Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

ID and the Science of God: Part VI

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To test the real difference that theodicy makes to ID, Timaeus posed a thought experiment (see post 33) involving a team of scientists of various religious persuasions who conclude that the malarial cell is a designed entity. However, the scientists’ ability to infer why a deity would have created such a malignant cell is impeded by their religious differences, which have no natural resolution. Moreover, Timaeus wonders, even if after much discussion these differences were somehow resolved into a common theodicy, to what extent would that theodicy have been based on their scientific work or, for that matter, the theodicy would be capable of justifying that work. The implied conclusion of this thought experiment is that theodicy is not a necessary feature of ID’s conceptual framework but a controversial add-on.

First, a technical point: One shouldn’t assume – as the thought experiment does — that each religion (or even each denomination) has its own unique theodicy. The same theodicies can be found across many religions. With that in mind, let me illustrate two ways in which the conduct of science and views of theodicy provide mutual support.

Sociologically speaking, in the case of malaria, a ‘folk theodicy’ is already built into the science, insofar as malaria is treated specifically as a problem of disease control and eradication (i.e. a problem in medicine) rather than itself a solution to a larger ecological problem (i.e. how to cull the surplus population of poorly adapted humans). Malaria is a challenge from which humanity may learn and ultimately overcome – say, through improved living conditions, vaccines, etc. While modern medicine rests on secular scientific foundations, its basic hostility to anything that threatens human life is a residue of an Abrahamic world-view.

In contrast, a strict Darwinian rooted in Malthus’ views of population control would find this ‘folk theodicy’ a bit sentimental and might even object to the very term ‘disease’ as displaying an anthropocentric prejudice against the effectiveness of malaria-carrying mosquitoes as vehicles of natural selection. Indeed, the ‘racial hygiene’ movement in German medical faculties in the half century leading up to Hitler decried the proliferation of vaccines as creating ‘counter-selective’ environments that threatened ecological instability in the long term. For them, mosquitoes should be allowed to do the job for which they were designed.

There are subtler distinctions to be drawn within both general paradigms, in terms of, say, whether (in the case of the first theodicy) some small level of malaria would be tolerable or (in the second theodicy) some high level of malaria would be intolerable. However, the implications of the theodicy for the science are clear: Medicine is not a branch of environmental science in the first case, but it is in the second. More generally, I believe that theodicy, even if only in an unreflective ‘folk’ form, is presumed in our understanding of how scientific disciplines relate to each other.

Comments
Good point trib.StephenB
January 25, 2009
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StephenB, great post at 26. I guess I should also add to my earlier post that natural suffering teaches empathy -- bad things happen to ordinary people which include you and me -- and gives us reason and opportunity to show kindness.tribune7
January 25, 2009
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----Professor Fuller: "Before you can talk about design, you need to embed this ‘integrated complexity’ in some system, in terms of which you can talk about the complexity’s ‘function’, ‘purpose’ – what it is designed FOR." Let’s speculate about some possible purpose scenarios and try to link it to science. [A] There was no designer, and life has no purpose. The universe is just as absurd as the radical existentialists claim that it is. [B] An incompetent designer fashioned a flawed design. So, the creator, if ethical, must apologize and say, “oops!, sorry about all that suffering. Why not take the good with the bad.” In any case, the “purpose” of the universe is a failed experiment. It was just one of those things. There is no hereafter. [C] A competent yet sadistic designer fashioned an evil design. So, the creator uses his helpless creatures solely for his own entertainment. Our purpose is to be degraded and thrown away. As the famous bumper sticker claims, “Life is a bitch and then you die.” [D] A competent, loving designer created a universe characterized by free will, drama, and soul-making, all of which prepare us for the next world in which there will be no suffering. Meanwhile, what we endure is a compensation for offending Divine justice after “the fall.” At the same time, the Creator uses suffering as a means of transforming mediocre creatures into noble ones, allowing them to learn wisdom, compassion, and courage. All the while, God stays partly hidden so that faith as well as reason can play a role in human development. [E] Plug in your own story if you don’t like any of the above. Now, let’s suppose the ID scientist wants to probe the purpose of the design. Surely, such design is either nonexistent, or is meant to serve one of the aforementioned purposes. Let’s even assume that, through some unexplained miracle, the scientist discovers EVERYTHING about the creator’s process, step by step. We now know ALL the facts about the origin of life, including time, means, place, and circumstances---I mean everything!. So, the big question persists: Why does the process exist at all? Let’s say that the ID scientists really go for broke, transform their science into an operational theodicy, and establish a probability chart with respect to our purpose scenarios such that [A] promises a likelihood of one chance in a googleplex, [B] holds forth at about one chance in a thousand, [C] appears as a fifty-fifty proposition, and [D] carries a seventy-five percent probability. So, let’s go ahead a read the report’s executive summary: (Followed by my comments) -----“Based on our twenty-five year study, we have concluded that the big bang is consistent with the Biblical principle which hold’s that God said, “Let there be light.” (Wait, we already knew that something cannot come from nothing. So, science simply bids us to return to the responsible philosophical principles we abandoned when we started worshiping science. Meanwhile, multitudes of scientists now are positing infinite multiple universes---proof that even when science does uncover a profound truth about the source of nature’s laws, they [and the academy] are not interested if it means that they must also accept the lawgiver). -----“Further, the evidence indicates that archangels and dominions uphold the laws of nature under the loving supervision of thrones. We further conclude that God has ordained it to be so, and that all previous claims that the universe powers itself are invalid. (Wait, philosophy taught us two-thousand years ago that all movement must be explained. It is one of the first principles of right reason. Still, the majority will reject the point and promote the notion that an mindless “principle in nature” can create a universe) -----“Finally, we hold that, as a result of the fall, man’s intellect was darkened and his will was weakened. As a result, he must now struggle to understand that which was once easily apprehended. Further, he now has an inborn tendency to do evil and must struggle against his own lower nature in order to restore some semblance of humanity. We further conclude that every human malady can be traced back to one event in history and that the functional integrity of the universe was designed to facilitate a restoration to its original order and that the creator anticipated all these combinations and permutations in advance.” (Wait that idea has already been rejected by Western culture and replaced with the cult of self-esteem and the philosophy of nihilism) Meanwhile, sciences technical achievements have outrun its ethics by a country mile, and few people seem to mind. Would anyone care to clone human beings as sex slaves? Step right up, our scientists are ready. Is anyone interested in designing a human pig hybrid? Have no fear. It’s in the works and government funding is on the way. If we really wanted wisdom and guidance we would honor “natural moral law,” which is written in every human heart. That is the closest we will ever get to the mind of God. Even if we do the theoretically impossible and uncover a theodicy of science, it can do no more than send us back to Plato, Aquinas, the Bible, and the Church for further instruction. We are not looking for answers, we are looking for loopholes.StephenB
January 25, 2009
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But maybe you can help me understand yours if you tell me how this victory you anticipate is going to come about, especially given the limited way in which you (and Timaeus) interpret ID. Those who don't want to honor God use science as their excuse. ID definitively strips this from them. Granted they will find some other excuse -- maybe even point to the inability of ID to ID the designer, since scripture, after all, says most will choose the broad path But with ID, the gifts of science and reason will return to their rightful place as supporters of good and those who honestly seek truth will not be led astray by those who misuse them. Which is a good thing. Now, I'll tell you one thing that can't be done and that is to reconcile childhood cancer with the goodness of God. With the sinfulness of man, yes, but not with God's goodness. Consider this -- would there be more or less suffering without natural suffering? If nobody ever got sick, if food was delivered to you by angels when ever you wanted, and you were never too cold or too hot? I think there would be much, much more since the vast majority of suffering is caused by humans against other humans. Natural suffering forces people to work together to overcome common obstacles (and the degree to which this work is willingly done the less the suffering caused by natured, please note). So it seems there are only two forces to stop the evils man is capable of conceiving -- nature or reconciliation with God. According to Scripture most people will willfully reject reconciliation.tribune7
January 25, 2009
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tribune7, "Here is something to ponder: what does perfect mean and who gets to set the standard?" Can we humans ever perceive an un-designed universe, animal, landscape? Isn't All and Everything either designed or not designed?Michael Haanel
January 25, 2009
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Tribune 7 You and I must live in different worlds. But maybe you can help me understand yours if you tell me how this victory you anticipate is going to come about, especially given the limited way in which you (and Timaeus) interpret ID.Steve Fuller
January 25, 2009
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Timaeus and Dr. Fuller Timaeus, great post at 19!! Dr. Fuller, the materialists made their mark on the claim that their views were based on objective, "scientific" findings. ID shatters their claims under the rules they set. Bringing questions as to whether the design is good or bad into this very small arena would cause us to forfeit a game that we are going to win. Our opinion is irrelevant as to whether the design is good as Timaeus pointed out. And remember a good fuse breaks.tribune7
January 25, 2009
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Jerry, And Carthage was not the only place. tribune7
January 25, 2009
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Timaeus, Design is a normatively stronger notion than ‘integrated complexity’, which is only about mathematical patterns. Before you can talk about design, you need to embed this ‘integrated complexity’ in some system, in terms of which you can talk about the complexity’s ‘function’, ‘purpose’ – what it is designed FOR. And how do you select the appropriate system perspective? Well, theodicy offers a menu of possibilities, and Darwinism itself descends from one of them. While design can be specified in mathematical terms, it is not a purely mathematical notion. Because ID theorists have been reluctant to admit the normative assumptions of their argument, they have been easily sidelined by mathematically adept critics who reduce complexity-based claims about design to claims about mere patterns that could have been generated in any number of ways without a prior plan. And the critics are right if the arguments for ID are exclusively based on the formal properties of things, as the current ‘butterfly collecting’ approach ID tends to favour. So my view is that simply to believe that nature is designed presupposes that we have a sense not only of the difference between design and not-design but also of good and bad design. ID tends to focus on the former contrast, but the latter is equally relevant, especially in terms of how we humans fit in the overall design of nature: Is bad design simply our failure to see the higher good it serves, or is it a call for us to finish the job God started? Again, a question for theodicy. And just because widely different answers to these questions have proposed, it doesn’t follow that there aren’t better or worse answers. Contrary to your suggestion, the Royal Society banned the discussion of politics, religion and ethics at its inception, long before there was there a general agreement over what was ‘objectively true’ from a scientific standpoint. They banned the discussions because they believed that no resolution could be reached on politics, religion and ethics in mid-17th century England without threatening a rather fragile political order. That’s not an admission of the relativism of values but simply a pragmatic decision to engage in some self-censorship. In that sense, the Royal Society was motivated much as ID people today are who feel burned by how the Establishment Clause has been applied and so want to avoid associating ID with anything that goes beyond ‘the evidence’, understood with as little theoretical interpretation as possible. In any case, it’s clear that the major players throughout the history of the Royal Society were motivated by quite distinctive theological views, which they kept out of sight for purposes of the Society’s activities. This is not to deny that people of all faiths can understand, grasp and accept the same scientific truths, but I don’t believe that all faiths motivate the pursuit of those truths equally well. Moreover, it’s clear from the historical record that not even all versions of the Abrahamic faiths help science equally well, and this is why to open the door to theodicy in ID is frankly to court considerable theological disagreement. But in the context of science education, where we need to motivate students to devote their lives to the peculiar activity that is science, we should risk discussions of the larger purpose that pursuit might serve. Our ability to do so would be a measure of just how much we have matured over the 350 years since the founding of the Royal Society.Steve Fuller
January 25, 2009
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Prof. Fuller (#3): I agree with you that Darwinism can be understood as secularized theodicy. What I don't understand is how knowing this helps ID to formulate its theories or investigative methods. I understand why you think that ID needs some overarching theoretical perspective, and cannot settle for being simply a set of interesting observations about apparent design. But why that overarching theoretical perspective has to be a theodicy, or any part of theology, entirely escapes me. ID says: If there is a designer, then we would expect to see integrated complexity all over the place; so let's go out and investigate nature and see if we do in fact find integrated complexity all over the place. Why do we need to raise questions of theodicy in order either to ask or to answer the question whether or not nature displays integrated complexity? We need to raise questions of theodicy only if we find that nature IS designed, but that we don't like the design. The question of whether or not we like the design is both logically and chronologically posterior to the question whether or not there is a design to like or dislike. This makes design detection, both in its methods and conclusions, independent of theodicy. Further, our repugnance to this or that design feature in nature reflects our aesthetic, moral and theological tastes, and varies from person to person and from culture to culture, and hence is scientifically irrelevant. The great claim of modern science (which may be false, but nonetheless is its claim) is that it has produced a body of knowledge that is trans-religious, trans-cultural, trans-moral, and trans-political. Water boils at the same temperature at sea level whether you are a Hindu or a Muslim. The law of gravity holds Christians and pagans to the earth with equal firmness. Planets travel in ellipses even though the Greeks preferred circles. The world is the way it is, and our likes and dislikes are no part of that description. This is why the Royal Society from the beginning eschewed all questions of religion and politics. That policy only made sense in the light of the belief that nature is the way it is, outside of all human preferences. Repugnance to bad design is also practically irrelevant. If I have a horrible disease, I want my doctor to understand the design of the one-celled creature that is causing it, so he can throw a monkey wrench into its works with the appropriate chemicals, radiation, antibiotics, etc. I'm not the slightest bit interested in my doctor's theological opinion why God allows such horrible diseases to exist. He is no more qualified to answer that question than a clergyman who dropped biology in the 10th grade. Further, even if the doctor has the right theological opinion, that opinion will not in any way affect his diagnosis or prescription, which will be based entirely on physicology, biochemistry, pharmocology, etc., not theology. Similarly, I don't ask my auto mechanic why the automakers put out cars that need to be repaired so often; I just want him to know how my car is designed, so that he can fix it. If I want to know why the auto industry puts out "evil" cars, I don't ask a mechanic, I ask a "theodicist" like Ralph Nader. You seem to be suggesting that the practice of science and the study of theodicy need to be integrated into a seamless unity. If this is what you are suggesting, I disagree. A mechanic does not need to understand the arguments of Ralph Nader to do his work, and a physician does not need to understand the arguments of Paley (or of Darwin) to do his. Nor does a design theorist need any prior opinions about God (other than openness to the possibility that some sort of designer exists) to conduct a comprehensive study of design in nature. In fact, I would suggest that what biological theories of design need is not more theodicy, but more mathematics. The overarching theory of design you are looking for will require vastly more mathematics than most biology professors have typically taken. First-year calculus is hardly enough. Probability theory, combinatorics, 3-D geometry, topology, engineering and architectural mathematical concepts, computer programming concepts -- all of these, especially if integrated under a broadly Platonic conception of the nature of mathematics (rather than the purely utilitarian concept of mathematics held by most working biologists), will contribute to the broad theoretical perspective you are talking about. Already Michael Denton and Richard Sternberg have divined this. I for one don't want to see a wave of Christian biologists, mostly with rank amateur status in theology, dabbling in theodicy. I'd rather they learned their math better, and particularly I'd rather they recovered the Platonic and Galilean insight about the mathematical form of physical reality. If biologists can be trained to view mathematics in this way, Darwinism will soon be history, because no one imbued with the true spirit of mathematics could find Darwinism a plausible explanation for the design of life. T.Timaeus
January 25, 2009
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tribune7, There is a cemetery in Carthage where first born sons were buried after they were supposedly sacrificed. They were sacrificed for good luck. There is a story that Hannibal was threatened by his father that he would sacrifice him if he didn't promise to take revenge on the Romans. It was a promise he lived up to.jerry
January 24, 2009
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And concerning theodicy, the question as to the existence of suffering is addressed in the Bible. "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" The Lord's answered "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life." If you believe in Jesus, you don't have to go beyond this with regard to theodicy. You know God is good because of His commands and His sacrifice I wonder what kind of world it would be without natural suffering from disease and earthquakes and such. Paradise? I don't think so. I think people would find a way to rationalize burning babies alive for good luck. It's something that has happened before in relatively advanced society. Or maybe instead of putting them in flames we'd just burn their lungs with a saline solution.tribune7
January 24, 2009
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Steve Fuller said- "we may be designed to complete some of the imperfections in nature and bring God’s design to complete fruition" I'm glad you said that, because it coincides exactly with the concept of Tikkun Olam, which can be translated as repairing or perfecting the world. I like the idea because it's as if God has given us a role in Creation itself. I had been meaning to bring that up.Davem
January 24, 2009
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If the Bible didn't tell us otherwise, most likely we would think that this is how the world is supposed to be. Also, if there was no death, we probably would have run out of room by now.Davem
January 24, 2009
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All and Everything is perfect Here is something to ponder: what does perfect mean and who gets to set the standard?tribune7
January 24, 2009
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Michael Haanel said "Christian Scientists believe that All and Everything is perfect, because everything is God’s creation. If you are ill, or not seeing IT that way, then that is “error.” " I am not denying that your statement is true. That is why I use the term "apparent imperfections." The so called imperfections are from our point of view and may not reflect imperfections from God's point of view. The term I came up with to describe the theodicy issue is the "Perfect Imperfect" Which is why I found the discussion of the "Best of All Possible Worlds" intriguing. Let me give an example in terms we can all understand and that is ecology. If any or a few of the many thousands of organisms which make up an ecology became the best they could possibly be to use a current advertising theme, then they might destroy the ecology with their success and eventually themselves. But the fact that they are sub-optimal is optimal for them. So they are the optimal sub-optimal.jerry
January 24, 2009
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Stephen B: Your second post deals more specifically with matters of theodicy that I will pick up in a separate post, since they are related to the main theme I am working on.Steve Fuller
January 24, 2009
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StephenB: First, I’m glad you grant that by knowing natural law, we have some access to the divine mind. Historically that was an important concession in terms of empowering people to do both science and politics in senses that broke away from religious authority (with the stress on ‘authority’ here). The additional business about everything having to fit together is important for raising a set of issues: a) things may not be perfectly designed when seen alone but make sense as part of some larger design package to which it contributes (this is important to counter Darwinists); b) we may be designed to complete some of the imperfections in nature and bring God’s design to complete fruition (this is how Newton’s theory became a basis for the Industrial Revolution). As for innovation, unpredictability, etc., it is unclear whether they reflect real novelty or simply our current ignorance of how design works, which may be alleviated through further inquiry. I don’t see any need to declare a priori that certain things are simply beyond rational comprehension. On a related point, it makes no sense praying for ID to be graced by a ‘genius’. Dembski and Behe are very smart and very bold guys but what they did – as Darwin, etc. did – is to take ideas already in currency in one domain and transfer them to another to bring together phenomena that had been previously seen as separate. (In Darwin’s case, I’m thinking mainly about his generalisation of Malthus’s theory of human population control as the principle of natural selection.) ID simply needs more of that activity going on by more people – which will in the short term continue to generate enormous controversy that will life unpleasant for those concerned. After all, the time that elapsed between Copernicus and Newton – the beginning and the culmination of the Scientific Revolution -- was almost 150 years. Even in the case of Darwin, it took a good 75-80 years before his theory of evolution is unequivocally regarded as the cornerstone of biological science. My guess is that the ID revolution will take less time – but it requires more people to get actively involved on the theoretical end.Steve Fuller
January 24, 2009
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jerry you say, "I think we all will admit that there are apparent imperfections in the designs we see in nature. The question is are those imperfections real or only apparent?" Christian Scientists believe that All and Everything is perfect, because everything is God's creation. If you are ill, or not seeing IT that way, then that is "error."Michael Haanel
January 23, 2009
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I think we all will admit that there are apparent imperfections in the designs we see in nature. The question is are those imperfections real or only apparent? Steve Fuller in his presentation at Oxford laid out near the end a potential interpretation of the theodicy problem but this interpretation is not in sync with traditional Christian theology. I also assume that it is not in sync with Judeo theology or Islamic theology. But I am not knowledgeable of either. So what can we learn about the designer by both the designs implemented and the imperfections that accompany the designs. My guess that discussions of both the types of designs implemented and the types of imperfections could be part of the ID agenda and as such reflect somewhat or maybe a great deal on the nature of the designer.jerry
January 23, 2009
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The implied conclusion of this thought experiment is that theodicy is not a necessary feature of ID’s conceptual framework
This single sentence fragment sums up about 10,000 words in six articles.DaveScot
January 23, 2009
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How much more information about God’s character do you want science to provide?
It's helpful when we can determine science harmonizes with something in the Bible, or at best doesn't contradict it. But it's still the Bible providing evidence of God's character (and Jesus' also) and not science. From a religious standpoint, science is nearly irrelevant. It gives circumstantial reasons to believe in the Bible as a whole. But neither ID not any other known scientific method are going to support the specific beliefs of any religion (unless that religion is based on scientific knowledge.) Right now there's a scientific orthodoxy that denies the possibility of a creator. If we follow this course of using science to figure out God, then in 100 years the scientific community will accept a creator, and they'll make up something off-the-wall that doesn't resemble anything you or I believe in. That will be the new consensus, and we'll be right back where we started.ScottAndrews
January 23, 2009
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“Simply accumulating a stock of cases that point to design is not science: It’s butterfly collecting. … Darwinism is itself a secularised theodicy. ID needs one or more theories that systematically interrelate various sorts of evidence to provide a worthy competitor.” May I disagree? Biology really IS “butterfly collecting”. It’s observation, exploration, the electron microscope. But we’re still under the pall of theoretical physics and Karl Popper. Well, physics may be theory, but biology is description. There is no theory of biology—Dobzhanski to the contrary. Biologists describe what they see. [Now before this elicits outrage, let me say that all disciplines use observation and reason—it’s just that biology is heavy on the former and physics on the latter.] But you do bring up interesting points. I’ve always suspected that materialism can be blamed in part on the theologians. The theologians have been reductionists, reducing God to a set of transcendant omnis, divorcing him from Genesis 1:26-28, and eventually for many casting him from reality itself. Benjamin Wiker’s “Moral Darwinism” does a great job of tracing one strand of materialism’s story, someday I’d like to see a good historian investigate this other, the role of the theologians in the rise of modern materialism.Rude
January 23, 2009
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Steve, let me put it another way: [A]Intelligent design theory is parallel to the creative innovation that Mozart summoned to compose his music. [B] Darwin's theory is parallel to the laws pertaining to the way his piano hammer strikes the strings to create a musical sound. From what I gather, you want to explain the [A] phenomenon in [B] terms. If we cannot discover the innovative "process" in the mind of a musical genius, how are we to discover the innovative process in the mind of God. Further, it would seem to be the case that God is not bound by his own laws. Thus, any theodicy that presumes to justify God by simply gaining further knowledge about "processes" cannot possibly present an accurate theodicy without taking the non-scientific element into account. It matters a great deal whether or not God's first creation was spoiled by man's indiscretions. Can science validate the originality of original sin? If, on the other hand, Christian theology is wrong, that is, if God used a cruel process such as life and death cycles to form his creation, everything turns on whether he had a good reason for it that we cannaot discern. Does science have the tools to find a hidden favorable theodicy in back of nature's apparent cruelty? If not, then what is the point? Anything short of a comprehensive answer is no answer at all. In fact, an incomplete answer would seem only to replace ignorance with error, and I submit that the latter is a greater liability than the former, meaning that we could assign to a benevolent God a malicious motive or, for that matter, the reverse. You seem to want science to do theology's job. If that was possible, we would have no need for theology.StephenB
January 23, 2009
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Steve, that is only possible if the designer is predictable in ways parallel emininently predictable natural laws. Once design and creative innovation enter the picture, things change. Insofar as the designer provided natural laws, we already know the mind of the designer to that extent. That is a lot to know. Inasmuch as we do not yet know (scientifically, that is) why they are the way they are, we don't know the mind of the designer. But notice when I approach the problem of theodicy, modestly and in a fragmented way to be sure, your main concern about justifying the ways of God to man suddenly gets subordinated to your concern about functional integrity. Are you now insisting on a theodicy that also conforms to elements of predictability. You seem to be setting the bar awfully high here. Even so, an earlier point on another thread still holds. If, ID can transform itself into something more extravagant, and I am not saying that it can, it can only do so when some genius comes along and provides the apprpriate paradigm just as Dembski and Behe provided a paradigm for the more modest approach. Until that happens, it does no good to suggest that the "ID movement ought to do it." It can't do it until the genius makes is possible. What about that?StephenB
January 23, 2009
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StephenB I think your game is a bit different from mine because you seem to want to want a consensus that I don’t believe is necessary here. There’s nothing scientific about getting people to settle on a bargain basement notion of design that doesn’t stray far beyond the evidence. Yes, it avoids fights but it doesn’t promote inquiry. Science makes progress when someone comes along with a theory that makes sense of the widest range of relevant evidence. That means operating with a framework that forces you to think beyond bits of evidence and show how they might be linked together. Simply accumulating a stock of cases that point to design is not science: It’s butterfly collecting. Part of the point of my response to Timaeus is that Darwinism is itself a secularised theodicy. ID needs one or more theories that systematically interrelate various sorts of evidence to provide a worthy competitor. While I’m no big fan of Paley’s approach, he at least was thinking along the appropriate lines.Steve Fuller
January 23, 2009
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OK Steve, you win. I’ll play. Science has already provided plenty indications about God’s character. Let’s try a few of them on for size. -----Physicists have speculated about the weight of the stone at the time of Christ’s resurrection and have concluded that the Roman guards could have lifted it. So science, (speculative science at least) tells us that Jesus Christ, who claimed to be God, most likely rose from the dead. I trust that no one will propose that flying spaghetti monsters rise from the dead. -----Medical doctors have aided the Catholic Church in its canonization process by determining whether or not a medical miracle can be attributed to the special intervention of a saint. So, science confirms that God is merciful and even willing to suspend the laws of nature from time to time as a means of proving it. -----Medical doctors are perplexed by the phenomenon known as the “Stigmatist.” Apparently, some saints have asked to participate in the sufferings of Christ to show their appreciation for his sufferings. It seems that their prayers were answered in ways that are empirically verifiable. So, it seems that God will allow some of his creatures to do his heavy lifting. -----Statisticians have calculated the improbability that 459 Old Testament prophecies about Jesus Christ would become realized as historical events as reported in the New Testament. So science confirms that Jesus Christ is most likely God, and, while being supremely powerful, is also humble enough to dispense with using that power and to degrade himself by living with his own creatures even to the point allowing them to torture him to death. How much more information about God’s character do you want science to provide? Here is a prediction: You will most likely say, against my arguments (about which I am quite serious), that you are not convinced that science has accomplished those things that I attribute to it. So, the next step back would be to suggest that science shows that God designed the universe, (equally evident) a point that I suspect you would reject as well. Thus, the final step back is to indicate that at least that a designer was involved at some level, and it may not have even been God. Welcome to ID and its self-consciously modest claims, a refreshing balm for agnostics who reject everything else and who strive mightlily to reject even that.StephenB
January 23, 2009
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I am now at a loss for words, which in this case is a fortunate turn of events.Upright BiPed
January 22, 2009
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