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Is Killing Scientists to Stop Their Research a Threat to Science?

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I know – the answer seems obvious. But let’s put this in context.

Iranian scientists are being killed, apparently in connection to their research on nuclear power. I’ll add that their deaths can’t reasonably be chalked up to collateral damage – say, someone blowing up a facility and a scientist ends up caught in the blast there. No, these are apparently incidents of scientists specifically being targeted and killed owing to what they’re researching and the practical, or at least possible, outcomes of said research.

Now, the particular politics of the Iran situation isn’t what interests me here – what I’m interested in is that some people (indeed, some people motivated largely by secular concerns) think it’s not only permissible to stop a scientist from conducting research, but it can be imperative to the point that killing him is justified. The interesting thing is, if someone is sympathetic to the idea, they seem to be sympathetic to the following claim: scientific knowledge and research needs to be tightly controlled, with some research off-limits for some, possibly all, people. Put another way, sometimes brutally squashing scientific research – being anti-science – is necessary.

There are a lot of interesting questions and considerations that could come up from this line of questioning, but there’s one particular issue I think this draws attention to.

The definition of an anti-scientific belief I’m using amounts to this: any belief that condones or encourages the opposition, active limiting and/or undermining of scientific research, or acquiring scientific knowledge. Refusing to fund this or that project wouldn’t be a case of anti-science under this definition. Blowing up a scientist to keep him from researching something would be. Likewise, anti-science is issue specific – if you love and support funding cancer research but you’re all in favor of jailing scientists for attempting to find ways to create newer, more deadly chemical weapons, you’re still taking an anti-science position among your spread of positions.

I noted above that, if someone thinks it’s permissible or even necessary to kill a scientist in order to keep them or anyone else from acquiring scientific knowledge or engaging in scientific research, that said someone is endorsing an anti-science position. Water it down – maybe you don’t kill the scientist, but you do ensure he can’t continue his research – and you’re still left with an anti-science position. Water it down further – maybe it’s not the knowledge you’re concerned with, but the research methods he uses (say, vivisection of human children, the genetically or socially undesirable, etc). Congratulations – you’re still anti-science with regards to that question.

Now, I can imagine a few responses to this. One would be to claim that my definition of anti-science is incorrect, and anti-science really means (some other definition) which doesn’t brand the examples I listed as anti-science. This would put someone in the position of saying the following: “Just because you blow some scientist’s brains out to keep him from engaging in scientific research doesn’t mean you were anti-science!” By all means, let’s see someone make that case. It will be fun to dissect.

Another would be to claim that not all anti-science positions are equal. And I’d agree: I think there’s a difference between someone who opposes infant vivisection versus someone who opposes animal experimentation versus someone who opposes North Korean scientists researching new, deadly strains of biological weapons. Maybe one anti-science position is wrong and another is right. My reply would simply be that just because a position is right doesn’t mean it’s anti-science. Back to the first example: killing a scientist to stop or suppress his research is anti-science. That a person thinks it was the right thing to do no more changes the anti-science aspect of it than it changes the killing aspect of it.

A third response could be a whole lot of frantic bluster, misrepresentation, subject-changing, and signing off with an empty slogan. My reply here would be, “Hi, Nick.”

Anyway, these possible responses aren’t exhaustive or meant to be. But I think the ultimate take-away lesson is going to be pretty modest: ‘anti-science’, reasonably construed, covers a broad spread of positions. Most people, even most so-called defenders of science, embrace anti-science positions. Why, they may even think physicists should be killed because of the research they knowledge they’re generating for who, or that some biologists or psychologists should be jailed depending on how they’re engaging in their research, or otherwise. I also suspect that some people are going to try and have it both ways – where that guy over there who finds certain research immoral or unethical is anti-science for opposing such research, but their opposition to some research due to it being immoral or unethical is a completely different beast.

Comments
Still don't get it. I would think a caricature of a feminist would be someone who boldly helped herself to whatever she wanted whenever she wanted it. Yours is more of a caricature of a prudish non-feminist if you ask me. I must say I am missing the point of this post in any case. What are you trying to say with it? And regarding Champignon's point, what are the "secular concerns" in question? What is a "secular concern"? Is it a concern that would only be felt by a non-religious person?Timbo
January 17, 2012
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Yes, champ. It tells me that I overestimated the reading comprehension of critics here when I spoke of a caricature of a feminist reacting that way. I'd say you should look up what a 'caricature' is - but since reading comprehension's clearly your weak point... ;)nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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I think that comment tells us more about nullasalus than it does about the hypothetical feminist.champignon
January 17, 2012
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A reader of your prose has got the wrong end of the stick about something you wrote No, a knee-jerk critic who's clearly desperate to find something made some pretty damn wild and amusing speculation based on noting that a given act of science-snuffing was prompted by secular concerns. Pretty innocuous stuff. Now said critic is feeling a bit silly for having made that move, and rather than owe up to their mistake, is griping. The problem's on your end, Chas, not mine. If you wanted to be taken seriously, your criticisms should have been a bit more careful, and a bit less insane. Timbo, Caricature of a feminist.nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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I'm just wondering why a feminist would find a penis scary.Timbo
January 17, 2012
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Largely? These comments sections have around 15-20 theistic regulars, and 3-4 non-theistic regulars. To balance it out, 2-3 of the non-theistic camp here.
If comments are an accurate reflection of readership, then yes, 15-20 significantly exceeds 3-4.
And yes, I know it prompted an inference in you. And I noted how wacky it was.
But you didn't explain why you made the point. Why mention it, if not to convey something? A reader of your prose has got the wrong end of the stick about something you wrote - the significance of "secular concerns" in a piece about science/anti-science and warfare. Rather than psychoanalysing the reader and their shortcomings, you could take the opportunity to clarify.Chas D
January 17, 2012
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You can define their actions to be anti-science if you wish, but that misses the point. What the perpetrators are against is Iran possessing a nuclear weapon, not science. Attacking “science” is merely the means to that end. And I keep using this pretty easy example: they are killing scientists to keep them from engaging in scientific work and research, with the goal of denying them particular scientific knowledge. The spread of that knowledge is being aimed at here and in other situations. Yes, I think that's clearly anti-science, if anything can be so called. Now, if someone wants to define anti-science another way, they're welcome to it. But I think it's going to illustrate some absurdity on their part if they, say... define "doubting evolution" as anti-science, but turn around and say that a group of animal rights activists trashing a lab, or outright barring whatever kinds of scientific research, is not anti-science. If Iran were attempting to buy such a weapon, say from North Korea, and these same people killed the middlemen in the transaction, would they be anti-commerce? Note that I mentioned even in the OP that someone can love and support certain scientific research - call it being 'pro-science' in one situation, if you like - while being anti-science in another. I'm not at all mounting the claim that if you want research X stopped in particular situation then you're against all science everywhere. Likewise, thinking that a given commerce interaction should be barred - yeah, it seems right to call one's stance in that particular situation anti-commerce given the right conditions. It doesn't stop being commerce just because you're selling something horrible, or to a horrible person.nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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Actually, the scientists are employed as weapons engineers, not researchers. I'm not a big fan of warfare, but if we are going to have wars, better that the targets be people employed in or in support of the military than large civilian populations. In this case, the object is to prevent the creation of weapons against large civilian populations.Petrushka
January 17, 2012
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Whoever is killing those Iranian scientists are presumably anti-Iran-possessing-a-nuclear-weapon. And presumably they target scientists because that is where they think they can be most effective in achieving that goal. You can define their actions to be anti-science if you wish, but that misses the point. What the perpetrators are against is Iran possessing a nuclear weapon, not science. Attacking "science" is merely the means to that end. If Iran were attempting to buy such a weapon, say from North Korea, and these same people killed the middlemen in the transaction, would they be anti-commerce?Bruce David
January 17, 2012
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I think characterising science as some kind of object that can be threatened or opposed is really unhelpful. I can get behind this. I think it's completely ridiculous to anthropomorphize science, and man, that is done constantly. "Science has bestowed upon us..." "Science tells us that..." If someone decides that Iran can not be trusted with nuclear bombs, it’s because they are anti-investigating-ways-to-kill-other-people-up. It's not as if researching how to make flowers seem 100% prettier is science, but researching how to wipe pretty flowers out with a new and effective kind of poison is not. Scientists engaging in work and research relevant to certain knowledge are being targeted and killed, specifically to halt and cripple their knowledge and research. "Anti-science" is thrown around as a description of all manner of things and people. I find it pretty odd that - at least for the people who think "anti-science" is a good term to use - there's marked resistance to regarding the killing of scientists to stop their research, or halting/forbidding various kinds of scientific research, as anti-science.nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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kf, I made sure not to judge, in either direction, the killing of the scientists. That's not my point. My point was simply that killing scientists to halt their research is about as obviously anti-science of an act as you can hope to have. I also pointed out that, under this view, sometimes an anti-science act is entirely justified in my view.nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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Something you felt worthy of note for a largely ‘non-secular’ audience. Largely? These comments sections have around 15-20 theistic regulars, and 3-4 non-theistic regulars. To balance it out, 2-3 of the non-theistic camp here. And yes, I know it prompted an inference in you. And I noted how wacky it was. It's a little like a caricature of a feminist playing I Spy in the car, and her answer to everything is 'a big scary penis!' It says more about her than what she's seeing.nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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On that basis, would you have terminated the Manhattan Project?Grunty
January 17, 2012
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If you bomb and destroy a hydroelectric dam (as the Brits did in the WWII Dambusters raid) does that mean you are anti-renewable energy? Probably not as the Brits also used hydroelectric power. This general question of anti-science in these terms seems rather pointless.Grunty
January 17, 2012
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I think characterising science as some kind of object that can be threatened or opposed is really unhelpful. When the word is used like this, I think it's worth substituting the word "science" for what is presumably meant. For example, the title of this thread, "Is Killing Scientists to Stop Their Research a Threat to Science?" Here, I imagine the thing that is threatened is the research of the scientists being killed. So we would have "Is Killing Scientists to Stop Their Research a Threat to their research?" What can't be meant is something like "all of man's accumulated knowledge". So what does "anti-science" mean? Anti-knowledge? Anti-investigation? Anti-understanding? Everyone will be guilty of one of those at some time. If someone decides that Iran can not be trusted with nuclear bombs, it's because they are anti-investigating-ways-to-kill-other-people-up. Not because they are anti-science, if you say they are also anti-science then I think the term is useless.Dunsinane
January 17, 2012
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Considering I nowhere said, nor even implied, that it would be “OK” if the motivations were religious, nor did I suggest anywhere that religious people are somehow as a group immune to such things. You may want to reflect on whether it “leaps out at you” due to some psychological flaw on your part.
It leaps out at me because you felt the need to parenthetically draw attention to the secular nature of their concerns. Whatever your motivations for doing that, and whatever my psychological flaws, I am merely reporting that it prompted in me an inference that you perceive, and wish to convey, something noteworthy in 'secularity', which draws a distinction from something 'non-secular' - ie, religion. Something you felt worthy of note for a largely 'non-secular' audience. Otherwise, why mention it?Chas D
January 17, 2012
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If the scientific research is a threat to people then people have a right and duty to take a stand to stop it. Science does not care about "right" and "wrong", people do (or should). So it doesn't take an anti-science stance, just the knowledge of right and wrong.Joe
January 17, 2012
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Null: Sad to say, there is a war on, and the scientists (pure and applied) and engineers in question, are as much on the front lines as infantry; decades ago, Israel did much the same with ex Nazi rocket researchers in Egypt. Looks to me like quite likely nuke or nuke threshold high intensity fighting within 6 - 10 months [note threats to Hormuz, "exercises" etc], unless something drastic changes. BTW, one of my profs used to help run a research reactor in Iran in the 70's, so the issue is, weaponising. As is generally concluded. What is going on now is the modern equivalent of border clashes. Was it El Al just had their web site crashed by somebody's hackers? And Stuxnet -- with hecho en Israel all but written on the opening page -- blew up a lot of centrifuges in Iran? In short, we are seeing garbled, spin-wracked, gappy early reports of the initial skirmishes. If this goes all the way US$110/bbl oil will look cheap. KFkairosfocus
January 17, 2012
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And there we go. Some, certainly not all, anti-science can be justified. Something being “anti-science” does not in and of itself make it worthy of condemnation.
Absolutely – depends on the particular definition of anti-science.  Also, under some definitions being anti-science may be worthy of condemnation but then the debate moves on to whether a particular case is actually an example of that definition of anti-science.  Take the astrology example.  If someone defends astrology on the grounds that they have scientific evidence then the issue is not whether it is bad to be anti-science when discussing evidence but whether astrology is a case of anti-science i.e. how good is the evidence.  On the other hand if they defend it on the grounds that all that science stuff is soulless and stultifying and we should listen to our intuitions then we are debating the value of the scientific approach and I would condemn them as being anti-science.markf
January 17, 2012
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You seem in a rather aggressive mood this morning – I hope you slept OK. Golly gee, was I... curt? Heavens to Betsy. If you include busting up labs, killing scientists, and discouraging particular scientific research in order to avoid a catastrophe as anti-science then fine. And if the potential catastrophe is large enough then I have no problem with that particular kind of anti-science. There we go. You support some anti-science acts and policies - not so hard to say, eh? Most people do, according to varying standards and thresholds. Homeopathy is probably too controversial example. Let’s take astrology. I don’t think there have been any scientific studies to justify astrology. Sure there have. Let's say the studies all suck - but not everyone is necessarily going to know or understand that. And maybe they think any studies 'debunking' astrology are flawed - again, perhaps wrongly. Where's the anti-science coming in in those situations? Either way, you say again... So anti-science can mean many things – and is sometimes a justified position. And there we go. Some, certainly not all, anti-science can be justified. Something being "anti-science" does not in and of itself make it worthy of condemnation.nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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Nullasus You seem in a rather aggressive mood this morning – I hope you slept OK.
Unless you want to argue that intentionally busting up labs, killing scientists, and discouraging particular scientific research is somehow not “anti-science”.
It depends on how you want to define anti-science.  If you include busting up labs, killing scientists, and discouraging particular scientific research in order to avoid a catastrophe as anti-science then fine.  And if the potential catastrophe is large enough then I have no problem with that particular kind of anti-science.
Except people who are all agog over homeopathy often believe that both scientific methods and arguments favor homeopathy.
Homeopathy is probably too controversial example.  Let’s take astrology.  I don’t think there have been any scientific studies to justify astrology.
And if failing to be aware of or properly understand scientific arguments makes one anti-science, then markf, odds are you yourself are anti-science.
I didn’t say anything about not being aware of or properly understanding scientific arguments.  I have no doubt that all us from Newton to a four year old are guilty of this.  I am talking about rejecting the empirical observation in favour of anecdote, superstition, or cultural assumptions.
Wow, alright. So, if you believe there is bias in scientific institutions, you’re anti-science.
I didn’t say biased – I said corrupt. As Kuhn pointed out most scientific institutions have a paradigm – their idea of what is correct in their field.  This paradigm may be wrong and it may be hard work to overthrow it.  But this is different from being corrupt which would, for example, involve members of the institution knowing  they were wrong and continuing to pretend they were right.  No doubt some scientific institutions at some times have been corrupt and in these cases being anti-science is justified.
Alright, so “scientism” is “giving science and scientists respect”, and if you think we do that too much – say, if complain that scientists are attempting to apply science to non-scientific questions – you’re anti-science.
I think it is broader than that.  Nothing wrong with debating whether a particular question is open to science. In this respect I define anti-science as a feeling that the whole scientific approach is in some way undermining some basic values.  It has a long history going back at least to Wordsworth: Our meddling intellect Misshapes the beauteous forms of things: — We murder to dissect. So anti-science can mean many things – and is sometimes a justified position.  I don’t normally associate the assassination of scientists as in the Iran case with anti-science but if you want to include it then in this case I think it may be justified depending on the consequences of not doing it (In any case the justification turns on whether assassination of innocent people to avoid catastrophe is justified – the fact they are scientists is not relevant).  This case has little to do with disapproving of science as a general activity or belittling  the scientific method as a method of knowing about things.markf
January 17, 2012
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I don’t know what these people actually were, but the ‘science’ of bomb-building has been pretty well worked out. Just because one person or one large group has certain knowledge doesn't mean that suddenly everyone has it - sometimes research has to be carried out independently, sometimes tests of designs need to be carried out. Though I'm glad to see someone drawing a distinction between science and engineering for a change. but the argument that terminating researchers is “anti-science” holds no more water than the argument that terminating bomb-builders is “anti-engineering”. Alright. So to repeat the surprisingly common claim: just because you kill a bunch of scientists to stop their research doesn't mean your act is an anti-science one. Likewise, passing laws to keep certain research from being done also isn't an anti-science act. The fact that someone "feels threatened" doesn't mean their ensuing acts are anti-science ones. Many people who oppose genetic modifications of food "feel threatened". If they pass laws to stop the research, if they bust up the labs to wreck the research, then yes, I think that's clearly anti-science. Unless someone thinks being "anti-science" requires something like 'having a hatred for the scientific method'. In which case, sure, killing scientists to stop their research isn't anti-science. In fact, it seems no one is or has been engaged in any anti-science acts of any kind. This leaps out at me. To declare them as motivated by “secular concerns” is a swipe at air – would it be OK if they were motivated by religious ones? Or would religious motivation stay their hand, as it does for, say fundamentalist terrorists, or anti-abortion extremists? Oh, hang on, it doesn’t. Considering I nowhere said, nor even implied, that it would be "OK" if the motivations were religious, nor did I suggest anywhere that religious people are somehow as a group immune to such things. You may want to reflect on whether it "leaps out at you" due to some psychological flaw on your part.nullasalus
January 17, 2012
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I don't know what these people actually were, but the 'science' of bomb-building has been pretty well worked out. So have the general engineering principles of delivery. So these people were engaged in the practical issue of creating a viable bomb for their country. I'm not aware that they were researching new technologies. Not that this matters overly-much, but the argument that terminating researchers is "anti-science" holds no more water than the argument that terminating bomb-builders is "anti-engineering". Citizens of another country feel threatened, so they choose that extreme measure. They have also created and released viruses into their enrichment control systems - is that "anti-computing"?
some people (indeed, some people motivated largely by secular concerns)
This leaps out at me. To declare them as motivated by "secular concerns" is a swipe at air - would it be OK if they were motivated by religious ones? Or would religious motivation stay their hand, as it does for, say fundamentalist terrorists, or anti-abortion extremists? Oh, hang on, it doesn't.Chas D
January 17, 2012
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Meanwhile we worked like crazy with our scientists to develop our own. This was not anti-science. This is winning the war. Actually, it really seems like both. Unless you want to argue that intentionally busting up labs, killing scientists, and discouraging particular scientific research is somehow not "anti-science". a) Not recognising scientific methods and arguments as valid e.g. continuing to take homeopathy seriously Except people who are all agog over homeopathy often believe that both scientific methods and arguments favor homeopathy. And if failing to be aware of or properly understand scientific arguments makes one anti-science, then markf, odds are you yourself are anti-science. b) Believing scientific institutions in general to be in some way corrupt or something e.g. Denyse Wow, alright. So, if you believe there is bias in scientific institutions, you're anti-science. So Dan Shechtman and those sympathetic to him were anti-science for a while. c) Believing that we give science and scientists too much respect when making decisions e.g. anyone who worries about scientism Alright, so "scientism" is "giving science and scientists respect", and if you think we do that too much - say, if complain that scientists are attempting to apply science to non-scientific questions - you're anti-science. However, if you kill a scientist with the express hope of halting his research - or if you bar certain research from being performed - that's not an anti-science act. Thanks for clearing that up, mark!nullasalus
January 16, 2012
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I would define anti-science differently. In the second world war we did out damnest to prevent Germany developing a nuclear weapon. I don't think we assassinated any German scientists working on it, but I am sure we would have if we could. Meanwhile we worked like crazy with our scientists to develop our own. This was not anti-science. This is winning the war. There have always been debates about whether there are some areas of scientific research we should not engage in for ethical reasons (e.g. GM) - sometimes the opposition is lead by distinguished scientists. This is not anti-science either. Anti-science is a) Not recognising scientific methods and arguments as valid e.g. continuing to take homeopathy seriously b) Believing scientific institutions in general to be in some way corrupt or something e.g. Denyse c) Believing that we give science and scientists too much respect when making decisions e.g. anyone who worries about scientismmarkf
January 16, 2012
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Not at all, Champ - I've been talking with Nick for years. It's why I'm able to summarize his responses with such uncanny accuracy. ;)nullasalus
January 16, 2012
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A third response could be a whole lot of frantic bluster, misrepresentation, subject-changing, and signing off with an empty slogan. My reply here would be, “Hi, Nick.”
He's really gotten under your skin, hasn't he?champignon
January 16, 2012
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It’s more practical. They’re assassinations, of course. And not because the perpetrator doesn’t like science or progress, but only because these scientists were thought to be designing nuclear weapons. Right. A situation where scientists are being scientists - researching, performing experiments, using the scientific method to test and refine a hypothesis to produce some knowledge. Except some people don't want those scientists or the people employing them to engage in that research, so they're in favor of assassinating them. Sure, they're not "against science" in the broad sense of hating all science - but they don't need to be. And yes, they certainly are against progress - specifically, the scientific and technological progress of the people and nation they're targeting. That's the whole point. If an anti-science goal, position or act is defined to mean opposing science in the broad sense, then another problem pops up: apparently, no one is anti-science. Not protestors who trash animal research labs. Not people who bar whatever kinds of science due to their moral qualms about it. Not people who oppose teaching evolution. It doesn't add up, and we end up in the situation I describe in the OP: killing scientists to suppress their research and discoveries somehow is not anti-science. Just because the knowledge is dangerous, or would be dangerous in certain hands, doesn't mean it's no longer scientific knowledge. Likewise, suppressing scientific knowledge and the people trying to acquire it is still clearly anti-science. Or you can commit to something like the claim I mentioned: just because you're killing a scientist to stop him and others from acquiring certain knowledge doesn't meant you're against any scientific research.nullasalus
January 16, 2012
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It's more practical. They're assassinations, of course. And not because the perpetrator doesn't like science or progress, but only because these scientists were thought to be designing nuclear weapons. A related question was once raised about whether the drummer boys in the Civil War, whose ages averaged 12 or 13, were valid military targets. I think the consensus was in the affirmative due to their important role in communications, and not because someone didn't like musical expression.Querius
January 16, 2012
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