Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP 46: A big questions challenge — confident objective knowledge vs grand delusion in a going-concern world

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In recent weeks, we have seen again and again how the acid of hyperskepticism has reduced our civilisation’s confidence in self-awareness much less understanding of the world and its roots. Even as Evolutionary Materialistic Scientism, Officialdom and their media promoters (and censors) seek to create a dominant narrative. So, how do we attack this issue?

First, let’s reduce it to a graphic:

Once that is on the table, it is clear that our diverse worldviews and the extent to which any such can claim to be well warranted knowledge are at the crux of the matter. As a key aspect, as we are ourselves embedded (“apparently,” embodied with brains, senses tied to brains and self-awareness) in the going concern world, self-referentiality is inescapably entangled in the matter. So are questions of origins and the root of reality. The hyperskepticism-induced loss of confidence is manifest in our tendency to radical relativism, subjectivism and emotivism, all of which suffer serious self-referentiality challenges and undermine claimed knowledge.

Such surfaces the grand delusion challenge long ago exemplified by Plato in his parable of the cave:

Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

Of course, we should not neglect the cynical, power-manipulation Overton Window dimension of this parable:

Yes, in a hyperskeptical-cynical world, somebody is looking to gain power and likely wealth from our loss of confidence. We must bear that in mind. Similarly, the now commonly used parable of blind men and an elephant is instructive:

Here, we can focus Jesus of Nazareth’s remark on good/bad eyes, from his Sermon on the Mount, using words that tellingly echo Plato’s parable:

Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear [spiritually perceptive], your whole body will be full of light [benefiting from God’s precepts]. 23 But if your eye is bad [spiritually blind], your whole body will be full of darkness [devoid of God’s precepts]. So if the [very] light inside you [your inner self, your heart, your conscience] is darkness, how great and terrible is that darkness! [AMP]

That’s the elephant we face!

The question is, are we willing to acknowledge that someone has a better, more valid overall picture than we do? (Our tendency to cynical hyperskepticism tends to lock us into, “no.” It also tends to make us miss that relativism or the like equally claims to be the better big-picture. Incoherent self-referentiality, again.)

So, we come to a Reidian, common sense driven conclusion in two principles:

Sawing off the branch on which we sit is absurd and ruinous

REID+, 1 — Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd, and

REID+, 2 — Principle of Common Sense Credulity: While our common sense reliance on our senses and perceptions may be mistaken in detail, the inference that our common sense view of the going-concern world we share is delusional on the whole is thus . . . saw- off– the- branch- on- which- we- all- sit . . . absurd.

In that light, we can address the chain of concerns in the first graphic above:

  1. We have reason to believe our common sense experience of the going-concern, everyday world, though limited and subject to correction in detail (and obviously a macroscopic, slow-speed, localised view), is on the whole reliable and reasonably accurate; thus, Plantinga-sense fit for purpose relative to knowledge acquisition.
  2. Knowledge in the going-concern world thus becomes possible on three levels: first, our personal world experience as self-aware creatures is just that, undeniably our experience. If one is appeared to redly and roundly, that is a datum of experience.
  3. Secondly, as we can see from 2 + 3 = 5 — i.e. || + ||| –> ||||| — or error exists or inescapable first principles [including first principles . . . and, yes, associated Ciceronian first duties . . . of right reason], there are certain truths that are self-evident, certain, plumb line that — while never nearly enough to frame and furnish a worldview — serve as key tests for soundness.
  4. Third, for practical thought, work, education, media, science, governance, community and life, a weaker, corrigible sense of knowledge is also reasonable: warranted, credibly true (so, tested and reliable) belief.
  5. This weak sense may indeed have in it various errors, but is corrigible in light of first self evident principles informed by our experiences. However, such cannot amount to a Plato’s cave grand delusion, on pain of collapsing credibility of rationality thus our own selves as rational creatures.
  6. In this light, we can dismiss general hyperskepticism as a grand delusion fallacy; and if it is selectively applied to what one is inclined to dismiss (oh, YOU have to prove beyond all arbitrary doubt that . . .) , it is little more than an excuse for question-begging hostile closed mindedness.
  7. Further to these, disciplines of thought are feasible and can build up valid bodies of credible but corrigible knowledge claims: philosophy, ethics, physics, mathematics, sciences and arts generally, including history, theology etc.

We can directly apply the above to an analysis of ourselves, i.e. we can partially and yet credibly form a self-understanding. A useful framework for this is the Smith model:

Simplifying for our purposes:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

Here, we see that a two-tier cybernetic loop controller view allows us to raise the issue that the supervisory controller may embed an oracle expressing volition and intuition (including moral intuition) etc, allowing transcending of undecidability and halting problems etc that plague Turing-based computational substrates.

Where, obviously, such an oracle is not simplified to being a higher level Turing machine; that would only export the Turing problem up one level.

When queried or informed implying a query, the oracle issues a single stage answer and is a black box relative to the Turing paradigm. Thus to some degree it embeds a knowledge and intuitions base. In addition, in supervisory state, it frames the context in which action is taken, being further informed by rational, responsible (so, moral sense, conscience-guided) freedom.

From that going concern self-model, we may proceed to address the basis for, dynamics of and origins of a world that includes such creatures. Notice, this is an onward question, for without a frame for rational, responsible, knowing, free but guided thought, decision and action, there is no basis for addressing how can we know a now passed past of origins and linked substructure on roots of reality. (The attempt to hopelessly entangle ontology with epistemology, fails.)

In that context, we can immediately see that causes create effects, which may come in degrees. How much sugar is in a glass of water affects how sweet it will taste. This has immediate applications, e.g. here is a video screenshot I recently shared with policy influencers, i/l/o issues on Ivermectin — and note, this is not to excite a side-debate. (Yes, I am aware of the report of a study on Ivermectin, but frankly fear it can be twisted into a kill-shot attempt given the toxic, ideological and interests distorted state of such research.) Note, Peru is a state with about 33 million people in 25 states, comparable to Canada at 36 millions:

It is in that context (with other similar real-world, observational study/experience driven results/evidence) that the Frontline Doctors have just challenged Officialdom on Ivermectin:

Underlying, given intent to address roots of reality, is the logic of being . . . which we can know based on analysis:

Compare, a flame:

An igniting match (a contingent being)

. . . with the fire tetrahedron, which gives causal conditionality:

Fires are contingent, possible beings, even as square circles are impossible of being:

One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time

So, now, we can contemplate another order of possible being. To see it, try to imagine a distinct world in which two-ness, distinct identity etc do not exist. Or where it begins or may cease. Immediately, such fails as a distinct world W must differ from its neighbour W’ by having some A not in W’, in effect W = {A|~A} where ~A = W’. We see that two-ness is part of the framework for any world, so once there undeniably is a world [ours] it is a necessary being, part of the fabric of any world. That applies to mathematics and its universal power, but it shows that necessary, world framework entities are real.

The root of reality, world zero, W0, in effect, embeds such beings with the additional point that through origins processes such must account causally for this world, We.

This brings to bear issues on fine tuning evidence, the complex, functionally specific, algorithm, code and language using framework of cell based life, body plan biodiversity requiring 10 – 100+ million bits of incremental information per plan, and our own morally governed, minded life.

Those questions and many more are not going to go away quietly simply because they are inconvenient to today’s establishment. END

Comments
One of the common observations that humans have had over the centuries is that we are all different and yet we are all the same in some ways. Books/treatises have been written on both. There are a large number of characteristics that vary widely between individuals such as physical, size, color of skin, eyes, hair, muscle types, bone types and other physical characteristics. Then there are other characteristics that are mental in origin such as intelligence, aptitudes and importantly attitudes. And there are physical/mental characteristics such as language, dexterity/agility, artistic ability and other skills. Some of these characteristics that are common identify us as human which are mostly physical but other characteristics that also seem innate in most humans and are mental. To be effective in the world any worldview has to recognize these givens.jerry
July 18, 2021
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By trying to suggest that the senses must be reinterpreted away from what they manifestly tell us, the accuracy of the senses is under objection, with the implication that the world and embodiment we experience are — arbitrarily — suspect.
We send vehicles/instruments to the far reaches of the solar system. We build massive cities with ever increasing efficiency. We have technology that provides expanding benefits at fractions of past costs. The lists go on and on. How? By assessing the external environment through the efforts of millions of independent observations and then analyzing what is effective and what is not. All through an understanding of some external world to ourselves. Our sensory information which if fairly common among nearly all is at the heart of this.jerry
July 18, 2021
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Physicists spent decades trying to reconcile quantum experimental evidence with the "common sense, common experience" perspective of "what our senses manifestly tell us," and failed in all efforts, closing all available "loopholes" that would preserve the idea of "local reality." "Local reality" is basically the concept that things exist outside of our conscious experience which have innate, discrete states that provide information about those innate, "real" states to us, which our mind interprets as such. This has been proven false, inasmuch as science and experiment can prove something false. Factually contradictory states can be observed as what their senses "manifestly tell them" between different observers. This does not mean that the actual data from our senses was in error: it only means that what we thought that data meant and what we thought that data was about was an incorrect interpretation. Changing one's interpretation of data, or at least questioning it and exploring other interpretations in light of new evidence, is not the end of rationality; it is the essence of it. It's what rational people do - at least, those who are not pre-committed, ideologically, to the old interpretation.William J Murray
July 18, 2021
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Do we have a conscious experience of sensory embodiment in a 3D external world in some dreams? Yes or no?William J Murray
July 18, 2021
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So, again, KF's entire argument depends on conveniently sweeping out counterfactuals, such as uncommon experience, dreams, astral projection, the proven-false idea of a material world, other prior false interpretations of common sensory data writ large, etc., and classifying them as "error." He asserts his own interpretation is not possibly rationally "in error," despite counterfactuals, scientific evidence and countless uncommon experiences that clearly indicate his interpretation of sensory data is entirely, rationally questionable, to put it charitably.William J Murray
July 18, 2021
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By trying to suggest that the senses must be reinterpreted away from what they manifestly tell us, the accuracy of the senses is under objection, with the implication that the world and embodiment we experience are — arbitrarily — suspect.
Our senses do not "manifestly" tell us any such thing, because "we" also experience dreams where we have much the same experience. Also, many of us have other conscious, full-sensory, even hyper-sensory experiences in different bodies in different "worlds." Also, we now have the scientific evidence that clearly indicates that our prior interpretation of what our senses represented is factually in error.
The result is, grand delusion cascade as long since warned.
No, it is not. The "grand delusion cascade) you speak of is entirely the conceptual product and subset of your interpretation of what the data from our sense represents. It does not apply to, nor can be derived from, a different interpretation of what those senses represent. Thus, the rest of your comment fails, because it is applying an inapplicable perspective to evaluate an entirely different interpretation of what sensory data is about. You might as well be saying that from the Newtonian physics perspective, quantum physics opens the door to grand delusion. No, it does not, because Newtonian physics is an inapplicable framework by which to evaluate quantum physics theory and experimental results.William J Murray
July 18, 2021
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KF keeps conflating the logical necessity of utilizing truth statements with a duty to "tell the truth." The logical necessity of identification, non-contradiction and excluded middle, and "telling the truth" are two entirely different things. KF asserts we have a "duty" to tell the truth; and that even when we lie, the lie works only because of the assumed expectation of general, dutiful truth-telling. IOW, his point is that lies are only effective within the assumption of duty to tell the truth. If lying breaks down the assumption of truth-telling, society breaks down as, effectively, nobody can trust anything anyone says. Okay, fair enough. I don't walk around thinking everyone is lying to me. But, I also don't walk around with the expectation that everyone is telling me the truth, either. I don't have an assumption that it is anyone's "duty" to tell me the truth. My experience tells me that (1) everyone lies about something, now and then, even if it's just a white lie or a lie of omission; (2) very often, even when people believe they are telling the truth, it's not reflective of a theoretical "the truth," rather, it's reflective of their own personal perspective, and (3) the assumption that, in general, others are obeying a truth-telling duty is a naive and even perhaps dangerous way to live. It's better to assess the words of others in terms of other things, like their personal history of being truthful with you, their own potential conflicts of interest wrt the subject matter, and some critical reasoning about what they are saying and the subject matter itself. Also, a good handle on physical "tells" that indicate deliberate deceit is a good skill to develop, but is not conclusive. IMO, the whole "duty" angle is just a naive way of interacting with other people, institutions, media, information, etc. Beyond all of that, though, is a more fundamental issue. What are we telling the truth about? KF apparently believes he is telling the truth about an objective reality external of both his and my experience. He believes he is telling the truth when he asserts what my reasons and motivations are for saying what I say, and when he characterizes my behavior in certain ways. He believes he is telling the truth when he makes statements about "common human experience" and what is "obvious." The problem is, outside of existential unavoidables we've all agreed are valid for every sentient experience, there's simply no way for KF to know his statements are true about anyone else - about how they think, what their reasons and motivations are, what they experience, etc. When he makes those kind of statements, he is projecting his own thoughts and experiences onto others, as if they *must* be referencing the same general experiences as he, and they *must* have the same kind of reasons and motivations he would have in their shoes if he was saying the things they say. His constant projections and mind-reading is an entirely self-referential display. I don't do anything I do out of or because of duty. I don't say anything I say out of duty. I do it all out of preference and enjoyment, even when I choose to obey or disobey actual duties imposed by actual authorities in light of actual consequences. When I arrange my words here inescapably in the form of truth statements about my life, my reasons, my motivations (even if I was lying about it,) it does not represent a duty, it's just an inescapable fact about how thought and communication works, which KF erroneously interprets as me being "dutiful" to truth. I do not "expect" that anyone here has a "duty," or will "fulfill" such a duty, by submitting to or accepting logical conclusions. That may be the reason and expectation that KF and others have; that's not why I'm here, and that's not what I expect or think. I don't use the same common phrases KF uses for the same reasons, or from the same expectations or with the same implications that KF uses those words or phrases; they do not imply or indicate adherence to or appeal to any so-called "duty." I don't say them out of duty; I am not appealing to any "duty" on KF's part. If I was trying to get KF to "listen to reason and evidence" and expected him to acquiesce to logic and reason, THEN KF would have a point to argue - that my expectation that he or others would do so could only be an expectation in relationship to an assumed "duty" on his part (or so his argument goes, apparently) to acquiesce in the face of logic and evidence. But, I do not expect that. That's not why I'm here, and that's not why I'm participating, that's not my goal or desire. I don't expect him to read what I write here and say, "Oh, well, good point, you're right." I don't anticipate that reaction because I don't hold that he has any duty or obligation to do so. From my perspective, people believe what they prefer to believe, and I have no problem with that, because I believe what I prefer to believe. I expect that KF and everyone else will write what he prefers to write; interpret how he prefers to interpret, characterize me and others how he prefers to do so, every single time.William J Murray
July 18, 2021
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WJM Nobody is arguing against “accuracy of the senses.” What is being argued is not the sensory data itself, but what the sensory data represents
Kairosfocus By trying to suggest that the senses must be reinterpreted away from what they manifestly tell us, the accuracy of the senses is under objection, with the implication that the world and embodiment we experience are — arbitrarily — suspect.
:))) KF you broke WJM 's mojo that sound like that :" What is being argued is not x itself, but what the x represents " . In the case of our senses there is nothing to be interpreted they are what they are and nobody in the right mind argue about what they are.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 18, 2021
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WJM, your rejection of the evident simply further manifests the problem. Let us note this, in response to the first facts of consciousness, that we are embodied with certain bodily senses, in a wider world:
Nobody is arguing against “accuracy of the senses.” What is being argued is not the sensory data itself, but what the sensory data represents, how it should be best understood and organized according to the evidence and logic.
By trying to suggest that the senses must be reinterpreted away from what they manifestly tell us, the accuracy of the senses is under objection, with the implication that the world and embodiment we experience are -- arbitrarily -- suspect. The result is, grand delusion cascade as long since warned. If the intelligent consciousness we experience cannot be expected to correctly sense our embodiment and interaction with a world, it would be discredited including attempted reasoning and interpretations. Self referential undermining. And of course an implicit appeal to duty to right reason lurks. The sounder approach is common sense, taking due note that as our minds are plastic, some will go out of their way to construct alternative views. However, often, such saw off the branch on which we sit. One who is sufficiently determined to do so, can then spin out shadow show after shadow show, insisting that the real problem is common sense. Sad. KFkairosfocus
July 18, 2021
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KF says:
1: Appeal to accuracy of senses, and thus to embodiment in the common world, and to duty to truth.
Nobody is arguing against "accuracy of the senses." What is being argued is not the sensory data itself, but what the sensory data represents, how it should be best understood and organized according to the evidence and logic.
What now becomes interesting is, why pay so high a price, to sustain denial? The answer has to be, that somehow, being responsible and morally governed, so accountable before intelligible principles, is somehow perceived as an affront to freedom rather than an aspect of intelligent, rational, responsible freedom.
Pure projection and mind-reading, assigning others motivations convenient to your perspective.
To which, the answer is, liberty is not licence. That is, community requires due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. That is, the civil peace of justice. Which, yes, means that rights and freedoms are inextricably intertwined with duties.
That depends entirely upon what kind of reality we actually live in. You cannot demonstrate your particular ontology to be universal - as in, necessary or unavoidable. You've admitted it is not. So, your argument depends on evidence and logic. The "evidence" you present is projection (of your own motivations and reasons onto others,) mind-reading, and excludes all non-common experiences, and all evidence, that indicate your ontology to be erroneous or incomplete in order to preserve your "common sense realism."William J Murray
July 18, 2021
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Because you argue towards objectivity, the moral reasoning to respect life is going to end up with an absent emotional basis. So you end up with some reasoning that respects life, while the emotion to appreciate life is disregarded. You have not acknowledged the obvious truth that atheist beliefs are geared towards objectivity. My very simple theory is, if you don't pay dedicated attention to subjective issues, as by for instance not acknowledging the validity of subjectivity intellectually, and focusing on just objectivity, then you will make bad personal opinions. Although it could also be argued that solely intuitive understanding of subjectivity, without the intellectual understanding, provides better personal opinions. Intellectual understanding of subjectivity, provides more imminent control over personal opinions. Like that you could choose the opinion not to like a painting, eventhough from the lower level intuitive decisionmaking processess, you do like it. Atheists have a more natural way of subjectivity, guided solely by intuition, while the religious have a more stately way of subjectivity, that also includes rites, wisdom, and immediate control. I think that is the advantage / appeal that atheists had in the sixties and seventies. How they became popular, by their intuitive ways. But I guess that advantage is only when there are few atheists in society, and not like now, when there is a lot of them. When the whole emotional life turns to crap, because of widespread lack of intellectual acknowledgement of subjectivity.mohammadnursyamsu
July 18, 2021
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so accountable before intelligible principles, is somehow perceived as an affront to freedom rather than an aspect of intelligent, rational, responsible freedom.
Yep this is all about with the mention to be kept in mind : "why Jesus came?" because of an ontologic falling of humanity. If you were 100% right Jesus wasn't a necessity which is not the case. Showing to a man his mistake bluntly in the face make him instinctually to oppose your "accusation" and then to try to rationalize ad-hoc a kind of defense.
that atheists are geared towards objectivity, in disregard of subjectivity.
:))) Are people here who understand what Mohammadnursyamsu is talking about?Lieutenant Commander Data
July 18, 2021
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MNY, moral reasoning on basic principles does provide guidance for behaviour. Try, respect for the first right, life. KFkairosfocus
July 18, 2021
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The errors of subjectivity are to: - conceive of a matter of opinion, as if it was a matter of fact (social darwinism) - to be forced to an opinion (to be forced to say a painting is beautiful provides an invalid opinion) The opinion that it is a good thing to ransack a village, and murder and rape the inhabitants, is a logically valid opinion. Logic provides no guidance in these matters. God provides guidance, by praying to God. Otherwise the laws of the country also provide guidance. But then the wisdom to institute these laws is through prayer, and otherwise, the laws are really only practical for people who pray to God. The laws won't have the intended effect on a corrupt poplulation. There is no strawman of your position in what I write. It is the obvious truth that atheists are geared towards objectivity, in disregard of subjectivity. Which is how they run down society. In light of this assault, only a straightforward unequivocal acceptance of subjectivity is passable. While what you present, is again a feverish advancement of objectivity, as if we didn't have enough of that already.mohammadnursyamsu
July 18, 2021
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MNY, strawman. It has been repeatedly explained, that given our finite, fallible, error-prone, morally struggling, too often ill willed patterns of behaviour, we need to address warrant for knowledge claims. To be free enough to be rational is to be a subject, that is already a significant point. However, our subjectivity is error prone so we need a way to address responsible warrant for claims we make. Noted for record. KFkairosfocus
July 18, 2021
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Jack, turnabout projection. Let me mark up, again: >>All I see>> 1: Appeal to accuracy of senses, and thus to embodiment in the common world, and to duty to truth. >> is hyper-denial of the obvious.>> 2: Beginnings of a turnabout projection. 3: Appeal, of course, to obvious, perceived truth, thus duty to same, to acknowledge it. This is appeal to duties to truth, right reason and warrant (part of prudence). >> On your part.>> 4: Accusation of falsehood on my part, so to failed duty to truth. >>And the toadies.>> 5: Extended to others, where, toady is an ad hominem, as in:
toady (?t??d?) n, pl toadies a person who flatters and ingratiates himself or herself in a servile way; sycophant vb, toadies, toadying or toadied to fawn on and flatter (someone) [C19: shortened from toadeater] ?toadyish adj ?toadyism n Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
6: Of course, this suggests that your argumentation has slipped from the merits to negative emotive appeals. However, it yet again exemplifies how objections cannot but appeal to the first duties of reason they would deny. 7: What now becomes interesting is, why pay so high a price, to sustain denial? The answer has to be, that somehow, being responsible and morally governed, so accountable before intelligible principles, is somehow perceived as an affront to freedom rather than an aspect of intelligent, rational, responsible freedom. 8: To which, the answer is, liberty is not licence. That is, community requires due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities. That is, the civil peace of justice. Which, yes, means that rights and freedoms are inextricably intertwined with duties. KFkairosfocus
July 18, 2021
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Look at this title: "L&FP 46: A Big Questions Challenge — Confident Objective Knowledge Vs Grand Delusion In A Going-Concern World" Could just as well have been the title of an atheist screed advancing the scientific method, over the superstition of religion. It is the same obsession with objectivity and facts, and disregard for subjectivity and personal opinion, that atheists display. The obvious judgement is that you are against God, againt the human spirit, against the spiritual and subjective. And that you then talk about the soul, somehwere, is meaningless. Because the whole thing is geared toward objectivity. Atheists also express personal opinions about what is good, loving and beautiful, but their entire belief system is geared toward objectivity and fact, in disregard of personal opinions.mohammadnursyamsu
July 18, 2021
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LDC: "Nobody forced you to feel the duty of protecting the truth of grammar rules and even if you wouldn’t said it you thought it so is there ,it’s real. Yep that duty you deny you use it." Go get a girlfriend (or boyfriend.) Something tells me you're young and should be off the computer doing things young people do. But I could be wrong.Jack
July 17, 2021
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KF: Jack, the hyperskepticism All I see is hyper-denial of the obvious. On your part. And the toadies.Jack
July 17, 2021
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WJM, LCD has a point. KFkairosfocus
July 17, 2021
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Jack, the hyperskepticism, rejection of the need to respect common sense (on pain of self-referential undermining of credibility of rationality) and the insertion of a switcheroo implied to be just as good is now a cultural theme being pushed by forces of chaos. The pattern is the problem, deeper than specific cases, which are many. Up to and including now a blatant Reichstag fire agitprop ploy. KF PS: As to defining duty, that has been done any number of times and is readily accessible in high quality dictionaries. I will, for record, make a few notes. The pivot is that we credibly are rational, responsible, significantly free creatures, unlike say computational substrates which are GIGO-bound, mechanically and/or stochastically driven entities further shaped by their physical organisation. Such entities are non-rational, cause-effect governed, not sufficiently free to make rational, responsible inferences as to ground-consequent or evidence-support, etc. These systems can be no better than their organisation, inputs, stochastic phenomena, code + algorithms or signal representation and processing etc. Garbage in, garbage out, with no responsible judgement -- that's an oracular, non algorithmic action -- that is a requisite of reason. Where, as OP illustrates, the Smith Model cybernetic loop with two-tier controller and shared memory etc is a useful framework to discuss an embodied cybernetic entity with rational, responsible freedom.) [And yes, a picture is worth a thousand words, though reduction through a description language is technically equivalent. Illustrations, then, are central to serious discussions, including flow and block diagrams of various sorts. I reject, for cause, the notion that only algebraic description languages count. For that matter, there is such a thing as block diagram algebra, and another that used to be called register transfer algebra, now, "language." The language is algebraic.] If one rejects or derides this, already, self-referentiality leads to sawing off the branch on which we sit. The absurd is set aside as false, for cause. Now, how is freedom regulated and rightly guided? This is the context of wisdom, philo- +- sophia being love of same. The mechanically and/or stochastically governed have no choice of true freedom, the significantly free are responsible to use choice towards fulfillment of due or proper ends, which are often naturally evident to the eye of reason. Indeed, the frustration, wrenching out of alignment with or diversion from such ends is a definition of evil and/or folly. Such, predictably ends in chaos, especially where there is a ratcheting factor that creates an avalanche of acceleration over the edge. The concept of oughtness arises in that context, which is the immediate context of duty. Specifically, we ought to use freedom to make responsible, rational choices towards sound ends. Where, for instance, the naturally evident end of mind, rationality, reasoning is truth backed by duly carried out reasoning given our proneness to error, to stubborn folly and to injustice [which often pivots on error or deception]. That oughtness in light of the challenges we face directly leads to duties, which specify proper ends and use of means to said ends. For example truth is accurate description of actually occurring states of affairs. So, duty to truth is duty to accurately describe reality, which immediately engages questions and duties of right reasoning and adequacy of warrant, fairness, honesty and justice. As you, an educated person, already full well understand. In this context -- again, as you fully understand as an educated person -- first principles are antecedents of such responsible reason in action. They pervade the process, are accessible to observation, are intelligible to one with adequate experience, are inescapably embedded in normal reasoning etc. The classic illustration is from Epictetus, which I yet again cite:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]
I challenge you to show that Epictetus is wrong, if you wish to disregard or dismiss his point. Oops, you can't do that without making resort to duty to and presence of distinct identity, non contradiction and excluded middle (these being immediate corollaries). As an educated person, you recognise a paradigm, an instructive classic example that shows how 'tweredun. Likewise, Cicero, in de Legibus, set out to identify what law is by exploring core characteristics. In so doing, he summarised received wisdom. This is not a proof, it is a recognition of antecedents, pervasive first principles. Here, first duties that simply to gain persuasive effect, even objectors implicitly use. Notice, above, G E Moore's similar use of this to establish common sense credulity: the opposed philosophers, trying to deny, are forced to inadvertently appeal to the same common sense facts. Of course, circumstances at the time were such that Moore could not refer to self-evidence without opening up cans of worms. He let the implications speak. While I am at it, I often have found Collins English Dictionary particularly apt in definitions:
duty (?dju?t?) n, pl -ties 1. a task or action that a person is bound to perform for moral or legal reasons 2. respect or obedience due to a superior, older persons, etc: filial duty. 3. the force that binds one morally or legally to one's obligations [--> oughtness is of course moral, and the truly lawful is shaped by the moral premise justice, due balance of rights, freedoms and responsibilities] 4. (Commerce) a government tax, esp on imports 5. (Mechanical Engineering) a. the quantity or intensity of work for which a machine is designed b. a measure of the efficiency of a machine 6. (Agriculture) the quantity of water necessary to irrigate an area of land to grow a particular crop 7. (Military) a. a job or service allocated b. (as modifier): duty rota. 8. (Military) do duty for to act as a substitute for 9. off duty not at work 10. on duty at work [C13: from Anglo-French dueté, from Old French deu due] Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged, 12th Edition 2014 © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2009, 2011, 2014
What is so hard, unintelligible or strange and suspect about that? Are you not aware of the testimony of conscience -- especially SOUND conscience -- regarding duty? (And yes, I am duly correcting the loaded substitution "sharp".)kairosfocus
July 17, 2021
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LCD said:
Like you and WJM keep saying: “The truth is relative(my O/E ,your O/E).”
Never said that, never implied it.William J Murray
July 17, 2021
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It’s “doesn’t” not “don’t” but, I’ll try not to be the grammar police.
Nobody forced you to feel the duty of protecting the truth of grammar rules and even if you wouldn't said it you thought it so is there ,it's real. Yep that duty you deny you use it. ;) The duty is a REALITY , all people use it , even those who try to deny it . Isn't it funny? What you want to say is that the value(the arrow) that duty(bow) use is different. Unfortunatelly for you and WJM ,your arrows can't fly.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 17, 2021
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LCD: "You can’t even understand that you just used duty to truth to deny existence of duty." First, define what a "duty" is, then tell me how I just "used" it. "When somebody don’t understand these obvious types of logical contradictions can’t be helped" It's "doesn't" not "don't" but, I'll try not to be the grammar police. I use lies (anti-truth) sometimes too in the service of my agenda. Does that mean I have a "duty" to lie? "Like you and WJM keep saying: “The truth is relative(my O/E ,your O/E).” This sentence is a logical contradiction when applied on itself." Except my sentence fits perfectly within my O/E and violates no existential unavoidables, such as logic and math. I am internally consistent. And I'm not trying to sell my O/E to anyone as KF and his minions are.Jack
July 17, 2021
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This endless conversation is hopeless. Everyone should have learned the creationist categories in school, when they were 8. Should have been hammered into everyone's brain, by reciting the categories out loud with the whole class. Creator / chooses / spiritual / opinion Creation / chosen / material / fact Then at 12 years old, they would learn the complicated words subjective and objective, and the basic logic of opinion and fact. Then all this hopeless conversation would have been avoided, and everyone would have paid dedicated attention to subjective issues growing up, besides paying attention to objective issues. Instead of as now, that everyone is fact obsessed, and utterly clueless about emotions and personal opinons. Most of all the atheists are clueless, but everyone else is clueless also. Except me, I am not clueless. I had the basic decency / civilization to go and find out what the basic logic of a personal is. And figure it in the creationist conceptual scheme. Doing this simple task made me the greatest over all of you.mohammadnursyamsu
July 17, 2021
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They can’t even define what a “first duty” is without circularity.
You can't even understand that you just used duty to truth to deny existence of duty. When somebody don't understand these obvious types of logical contradictions can't be helped . :) Like you and WJM keep saying: "The truth is relative(my O/E ,your O/E)." This sentence is a logical contradiction when applied on itself.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 17, 2021
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Human action always has emotion as the fundamental drive. You can dress up your actions with "reason" (rationalizations, actually), but in back of it all is always an appeal to emotion. Inescapable. There are no exceptions. "Duties" are not primary. Emotions are primary. The value set and their ranges that trigger those emotions vary wildly from person to person. An area that humans differ from the rest of the animal kingdom is that humans can defer action based on a more desireable future emotional state vs a current one. We can project into the future in our imaginations. But at the end of line, it's always a concern for the desired emotional state.Jack
July 17, 2021
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WJM @281, @286 Nicely put. But cue the whining and complaints that what you say just proves you are acting out your real "first duties" that, [pound the pulpit and stomp the feet] gosh darn it, you just won't cop to. :D They can't even define what a "first duty" is without circularity: It boils down to, "you should to X, because you should do X. And that you do do X proves that you know you should do X." Not to be too redundant, but as my grand-pappy used to say, "that's the crux in a nutshell." Circularity and mind-reading (in the service of their religious agenda, I suspect.) It's all they got. Okay, they have a few ungrounded assumptions as well. :DJack
July 17, 2021
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I guess a lot of people around here, if they didn't believe in objective duties, morality and a sharp conscience, would just naturally veer off into sprees of torture and destruction. I guess it's a good thing that you guys believe in those things. Apparently, I just naturally enjoy doing the kinds of things, and being the kind of person in my life, that others need cosmic threats and mental barbed wire to accomplish. When you see this in terms of projection, all the "mind-reading" and negative-characterizing makes sense.William J Murray
July 17, 2021
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Jerry: "But the person described did the dutifully behaviors" According to his O/E. Not according to any objective unavoidables. "and is not a parasite." A subjective judgement on your part relative to your subjective O/E. "But there cannot be too many or else the society collapses. " This assumes that "society" (whatever that means) is a good thing. That's your subjective O/E talking, not any objective unavoidable duties. And the thing is, we probably agree a lot about what a "good society" entails. But it's not from any "first duties" nonsense. It's how we subjectively feel. It's how our brains happen to be wired up.Jack
July 17, 2021
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