Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part IV

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

This post originally began as a response to Andrew Sibley but the issues here may resonate with others wanting to reconcile science and religion, coming at it mainly from the religious side. My concern here, as an interested bystander, is that apologetics tends to be much too apologetic. Christianity, in particular, has a much stronger hand to play with regard to the support of science.

 

I am intrigued by the caution, if not squeamishness, that ID supporters – especially Christian ones – express towards the pursuit of theodicy. Since these reservations come from people on both sides of the Atlantic, they do not seem to be exclusively tied to the particular legal issues surrounding the separation of church and state in the US Constitution.

 

Maybe these reservations concern the idea that the Bible might be understood literally yet fallibly, as the theodicists seemed to do.  They read the Bible as we would a scientific treatise, namely, as some admixture of socio-historic construction (of the theorist) and timeless reality (of the theorized). Certainly our Darwinist opponents read Origin of Species in that spirit. They venerate the text and its author but they do not deny its flaws. Instead they dedicate their lives to correcting its errors and offering a better version of the original vision. Thus, Darwin is read as literal, fallible and corrigible.

 

I believe that the original 17th century Scientific Revolutionaries, including the theodicists, read the Bible exactly in this way – and would have been surprised, if not appalled, to learn that it opened the door to intense religious scepticism and even atheism over the next two centuries. After all, the likes of Newton believed that the Bible was indeed inspired by God but equally that it is an alloy text. It demands that we distinguish the divine inspiration from the inevitable noise introduced by the people originally entrusted with capturing that inspiration. To engage in this separation of wheat from chaff is to attempt to get closer to God. Of course, one might get the task horribly wrong, which might even result in eternal damnation. Nevertheless, we – as those created in the image and likeness of God – are called to engage in this risky business.

 

But note: The relevant engagement is not prayer or special revelation – but science itself. Nature’s design is not a sign that God wants to communicate with us. It is a message that has been already sent to us, and our job is to decode it and offer a fitting response – which is to say, to make the world a better place, in keeping with the divine plan. At least, if one wishes to remain a Biblical literalist and be robustly committed to science, this is how one should think about the science-religion relationship. My view is that this is how the theodicists Leibniz and Malebranche, as well as Newton and many of his illustrious successors – Whewell, Faraday, Maxwell, Kelvin – thought about the matter.

 

This is not the familiar dodge of claiming that the Bible is ‘metaphorically’ or ‘ethically’ true. Such an attitude effectively denies the need to reconcile the Book of God and the Book of Nature: We can live in a world of multiple truths for multiple occasions. On this basis, there would never have been a Scientific Revolution, whose protagonists, after all, parted ways with the Pope because of Catholicism’s fundamental distrust of humanity’s Biblical entitlement to exercise its own creative reason to arrive at a unified understanding of reality. Perhaps the most artful expression of this point about Catholicism’s latent ‘bad faith’ is Dostoevsky’s ‘Grand Inquisitor’ episode in The Brothers Karamazov.

 

But what’s the specifically religious
payoff of this line of thought? I see two major ones, though both controversial.

 

First of all, it helps to explain how Christianity managed to surpass Islam as a scientific culture – especially if we think of science the modern self-critical sense that followed in the wake of the Protestant Reformation. Muhammad is usually presented as an illiterate vessel for the divine truth recorded in the Qur’an. His lack of personal authorship, and hence lack of personal responsibility, has made it very difficult to raise the fallibility of Islam’s sacred book without courting charges of blasphemy. (Consider the fate of Averroes.) To be sure, the Qur’an gives pride of place to humanity in nature and encourages the pursuit of knowledge. But it provides little if no scope for challenging specific claims made in the sacred book itself, since everything said there is presumed to be exactly as God wanted it to be said.

 

Put another way, Muhammad is not presented as a sufficiently independent thinker to have possibly resisted or misunderstood what God said to him. In contrast, from day one, there have been disputes about whether the Biblical authors got God right, which has had major consequences, not least for which books ought to be included in the Bible. I would trace Christianity’s historic openness to the questioning of even its most sacred texts to the strength of its Judaic heritage, as Jesus himself is portrayed as a precocious master of rabbinical criticism. 

 

Second, and perhaps more provocatively, I believe that the style of  ‘scientific theology’ exemplified by theodicy helps to serve Christianity’s proselytising mission – i.e. conversion of the unbelievers. I have spent a fair amount of time (including at the Dover trial) defending the idea that certain religious beliefs have outright facilitated – not impeded – scientific discovery. But I would also make the reverse case, namely, that as more of the natural world is illuminated by hypotheses concerning the designer, thus enabling us to get a more exact understanding of the design, the closer science comes to communion with God. Indeed, if design were as illusory or superficial as Darwinists maintain, then the concept of design should not be so illuminating — even for evolutionists who continue to operate with stealth notions of design in the guise of, say, ‘adaptation’ or ‘optimisation’.

 

Nobody denies the metaphorical, even poetic, appeal of conceiving of nature as an artefact. However, an explanation is required for why turning the poetry into prose works even better, though not infallibly. That we are created in the image and likeness of the creative deity is the most straightforward explanation on offer. Of course, that doesn’t ‘prove’ God’s existence but it does provide grounds for selling the Biblical deity on scientific grounds – indeed, as the Jesuits were doing in China at the same time they were holding Galileo’s feet to the fire in Rome.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments
tribune7 @39
Please, please, please say you didn’t bring up theodicy at the Dover trial.
The Wikipedia entry for the Kitzmiller vs. Dover trial contains links to transcripts of Dr. Fuller's testimony. He seems to have been on the stand for two full days, so I didn't have time to read through the whole thing, but a search for "theodicy" didn't find any matches. The Wikipedia entry itself said that Dr. Fuller called for "affirmative action" for ID. I didn't see that term in the transcript either. Did you actually say that, Dr. Fuller? JJJayM
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
07:30 AM
7
07
30
AM
PDT
All the good conversations seem to happen while I'm asleep! One sub-thread I followed with some interest over my coffee this morning is this: tribune7 @3
ID is methodological naturalism. You cannot use methodological naturalism to answer philosophical or theological questions.
Upright BiPed @7
tribune is correct. Design is, at the very least, a conclusion of methodological naturalism. There is nothing in the sequencing of nucleotides that indicates anything other than agency. There is no chapter in Behe’s book or Demski’s filter that says that anything has acted beyond natural law.
tribune7 @31
ID does not invoke the supernatural. Why do you think saying something is designed is invoking the supernatural?
These are excellent points that clearly refute the claims of ID opponents that ID theory is religion in disguise. However, that leads me to question two other statements: tribune7 @3
ID can be used to find design. Once design is found, ID’s usefulness ends.
tribune7 @15
What ID does is take meth-nat to its limit i.e "Yep, we can conclude life is designed. What did it? Can’t say."
Why is ID theory not useful in the obvious further questions about the nature of the designer? Why can't we say more? As I noted in the thread following from Dr. Fuller's previous post in this series, design detection and knowledge of the designer are inextricably linked. First, detection of design tells us, at a minimum, that the designer exists. In fact, it tells us much more about how the designer chooses to design. The more designed artifacts we identify, the more conclusions we can draw about the designer. Second, it is impossible to detect design without making at least some working assumptions about the nature of the designer. Without some minimal assumptions, there is no reason to consider the existence of CSI as an indicator of design. Perhaps rocks are just as designed as flagella. JJJayM
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
07:20 AM
7
07
20
AM
PDT
This is just one of many examples of unintelligent / incompetent design, which makes sense in the light of evolution - Paul, if evolution were true we would never has stopped being bacteria -- the ultimate survival form.tribune7
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
07:11 AM
7
07
11
AM
PDT
StephenB -- I've been thinking some about meth-nat overnight and my arson-investigation example. Meth-nat seems appropriate to invoke there i.e. the automatic rejection of a non-natural cause. OTOH, it seems equally appropriate to recognize that meth-nat can't come close to answering all questions and these include the most important ones (motive in the arson example, for instance). Now it seems that there are those who have made meth-nat the arbiter of all truth. Would it be smart for us to embrace the good of meth-nat -- that there are times when it is right to reject non-natural causes -- to give us authority to point out that it ultimately fails with the big question. And in doing so it would be good to point out that ID can't answer all question as well.tribune7
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
07:08 AM
7
07
08
AM
PDT
Vjtorley (#41) hypothesized: "...designed features of organisms which are specific to certain species or lower-level taxa might well be the work of second-rate intelligences, which are in many cases malevolent." I have wondered for years if the Intelligent Designer may have contracted out Creation (or some portions of Creation), much as King Solomon contracted with Hiram of Tyre to build the Temple in Jerusalem. Some of these contractors or subcontractors may have "adjusted" or "tweaked" the original design, creating something which wasn't quite up to the original intelligent designer's specifications and drawings. See, for instance, http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/80500328_2cf369deb4_o.jpgPaulBurnett
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
07:03 AM
7
07
03
AM
PDT
allanius, your points are good. There is nothing wrong with Steve's goal. I just don't see any benefit in removing the compartmentalization while seeing a whole lot of trouble.tribune7
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
07:03 AM
7
07
03
AM
PDT
Allanius (#40) mentions: "...Behe’s discussions...point to a designer but also to the excellence of nature and act as confirmation of the statement that creation is “very good." And StephenB (#29) explains theodicy: "...some ID advocates...provide explanations about why a good God could allow suffering and why what “appears” to be a bad design is not really a bad design at all." How then does ID explain the "bad design" of the recurrent laryngeal nerve, which in all mammals loops around the aorta in order to get from the brain to the larynx? In the giraffe, this nerve is about fifteen feet long, whereas the larynx is about one foot from the brain. This unintelligent and even dangerous design feature makes the animal more susceptible to injury. Dr. Neil Shubin mentions this briefly in "Your Inner Fish" (http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/book.html). Matt Ridley explains it in more detail in Evolution: "The laryngeal nerve is, anatomically, the fourth vagus nerve, one of the cranial nerves. These nerves first evolved in fish-like ancestors. ... [S]uccessive branches of the vagus nerve pass, in fish, behind the successive arterial arches that run through the gills. Each nerve takes a direct route from the brain to the gills. During evolution, the gill arches have been transformed; the sixth gill arch has evolved in mammals into the ductus arteriosus, which is anatomically near to the heart. The recurrent laryngeal nerve still follows the route behind the (now highly modified) gill arch: in a modern mammal, therefore, the nerve passes from the brain, down the neck, round the dorsal aorta, and back up to the larynx." This is just one of many examples of unintelligent / incompetent design, which makes sense in the light of evolution - but which illustrate bad design if one accepts design.PaulBurnett
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
06:48 AM
6
06
48
AM
PDT
Timaeus (33): Congratulations on a very well-argued and thought-provoking post. Suppose we return to your chosen example: malaria.
After rigorous examination, let’s say the ID team comes to the conclusion that the malarial cell is a designed entity. Now, the next question is: what sort of designer would design something which is so horribly deadly, so cruel, so nasty?
Here's a working hypothesis. The most general and pervasive designed features of living organisms are the work of a Universal and Omnibenevolent Intelligence, which also designed the laws of nature; by contrast, designed features of organisms which are specific to certain species or lower-level taxa might well be the work of second-rate intelligences, which are in many cases malevolent. (Following Plantinga and C. S. Lewis, we might hypothesize that the Universal Intelligence gave them a certain degree of creative freedom, whch they subsequently abused.) If you were a medical researcher attempting to combat the malaria parasite, it would certainly be profitable to know which features of the parasite you should focus your research on trying to eliminate or modify. Fighting against a malevolent "small-i" intelligent designer makes a lot more sense than trying to eradicate features of organisms that were designed by a cosmic "big-i" Intelligent Designer.vjtorley
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
06:32 AM
6
06
32
AM
PDT
So look, Trib & Biped are absolutely right about one thing: ID as currently constituted is a silver bullet. The inference of design in irreducible complexity and fine tuning and probability is self-evident and easily communicated to the general public. In fact ID already seems to have won that argument in the court of public opinion, hands down. In that context, Behe’s discussions of irreducible complexity already do what Steve is trying to indirectly. They point to a designer but also to the excellence of nature and act as confirmation of the statement that creation is “very good.” Without straining, and staying very much within the limits of science, Behe accomplishes a great deal of good. To go beyond inference and attempt to recreate a lost thought-world is possible, I suppose. I don’t know that any of the Christian respondents here are opposed to what Steve’s trying to do in principle. But the way it is being done causes some concern—starting with the use of the hot-button term “theodicy.” Steve’s goal seems to be as large as it is noble, but a big goal needs a big strategy—and such a strategy does not yet seem to have made its appearance in the posts. Having said that, this post is better than the others. One credible strategy is simply to induce conversation, and Steve’s definitely doing that. As for Timaeus—the answer, my friend, is not blowing in the wind, but in Genesis 2 & 3.allanius
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
05:53 AM
5
05
53
AM
PDT
In fact, the point of my participation in the Dover trial was to make this precise point, since science’s alleged commitment to methodological naturalism is forever being used as the key background assumption for excluding ID from science classes. Please, please, please say you didn't bring up theodicy at the Dover trial.tribune7
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
05:38 AM
5
05
38
AM
PDT
I've just read Timaeus 33 now, and yes, I will do that as the next instalment.Steve Fuller
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
01:29 AM
1
01
29
AM
PDT
I will be brief because it’s hard to know what deserves a separate post and what can be answered here. But first on theodicy, again I realize that just because I write something, it doesn’t mean you will read it. Nevertheless, he I go again: Theodicy ain’t what it used to be. Today it’s just about God’s permission of evil in the world. Originally, that was just part of the general problem of design flaws in a divinely created nature. Theodicy is a problem not only because of the Fall of Man but also because divine creation as a whole is presented as a struggle of intelligence over matter. (After all, the creation didn’t happen all at once, did it?) And yes, theodicists held different views on how to approach this problem – and yes, the field in this large sense fell into disrepute. But in its original form, theodicy and ID were pretty much identical, and when Darwin rejects ID in the form of Paley, he is rejecting the work of a theodicist. The second point is that ‘methodological naturalism’ does not exist. There is the scientific method, which is neutral on metaphysical issues surrounding the nature of causation. And there is naturalism, which is a metaphysical doctrine about the nature of causation that may or may not be pursued by scientific means. The philosophical mirage known as ‘methodological naturalism’ is a concoction of the Neo-Darwinists based on a wildly spun Whig version of the history of science. In fact, the point of my participation in the Dover trial was to make this precise point, since science’s alleged commitment to methodological naturalism is forever being used as the key background assumption for excluding ID from science classes. This is why if you draw a sharp line between scientific and theological explanations, and then you say you’re committed to ‘methodological naturalism’, it’s hard for me to see how you’re pro-ID at all. You’re then just a D theorist (i.e. a design theorist) for whom the problem of intelligence drops out altogether. In that case, there’s no dispute with the Darwinists at all.Steve Fuller
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
12:23 AM
12
12
23
AM
PDT
The tendency of Muslims to accept their received instructions as direct from God, whereas Christians and Jews tend to view it as something they need to check on first, is well-connected to the Reformation, and the lack of anything like the Reformation in the Islamic world. At one point it was dangerous to even question what the local bishop said, and disagreeing was out of the question. The Reformation changed this; in a literal sense, it became safe to disagree with the religious authorities, and then (especially in the United States) it became a legal right. This attitude on religion spread to other areas as well, including politics, and science became a beneficiary of it; but too late for Galileo's sake. On the other hand, under Islam, there has been nothing like a Reformation. The average Joe is required not only to accept the Quran as the direct word of God, but is also expected to accept the interpretations of the clerics over him as equally authoritative. If he fails, the hotheads shout to the world that he has slandered Islam or blasphemed the prophet, and the government either directly assists his "correction," or stands idle while that gang of hotheads beats him up, burns down his house, and/or gang-rapes his wife and daughters. The consequence of this is that a Muslim's brain is expected to roll over and play dead whenever a cleric sees fit to issue an opinion on any topic. This becomes a habit and spreads to areas like politics and science. So the real cure to the Islamic world's problems is to persuade enough Muslims that their clerics' monopoly on interpreting the Quran is itself blasphemy, and that they really cannot be true Muslims if they are not ready to break with their cleric in order to follow Allah and His prophet.EvilSnack
January 18, 2009
January
01
Jan
18
18
2009
12:11 AM
12
12
11
AM
PDT
In anticipation of Timeuas at 33, Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote, "Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet."StephenB
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
11:30 PM
11
11
30
PM
PDT
(...cough)Upright BiPed
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
10:25 PM
10
10
25
PM
PDT
Prof. Fuller: There are some fascinating assertions about intellectual history in your latest post, which I would love to pursue, but I am still unsure why you think that ID's treatment of theodicy is defective and how ID could be improved by integrating its science with theodicy. And the only way I can express my confusion is through an example, which I would ask you to examine. Let's take malaria. Let us say that a team of ID theorists, each trained to a high level in some physical, biological or mathematical science, studies malaria. Its genome, structure, activities, and ecological connections are carefully examined. After rigorous examination, let's say the ID team comes to the conclusion that the malarial cell is a designed entity. Now, the next question is: what sort of designer would design something which is so horribly deadly, so cruel, so nasty? Most of the team believes that the designer is God. So now theodicy enters the picture. The team members, both those who believe in God and those who are not sure, want to know why God would make such a horrible creature. So each member of the team tries to come up with a justification of existence of the creature, supposing for the sake of argument the existence of some kind of God. The problem, however, is this: there is nothing in any of the biochemistry, cell biology, ecology, geology, math or physics courses that any of the ID team have taken that tells them how to answer this question. Questions about "why" were not on their science curricula in either undergraduate or graduate schools. In fact, they had all had it drilled into their heads that "why" questions belong in philosophy class, or English class, or theology class, not science class. So they turn to their personal religious resources. The problem is that one is a liberal Protestant, three are fundamentalists from Gospel and Baptist churches, two are members of conservative Reformed and Presbyterian churches respectively, two are ultra-conservative, pre-Vatican II Catholics, another is a swinging liberal Hans Kung Catholic, another is a conservative Low Anglican, one is a conservative Muslim, one is an Orthodox Jew, one a secular Jewish agnostic, one is an Indian Buddhist, and one believes in a Platonic Demiurge who is not omnipotent. So how does this religiously incoherent ID team go about producing a coherent theodicy regarding malaria? Suppose that the ten team members who are religiously conservative manage to agree on a common theodicy. What if the Buddhist and the agnostic and the Demiurgist are unconvinced by it, and say that there is no need for any theodicy, because there is no need to suppose an all-powerful God whose failure to overcome evil needs justifying? Do they get outvoted by majority of conservative and orthodox religious members? And if they resent that, do they quit the team in protest, claiming that ID is just creationism in a cheap tuxedo, and that all its protestations that it is faith-neutral are lies? Will not such a split destroy the scientific credibility of the team’s final report? Or what if the conservative Jew and Muslim come up with a different theodicy from that of the Christians? Do they resign in protest, with the Jew perhaps alleging an anti-Semitic bias in the Christian theology, and the Muslim perhaps alleging Christian theological imperialism against the Muslim faith? Again, will this schism not scuttle any scientific value the project might have had? But to make it easier, suppose the team consists only of the ten Christians. The problem remains. Christians will still disagree about theodicy because they have different conceptions of God, different ways of relating the two Testaments, different ways of reading the texts (literal, allegorical, etc.). The conservatives will outvote the liberals, or the Protestants will outvote the Catholics, or else individual differences will prevail over group affinities so that the committee will become a hung jury. Under such circumstances, I don't see how the ID team can press forward and finish its report. But even if they could agree on a theodicy, in what sense would their theodicy depend on the scientific work they did in studying the malarial cell? What they learned from their science was that the malarial cell was designed, and horribly efficient at doing its work. When they asked themselves why such a thing should exist, they found that they immediately had to abandon their science and offer personal opinions (albeit opinions guided by their individual traditions) about why God would have done what he did, given the sort of God that he was. In the light of this example, how can theodicy ever hope to become, not merely an optional adjunct to ID science, but an essential part of ID science? How could it ever follow inevitably from the science? Or are you asserting that the science must hang inevitably on the theodicy? In the latter case, will the scientific procedures of a Christian who thinks that God is love (as 1 John says) differ from the scientific procedures of a Christian who thinks that God sometimes deliberately makes evil (as Isaiah at one point says)? Is that a tolerable result – different rules of science for different faiths? Your writing is on a high and general level. You say very interesting things about the history of ideas and about the theoretical interpenetration of science and faith. But your remarks about theodicy are not giving us examples of how we should proceed differently on a practical level. And since science is not just a theoretical but a practical activity (of hypothesis forming, experiment, observation, inference, etc.), I don’t yet see how your discussion about theodicy is guiding us toward the improvement of ID as science. May I suggest that you write your next column directly addressing the question of “how ID should be done in conjunction with theodicy”? And that you base your discussion on a practical example with implications for theodicy, e.g., the apparent bad design of some creature or organ, or the good but apparently cruel design of the parasitic creatures that shocked Darwin’s religious sensibilities? They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and an example is worth many more. T.Timaeus
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
09:41 PM
9
09
41
PM
PDT
StephenB - very good answer in 29. Something to ponder is that when an ID critic brings up the bad design argument, it is the ID critic who is invoking the supernatural.tribune7
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
09:23 PM
9
09
23
PM
PDT
Paul --If ID invokes the supernatural, then it is not science, by definition. ID does not invoke the supernatural. Why do you think saying something is designed is invoking the supernatural?tribune7
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
09:16 PM
9
09
16
PM
PDT
-----Upright Biped: "The point is not to shuffle definitions; it is to return the power to the evidence, and out of the hands of those who subvert the evidence for ideological reasons." Agreed. That's a nice way of putting it. We seem to be on the same page.StephenB
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
08:23 PM
8
08
23
PM
PDT
NZer: "Perhaps I am a bit slow, but in 100 words or less, what exactly is the connection between theodicy and ID?" Some ID critics complain that the universe wasn’t really designed because, if it had been, the designer would not have arranged things so “badly,” meaning there would have been no suffering. For them, a “bad” design constitutes “no” design. ID insists that the question is irrelevant to science, which it is. Still, critics will not leave the problem alone, so some ID advocates humor them and provide explanations about why a good God could allow suffering and why what “appears” to be a bad design is not really a bad design at all. That is the study of theodicy. (99 words)StephenB
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
08:19 PM
8
08
19
PM
PDT
Steve, I stand corrected as well. ....however If scientists following appropriate methods have found agency as a rational answer to the question, then without mixing words, the goal of that answer is to be given to the people whom science must serve. That giving of the answer is not held up by natural science, after all, it was arrived at by natural science. There is nothing in design detection that requires a supernatural agent, only an agent. The point is not to shuffle definitions; it is to return the power to the evidence, and out of the hands of those who subvert the evidence for ideological reasons.Upright BiPed
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
08:12 PM
8
08
12
PM
PDT
I wonder if, when the Big Bang was proposed, there were attempts to get Lemaitre to admit that he 'really' was proposing a theological creation concept.nullasalus
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
07:52 PM
7
07
52
PM
PDT
Paul,
So are we now publicly admitting that the Intelligent Designer is God? Isn’t that still officially denied?
How did you get that from what I wrote? My point is that theodicy and ID are related but distinct fields of study. Did you not read my first comment in this thread?crandaddy
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
07:48 PM
7
07
48
PM
PDT
Tribune7 wrote: "...one must avoid invoking the supernatural in investigating observable/measurable phenomena. ID does that, of course." If ID invokes the supernatural, then it is not science, by definition. Or are you separating the intelligent designer from the intelligent creator? One is supernatural and the other isn't? Crandaddy wrote: "...both ID and theodicy are fields of study that are concerned with the intelligibility of design in nature. ID seeks to determine its presence; theodicy evaluates it from a theological perspective, seeking to reconcile God’s designing activity in nature with divine goodness." So are we now publicly admitting that the Intelligent Designer is God? Isn't that still officially denied?PaulBurnett
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
07:38 PM
7
07
38
PM
PDT
----tribune 7: "It is also important for us to recognize that one must avoid invoking the supernatural in investigating observable/measurable phenomena. ID does that, of course." Yes, indeed. That point is certainly worth reiterating when necessary.StephenB
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
07:35 PM
7
07
35
PM
PDT
tribune7, Methodological naturalism does not permit mind-first explanations. The methodology seeks to reduce mental causes to non-mental causes. To be sure, MN is a very fruitful approach to science when used correctly. Things go awry, however, when MN is stipulated to be the only valid approach to science. NZer and Upright BiPed, I'll defer to Prof. Fuller for a more in-depth explanation, but the way I see it, both ID and theodicy are fields of study that are concerned with the intelligibility of design in nature. ID seeks to determine its presence; theodicy evaluates it from a theological perspective, seeking to reconcile God's designing activity in nature with divine goodness.crandaddy
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
07:14 PM
7
07
14
PM
PDT
Steve Fuller, I was wondering, how exactly does Theodicy relate at all with ID? Theodicy seems, to me, more of a theological issue, rather than scientific. Don't get me wrong, you may be completely onto something, but I'm confused nonetheless. It could be too that I just haven't read all that you've written. (At least, I don't think I've read parts 2 and 3 of your Science and God "series".) Oh, and by the way, a really cool person who likes to connect the God of the Bible with nature is a man named Gerald Schroeder. I haven't read any of his books, but even his website (http://www.geraldschroeder.com/index.html) is cool! lolDomoman
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
07:02 PM
7
07
02
PM
PDT
Methodological naturalism insists that science is and must always be “exclusively” about natural causes. That is why it is anti-ID. OK StephenB, I stand corrected. But some things to consider: the secularists have made meth-nat synonymous with science. This leaves us with a conundrum since ID is natural science as has been historically understood. We must fight to make clear, then that meth-nat is not synonymous with natural science since the battle is leaving the realm of the pursuit of truth and becoming one of definitions and investigation-inhibiting dogma. It is also important for us to recognize that one must avoid invoking the supernatural in investigating observable/measurable phenomena. ID does that, of course. It might be wise if we insist that be the demarcation of science/meth-nat/whatever.tribune7
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
06:35 PM
6
06
35
PM
PDT
----Upright Biped: "The point of my post is that ID should not change its central goal – the removal of concealment around the inference to Design." I have registered my protests about Steve Fuller's thesis many times, for many of the same reasons that you have cited. Still, As I have stated many times, the "goal" is that one which is established by the individual scientist, not his critics, not his friends, and not even the ID community. It is his affair and his alone to decide which methods he will use and how he will preserve their integrity. Scientists don't need rules to tighten up their methods. If they don't know how to isolate one component from another in order to achieve a valid result, no regulation from the outside will help them. Translation---no rules from nobody--that includes no worries about "theodicy" or "characteristics of the designer" as Steve Fuller would have it You say you agree with my statement that methodological naturalism is anti-ID, but you also say you agree with tribune 7, who said that ID is methodological naturalism. I don't know how to process that. Do we have a problem with definitions here. From Steven C. Meyer, the premiere ID spokesman and educator: “Methodological naturalism is a role of scientific matter that says that scientists should proceed as if philosophical naturalism is true. Now, if that's assumed, what that means is that students will only be provided with the evidence that supports the idea that there are no causal designs in nature. So in its effect on students, methodological naturalism is not significantly different than philosophical naturalism because they will only be presented with that evidence that supports a naturalistic position.” ……”Basically methodological naturalism says scientists should proceed as if there is no design in nature. So that prevents the Darwinian claim that design is an illusion from being tested. If you make the claim that design is an illusion, the only thing that could prove that you are mistaken is some evidence that would show that at least some of the design is real. If there can be by definition no such evidence, then there is no way to ever refute the claim that design in nature is an illusion." ..."It's not, by the way, that the Darwinian claim itself is unscientific. It's perfectly scientific and it's perfectly testable. It is rather joining the Darwinian claim to methodological naturalism that insulates it from being tested because it means that only the evidence that supports the theory can be presented, not the evidence that would count against it." First things first. Is everyone clear on the definition of methdological naturalism.StephenB
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
06:15 PM
6
06
15
PM
PDT
NZer, it doesn't.Upright BiPed
January 17, 2009
January
01
Jan
17
17
2009
05:35 PM
5
05
35
PM
PDT
1 2 3

Leave a Reply