Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Inferring onward, from design to designer

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One of the notorious talking points used by inveterate objectors to design theory, is that it is about stealth creationism. Closely tied, is the suggestion (or, assumption) that the claim that design inference on empirical sign only warrants inference to design as process is a dishonest stalking horse.

Given a long saddening track record of career and hobbyist objectors, unsurprisingly, that is false.

A simple case — and “case” is itself significant — easily shows why. About seven years ago, one night, fires broke out in two of Montserrat’s court houses, and did considerable damage (including to records).

After they were put out, investigators found signs of accelerants. For cause, they inferred arson. However, they were unable to infer onward to credibly suspected arsonists. Why? Want of a cluster of facts and logic, never mind that popular suspicion did attach to persons believed to benefit from loss of records. As any lawyer can tell, motive, means, opportunity backed up by evidence are the foundation stones on which a court reaches sound judgement. (Kangaroo courts do exist, but leaping to a predetermined conclusion without fair process is not sound process.)

In short, the design inference is much like the progress of investigation of an event: are mechanical necessity and/or chance adequate to explain, or is intentionally, intelligently directed configuration a more credible explanation, given signs s1, s2 . . . sn?

Let’s elaborate, using the per aspect design explanatory filter flowchart:

The per aspect design inference explanatory filter

We see here, that proof — or, warrant — of design as credible causal process is a case of showing warrant beyond reasonable doubt, with TWO defaults that point elsewhere: chance and/or mechanical necessity. That is, some combination of mechanical and/or stochastic laws acting on a plausible initial condition of a relevant substrate. That is, we here first consider the action of a dynamic-stochastic system, driven by forces and factors amenable to analysis on differential and/or difference equations with potential stochastic components. (And no, this is not “reification” of chance, we here appeal to things such as the random behaviour of molecules or the like.)

Illustrating, to refresh our memories:

Yes, it is when an explanatory model like this (up to and including conditions on our planet leading up to Darwin’s pond or the like, or whatever antecedents to the observed cosmos are suggested as leading up to the big bang singularity) FAILS, that design as process is on the table. Where, the ontological distance between design and designer is the same as between arson and credibly convicted arsonists.

Let’s add on the linked needle in haystack, islands of function, hill climbing challenges that are too often overlooked:

But, we are going somewhere with this, a case study on identifying a culprit.

Case in point, consider the text of this post, and by extension, that of the Internet, Libraries etc. We here have functionally specific organisation, manifesting associated information. FSCO/I for short, well beyond the 500 – 1,000 bit threshold that points to overwhelming needle in haystack challenge:

Reppert, has a key point; let’s refresh our memories yet again . . . it needs to sink in:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

Rationality requires this sort of freely arrived at inference, and is a sign in itself. That is, a blindly mechanical, dynamic-stochastic, composite computational substrate based on organised interactions of constituent parts — see the model summary above — cannot adequately explain designs. We are now in logic of being territory (which is a branch of metaphysics, literally beyond [the study of] physics . . nature), and the extended Smith Model is now on the table:

Yes, the prime suspect for designs emanating from certain familiar bio-cybernetic entities is a non-computational, non-algorithmic, supervisory oracle. A mind, in short.

Where, 2360 years ago, Plato pointed to such in his The Laws, Bk X:

Cle. . . . I should like to know how this happens.
Ath. I fear that the argument may seem singular.
Cle. Do not hesitate, Stranger; I see that you are afraid of such a discussion carrying you beyond the limits of legislation. But if there be no other way of showing our agreement in the belief that there are Gods, of whom the law is said now to approve, let us take this way, my good sir.

Ath. Then I suppose that I must repeat the singular argument of those who manufacture the soul according to their own impious notions; they affirm that which is the first cause of the generation and destruction of all things, to be not first, but last, and that which is last to be first, and hence they have fallen into error about the true nature of the Gods.

Cle. Still I do not understand you.

Ath. Nearly all of them, my friends, seem to be ignorant of the nature and power of the soul [[ = psuche], especially in what relates to her origin: they do not know that she is among the first of things, and before all bodies, and is the chief author of their changes and transpositions. And if this is true, and if the soul is older than the body, must not the things which are of the soul’s kindred be of necessity prior to those which appertain to the body?

Cle. Certainly.

Ath. Then thought and attention and mind and art and law will be prior to that which is hard and soft and heavy and light; and the great and primitive works and actions will be works of art; they will be the first, and after them will come nature and works of nature, which however is a wrong term for men to apply to them; these will follow, and will be under the government of art and mind.

Cle. But why is the word “nature” wrong?

Ath. Because those who use the term mean to say that nature is the first creative power; but if the soul turn out to be the primeval element, and not fire or air, then in the truest sense and beyond other things the soul may be said to exist by nature; and this would be true if you proved that the soul is older than the body, but not otherwise.
[[ . . . .]

Ath. . . . when one thing changes another, and that another, of such will there be any primary changing element? How can a thing which is moved by another ever be the beginning of change? Impossible. But when the self-moved changes other, and that again other, and thus thousands upon tens of thousands of bodies are set in motion, must not the beginning of all this motion be the change of the self-moving principle? . . . . self-motion being the origin of all motions, and the first which arises among things at rest as well as among things in motion, is the eldest and mightiest principle of change, and that which is changed by another and yet moves other is second.
[[ . . . .]

Ath. If we were to see this power existing in any earthy, watery, or fiery substance, simple or compound-how should we describe it?

Cle. You mean to ask whether we should call such a self-moving power life?

Ath. I do.

Cle. Certainly we should.

Ath. And when we see soul in anything, must we not do the same-must we not admit that this is life?
[[ . . . . ]

Cle. You mean to say that the essence which is defined as the self-moved is the same with that which has the name soul?

Ath. Yes; and if this is true, do we still maintain that there is anything wanting in the proof that the soul is the first origin and moving power of all that is, or has become, or will be, and their contraries, when she has been clearly shown to be the source of change and motion in all things?

Cle. Certainly not; the soul as being the source of motion, has been most satisfactorily shown to be the oldest of all things.

Ath. And is not that motion which is produced in another, by reason of another, but never has any self-moving power at all, being in truth the change of an inanimate body, to be reckoned second, or by any lower number which you may prefer?

Cle. Exactly.

Ath. Then we are right, and speak the most perfect and absolute truth, when we say that the soul is prior to the body, and that the body is second and comes afterwards, and is born to obey the soul, which is the ruler?
[[ . . . . ]

Ath. If, my friend, we say that the whole path and movement of heaven, and of all that is therein, is by nature akin to the movement and revolution and calculation of mind, and proceeds by kindred laws, then, as is plain, we must say that the best soul takes care of the world and guides it along the good path. [[Plato here explicitly sets up an inference to design (by a good soul) from the intelligible order of the cosmos.]

In short, rationality required for design raises serious ontological issues. Accordingly, inference from design/arson to designer/arsonist is an ontologically laden exercise. We may empirically acknowledge the reality of designers, but once we ponder what enables ability to design, we are in logic of being territory.

Immediately, this shows the fundamental error in the notion that on evidence of signs of design we are only warranted to infer to human or human-like embodied designers. For, the rational roots of design point to our being mind over matter amphibians, bio-cybernetic entities with supervisory oracles that simply don’t work in the way dynamic-stochastic computational substrates do.

Those who imagine that such designs cannot influence a closed mechanistic-stochastic world, are similarly invited to ponder: why, apart from question-begging a priori imposition of evolutionary materialistic scientism or its fellow travellers, do you think this?

Doesn’t the Casimir effect already point to observable quantum field influences that are below the limits of Energy-Time uncertainty relations?

Casimir effect summary {Fair Use}

So, why is it dismissed that we may have quantum-level influences on the brain etc as I/O in-the-loop controller? That’s why Scott Calef argued:

Keith Campbell writes, “The indeterminacy of quantum laws means that any one of a range of outcomes of atomic events in the brain is equally compatible with known physical laws. And differences on the quantum scale can accumulate into very great differences in overall brain condition. So there is some room for spiritual activity even within the limits set by physical law. There could be, without violation of physical law, a general spiritual constraint upon what occurs inside the head.” (p.54). Mind could act upon physical processes by “affecting their course but not breaking in upon them.” (p.54). If this is true, the dualist could maintain the conservation principle but deny a fluctuation in energy because the mind serves to “guide” or control neural events by choosing one set of quantum outcomes rather than another. Further, it should be remembered that the conservation of energy is designed around material interaction; it is mute on how mind might interact with matter. After all, a Cartesian rationalist might insist, if God exists we surely wouldn’t say that He couldn’t do miracles just because that would violate the first law of thermodynamics, would we? [Article, “Dualism and Mind,” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy.]

Similarly, let us ponder Penrose and Hameroff:

It is argued that elementary acts of consciousness are non-algorithmic, i.e., non-computable, and they are neurophysiologically realized as gravitation-induced reductions of coherent superposition states in microtubuli . . . . Penrose’s rationale for invoking state reduction is not that the corresponding randomness offers room for mental causation to become efficacious (although this is not excluded). His conceptual starting point, at length developed in two books (Penrose 1989, 1994), is that elementary conscious acts must be non-algorithmic. Phrased differently, the emergence of a conscious act is a process which cannot be described algorithmically, hence cannot be computed. His background in this respect has a lot to do with the nature of creativity, mathematical insight, Gödel’s incompleteness theorem, and the idea of a Platonic reality beyond mind and matter . . . . With his background as an anaesthesiologist, Hameroff suggested to consider microtubules as an option for where reductions of quantum states can take place in an effective way, see e.g., Hameroff and Penrose (1996). The respective quantum states are assumed to be coherent superpositions of tubulin states, ultimately extending over many neurons. Their simultaneous gravitation-induced collapse is interpreted as an individual elementary act of consciousness. The proposed mechanism by which such superpositions are established includes a number of involved details that remain to be confirmed or disproven.

Maybe, the time has come for some serious re-thinking. For, we have the freedom to think. END

Comments
The anti-ID arguments are never original and they all have been dealt with many times over. It has become beyond pathetic. And dealing with people who would rather erect and fight strawmen as opposed to actually leading by example- show us how you determined blind and mindless processes did it, produce those testable hypotheses and the tests- gets annoying. hazel:
This has substance?
Yes, it does as it is all true. And if Brother Brian wouldn't post such easily refuted nonsense I would post what I do. So it's best to nip the uneducated anti-IDists who can only spew PRATTs and have nothing of substance to say. Both hazel and Ed have come to Brian's aid and neither one of them have a clue, otherwise they would have corrected Brian. You 3 trying to gang up on me proves who the bullies are.ET
June 17, 2019
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ET writes,
The anti-ID arguments are never original and they all have been dealt with many times over. It has become beyond pathetic. And dealing with people who would rather erect and fight strawmen as opposed to actually leading by example- show us how you determined blind and mindless processes did it, produce those testable hypotheses and the tests- gets annoying.
This has substance? I'll point out that ET started the name calling back at 29 and 30, and also look at 44: best to nip that kind of thing in the bud in your future posts, I think: asking ET to "turn down the rhetorical voltage" hasn't proved to be a strong enough corrective. And, FWIW, I (just speaking for myself) have not made any "anti-ID" comments, nor am I an advocate of "Darwinism" (which I gather is a synonym for materialism here.)hazel
June 17, 2019
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ET, notice the difference once I snipped para 1. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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JAD, I came back by and did some snipping. A couple of weeks back, I took stronger measures but it looks like the lesson is fading. That was a warning. Let us proceed on substance I/L/O OP KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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So 85 isn't about "Inferring onward, from design to designer", really? It also addresses those who question such a thing in a belligerent manner.ET
June 17, 2019
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Kf @ 73,
F/N: Should I ignore a distractive side channel? Should I shut down a discussion? Should I snip yet? Should I warn? I think, the last. I have already said enough on bullying, and it seems we need to understand that sociopaths will only heed superior force. That’s been said. KF
You have let this go on far too long Kf. The thread has already been successfully derailed. Please stop enabling and pandering to the trolls. It isn’t fair to us who try to play according to the rules. I haven’t commented much at UD for the past couple months because of this kind of crap. If UD can’t control a few bad actors maybe it’s time to shut down the site for good. PS #82-#85 are all off topic.john_a_designer
June 17, 2019
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[As there is substance, I will not simply snip all. SNIP para 1, distractive. KF] The anti-ID arguments are never original and they all have been dealt with many times over. It has become beyond pathetic. And dealing with people who would rather erect and fight strawmen as opposed to actually leading by example- show us how you determined blind and mindless processes did it, produce those testable hypotheses and the tests- gets annoying. We do NOT have to know the capabilities of any designer before we can determine design exists. We determine the capabilities by the artifacts left behind. We determine whether or not something is an artifact using our knowledge of cause and effect relationships, in accordance with uniformitarianism:
"Thus, Behe concludes on the basis of our knowledge of present cause-and-effect relationships (in accord with the standard uniformitarian method employed in the historical sciences) that the molecular machines and complex systems we observe in cells can be best explained as the result of an intelligent cause. In brief, molecular motors appear designed because they were designed” Pg. 72 of "Darwinism, Design and Public Education"
We basically look for signs of work and/ or counterflow*. For example, Dr. Behe's criteria in "Darwin's Black Box":
“Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.”
* counterflow is defined by Del Ratzsch as something that nature, operating freely, could not or would not produce.ET
June 17, 2019
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SNIPdaveS
June 17, 2019
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SNIPSilver Asiatic
June 17, 2019
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I already snipped above, that should be a warning enough. SNIP== KFdaveS
June 17, 2019
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H, I have spoken of a general situation, as one who has dealt with such. For this thread, there is a little foolishness, and I have given warning. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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I think it's easy to argue that Darwinism is an assault against the human race. It actually destroys the concept of human nature, among many other things. So, it's more than an insult against the human race.Silver Asiatic
June 17, 2019
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SNIPET
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Any statement made by a scientist isn’t necessarily scientific. It’s just a reflection of their personal worldview. Some famous scientists apparently were not materialists, though several individuals seemed agnostics or influenced by eastern philosophical literature like the Vedanta (Upanishad) that is shared -at least partially- by Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism. Some scientists expressed monotheistic beliefs, including Christianity in some cases. Erwin Schrödinger: “I am very astonished that the scientific picture of the real world around me is deficient. It gives a lot of factual information, puts all our experience in a magnificently consistent order, but it is ghastly silent about all and sundry that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It cannot tell us a word about red and blue, bitter and sweet, physical pain and physical delight; it knows nothing of beautiful and ugly, good or bad, God and eternity.” “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.” Niels Bohr: Everything we call real is made of things that cannot be regarded as real. The meaning of life consists in the fact that it makes no sense to say that life has no meaning. Ernest Rutherford: When we have found how the nucleus of atoms is built up we shall have found the greatest secret of all — except life. We shall have found the basis of everything — of the earth we walk on, of the air we breathe, of the sunshine, of our physical body itself, of everything in the world, however great or however small — except life. The only possible conclusion the social sciences can draw is: some do, some don’t. Max Planck: I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness. As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter. Werner Heisenberg: Not only is the Universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think. Where no guiding ideals are left to point the way, the scale of values disappears and with it the meaning of our deeds and sufferings, and at the end can lie only negation and despair. Religion is therefore the foundation of ethics, and ethics the presupposition of life. Albert Einstein: We are slowed down sound and light waves, a walking bundle of frequencies tuned into the cosmos. We are souls dressed up in sacred biochemical garments and our bodies are the instruments through which our souls play their music. Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God’s love present in his heart. It’s like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light. Do you believe in miracles? Well, you should. In fact, life itself is a big miracle. There are so many things that are beyond our understanding. There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle. Nikola Tesla: (not a scientist but an engineer) The gift of mental power comes from God, Divine Being, and if we concentrate our minds on that truth, we become in tune with this great power. My Mother had taught me to seek all truth in the Bible. Michael Faraday: The book of nature which we have to read is written by the finger of God. Since peace is alone the gift of God, and as it is He who gives it, why should we be afraid? His unspeakable gift in His beloved Son is the ground of no doubtful hope. I shall be with Christ, and that is enough. When I consider the multitude of associated forces which are diffused through nature – when I think of that calm balancing of their energies which enables those most powerful in themselves, most destructive to the world’s creatures and economy, to dwell associated together and be made subservient to the wants of creation, I rise from the contemplation more than ever impressed with the wisdom, the beneficence, and grandeur, beyond our language to express, of the Great Disposer of us all. James Clerk Maxwell: I have looked into most philosophical systems and I have seen that none will work without God. I think men of science as well as other men need to learn from Christ, and I think Christians whose minds are scientific are bound to study science that their view of the glory of God may be as extensive as their being is capable. But I think that the results which each man arrives at in his attempts to harmonize his science with his Christianity ought not to be regarded as having any significance except to the man himself, and to him only for a time, and should not receive the stamp of a society. Science is incompetent to reason upon the creation of matter itself out of nothing. We have reached the utmost limit of our thinking faculties when we have admitted that because matter cannot be eternal and self-existent it must have been created. I have the capacity of being more wicked than any example that man could set me. Isaac Newton: What we know is a drop, what we don’t know is an ocean. Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who sets the planets in motion. Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance. I know not how I seem to others, but to myself I am but a small child wandering upon the vast shores of knowledge, every now and then finding a small bright pebble to content myself with while the vast ocean of undiscovered truth lay before me. In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence. A Heavenly Master governs all the world as Sovereign of the universe. We are astonished at Him by reason of His perfection, we honor Him and fall down before Him because of His unlimited power. From blind physical necessity, which is always and everywhere the same, no variety adhering to time and place could evolve, and all variety of created objects which represent order and life in the universe could happen only by the willful reasoning of its original Creator, Whom I call the Lord God. The wonderful arrangement and harmony of the cosmos would only originate in the plan of an almighty omniscient being. This is and remains my greatest comprehension. As a blind man has no idea of colors, so we have no idea of the manner by which the all-wise God perceives and understands all things. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. It is the perfection of God’s works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion. And therefore as they would understand the frame of the world must endeavor to reduce their knowledge to all possible simplicity, so must it be in seeking to understand these visions. There are more sure marks of authenticity in the Bible than in any profane history. I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by those who were inspired. I study the Bible daily. The folly of Interpreters has been, to foretell times and things by this Prophecy, as if God designed to make them Prophets. By this rashness they have not only exposed themselves, but brought the Prophecy also into contempt. The design of God was much otherwise. He gave this and the Prophecies of the Old Testament, not to gratify mens curiosities by enabling them to foreknow things, but that after they were fulfilled they might be interpreted by the event, and his own Providence, not the Interpreters, be then manifested thereby to the world. No being exists or can exist which is not related to space in some way. God is everywhere, created minds are somewhere, and body is in the space that it occupies; and whatever is neither everywhere nor anywhere does not exist. And hence it follows that space is an effect arising from the first existence of being, because when any being is postulated, space is postulated. We account the Scriptures of God to be the most sublime philosophy. The other part of the true religion is our duty to man. We must love our neighbour as our selves, we must be charitable to all men for charity is the greatest of graces, greater then even faith or hope & covers a multitude of sins. We must be righteous & do to all men as we would they should do to us. He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God. Atheism is so senseless and odious to mankind that it never had many professors. Yet one thing secures us what ever betide, the scriptures assures us that the Lord will provide. Trials are medicines which our gracious and wise Physician prescribes because we need them; and he proportions the frequency and weight of them to what the case requires. Let us trust his skill and thank him for his prescription. Johannes Kepler: Science is the process of thinking God’s thoughts after Him. The chief aim of all investigations of the external world should be to discover the rational order and harmony which has been imposed on it by God and which He revealed to us in the language of mathematics. The wisdom of the Lord is infinite as are also His glory and His power. Ye heavens, sing His praises; sun, moon, and planets, glorify Him in your ineffable language! Praise Him, celestial harmonies, and all ye who can comprehend them! And thou, my soul, praise thy Creator! It is by Him and in Him that all exist. I had the intention of becoming a theologian…but now I see how God is, by my endeavors, also glorified in astronomy, for ‘the heavens declare the glory of God.’ Why are things as they are and not otherwise? Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God. My greatest desire is that I may perceive the God whom I find everywhere in the external world, in like manner also within and inside myself. It is a right, yes a duty, to search in cautious manner for the numbers, sizes, and weights, the norms for everything [God] has created. For He himself has let man take part in the knowledge of these things … For these secrets are not of the kind whose research should be forbidden; rather they are set before our eyes like a mirror so that by examining them we observe to some extent the goodness and wisdom of the Creator. The heavenly bodies are nothing but a continuous song for several voices (perceived by the intellect, not by the ear); a music which… sets landmarks in the immeasurable flow of time. It is therefore, no longer surprising that man, in imitation of his creator, has at last discovered the art of figured song, which was unknown to the ancients. Man wanted to reproduce the continuity of cosmic time… to obtain a sample test of the delight of the Divine Creator in His works, and to partake of his joy by making music in the imitation of God. Do we ask what profit the little bird hopes for in singing? Great is God our Lord, great is His power and there is no end to His wisdom. Praise Him you heavens, glorify Him, sun and moon and you planets. For out of Him and through Him, and in Him are all things….. We know, oh, so little. To Him be the praise, the honor and the glory from eternity to eternity. Nicolaus Copernicus: To know that we know what we know, and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge. To know the mighty works of God, to comprehend His wisdom and majesty and power; to appreciate, in degree, the wonderful workings of His laws, surely all this must be a pleasing and acceptable mode of worship to the Most High, to whom ignorance cannot be more grateful than knowledge. The Universe, wrought for us by a supremely good and orderly Creator.PaoloV
June 17, 2019
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OLV, just the evidence of coded, algorithmic language in the cell is utterly decisive. The obvious resort to denial and dismissal then tells us we are not dealing with a reasoned response. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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F/N: Should I ignore a distractive side channel? Should I shut down a discussion? Should I snip yet? Should I warn? I think, the last. I have already said enough on bullying, and it seems we need to understand that sociopaths will only heed superior force. That's been said. KFkairosfocus
June 17, 2019
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KF @63: Yes, agree. BTW, regarding the post @60, the research papers lately seem to keep adding control layers upon control layers. This may continue for quite some time in the future. Actually, the frequency of those additions might increase. Is there a threshold beyond which the objectors might start to see the point? I don’t think so, because the evidence is already overwhelmingly convincing and they don’t seem to see it. As you said, it’s sad.OLV
June 17, 2019
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Oh, I see. Never heard that one.hazel
June 16, 2019
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Point. Refuted. A. Thousand. Times.ET
June 16, 2019
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What is a PRATT?hazel
June 16, 2019
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I expect hazel, ed and brother brian to ignore me. What I post isn't for the willfully ignorant, anyway. :razz:ET
June 16, 2019
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Brother Brian:
Ignore them and you make them look like the pathetic, insecure little people they really are.
Or you show that you don't have anything to respond with so you had better be quiet or suffer more humiliation
If you doubt me, ask yourself why a certain individual feels it necessary to respond to almost every comment I make even though I never respond to him.
LoL! I respond to your asinine posts that you try to pass off as some authoritative facts. If you didn't post so much easily refuted nonsense then I wouldn't have anything to say. Your posts expose you as a joke. That is why I respond. Stop posting nonsense and I wouldn't have anything to say.ET
June 16, 2019
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Brother Brian:
For example, if the moderator of an OP at UD repeatedly allowed one commenter to call another clueless and brainless, that moderator is enabling that bullying behavior.
Allowing your obvious PRATTs to exist can be seen as enabling bullying behavior. Everything you post in your flailing attempt to undermine ID has been dealt with over and over again. You haven't come up with one original argument. You haven't come up with one coherent argument. You just flail away at ID all the while all you have to do is step up and demonstrate the capabilities of your position's posited mechanisms. You have all of the power to refute ID and yet you choose to post PRATTs and refuse to learn when you are easily corrected. So clearly YOU are trying to be the bully and you are just upset because I easily expose you as a poseur. If I was the bully then the best tactic is to step up and refute what I posted. You know, the posts that make you look like a willfully ignorant troll. That is how you do it- humiliate the bully with facts and science (if you can't punch him/her in the nose). That is what I do. :razz:ET
June 16, 2019
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BB suggested ignoring ET, so I assume that prompted your warning him (BB) that in ignoring ET he might be enabling "bullying and linked sociopathic patterns — there are people who lack empathy and conscience to restrain themselves from dangerous and even life-threatening abuse." Is this the corrective you were offering? And is there a possibility that your "corrective" was a little over the top, and vague, and thus not likely to be effective?hazel
June 16, 2019
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KF
H, someone above suggested the very dangerous tactic of trying to ignore bullying — which may actually enable it. I gave a direct corrective because of the importance of dealing with bullying independent of anything else. KF
KF, you completely misinterpreted my comment. I agree that anyone who witnesses bullying and ignores it is enabling it and is entirely unacceptable. For example, if the moderator of an OP at UD repeatedly allowed one commenter to call another clueless and brainless, that moderator is enabling that bullying behavior. What I was referring to was the best way for a person who is being bullied to react to it. And I can speak to this from direct personal experience. As a kid, I was tall, skinny, uncoordinated, wore glasses and was shy. My first reaction to being bullied was to react to it. Which is exactly what the bully wants. In some twisted way, the reaction justifies the bullies behavior. But the quickest way to show a bully for what they truly are (pathetic, insecure little people) is to not let them make you react. Easier said than done, but very effective. It works regardless of whether the bully is pushing you on the school yard or calling you names on an insignificant little blog. Ignore them and you make them look like the pathetic, insecure little people they really are. If you doubt me, ask yourself why a certain individual feels it necessary to respond to almost every comment I make even though I never respond to him.Brother Brian
June 16, 2019
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OLV, the media, education and celebrity voices give a very different message from the direct import of language being in the heart of cell based life. It is amazingly hard for people to see the obvious but politically very incorrect. Thus, the fable about the Emperor's new clothes. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2019
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H, someone above suggested the very dangerous tactic of trying to ignore bullying -- which may actually enable it. I gave a direct corrective because of the importance of dealing with bullying independent of anything else. KFkairosfocus
June 16, 2019
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