalms, lets see what the Son of God had to say about them:
(John 10:33-36) The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out God." Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
The passage Jesus was quoting and which he characterized as the "Law" and "scripture that cannot be broken" is Psalms 82:6 -
(Psa 82:6) I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Regarding the personification of nature, obviously that would be easier in an era when it wasn't understood how all these things work. But can any claimed Biblical literalist implicitly write off all these passages, with the thought, "Science knows better now." (And then turn around and castigate science for assuming naturalism.) Perhaps it should lead us in the other direction, i.e. "The Bible personifies things in nature which we know to function as mechanisms. Perhaps man, who is also personified in scripture, also functions as a mechanism." Apologies for the Sunday School Lesson, but it is almost Sunday. I thought of waiting for Sunday, but Seventh Day Adventists probably consider this the right day to post scripture. I have often thought that what is needed is a forum for people who respect the Bible to analytically discuss all these issues. It wouldn't be for people who simply have a patronizing but dismissive attitude towards the BIble, as merely a collection of improving and charming stories, maybe sort of like Uncle Remus' tales, but rather for knowledgable people to analytically and critically discuss origin issues in the specific context of scripture. And I do understand that this forum is not the place for that. Also apologies to KairosFocus if you happen to be reading this, as I devolved into an overly personal attack on your writings about a month ago (after posting for several hours) and was embarassed enough to consider I should lay low for awhile. One reason for the current post is to see if I've been put back on moderation, and if I have, I will not post here again.JT
January 17, 2009
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Trib, you don’t really mean to use that language do you? Methodological naturalism is about as anti-ID as you can get? StephenB (and Crandaddy) I have a big grin on my face right now. Why not use that language? ID does not invoke (or require) the supernatural. Not in the least. Crandaddy, ID is very naturalistic. It uses the scientific method to describe a measurable and observable event. I wouldn't want to go beyond that. Most significantly, it can be falsified. What I would suggest is that ID and meth-nat are very useful at investigating certain things but neither (I'll separate them for this post) is able to reveal or explain the important truths (what is our purpose, to what must we account for failure etc.)tribune7
January 17, 2009
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-----Steve: “I am intrigued by the caution, if not squeamishness, that ID supporters – especially Christian ones – express towards the pursuit of theodicy. Since these reservations come from people on both sides of the Atlantic, they do not seem to be exclusively tied to the particular legal issues surrounding the separation of church and state in the US Constitution.” I am not clear on what you are saying here. Christianity has its own built in explanation for a compromised design and the problem of suffering. Obviously, it’s related to original sin and the “fall of mankind.” I am not getting the problem. On the one hand, Christians who embrace intelligent design acknowledge, or should, that their religion and their science are all part of the same truth. On the other hand, they also recognize their religion presents a different aspect of the truth than does their science. That means that [A] Christian theodicy and intelligent design are perfectly compatible and yet [B] intelligent design does not need Christian theodicy to justify itself. You seem to be saying that if [B] is true, then [A] cannot also be true. Obviously, that is not the case. So, I don’t know what you are getting at here. -----“Maybe these reservations concern the idea that the Bible might be understood literally yet fallibly, as the theodicists seemed to do. They read the Bible as we would a scientific treatise, namely, as some admixture of socio-historic construction (of the theorist) and timeless reality (of the theorized). Certainly our Darwinist opponents read Origin of Species in that spirit. They venerate the text and its author but they do not deny its flaws. Instead they dedicate their lives to correcting its errors and offering a better version of the original vision. Thus, Darwin is read as literal, fallible and corrigible.” By using the word “theodicists,” are you suggesting that everyone who tries to justify the ways of God to man all think the same way? If not, I am not clear on why you are generalizing here. When you say “they read the Bible this way,” (“literally yet falliby”) are you suggesting that they accept every word as “literally” true yet, at the same time, think the Bible is “fallible,” meaning that it contains errors. That seems like a very strange hybrid of an attitude, if not an outright contradiction. If they think that the Bible contains errors, why don’t they just rewrite it as they see fit. That would certainly solve their “theodicy” problem. Am I missing something?StephenB
January 17, 2009
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I find Steve's responses at 2 and 4 to be most illuminating. Take note.Upright BiPed
January 17, 2009
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tribune is correct. Design is, at the very least, a conclusion of methodological naturalism. There is nothing in the sequencing of nucleotides that indicates anything other than agency. There is no chapter in Behe's book or Demski's filter that says that anything has acted beyond natural law. The demarcation between what can be answered by naturalism and theology or philosophy remains, at the acceptably mild expense that honesty and integrity will have been returned to science.Upright BiPed
January 17, 2009
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tribune7, "ID is methodological naturalism." I must respectfully disagree. One big reason mainstream science hasn't warmed up to ID is precisely because it is not naturalistic. Mind-first explanations are not naturalistic explanations. Steve, I'm not quite clear on what criteria you use to distinguish design theory from intelligent design theory. I think I understand well enough the significance of ID to the project of theodicy, but it seems that once we put design in a theological context, we make assumptions (e.g. that God exists and that his designing activity is intelligible to humans) that are not properly attributable to design epistemology, as such. To me, intelligent design theory is simply an approach to design epistemology; theodicy is a separate (though related) field of study.crandaddy
January 17, 2009
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----tribune 7: "ID is methodological naturalism." Trib, you don't really mean to use that language do you? Methodological naturalism is about as anti-ID as you can get?StephenB
January 17, 2009
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tribune 7: In that case, you're not an ID theorist. you're a D theorist. It sounds to me like you are the one in the wrong place -- unless you're a fifth columnist!Steve Fuller
January 17, 2009
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But if you are a Christian, then you’ve sadly missed the intellectual power of your own religion if you fail to see the connection between ID and theodicy. ID is methodological naturalism. You cannot use methodological naturalism to answer philosophical or theological questions. ID can be used to find design. Once design is found, ID's usefulness ends. Now, how are you suggesting that a very interesting technique used to find design be used to answer matters relating to God's justice and the existence of evil?tribune7
January 17, 2009
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tribune7: If you're not a Christian, then, sure, you're entitled to pursue a diminished version of ID to your heart's content. But if you are a Christian, then you've sadly missed the intellectual power of your own religion if you fail to see the connection between ID and theodicy.Steve Fuller
January 17, 2009
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I am intrigued by the caution, if not squeamishness, that ID supporters – especially Christian ones – express towards the pursuit of theodicy. I think you are missing our points. Pursue theodicy to your heart's content just don't use ID to do it.tribune7
January 17, 2009
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