Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is Atheism Rationally Justifiable?

Categories
Atheism
Fine tuning
Philosophy
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

First, I’d like to thank Mr. Arrington for granting me posting privileges.  I consider it quite an honor, and I hope this post (and any future posts) warrants this trust.

Second, the following is an argument I think will help us to focus on a fundamental issue that lies behind ever so many of the debates here at Uncommon Descent, and elsewhere.  That is, is the sort of implicit or even explicit atheism that is so often built in on the ground floor of a “scientific” mindset truly rationally justifiable? Such cannot be assumed, it needs to be shown.

I’ll begin by defining some terms for the sake of this argument:

Definition of God (for the purpose of this thread): First cause, prime mover, root of being, objective source of human purpose (final cause) and resulting morality, source of free will, mind, consciousness; omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent inasmuch as principles of logic allow; an interventionist as necessary to facilitate movement towards final cause and also inasmuch as logical principles are not violated; source of logic — “reason itself.” (I am not talking in particular about any specifically defined religious interpretation of god, such as the Chrstian or Islamic God.)

Definition: Weak, or negative atheism is the lack of any belief that a god exists, and the position that a god probably doesn’t exist, and is not the positive belief that gods do not exist (strong atheism), and is not agnosticism (the lack of belief that god either does or does not exist and the further view that there is a lack of sufficient probability either way).  Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.

Definition: A worldview or mindset is rationally justified when it answers adequately to the facts of the real world as we experience or observe it, makes good sense and fits together logically, is simple but not simplistic, and honestly faces the issues and difficulties that all worldviews face.

Definition: Intellectual dishonesty occurs when (1) one deliberately mischaracterizes their position or view in order to avoid having to logically defend their actual views; and/or (2) when someone is arguing, or making statements against a position while remaining willfully ignorant about that position, and/or (3) when someone categorically and/or pejoratively dismisses all existent and/or potential evidence in favor of a conclusion they claim to be neutral about, whether they are familiar with that evidence or not.

These will be important as we consider:

Evidence in favor of God:  The following is a brief summary of the evidence that typically leads many people to make a general finding that a god (as described above) exists, even if variantly interpreted or culturally contextualized:

(1)
Anecdotal evidence for the apparently intelligently ordered anomalous, miraculous (defying expected natural processes and probabilities) events attributed to god, such as signs, supernatural events (e.g. Fatima, Guadeloupe, Paul’s Damascus Road Experience), or answers to prayers to god;

(2)
Testimonial evidence (first-hand accounts) of experience of such phenomena, including interactions with a god-like being or accounts of god-like interventions;  Also, the testimony of religious adherents of various specific gods can be counted as evidence of the god premised in this argument in the manner that various cultures can vary widely in their description of certain phenomena or experiences, and come up with widely variant “explanations”; what is interesting as evidence here, though, is the widespread crediting of similar kinds of phenomena and experience to a “god” of some sort (which might be the case of blind or ignorant people touching different parts of an elephant and thus describing “what the elephant is” in various ways). Such testimonial evidence can be counted in favor of the premise here, but cannot be held against it where it varies, because it is not testimony that such a god doesn’t exist.

(3)
The various Cosmological and Ontological Arguments for the existence of god;

(4)  The Strong Anthropic (or Fine Tuning) argument and other evidences for design of our world and of life in it;

(5) The empirical, scientific evidence assembled in support of the design arguments in #4 (such as recently persuaded Antony Flew — formerly the world’s leading philosophical atheist — that there is a god);

(6) The Moral arguments for the existence of god.

(7) Empirical and testimonial evidence of phenomena closely correlated to the existence of a god as described above, such as the survival of consciousness after death, and the existence of an afterlife realm; the evidence for interactions with correlated entities such as angels and demons (which seem to act to influence our free will towards or away from our human purpose), etc., gathered by various serious and scientific investigations into what is often referred to as the “paranormal”, including mediumship studies dating back to William Crooke and ongoing through the work at Pear Labs and the Scole Experiment, including consciousness-survival research published in the Lancet. While indirect, this evidence tends to support the proposition that god exists.

While the various arguments listed above have been subjected to counter-arguments and rebuttals of varying strengths and weaknesses across the ages, one must not lose sight that while there is much evidence of all sorts (as listed above) in favor of the existence of god; there is zero empirical evidence (to my knowledge) or and little in the way of rational argument that no such god exists.  In other words, decreasing the value of the arguments and evidence for god does not increase the value of the position that there is no god; it can only increase the reasonableness of the “weak atheist” (there isn’t enough evidence) or an agnostic position.

The commonly seen rebuttals to these argument are simply attempting to show weaknesses in or alternatives to the arguments themselves so that such arguments cannot be taken as demonstratively convincing (that god exists); such counter-arguments as a rule do not actually make the case that god (as described above) in fact does not exist.

The argument against weak atheism:

The above shows us that, ironically, strong atheism is a weak position. That is probably why atheism advocates seldom defend it in informed company. So, we must first focus on the “stronger” atheist position, the one they defend in public: “weak atheism,” generally described as absence of belief in god or gods. I will argue that it too is far weaker than is commonly recognized.

I know of no positive arguments for the strong “there is no god” position, other than the argument from evil which has been addressed by Boethius, Adams  and Platinga. Aside from that, there are only rebuttals/reactions to various “there is a god” arguments. This exemplifies how rebutting an argument does not eliminate it as evidence, it only offers an alternative perspective that one  can evaluate along with the original argument.   Depending on the strength of the rebuttal or alternative explanation, that particular positive evidence for god may be decreased in value, but there is no concurrent increase in the value of an argument against the existence of god (as described above).

If a “weak atheist” claims to “lack belief” because there is “no evidence for god,” he or she is necessarily being intellectually dishonest, because we certainly aren’t privy to all potential or available evidence. Are such atheists claiming to be omniscient? If not, then, a more modest and reasonable point would be that they are not aware of evidence for god. However, given what we have already seen, such “weak atheists” cannot genuinely claim to not know of “any” evidence for god after having perused any of the above evidence.  That is to say, there is evidence for god, just, they don’t accept it. But incredulity or hyper-skepticism on your part does not equate to “no evidence” on my part. Testimony from otherwise credible sources is not made “less credible” simply because the testimony is about something the listener personally finds to be in-credible; it is not intellectually honest to discredit the credibility of testimony only on the basis of the subject matter being debated.

Also, strong atheists often only refer to themselves as weak atheists because they have realized that the strong atheist position is an assertion they cannot support in informed company.  They do this to provide cover for their real view, which is an obvious form of intellectual dishonesty.  One can often discern when this is going on when the person ridicules belief in god or makes categorical dismissals about evidence they have never even seen; they believe there is no god, and so assume there can be no valid evidence for god, and advocate for that position rhetorically via ridicule.

Even if the “weak atheist” is not aware of any compelling evidence for god, he or she must know that we humans are quite limited in what we know, and may often be unaware of mistakes in what we think we know. That means that any categorical claim a “weak” atheist makes about the available evidence he or she is not privy to — that it is not credible or convincing — is again intellectually dishonest because you cannot justifiably make a categorical claim about something you have no knowledge of.

So, if we have a weak atheist who is aware of the existence of the above evidence and agrees that there might be more evidence they are not privy to; and who does not categorically assert problems with the evidence they have not yet seen; and who does not categorically dismiss the available evidence as “non-evidence” due to hyper-skeptical bias but rather states that the available evidence they have seen is not compelling towards a conclusion that god exists; then one must ask the following:

In the face of such overwhelming amounts of evidence — thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories; many serious arguments based on credible empirical evidence and apparently necessary logical premises and inferences; and, the complete lack of any generally successful attempt to make a sound argument that god in fact does not exist — one must ask: how can any intellectually honest person come to any conclusion other than that on the balance of the evidence, god probably existseven if god is poorly and diversely defined, and even if the experience of god is open to various interpretations and even to misunderstanding?

As an analogy: even if one has never personally experienced “love”; in the face of thousands of years of testimony and anecdotal stories that love exists, and empirical evidence supporting that certain physical states correspond to assertions of experiences of love, would it be intellectually honest to “lack belief” that love exists, or would it be intellectually honest to hold the view that even though one doesn’t experience love (or using the same argument, color, joy, dreams, etc.), that love probably exists – even if people are widely disparate in their explanation, description, or presentation of what love is?

Another analogy: because witnesses disagree in their description of a criminal suspect in a crime, or disagree about the particulars of the crime they witnessed, this doesn’t mean there is no criminal at all.  Depending on the testimony and evidence, one may hold that it is likely that a crime occurred, and so it is likely that a criminal exists, but that the arguments, testimony and evidence are  not enough reach a finding of “guilty” for any particular suspect.

As far as I am aware of there is no anecdotal or testimonial evidence that god does not exist (because lack of experience of a thing isn’t evidence the thing doesn’t exist), very little in the way of logical argument towards that conclusion, and there is a vast array of logical, anecdotal, testimonial and empirical evidence that god (at least as generally described above) does exist. Because a billion people did not witness a crime, and only a handful did, doesn’t tilt the scales in favor of no crime having been committed at all; imagine now a billion people that report witnessing a crime, and handful that did not, and you have something more comparable to the state of evidence concerning the existence of god.

Even if one doesn’t find that evidence compelling for for a final conclusion that god exists,  when one weighs the balance of the evidence for and against god, one should be willing to at least consider whether it is more probable that god (as described above) exists than that god does not exist.  Problematically (for the atheist), the view that it is more likely that god exists than not is not any sort of an atheistic position.

The argument against strong atheism:

Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.

First, it is obvious that strong atheism cannot be logically supported, simply because it is impossible to prove (not in the absolute sense, but in the “sufficient evidence” sense). There may be evidence and good argument that certain gods, or kinds of gods, do not exist; but there is certainly no generally accepted evidence or successful argument that no significant, meaningful god or gods whatsoever exist, including the one as defined for this thread.

Instead of trying to actually support their own claim, strong atheists usually attempt to shift the burden of proof onto theists by essentially asking the theists to prove the atheist position wrong, implying or asserting that atheism must be held true by default.  That is, such try to argue that they have nothing to argue and can sit comfortably on their view as a default. However, that is not so; every worldview of consequence has a duty to show that it is factually adequate, coherent and explains reality powerfully and simply.  Strong atheism is not a default position; it is a positive assertion that no god or gods exist.  The default position is always “I don’t know” or true agnosticism.

Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist. As such, It has the job of proving a universal negative.  Perhaps this could be accomplished by showing the converse positive claim to be self-contradictory, and readers advocating strong atheism are invited to make their case based upon the definition of God at the top of this post.

Also, however unlikely it may seem to an atheist, it might be true that a god of some sort exists outside of the circle of what she or he knows or what the collective of atheists actually know. After all, we all know full well that “to err is human.” So, since the atheist could be mistaken or ignorant of the key fact or argument that would be decisive,  the strong atheist position unjustifiably excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration.  What is the rationally useful point of a metaphysical position that excludes a potentially true explanation from consideration?  Especially when it requires asserting an unsupportable universal negative? What, then, does strong atheism bring to the table of debate other than the potential for intractable error and denial of potential truth for the sake of a sweeping, unsupportable, universally negative assertion?

Conclusion: atheism is an untenable position for any intellectually honest, rational, and informed person. The belief that god (as described above, which is supported by the listed evidence) does not exist, or that it isn’t more likely that god exists than not, can only be a position based on ignorance of the available evidence and argument for god, or a hyper-skeptical, intellectually dishonest, ideologically biased, a priori dismissal of all of the evidence for the existence of god.

Comments
Mung 164: You are way too smart to not just be playing with this unless I've been unclear. The OT prophecies concerning His incarnation and all He would do and why and when are sufficient to indicate "infinite mathematical proof" thus a rational basis for not just Christ, but as a rational foundation for theism generally. I know you like to stretch ideas, but here its not worth your time so to speak when a much bigger picture is being presented. and..."the twain shall never meet" ? Do chapters of books never "meet" - 33 or even 70 AD are not the end of the story of this world...alan
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:42 PM
3
03
42
PM
PDT
To Mung @ 165: I am too busy for much more of this, but you sucked me in. one table of the elements sounds like a statement of faith No, no, no. You dont get it at all. The table is exactly NOT a matter of faith. Thats EXACTLY what it is NOT. Its the result of years of observation, trial+error. Its the best fit on what we see in the real world. Yes, there may be other tables. Yes, carbon may spntaneously change to something else on Thursday, but we havent observed it, so we dont record it. The periodic table (Im using it as a metaphor for Science) is our best guess. In fact, we know its not complete. The bottom edge is ragged because the very heavy elements are so short lived, its as far as we have got. Presumably it extends further down. The point is, it matches reality, so we use it. If someone can provide a better table, one that is a better match on reality, it will be eagerly adopted, but so far the table we have is our best bet.Graham2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:42 PM
3
03
42
PM
PDT
Timaeus @ 160: Whether Science would have arisen in a non-christian culture is an interesting question, but not greatly relevant. Perhaps it wouldnt, perhaps it would but later, or even earlier. I dont really care. Its interesting, but the fact is that we are now off and running. The truth of (say) the periodic table is unaffected. Its been tested and its the right one. If it would not have happened for another 100 years, save for our Christian heritage, then hooray, but its here now. You seem to be obsessed with the history of the subject, like others here who nit pick over whether Darwin beat his wife. Its not important (to the Science). get over it. That Science challenges religion is amply demonstrated by the very conversation we are having now, in this very blog. UncommonDescent is devoted to discrediting Evolution because it challenges their world view. Evolution is one story, genesis is a totally different one. They conflict. They both cant be right. Its not just Evolution of course, but that is the hot issue here.Graham2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
KN:
Now, it bears emphasis that naturalism and nominalism are quite different views — one can be a nominalist without being a naturalist, but also one can be a naturalist without being a nominalist. I have a moderate commitment to naturalism and a weak commitment to nominalism.
How so!? How one could study nature and be a nominalist is beyond me, hehe. Forgive my equivocating over the word naturalist. :) Can one be a nominalist coherently?Mung
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
Kairofocus - I quite agree with #156. Early in my academic study and especially during graduate school I worked from a subconscious assumption that only provable conclusions were valid. However, I realized I was living a half-life by choice. Even as a PhD scientist, I realized that while empirical or scientific evidence are essential to the scientific process, that does not discount experiential intuition as a human being. A book I read early in the period where I was seriously seeking was "The Intellectuals Speak Out on God". I was surprised by how many eminent scientists were religious and further cited science as a supporting element of their faith. Science is not in conflict with religion. Some scientists may be, but science itself is not.ecs2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:14 PM
3
03
14
PM
PDT
Graham2 probably doesn't think mathematics is a science. Or that some sciences are mathematical and others are not. That there is only one table of the elements sounds like a statement of faith. Graham2 has no reason for the periodic table, much less that there is only one periodic table, or that it was even discoverable by human reasoning. It just happened, that's all, hardly qualifies as scientific, does it?Mung
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:14 PM
3
03
14
PM
PDT
alan:
no, no, no – Old Testament to Christ, with no need to figure in post 33 AD – last days which have their own if known.
So there is the "last days" of the old testament and the "last days" of the new testament and never the twain shall meet?Mung
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:10 PM
3
03
10
PM
PDT
There have been several quite interesting responses to my initial foray into this question; I shall attempt to deal with all in turn. In re: JDH at 131,
It is easy to come up with a natural model for simple stimulus and response. I believe this is part of the natural world. But God said, “Let us make man in our image.” Man has a mind capable of going beyond stimulus and response. Man is able to make arbitrary decisions not based stimulus and response, but by weighing two abstract ideas. This type of decisions by its very nature can not be an extension of stimulus, response.
I certainly agree with Plato that we do need a theory of what concepts are, and that adequately distinguishes concepts from objects. But I don't think that we need endorse Plato's own theory of concepts to do so. Now, it bears emphasis that naturalism and nominalism are quite different views -- one can be a nominalist without being a naturalist, but also one can be a naturalist without being a nominalist. I have a moderate commitment to naturalism and a weak commitment to nominalism. On my view, what it is to grasp a concept is pretty much just to have mastered a word, and to invent a new concept is to use an old word in a new way, and occasionally, to introduce a new word, along with guidelines for its use. Socrates and Euthyphro are arguing about the nature of piety, but the background of that discussion is that ancient Greek had different contexts for specifying the use of "piety" (eusebia). Euthyphro believes that he is in possession of the correct knowledge of piety -- he believes that he can correctly prioritize between the different uses. Most of the time, we don't notice the divergences between our uses; they are few and far between. Having learned the same language, we follow the same rules for using words. And I think that the concept pretty much just is the rules for using a word. (Note: I don't identify the concept with the word itself, but with the rules for using it.) In re: vjtorley @ 135:
Your account explains why the brain is likely to be good at pattern matching, especially in cases where this is conducive to survival. However, much of our reasoning is carried out at a higher level: that of critical evaluation – your own post being a perfect example. When we critically evaluate a hypothesis, or discuss the theoretical merits of one hypothesis as opposed to another, what is at issue is mot the pattern in Nature that needs to be explained, but the nature of a good explanation. (Consider the dispute as to whether the multiverse is a good hypothesis.)
Actually, I mostly agree with this, but with my own distinctive caveats. What animals do in representing their environments is different in kind from what we do. (At one level of analysis, anyway -- though differences of kind at one level of description can be differences in degree at another level.) That difference in kind is captured in the idea of normativity: that we not only have actions and beliefs but can evaluate our actions and beliefs. So the question is, is the fact of normativity consistent with naturalism? I believe it is, because I think that normativity pretty much just is language, culture, institutions -- in a word, sociality, or what Hegel called Spirit or Geist. There are enough manifestations of "proto-normativity" in the behavior of large-brained social animals (primates, elephants, cetaceans) that I don't see the emergence of normativity as a deal-breaker for naturalism, though I quite agree that normativity is the problem for naturalism -- even more so than consciousness. (If consciousness is "the hard problem," then normativity is "the really hard problem".) The reason I'm confident it can be solved is because of the ground-breaking work already done by John Dewey, Wilfrid Sellars and (esp.) Robert Brandom. In re: bornagain @ 139:
Well that puts you in quite the evidential dilemma doesn’t it KN?, you deny the reality of mind, and now, apparently in your denial of ‘humans as Turing machines’, you deny any basis in reality altogether as to where thoughts can possibly proceed from. Pray tell, just what is generating your thoughts if it is not your brain, which has more switches than all the computers on earth, or your mind which originated from the breath of God?
I think it's a mistake -- what Ryle called a "category mistake" -- to say that "the brain thinks". The brain does not think any more than the eye sees. It is I, the rational animal or embodied human person that I am, that thinks, and my brain plays a crucial role in how thinking happens -- just it is not the eyes that see, but that I see with my eyes (and contact lenses). I do not think that a disembodied brain in a vat would do much, if any, thinking at all -- certainly nothing that we would ordinarily call thinking. In re: StephenB @ 142: I agree with everything you say there. Not that I'm surprised at that; I actually think that Scholastic realism and pragmatism are closely aligned. The important thing is to reject the solipsistic starting-point for epistemology; the ego-centric predicament is a trap. I suspect that the main thing we really disagree about, philosophically, is whether the intellect is natural.Kantian Naturalist
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:07 PM
3
03
07
PM
PDT
Your references to 1 science are fascinating. I haven't heard that particular argument before. I'm also not sure I entirely understand what you mean. When I read scientific journals, I often find conflicting view points there. A point, counter-point is a common feature within academic journals, comparing and contrasting viewpoints on a given topic. So disagreement within the scientific community with at least two predominant opinions is very common. However, if I canvassed scientific literature across all disciplines, counting each variant, however minor, of scientific theory as a separate competing version of science, than in the end I would have many, many more than 3000 views on science. When you say there is 1 science, you are saying 1 is true (the real story) and the remainder stem from the error or bias in measuring, evaluating, and defining the world around us. If one of these religions is true, and thus all 3000 (or however many) variants of that are some derivative (be they partially true or completely untrue) stemming from human perceptions, biases, or errors, is that not similar to the 1 science. What distinction are you drawing between these?ecs2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
Mung re. preterism; no, no, no - Old Testament to Christ, with no need to figure in post 33 AD - last days which have their own if known. STILL - OT to Christ - if known - the vehicle to the most rational basis for Theism, not just Jesus. Still the most Functional, Specified, Complex Information in the universe we are aware of and having no need for a search extending to multiverses.alan
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
03:03 PM
3
03
03
PM
PDT
Graham2 @ 150: "we would have ended up with the periodic table, regardless of our background, because there is only 1 such table" Yes, *if* we ended up with the periodic table, it would have been the same as the one we have now, *BUT* you overlook the point that Steve Gann and I are making, which is that if it weren't for Christianity, the human race might never have discovered the periodic table at all. The modern scientific enterprise which discovered it arose in a Christian culture, not a Hindu or Chinese or Mayan or even Islamic one. And that Christian culture believed in a "disembodied intelligence" called God. The question that you don't want to ask -- because it upsets your comfortable secularist world view -- is whether belief in a "disembodied intelligence" who creates the laws of nature was necessary in order for modern science to come into being at all. Serious historians of science wrestle with this question. It appears you haven't read any of them. You also wrote, in 154: "That Science challenges religion is obvious, I would have thought. See Evolution." No, it's not obvious. It was "obvious" to the vulgar middle-class daily newspaper readers in the Anglo-Saxon world from maybe about 1850 to about 1950, since they were fed an ignorant version of the history of science based on misinformation about Darwin, Galileo, etc. But since the 1930s at least science historiography is greatly improved, and very few historians of science hold seriously to the "warfare" thesis any longer. Of course, in many Anglo-Saxon philosophy departments, you still have a predominance of Brit-spawned analytic philosophy, and a programmatic hatred of religion and worship of science that dates back to Ayer's *Language, Truth, and Logic*. But the historians understand the real score far better than the philosophers, because the historians have actually read the relevant historical texts. The analytic philosophers are too busy bowing and scraping and bestowing osculatory gestures upon the posteriors of scientists to take the time to read any of those texts. "Evolution" per se does not challenge religion; many of Darwin's early supporters were Anglican clerics, for example. And Michael Behe is an evolutionist and devout Roman Catholic, to name just one of millions of people like that. Certain *interpretations* of evolution challenge certain *versions* of religion, but that is not "Science" (with a capital S) versus "Religion" (with a capital R). The "warfare thesis" you are endorsing is simply untenable in modern discussions. No serious thinker holds to it any more. Your thought is decades out of date.Timaeus
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
02:56 PM
2
02
56
PM
PDT
ecs2: I believe there are a number of religious denominations... Thats what I mean by 3000 gods. Is Genesis literal or not ? Pretty basic stuff, but the religious just dont seem to be able to make up their minds. I presume that the denizens of this blog believe in creation, no, thats what this site is devoted to, ridding the world of Evolution.Graham2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
02:52 PM
2
02
52
PM
PDT
G2 - Can we pull that string a little further? What about evolution challenges religion? I know several proponents of theistic evolution and I believe there are a number of religious denominations, including Catholicism, which have expressed they do not see conflict between evolution and religion. What is the specific conflict between religion and evolution?ecs2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
02:43 PM
2
02
43
PM
PDT
SH: Belief in atheistical, scientism-based evolutionary materialist views as strong as we are talking of is closely tied to confident assertions, which are often expressed -- whether adequately warranted is another issue -- as knowledge claims. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
02:13 PM
2
02
13
PM
PDT
EC: Not if your start-point is living encounter with God, individually or as community. Through such living encounters I have no doubt that my mom is no zombie automaton for instance. Part of the rise of widespread skepticism, is that it tends to suppress the most direct reason to believe in God of all, encounter -- even in cases where such leads to life transforming experiences, which has been so for millions. Quite literally. For instance, apart from such encounter for my mom and myself some 40 years ago, I would simply not be alive. And such encounter, in the end is at least as convincing as any experience of the world based knowledge claim can be. This, BTW, is one reason why there are a lot of people who look at the sort of debates that go on on the Internet and shake their heads. To such, the problem is not intellectual difficulties but willful shutting the eye and ear to an overwhelming cataract of evidence all around us. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
02:09 PM
2
02
09
PM
PDT
Your definition:
Strong atheism is the belief that no god or gods exist at all.
(my emphasis) Followed by:
Strong atheism is defined as the assertion that no god or gods exist whatsoever.
and:
Strong atheism is a sweeping, categorical assertion that something does not exist.
Such assertions are tantamount to a claim that (s)he knows that there are no gods. However, "I know there are no gods" is not the same as "I believe there are no gods". You seem to have accidentally dropped the original definition in favor of statements which are far more difficult to support and easily refuted. There should be a name for such accidents. Fortunately, you managed to revert to the original definition when you concluded that you had defeated strong atheism rather than one particularly arrogant version of it. (cue obvious jokes) Also I think you may have accidentally erred on the weak atheist's view. It's not that (s)he knows there is no evidence for gods, merely that no evidence has been presented to him/her which (s)he finds sufficiently convincing. Most of the evidences in your list strike me as evidence that people believe in gods and are prepared to jump through hoops to justify that - not that the gods themselves are real.steveh
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
02:08 PM
2
02
08
PM
PDT
ecs2: 3000 gods (or whatever). Why so many ? If the validity of 1 was obvious, why a 2nd, 3rd etc ? The point of only 1 Science is that any attempt to establish a 2nd Science is immediately weeded out by testing/evidence. Eg: cold fusion died because it didnt stand up to scrutiny, so we are back to 1 Science. But its not possible to test the validity of gods. If you believe the Polynesian Octopus god created all life on earth, how is this any different to believing any other god did it ? There is no evidence available to distinguish them. That Science challenges religion is obvious, I would have thought. See Evolution. Regarding the majesty of the cosmos. Yes, I feel it too, but why is it necessary to attribute it to god ? Maybe its something we generate internally ?Graham2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
02:08 PM
2
02
08
PM
PDT
G2 - the point about 3000 Gods seems significant to you. I'm not at all sure I follow. Are you implying that none could be true because there are multiple? How does that follow logically? I also don't really understand your point about science drawing religion into question? What are you attempting to establish there? Science is the systematic approaching to establishing knowledge about the world around us. True, science has made progress in understanding the world around us. [I'm not sure how 'success' can be gauged in this context. In 1900 science was succesful because they knew more than 1800, same in 1900, same in 2000 vs 1900, and will be true in 2100 vs 2000. How is success defined in that context? Gaining knowledge over the passage of time, explaining some benchmark percentage of the world around us (how would we measure that), other?] Are you implying scientific principles somehow contradict or draw the existence of God into question? You'll have to back that up, because I have quite the opposite view. From the majesty of the cosmos to the complexity of the tiniest cell to the order of nature, in my view science is a testament to God. Do you disagree? Finally, I believe agnosticism is the default starting point for any inquiry - I'm not sure whether there is a God or not so therefore I will considering any evidence objectively. Neither theism or atheism are default positions of not believing anything - both have associated presuppositions and assumptions.ecs2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
01:55 PM
1
01
55
PM
PDT
Therefore we regard the message of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp that is shining in a gloomy place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.
Sounds too much like preterism for my tastes.Mung
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
01:39 PM
1
01
39
PM
PDT
@Kairosfocus
Reppert: “ . . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.”
This analysis is completely crushing for the idea that a brain can think. I do not see that this is anything other than totally convincing. Physicalism, materialism, naturalism, emergentism or whatever you want to call it, is now dead. Good riddance! Matter cannot think. Period. If there is still any doubt left I would like to hear about it. Thank you very much Kairofocus!Box
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
01:33 PM
1
01
33
PM
PDT
Steve: The history of Science is interesting, but not greatly relevant to its current status. Eg: we would have ended up with the periodic table, regardless of our background, because there is only 1 such table. How could we end up with anything else ? Martians (if they exist) also have the identical table. It cant be any other way. If all humanity were erased, and we started evolving again (or were created again, I dont care), we would end up with the same periodic table. It may be printed differently, but it would be identical because it cannot be any other way. If our cultural history is pagan, devout or whatever, we would still end up with the identical periodic table. Ditto for all the rest of Science (QM included). However, there are about 3000 gods. If we all started again, we would end up with a (different) 3000 gods. Thats the point. Why only 1 Science, and 3000 gods ? This is the question you (and your ilk) should be asking yourselves. Lastly, you use the phrase 'atheism is true'. Thats not accurate, its like the old saw about not stamp collecting. Atheism is the starting (default) position of not believing anything. From there I will aquire beliefs if justified by the evidence. (Of course Im as capable as anyone else to hold simultaneous crazy ideas). Now, to violate 400 years of spectacularly succesful Science, the evidence has to be equally spectacular. Eg: NDE's dont cut it, relying on the testimony of someone whose brain is near death would be laughed out of court. Its like relying on the testimony of a drunkard. Similarly 'miracles'. Thats about as clear as I can be. Whether its mataphysical or epistimological, you tell me.Graham2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
01:18 PM
1
01
18
PM
PDT
BIG QUESTION: Is this: "Therefore we regard the message of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp that is shining in a gloomy place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." - NOT the MOST rational basis for 1. theism in general, 2. Christianity in specific and 3. the actual directed by the Creator METHOD to know their is a God including what God tells us are the reasons (Why, What, Who, and the When) of what is? I say the MOST RATIONAL due to being far far less open to opinion as those evidences offered here are as indicated in the exchanges here. Precise and extensive fulfillment of prophecy can be determined rationally and is even said to be "Infallible Proof" due its shear power to provided to us effective cognitive surety. Exact fulfilled prophecy strongly proves (not just indicates) a Mind "beyond" space and time and one of infinite scope. Here at UD we talk about Functional Specified Complex Directed Information found here in the material world providing "evidence" of Intelligence - Mind - Design: SO - DOES the vast and exact extent of the prophetic execution provides, mathematically speaking, an even greater indication - even PROOF - i.e. NOT debatable? Can anyone do the math and provide a number indicating the amount of Functional Specified Complex Directed Information found in fulfilled prophecy? SO the ELEPHANT in this room is: New International Version (©1984) And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. New Living Translation (©2007) Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place--until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. English Standard Version (©2001) And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, New American Standard Bible (©1995) So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) So we have the prophetic word strongly confirmed. You will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dismal place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. International Standard Version (©2012) Therefore we regard the message of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp that is shining in a gloomy place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Paraphrasing: "I tell you things that will come to pass SO THAT you will KNOW" -alan
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
01:12 PM
1
01
12
PM
PDT
Graham2 is not interested in reasoning. re-read the op. :)Mung
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
01:10 PM
1
01
10
PM
PDT
Except ID: that's Science. Since there is only one science, that surely follows.Mung
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
01:09 PM
1
01
09
PM
PDT
Graham2: I have not been able to respond to you because of work, but I hope you see this. My point about the history of science was to get you to think about your claims concerning the history of science. Christian people were scientists. It was largely their work that created this methodology we call Modern science". Could other cultures have done so? Yes. But medieval and Renaissance Christianity actually did so. To understand science is, in part, to understand the theology that went into its development. But, you have still not done what has been asked of you (that I have seen, even though I did not read the last 40 posts). That is offer a positive case for your position. You cannot just say I am an atheist by default and its the theists job to prove everything. I think that is what you have done though. You cannot be an atheist in a vacuum of other ideas. If atheism is true THEN then you have to have and defend a metaphysical position (such as materialism) that results from the atheism. You have not done that. You also have to hold and defend an epistemological position which I have not seen you do. So I will get you started...."Hi my name is Graham2 and I am an atheist. Because of my atheism my metaphysical and epistemological positions are ____________, _________, ___________. And I think this way for these positive reasons __________, ___________, __________, _________." Now fill in the blanks please.Steve_Gann
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
12:11 PM
12
12
11
PM
PDT
I assume from the above that most of you agree that Quantum Mechanics is a display of the hand of god. So now its meaning of words: god, mathematical equations: god, QM: god. Your world is saturated with god. Except ID: thats Science.Graham2
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
11:58 AM
11
11
58
AM
PDT
LarTanner said: "... a book I personally consider among the most wicked ever devised and interpreted." Please enlighten me. What does "wicked" mean in the above statement?William J Murray
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
11:55 AM
11
11
55
AM
PDT
Folks: I take a different view on all of this, I suppose, because I grew up in the era in which Freudianism and Marxism were in their hey-day, though about to wante dramatically. Freudians routinely dismissed critics because of their strict potty training or the like, all with suitably fancy terminology about Oedipus complexes, if-ego-superego and whatnot. Oh yes, God was the blown up image of the father figure projected unto the sky. Sounded very impressive, especially when spoken with true believer fervour. Marxists were much into Bourgeois false consciousness driving reactionary forces, superstructures built on the underlying economic and dialectical materialist realities, and so they discounted the views of critics. What was never so clearly answered was, what happens wen one raises the issue of self-referentiality. Each of these evolutionary materialist systems has that same problem, and ends up in undermining the views of their own systems. of course, the in effect solution was to make a quiet exception for their views and those trhey agreed with. Hence the issue of selective hyperskepticism. So far as I can see there is not a dime's worth of difference with today's confident scientistim-laced evolutionary materialist positions. Here on is why, in a nutshell:
a: Evolutionary materialism argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature; from hydrogen to humans by undirected chance and necessity. b: Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws of chance and/or mechanical necessity acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of happenstance initial circumstances. (This is physicalism. This view covers both the forms where (a) the mind and the brain are seen as one and the same thing, and those where (b) somehow mind emerges from and/or "supervenes" on brain, perhaps as a result of sophisticated and complex software looping. The key point, though is as already noted: physical causal closure -- the phenomena that play out across time, without residue, are in principle deducible or at least explainable up to various random statistical distributions and/or mechanical laws, from prior physical states. Such physical causal closure, clearly, implicitly discounts or even dismisses the causal effect of concept formation and reasoning then responsibly deciding, in favour of specifically physical interactions in the brain-body control loop; indeed, some mock the idea of -- in their view -- an "obviously" imaginary "ghost" in the meat-machine. [[There is also some evidence from simulation exercises, that accuracy of even sensory perceptions may lose out to utilitarian but inaccurate ones in an evolutionary competition. "It works" does not warrant the inference to "it is true."] ) c: But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this meat-machine picture. So, we rapidly arrive at Crick's claim in his The Astonishing Hypothesis (1994): what we subjectively experience as "thoughts," "reasoning" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as the unintended by-products of the blind natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains that (as the Smith Model illustrates) serve as cybernetic controllers for our bodies. d: These underlying driving forces are viewed as being ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance shaped by forces of selection [["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning [["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [[i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism]. And, remember, the focal issue to such minds -- notice, this is a conceptual analysis made and believed by the materialists! -- is the physical causal chains in a control loop, not the internalised "mouth-noises" that may somehow sit on them and come along for the ride. (Save, insofar as such "mouth noises" somehow associate with or become embedded as physically instantiated signals or maybe codes in such a loop. [[How signals, languages and codes originate and function in systems in our observation of such origin -- i.e by design -- tends to be pushed to the back-burner and conveniently forgotten. So does the point that a signal or code takes its significance precisely from being an intelligently focused on, observed or chosen and significant alternative from a range of possibilities that then can guide decisive action.]) . . . . f: For further instance, we may take the favourite whipping-boy of materialists: religion. Notoriously, they often hold that belief in God is not merely cognitive, conceptual error, but delusion. Borderline lunacy, in short. But, if such a patent "delusion" is so utterly widespread, even among the highly educated, then it "must" -- by the principles of evolution -- somehow be adaptive to survival, whether in nature or in society. And so, this would be a major illustration of the unreliability of our conceptual reasoning ability, on the assumption of evolutionary materialism. g: Turning the materialist dismissal of theism around, evolutionary materialism itself would be in the same leaky boat. For, the sauce for the goose is notoriously just as good a sauce for the gander, too. h: That is, on its own premises [[and following Dawkins in A Devil's Chaplain, 2004, p. 46], the cause of the belief system of evolutionary materialism, "must" also be reducible to forces of blind chance and mechanical necessity that are sufficiently adaptive to spread this "meme" in populations of jumped- up apes from the savannahs of East Africa scrambling for survival in a Malthusian world of struggle for existence. Reppert brings the underlying point sharply home, in commenting on the "internalised mouth-noise signals riding on the physical cause-effect chain in a cybernetic loop" view:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
That is why Philip Johnson so aptly said that an implicit exception had to be quietly taken for the materialist theorist. Until we see a really good and straightforward warrant for taking this issue off the table, evolutionary materialism is incoherent and unable to account for the fact of human knowledge, rationality and ability to access truth, never mind the challenge we face of falling into error And, remember, that includes having a very good reason for telling us why the mouth noises being made or symbolised are anything more than chance and necessity determining outcomes through genes, savannahs in East Africa etc, and more immediate psycho- socio- cultural conditioning. KFkairosfocus
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
11:50 AM
11
11
50
AM
PDT
Kantian Naturalist
And once you find yourself asking Cartesian questions, it’s hard to avoid Cartesian answers — I know that my mind is reliable because God guarantees that my mind is reliable when I use it properly — and then the attendant Cartesian-inspired difficulties, such as the mind-body problem, etc.
We do not know that our minds are reliable because "God guarantees it." That would be an act of faith. We know that our minds are reliable because the objects of our perception are common (or potentially common) to two or more individuals. That Descartes was not wise enough to understand this point is irrelevant. Our bodily feelings, emotions, and passions are private. Obviously, they cannot be shared precisely because they are subjective. They are distinct for each individual. I cannot take part in your private experience, and you cannot take part in mine. Our perceptual experiences, on the other hand, are public. When you, I, and others are sitting at the same table, observing wine glasses, plates, and silverware, we are perceptually apprehending the same objects and we both know it. This is what it means to say that we can reliably know the real world as it is. A spoon is really a spoon and we all apprehend it as such. Religious presuppositions have absolutely nothing to do with it.StephenB
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
11:46 AM
11
11
46
AM
PDT
LT claims: he (Jesus) is overshadowed by virtually everyone else with a speaking part. Interesting comment considering: Mark 4:39&41 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm.,,, They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!" and,, John 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.,,," OK LT, Jesus may not have been given to saying many words, but no one in history, with such reliable witness as Jesus has, has had more power over nature when he spoke: Moreover: "I know men, and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man. Superficial minds see a resemblance between Christ and the founders of empires and the gods of other religions. That resemblance does not exist. There is between Christianity and whatever other religions the distance of infinity." - Napoleon Bonaparte Moreover LT, you can go to Buddha's tomb! In fact the fact is that you can go to the graves of all the other founders of all the other major religions of the world and find the remains of a body, Burial places of founders of world religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions Yet, as the Shroud of Turin stubbornly testifies despite many repeated attempts to refute the Shroud’s authenticity, if you go to the tomb of Jesus you will not find the remains of a body because Jesus has risen from the dead. Matthew 28:5-6 The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. Condensed notes on The Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin https://docs.google.com/document/d/15IGs-5nupAmTdE5V-_uPjz25ViXbQKi9-TyhnLpaC9U/edit The following video clearly exposes the infamous 'Jesus Tomb video' as fraudulent: The Jesus Tomb Unmasked - video http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=79FBAC16BD4A15DB Bottom line: when the math is done correctly, probabilities that might be cited in evidence for the Talpiot tomb being the final resting place of the New Testament Jesus are not very impressive and would not even achieve a minimal level of significance as gauged by conventional statistical theory. http://www.designinference.com/documents/2007.07.Jesus_Tomb_Math.pdfbornagain77
January 8, 2013
January
01
Jan
8
08
2013
11:39 AM
11
11
39
AM
PDT
1 16 17 18 19 20 23

Leave a Reply