Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

L&FP 46: A big questions challenge — confident objective knowledge vs grand delusion in a going-concern world

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In recent weeks, we have seen again and again how the acid of hyperskepticism has reduced our civilisation’s confidence in self-awareness much less understanding of the world and its roots. Even as Evolutionary Materialistic Scientism, Officialdom and their media promoters (and censors) seek to create a dominant narrative. So, how do we attack this issue?

First, let’s reduce it to a graphic:

Once that is on the table, it is clear that our diverse worldviews and the extent to which any such can claim to be well warranted knowledge are at the crux of the matter. As a key aspect, as we are ourselves embedded (“apparently,” embodied with brains, senses tied to brains and self-awareness) in the going concern world, self-referentiality is inescapably entangled in the matter. So are questions of origins and the root of reality. The hyperskepticism-induced loss of confidence is manifest in our tendency to radical relativism, subjectivism and emotivism, all of which suffer serious self-referentiality challenges and undermine claimed knowledge.

Such surfaces the grand delusion challenge long ago exemplified by Plato in his parable of the cave:

Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

Of course, we should not neglect the cynical, power-manipulation Overton Window dimension of this parable:

Yes, in a hyperskeptical-cynical world, somebody is looking to gain power and likely wealth from our loss of confidence. We must bear that in mind. Similarly, the now commonly used parable of blind men and an elephant is instructive:

Here, we can focus Jesus of Nazareth’s remark on good/bad eyes, from his Sermon on the Mount, using words that tellingly echo Plato’s parable:

Matt 6:22 “The eye is the lamp of the body; so if your eye is clear [spiritually perceptive], your whole body will be full of light [benefiting from God’s precepts]. 23 But if your eye is bad [spiritually blind], your whole body will be full of darkness [devoid of God’s precepts]. So if the [very] light inside you [your inner self, your heart, your conscience] is darkness, how great and terrible is that darkness! [AMP]

That’s the elephant we face!

The question is, are we willing to acknowledge that someone has a better, more valid overall picture than we do? (Our tendency to cynical hyperskepticism tends to lock us into, “no.” It also tends to make us miss that relativism or the like equally claims to be the better big-picture. Incoherent self-referentiality, again.)

So, we come to a Reidian, common sense driven conclusion in two principles:

Sawing off the branch on which we sit is absurd and ruinous

REID+, 1 — Rejection of Grand Delusion: Any world-scheme or alleged first principle of thought that leads to or invites a grand delusion inference is self-referentially absurd, and

REID+, 2 — Principle of Common Sense Credulity: While our common sense reliance on our senses and perceptions may be mistaken in detail, the inference that our common sense view of the going-concern world we share is delusional on the whole is thus . . . saw- off– the- branch- on- which- we- all- sit . . . absurd.

In that light, we can address the chain of concerns in the first graphic above:

  1. We have reason to believe our common sense experience of the going-concern, everyday world, though limited and subject to correction in detail (and obviously a macroscopic, slow-speed, localised view), is on the whole reliable and reasonably accurate; thus, Plantinga-sense fit for purpose relative to knowledge acquisition.
  2. Knowledge in the going-concern world thus becomes possible on three levels: first, our personal world experience as self-aware creatures is just that, undeniably our experience. If one is appeared to redly and roundly, that is a datum of experience.
  3. Secondly, as we can see from 2 + 3 = 5 — i.e. || + ||| –> ||||| — or error exists or inescapable first principles [including first principles . . . and, yes, associated Ciceronian first duties . . . of right reason], there are certain truths that are self-evident, certain, plumb line that — while never nearly enough to frame and furnish a worldview — serve as key tests for soundness.
  4. Third, for practical thought, work, education, media, science, governance, community and life, a weaker, corrigible sense of knowledge is also reasonable: warranted, credibly true (so, tested and reliable) belief.
  5. This weak sense may indeed have in it various errors, but is corrigible in light of first self evident principles informed by our experiences. However, such cannot amount to a Plato’s cave grand delusion, on pain of collapsing credibility of rationality thus our own selves as rational creatures.
  6. In this light, we can dismiss general hyperskepticism as a grand delusion fallacy; and if it is selectively applied to what one is inclined to dismiss (oh, YOU have to prove beyond all arbitrary doubt that . . .) , it is little more than an excuse for question-begging hostile closed mindedness.
  7. Further to these, disciplines of thought are feasible and can build up valid bodies of credible but corrigible knowledge claims: philosophy, ethics, physics, mathematics, sciences and arts generally, including history, theology etc.

We can directly apply the above to an analysis of ourselves, i.e. we can partially and yet credibly form a self-understanding. A useful framework for this is the Smith model:

Simplifying for our purposes:

The Eng Derek Smith Cybernetic Model

Here, we see that a two-tier cybernetic loop controller view allows us to raise the issue that the supervisory controller may embed an oracle expressing volition and intuition (including moral intuition) etc, allowing transcending of undecidability and halting problems etc that plague Turing-based computational substrates.

Where, obviously, such an oracle is not simplified to being a higher level Turing machine; that would only export the Turing problem up one level.

When queried or informed implying a query, the oracle issues a single stage answer and is a black box relative to the Turing paradigm. Thus to some degree it embeds a knowledge and intuitions base. In addition, in supervisory state, it frames the context in which action is taken, being further informed by rational, responsible (so, moral sense, conscience-guided) freedom.

From that going concern self-model, we may proceed to address the basis for, dynamics of and origins of a world that includes such creatures. Notice, this is an onward question, for without a frame for rational, responsible, knowing, free but guided thought, decision and action, there is no basis for addressing how can we know a now passed past of origins and linked substructure on roots of reality. (The attempt to hopelessly entangle ontology with epistemology, fails.)

In that context, we can immediately see that causes create effects, which may come in degrees. How much sugar is in a glass of water affects how sweet it will taste. This has immediate applications, e.g. here is a video screenshot I recently shared with policy influencers, i/l/o issues on Ivermectin — and note, this is not to excite a side-debate. (Yes, I am aware of the report of a study on Ivermectin, but frankly fear it can be twisted into a kill-shot attempt given the toxic, ideological and interests distorted state of such research.) Note, Peru is a state with about 33 million people in 25 states, comparable to Canada at 36 millions:

It is in that context (with other similar real-world, observational study/experience driven results/evidence) that the Frontline Doctors have just challenged Officialdom on Ivermectin:

Underlying, given intent to address roots of reality, is the logic of being . . . which we can know based on analysis:

Compare, a flame:

An igniting match (a contingent being)

. . . with the fire tetrahedron, which gives causal conditionality:

Fires are contingent, possible beings, even as square circles are impossible of being:

One and the same object cannot be circular and square in the same sense and place at the same time

So, now, we can contemplate another order of possible being. To see it, try to imagine a distinct world in which two-ness, distinct identity etc do not exist. Or where it begins or may cease. Immediately, such fails as a distinct world W must differ from its neighbour W’ by having some A not in W’, in effect W = {A|~A} where ~A = W’. We see that two-ness is part of the framework for any world, so once there undeniably is a world [ours] it is a necessary being, part of the fabric of any world. That applies to mathematics and its universal power, but it shows that necessary, world framework entities are real.

The root of reality, world zero, W0, in effect, embeds such beings with the additional point that through origins processes such must account causally for this world, We.

This brings to bear issues on fine tuning evidence, the complex, functionally specific, algorithm, code and language using framework of cell based life, body plan biodiversity requiring 10 – 100+ million bits of incremental information per plan, and our own morally governed, minded life.

Those questions and many more are not going to go away quietly simply because they are inconvenient to today’s establishment. END

Comments
Jack, days ago, you were given a specific, detailed answer, which you have obviously not read. KFkairosfocus
July 16, 2021
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PS: As a reminder:
DISCOURSES CHAPTER XXV How is logic necessary? When someone in [Epictetus'] audience said, Convince me that logic is necessary, he answered: Do you wish me to demonstrate this to you?—Yes.—Well, then, must I use a demonstrative argument?—And when the questioner had agreed to that, Epictetus asked him. How, then, will you know if I impose upon you?—As the man had no answer to give, Epictetus said: Do you see how you yourself admit that all this instruction is necessary, if, without it, you cannot so much as know whether it is necessary or not? [Notice, inescapable, thus self evidently true and antecedent to the inferential reasoning that provides deductive proofs and frameworks, including axiomatic systems and propositional calculus etc. Cf J. C. Wright]
kairosfocus
July 16, 2021
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WJM & Jack, I would take the webs of argument you spin on and on more seriously if it first was not so directly manifest that your objections appeal to what you try to deny, the first duties of reason. Next, Cicero summarises the received view, using words that challenge us to ponder, e.g. why we experience conscience, find prudence speaking, find justice such a challenge and more. As is readily apparent, I cited him as a triggering source, not as an authority in his own right from his own resources. The key point is to acknowledge the readily observable pattern of pervasive first principles: inescapability, much as Epictetus shows, and BTW his excerpt is not just bare bones logic, it points to why we need warrant and antecedent first principles from which warrant (including deductive proofs) will be built. All of that is there, open for those willing to follow. KFkairosfocus
July 16, 2021
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KF: WJM, Jack: and yet, the appeals to first duties of reason are clearly repeatedly present in your arguments. Reason and logic are tools, not duties, in the service of my will's agenda. I don't "appeal" to the tools in my toolbox. I use them. They are my servants not my masters. It's what I have to work with to fulfill my will. When a man builds a house with hammer, he does not "appeal" to the hammer by some "sense of duty". He uses a tool in the service of his will's objective. BTW, I'm still waiting for the answer to my question: How does WJM’s experiences with his “deceased” wife fit into your ontology/epistemology?Jack
July 16, 2021
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As far as KF's warnings about "self-referential absurdity," ... even if that was logically applicable to my situation, why should I care about it when my perspective is mind-blowingly successful? Yes, I can argue that it is not self-referential, or argue that all worldviews are, ultimately, self-referential (because all we have is our experience to work with,) but even if it were, so what? Even if my theory could be disproved via evidence and argument, so what? It still works in my life. And that's really what this is about, IMO; your belief system works for you in your life, mine works for me in my life, SB's works for him, Seversky's works for him, BA77's works for him. Newtonian physics works. Common sense works. Quantum physics works. Uncommon sense works. Our individual beliefs and practices provide each of us practical, day to day value we will not be pried from regardless of evidence or argument to the contrary. :)William J Murray
July 16, 2021
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I have almost 60 years of ongoing experience in my life that clearly indicate to me that the common "external physical reality" worldview model is in error. I'm not denying it is very useful, but then, so is Newtonian physics. Lots of models are very useful; that doesn't mean they represent the truth about what is actually going on. As it turns out,, there is an enormous amount of research in many different fields that also undermine the idea that we live in a solid-state, innate characteristic external material or physical "world." Most prominent among these fields of research is quantum physics, which has clearly demonstrated fundamental existential errors of assumption in that old model. I've experienced a lifetime of things that are inexplicable (other than to dismiss them) wrt the common sense model of common experience. I've experimented with uncommon interpretations/models successfully over the course of many decades of effort. There are entire communities of people who have done the same. The "common sense realism" argument has no teeth in the face of those who have experienced these kinds of things consistently. I'm not about to dismiss decades of experience, research, experimentation, and overwhelming experiential success, verified and corroborated by hundreds of others, supported by quantum physics experimentation, just because it doesn't fit into KF's, or Cicero's, or Reid's ontological/epistemological framework.William J Murray
July 16, 2021
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KF said:
Yes we may dream, yes, we may have visions, yes we may hallucinate, we may be in locally misleading environments,
As predicted, contradictory experience is dismissed as defective or deceptive in order to preserve the worldview. Sorry, you don't get to define the parameters of what kind of experiences are up for discussion when debating ontologies. You don't get to preclude my uncommon experiences or those of countless others from inclusion in the ontological debate by conveniently dismissing them as misleading, visions, or hallucinations.
but it is clear that Plantinga is right, we need to recognise our basic apparatus as generally successfully aimed at and equipped for truth.
As you repeatedly point out, error occurs and error exists. The materialist/physicalist worldview, although it functionally works well in most situations, has been shown to be an error by the evidence, or at least an incomplete model with erroneous assumptions. As far as being capable of discerning "truth," that's a rather vague statement. Truth about what? IMO, the first order of any attempt to "discern truth" is by understanding what it is we are making true statements about. KF, you cannot make true statements about my experience. You cannot make true statements about anyone's experience except your own. The only thing anyone can hope to make true statements about is their own experience, which can include the individual experience of that which is experientially unavoidable for all sentient beings. When you move beyond existential unavoidables and assert what I know, why I'm doing what I'm doing, my reasons, and make the claim that your point of view is "manifestly apparent" to all observers, make claims about "common experience," you are mistaking your personal experience for universal truths and universal commodities. It is an error on your part; you have no idea, outside of existential unavoidables, what truth statements apply to my experience. You cannot possibly know, as a truth, that i have or experience "first duties," because duties are not existentially unavoidable. All you can do is interpret my behaviors according to your particular beliefs and reject it when I tell you I do not experience any such duties. You do not know that I have duties or behave the way I do because of duties. It may be that I do, but you cannot know this as a truth. So, when you claim it to be "manifestly true," you are in error. You don't get to make truth claims about my experience outside of existential and experiential unavoidables.William J Murray
July 16, 2021
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Jack @243, I try not to address motivations, but it's not like that motivation is a big secret around here, for KF and others. I'm not sure that sort of motivation is fundamentally any different from anyone having a worldview perspective they fully embrace as universal, inescapable reality. They all seem uninterested in other worldviews, except in how they can show them to be false. The religious aspect you mention apparently comes into play in certain areas, such as KF's whole "first duties" and "morality" argument, which he attempts to embed with existential inescapables. By that I mean, in KF's ontology, these things are, as you say, infused into all people by God; therefore, KF is fully committed to the perspective that I know what he is talking about, and that I recognize the "truth" of his claims; that's when he starts negatively characterizing me, assigning me negative motivations and painting my statements in a negative light. The honest fact is, I have no idea what he is talking about. It makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever when he says that I am "appealing to first duties." I have no idea how he thinks Cicero made this case; from my reading, Cicero and others just flat-out assume we have duties. It makes no sense to me when KF says it, and it makes no sense to me when Cicero says it. I have no idea what they are referring to. To me, it seems blazingly, glaringly, logically obvious that a real, actual duty requires the conditions of (1) some kind of supervising authority, and (2) consequences wrt the fulfillment of (or lack thereof) the duty. How can I possibly be willfully, consciously acting in accordance with (or in defiance of,) or appealing to, some duty I don't even know exists? Who or what is holding me accountable for doing my duty? What are the consequences? How can anyone rationally claim a duty exists when they do not even attempt to point out the conditions that are required for something to be identified as a duty? Is KF talking about a naturally assumed expectance that others will interact as rationally as they are capable? Is he talking about an expectation on my part that he will accede to a rationally sound conclusion? Well, I don't really expect that he or anyone here will. I expect that people will believe whatever they choose to believe, and I expect rational arguments and facts to make absolutely no difference whatsoever. But, expectations and assumptions about how other people will behave do not reveal actual duties; only showing the necessary conditions reveal an actual duty. A "sense of duty" is not an actual duty; actual duties require the actual conditions, which have not only been left out of the conversation, they are studiously avoided. The whole "duty" and "morality" aspects of KF's argument, even when Cicero was making it, fundamentally requires that other people just agree that we have such duties in the first place. It's like the moral question about torturing babies; the argument depends on people just agreeing that it is "wrong" to do that, regardless of culture and regardless of what world one is in. People accept that terminology unaware that those terms conceptually lock the debate into KF's ontological perspective. Those terms, when used and accepted as universal, refer to ontological concepts and exist within and are derived from a particular ontology. IOW, by accepting those terms as applicable, you've already committed yourself (usually unwittingly) to KF's ontological perspective. KF's entire argument falls apart once one challenges these premises, and that's when KF et al start the mind-reading, character assassination, painting themselves as victims, make comments about the motivations and reasons of others. Apparently, they cannot conceive that any honest, intelligent, rational person could possibly challenge or not accept those premises. Without them, they have no argument other than to cast aspersions and warn of dire outcomes. KF makes a good argument from common interpretations of common experience, or what he and Reid refer to as "common sense realism," but that argument fails once one challenges the premises upon which it is built. That perspective is, IMO, analogous to classical physics, which work really well in most situations, but are inapplicable to the pursuit, understanding, and technological development that requires an uncommon interpretation of uncommon experiences, such as the results of 100 years of quantum experimentation. The bulk of our economy in the US now relies on quantum technology derived from this research. This represents the problem that KF/Reid's "common sense realism" has when facing uncommon experience: it fails. It's like trying to apply Newtonian physics as the interpretive model when conducting quantum research or interpreting the results; it just doesn't fit. It is not useful. KF's epistemological structure depends on Reid's common sense realism. There's nothing wrong with that; I'm sure it works well for him and countless others. However, it is not a good model for many people who have these uncommon experiences that defy explanation via "common sense realism." This is why the movement has begun to various forms of idealism, consciousness or informational reality theories, even by some of the scientific community; to better explain and model the massive amount of evidence and experience that is "uncommon" and doesn't fit the "common sense interpretation of common experience" model KF espouses.William J Murray
July 16, 2021
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WJM, BTW, if you expect or hope that others will do duty, that does not change the nature of the duty or the pervasiveness of the force of appeal embedded in our discussion as rational, responsible, significantly free creatures. The duty is manifest, just consider the course of intensified argument, i.e. quarrelling. What has been called the law of fair play. Turn down the volume and the same is still there. Beyond, it is fairly obvious for a finite, fallible, error-prone, too often closed-minded creature, that the manifest end of reason is to better approach the truth, so that the wrenching of intelligence out of course into a means of deliberate, deceitful, dishonest manipulation and exploitation is a clear evil, and that simple failure is the lesser evil of fallibility. Unfortunately, this leads to the point that perception can be warped or coloured, reinforcing error. So, we clearly do need first pervasive principles of validity, soundness and adequacy of support as well as a sense that draws us to such means and their proper ends, truth, right reason, prudence, fair-mindedness etc. And it is not like these commonplace, common sense points are that hard to see, any more than the commonplace, common sense point that if we cannot take the first deliveries of consciousness as credible -- that we are embodied, self aware creatures in a common, physical world with macroscopic features as are so familiar -- then we have radically undermined the credibility of the self aware mindedness and senses that give us these first facts. Yes we may dream, yes, we may have visions, yes we may hallucinate, we may be in locally misleading environments, but it is clear that Plantinga is right, we need to recognise our basic apparatus as generally successfully aimed at and equipped for truth. The alternative is a manifestly absurd cascade of Plato's Cave grand delusions due to self-referential discredit of our rationality. Including, your own. Such nihilism of the mind is absurd. Instead, it is unsurprising that we can recognise pervasive first truths/facts, first principles, first duties given the evident end of intelligence, rational responsibility and associated freedom that takes us beyond the GIGO-bounds of computational substrates driven by mechanical organisation, cause-effect chains and stochastic processes etc. KFkairosfocus
July 16, 2021
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Jack, Let me do a little bit of clip-comment, just for record; even though this is likely to be something that will not move you a micron: >>WJM: KF, is that you appear to believe you can read my mind.>> 1: Appeal to truth and right reason as well as fairness by trying to project to me the opposite . . . obviously without warrant on WJM's part. >> How can I possibly be appealing to a duty if I don’t even know said duties exist?>> 2: WJM full well knows that first principles are pervasive so inescapable, even as he tries to suggest he is not appealing to what he appeals to to try to gain rhetorical traction. >>That doesn’t even make any sense.>> 3: Doubling down on said appeals and attempted denials. >> {Jack:] I’ll take a stab at his motivation: Romans 2:14+-.>> 4: Attempt to motive-monger by mind-reading projection! Also, managing to be an appeal to truth. 5: As a matter of fact, Paul endorses that we are enconscienced, rational creatures exhibiting a built-in law of our nature, likely reflecting direct or indirect familiarity with the sort of thinking found in Cicero et al, as I have noted. 6: Of course, from outset, consistently, I have pointed out that due to pervasiveness of first principles -- often, using Epictetus as a chief case in point on logic -- even objectors find themselves unable to evade appealing to said duties to truth, right reason, warrant and wider prudence etc. 7: I have consistently made that direct, readily observed point. You of course are inadvertently showing it in action yet again. >> His religious convictions>> 8: This is now getting into ad hominem territory, constructing a loaded strawman caricature when for months the very direct matter has been on the table. >>implore him to think that people in general have a morality>> 9: Do you notice the back-door sneaking in of an insinuation of deceit and/or incompetence to reason rightly on my part? Particularly, in the teeth of the very direct point actually on the table? >> that KF’s god>> 10: A world of import lies in refusal to acknowledge that God is capitalised. Do you want me to infer from that world of evidence, pretty good reason as to why you will be found arguing as you have? 11: And that in the face of a pretty direct matter of simple observation: we expect people to acknowledge truth, right reason, adequate warrant, prudence, and much more -- that is a manifest commonplace fact that is now manifestly being denied because of where it might lead, and because you think you can play at gaslighting. >> infused into everyone.>> 12: This is a candidate worldview level best explanation, but we are nowhere near that, the issues on the table have to do with establishing a common sense approach to rationality that starts with being willing to acknowledge the massive, consistent evidence of our senses that we are embodied creatures in a going concern, common world, with rational, responsible freedom. If I have a fear here, it is that we may tumble into absurdities of grand, Plato's Cave delusion and undermine the rationality that will help us dig out of such a cave. 13: It so happens that we see among self evident, self-supporting first truths, first principles of reason, first facts of consciousness, first duties, alongside things like two-ness that opens up the world of numbers. Each is undeniable on pain of immediate, patent absurdity, each is pervasive, manifest through countless examples. First, inescapable truths are self-evident. To reject them lands directly in manifest absurdity. Here, appealing to what one objects to. >>Should live by it, and will be judged by it.>> 14: The strawman caricature is now turned into a shadow show pretending to be truth. Stop the play, the matter is blatant and to implicitly appeal to truth yet again while trying to deny its force as a first duty simply shows the point you object to. >> And therefore is even “obvious” to guys like Cicero the pagan Eleusis initiate. >> 15: I have actually told how I came to the recognition that Cicero put his finger on something profound. That you prefer to spin a strawman myth to replace the plain truth of testimony [which even has traces of various stages in things published at UD and elsewhere] speaks volumes. 16: The plain truth is, Cicero's summary that received wisdom in his day held that moral prudence is a law, that conscience is a law etc, provoked my thought on his natural law framework. Which, manifestly, has been a dominant school of thought on law for thousands of years. 17: A school of thought that BTW makes far better sense than the notion that law is whatever those who control the legal presses decide to issue. (If you don't see the implicit nihilism in that you are not thinking soundly given pretty bloody living memory history.) >>Entertaining to say the least.>> 18: That you imagine setting up and knocking over slanderous strawman caricatures -- we can read the right wing fundy christofascist would be theocrat subtext thank you -- is entertainment, that speaks volumes. Sad volumes. 19: Meanwhile, both of you have yet again showed the fairly obvious truth of the direct point. KFkairosfocus
July 15, 2021
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WJM, the facts have come out again and again, even in your latest denial attempt you appeal to duties to truth, right reason etc. At this point the issue becomes, why the stout resistance to acknowledging the manifest. That raises interesting onward questions but it remains that the pervasiveness of first principles is manifestly on the table. We simply acknowledge that even through months of attempted counter arguments, dismissals and distractions, that has consistently been so and it has been pointed out again and again. It is time to draw the conclusion that many cases obtain where even manifest but unpalatable facts are stoutly denied. KFkairosfocus
July 15, 2021
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WJM: KF, is that you appear to believe you can read my mind. How can I possibly be appealing to a duty if I don’t even know said duties exist? That doesn’t even make any sense. I'll take a stab at his motivation: Romans 2:14+-. His religious convictions implore him to think that people in general have a morality that KF's god infused into everyone. Should live by it, and will be judged by it. And therefore is even "obvious" to guys like Cicero the pagan Eleusis initiate. Entertaining to say the least. Good luck with all that. The thing about KF is that he's just not upfront and honest in his motivations. He's a fundamentalist Christian who thinks the world is going to hell in a handbasket and wants us to see this and go along with his views. What he really wants is to make Christians out of everyone. Why he doesn't just say this short and sweet is interesting (and entertaining) to say the least. I could be wrong. And I don't like to mind read. But, dollars to donuts. Nothing "wrong" with trying to make Christians out of people, if that's your thing. But being deceptive is a bit of a contradiction. (Not that I care. Do what you want, KF. Be as hypocritical and contradictory as you want. Entertaining.)Jack
July 15, 2021
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I would think that maybe KF is just using the word "duty" instead of "expectations" or "hope," but he keeps insisting it has more value than that. I mean, I expect some people to interact rationally, or at least try to do so. I hope everyone will. I don't expect that everyone will. But I certainly do not hold that anyone has a "duty" to do so, and I'm certainly not aware of any such duties. How then can KF possibly "know" that I'm appealing to a duty, when what I say and how I say it can also indicate hopes, expectations and commonly used phrases and terms in such discussions? Wouldn't KF have to actually ask me why I'm using the words I use, and why I say what I say and how I say it, in order to know why? Yet, without even asking, and even after I've told him otherwise, he keeps insisting on his interpretation of what my words mean even though I've corrected him for months now.William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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KF: "Jack: and yet, the appeals to first duties of reason are clearly repeatedly present in your arguments." I have logic, reason, and desire , (fear of punishment is part of that desire.) Beyond that, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sidebar: if Cicero were sitting here next to me here in my office, I would be wildly interested in what he experienced in Eleusis. Probably something you would consider to be "demonic."Jack
July 15, 2021
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It appears to me that the main problem in my discussion with you, KF, is that you appear to believe you can read my mind. How can I possibly be appealing to a duty if I don't even know said duties exist? That doesn't even make any sense.William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, Jack: and yet, the appeals to first duties of reason are clearly repeatedly present in your arguments.
Your inference is not my implication.
One thing is clear, is that the actual fact of such appeals despite ever so many attempted denials,
There is no "actual fact" of an appeal to any "duty." No duties have been made apparent to me by showing me the existing conditions by which the duty can be recognized as such. I would have to know those conditions, and know a duty was in effect, to be appealing to any duty. I cannot be said to be appealing to someone's duty by chance; I can only appeal to duties I know are in effect. I don't know that any duties are in effect on any of us. Until you demonstrate the conditions that provide for any duty, you have not established that actual duties exist. Duties cannot be self-evident.
shows pervasive first principle status in action. Which directly means, self-evident.
Nobody is dying the first principle of logic and appeals to truth in order to make conversation. You are again trying to embed a non-necessary duty with a logical necessity.William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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Kairosfocus WJM, Jack: and yet, the appeals to first duties of reason are clearly repeatedly present in your arguments.
Yes Kairosfocus you are right and your opponents prove you right again and again with their own actions . All the people act on duty in the same way except their duty is to a different "truth". Unfortunatelly for them there are no more than one truth. This Universe has only ONE reality , was made in only ONE way and we cannot access that truth(all scientific opinions have no certitude ,are only speculations because all contain at least one UNPROVABLE premise) with our mind unless Who made it tells us.Lieutenant Commander Data
July 15, 2021
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WJM, Jack: and yet, the appeals to first duties of reason are clearly repeatedly present in your arguments. One thing is clear, is that the actual fact of such appeals despite ever so many attempted denials, shows pervasive first principle status in action. Which directly means, self-evident. That was so months ago when I simply noted the point as part of highlighting roots of our built-in law governed nature and after months of every sort of attempt to dismiss it remains the case. Surely, for cause, people will not find the untruthful, irrational, unwarranted, imprudent and unfair less than credible and lacking in probative value. That is a basic point of wisdom. But, it is equally clear that today, many find the concept that they are accountable before such basic duties of reason as truthfulness, reasoning rightly, providing warrant and being fair, utterly distasteful. That speaks, saddeningly but tellingly. KFkairosfocus
July 15, 2021
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Sandy: "So you admitt [sic] your life is a mess…" ...because I participate in these threads for entertainment? I can't imagine anyone commenting here for any other reason. But I could be wrong about that. At any rate, I'm feeling an intense "duty" to go mow my lawn. Ciao for now.Jack
July 15, 2021
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If you deceive yourself repeatedly, you’ll mess up your identity. You mess the neurology…it no longer produces outputs that map well to the world… your interests start to become pathologized.
Yep God didn't give us the 10 Commandments because He likes to ...command but because we will become mentally challenged after repeating those sins ...knowing that are sins.
I participate in your threads for entertainment.
:) So you admitt your life is a mess...Sandy
July 15, 2021
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KF: "Jack, do you not notice, how you imply that I ought not to be wrong on claimed facts" I have no felt "duty" to correct you, nor care if you are wrong or not about the nonsense you spew. I participate in your threads for entertainment. "duty to truth — and then too on straightening out reasoning — duty to right reason? [That goes far beyond mere desires]" See previous post. "As for the implications of mere appeal to the stick, that subtly suggests the requirement of justice vs mere imposition of force to demand conformity." I see no evidence of that except for emotional instinct, that is, the way humans happen to be programmed in varying ways and degrees that can push them around despite logic and reasoning. Humans generally have a "sense of fairness" and all that, but so what? There is no absolute criterion of "fairness" that one can point to, and usually "fairness" means selfishness in the pretense of appeal to some non-existent objective standard. "That's not fair!" usually means, "what you're doing is negatively affecting me and I don't like it!" Lions have a sense to kill and eat baby gazelles. Is it "fair?" Is capitalism fair? Socialism? Depends on who you ask. It's not about ultimate right or wrong, good or "evil". Each entity has its programmed nature and will play it out. Humans and lions alike. Nothing that you argue establishes that humans are any different in this regard. You duty talk appears to me as nothing more than, "the world is falling apart and I don't like it and I want you agree with me!" ("Fairness" can have an objective meaning when the participants agree to whatever the standard is. Such as in law, contracts, religion, or playing games.)Jack
July 15, 2021
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Telling the truth
. A clip from my podcast appearance with exploring the idea of why telling the truth is so important If you deceive yourself repeatedly, you’ll mess up your identity. You mess the neurology…it no longer produces outputs that map well to the world… your interests start to become pathologized. Jordan Peterson
https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1415024397925093378 Of course the Jordan Peterson haters then start making inane objections.jerry
July 15, 2021
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KF: "LCD (& Jack), the basic knowledge challenge is universal" I don't know what this means. "we find ourselves as self-aware creatures in a going concern world." My only going concern is my health, and ability to pay my bills and have a bit of fun now and again. "We intuitively recognise key pervasive patterns and may acknowledge their force. " So what? "For example, being appeared to redly and roundly by a certain red ball A on a flat topped Fustic wood table B, in a house etc in our going concern world. From that we may note distinct identity etc. " I have no idea what you're trying to say here. "When it comes to equally pervasive first duties, we can note especially from intensified arguments, i.e. quarrels. For such, it is readily seen that we expect others to acknowledge binding principles, and this is a practical consensus. " I quarrel or persuade when I want my will to be done contra someone else's will that goes against my interests. I am not at all interested in "fairness" in such situations, if that's what you're trying to imply. Other than that, I leave people alone. "Epictetus showed how pervasive such core logic is, by the case of one who challenged him to show that logic was necessary: you need core logic for that" Humans have a nature (instinctual programming) of varying values that push them to act in certain, highly predictable ways. So what? My will (the thing that makes choices) doesn't have a "duty" to obey any such impulses. I frequently ignore them and go to bed and sleep like a baby. "it is an antecedent of reasoned demonstration. What becomes interesting is to observe the behaviour of those who object to Ciceronian first duties:" I don't object to them as much as deny they exist. If Cicero was pounding the pulpit in my presence, I'd yawn and go get a beer. "invariably, their objections implicitly appeal to said duties as binding." It's not about objecting. I generally don't care about things that don't exist. "That is, we are looking at pervasive antecedents of responsible reason." Responsibility is subjective. Whatever you seem to have in mind, as far as I can tell, doesn't exist for me. "Our challenge is to be willing to acknowledge and to be consistent with what we bind on others, seeing its force for ourselves." I don't feel at all challenged by any of this mythical "duty" talk or any other non-existent things. Whatever you have in mind, I'm not feeling it, bro. "And no it’s not an appeal to the stick argument, nor an appeal to the carrot argument." It's the only thing that exists for me along the lines you apparently have in mind. The rest of it is drawing a blank stare of apathy. "If anything, we are looking at a framing of wisdom as bringing to bear duties of good sense to reasoning." Whatever that is. If that works for ya, keep on doing it.Jack
July 15, 2021
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WJM, just one snippet:
Mutual expectations do not reveal or make an actual duty.
H'mm, do you not see that here you assert a truth claim and expect a duty to it (on grounds of its truth as you think you have), which would obtain regardless of inter-subjective agreement or of my sensing a desire towards it? In short, the inescapable pervasiveness of first principles is again manifest. our problem is to acknowledge such. KFkairosfocus
July 15, 2021
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Jack, do you not notice, how you imply that I ought not to be wrong on claimed facts -- duty to truth -- and then too on straightening out reasoning -- duty to right reason? [That goes far beyond mere desires, which -- while they often do point to the right -- can often be found in a clash, or may be dulled.] As for the implications of mere appeal to the stick, that subtly suggests the requirement of justice vs mere imposition of force to demand conformity. KF PS: A power cut has intervened, which may run for hours I am told.kairosfocus
July 15, 2021
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So, to summarize: 1. Mutual expectations do not reveal or make an actual duty. An actual duty only exists in certain conditions: a supervising authority of some sort, and consequences. You don't get to claim "first duties" exist by embedding them with existentially unavoidable logic behaviors or by conflating them with common expectations. 2. Objective or universal morality can similarly only exist in the presence of certain conditions. You don't get to assert it by fiat or by pointing at "common" human emotions and reactions. You must reveal or argue for the conditions, which you have not done. 3. Your "common sense interpretations of common human experiences" perspective only survives ontologically by excluding "uncommon" experiences that are widespread and widely reported around the world, throughout history; when your ontology accepts them, it is only the tiny subset that support your perspective. Uncommon, or paranormal experiences, have been scientifically investigated for hundreds of years, and some (or perhaps much) of it scientifically verified as actual and factual. These things can no longer be simply dismissed from the pool of things that should be considering a properly inclusive O/E model. You don't get your "common experience" for free with the exclusive limitations that provide only for the support of your model. 4. Your concept of "the world" and our "embodied" existence in it (our body being a part of "the world") has been scientifically disproved by repeated quantum physics research over the past hundred years or so. Our "common interpretation" of "common experience" has been demonstrated to be factually in error.William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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KF's "common experience, common sense" ontology/epistemology can be compared to Newtonian physics or General Relativity in that they are a good, functional way to think about things and operate when it comes to what he calls "common experiences." However, there is a different set of experiences that many humans experience that are not "common," and Newtonian physics/General Relativity are not good ways of thinking about those experiences. They are not describable in terms of "common sense" because common sense does not address those experiences other than to discredit or dismiss them as either defective or deceptive. One might view those experiences, and the kind of thinking that must be used to address them and understand them, as a kind of quantum physics. It would be one thing if I was the only person on the planet having these "uncommon" experiences, or if I and others only experienced them rarely. This is not the case. From my experience and information I have read, these are actually very common experiences that people generally just do not talk about for various reasons. Primarily, they do not wish to be ostracized considered "weird" or "damaged" or "deceptive." Thus, KF's "common experience and common sense" perspective is built upon a self-regulating subset of human experience that simply refuses undermining experiences and information in for consideration, but mainly because most people who have these experiences don't want to endure the ramifications of challenging that perspective. We might call those kinds of experiences "paranormal." Like quantum physics (and actually correlational to quantum physics,) paranormal experiences have been reported and investigated for hundreds of years. They have been the subject of much scientific scrutiny, but also widespread ridicule. KF's "common sense based on common experience" perspective isn't really what it seems; it's really more accurately described as "common sense based on a common interpretation of common experiences," which he describes as: being "embodied" in an external, going-concern world. Being "physically embodied in an external, going-concern world" is no more "our experience" than it is our experience in a dream: it is an interpretation of what the experience represents. It is not "the experience" itself; it is an ontological interpretation of what those experiences mean. The problem with this interpretation is that it entirely depends on excluding "uncommon" experience, much like scientists rejecting the results of quantum-physics experiments and working for a hundred years to try and salvage their old concept of "objective" or "local" reality. KF rejects (as do others here) any experience which undermines his ontology/epistemology. These "uncommon" experiences are common in my life, and in the lives of many, many others. These experiences (and the quantum physics research) clearly demonstrate, at least to me and many others, that "the world" is not what KF and others paint it out to be. Our experience is not about what we thought it was about. It has been clearly demonstrated to not be the case. So, arguing with me from the perspective of "common sense interpretation of common experiences" like trying to talk me into a classical view of physics after I've spent a lifetime in quantum research and I've personally witnessed and experienced the successful results of those experiments, and when many, many others have been directly experiencing quantum effects and results - the success of the quantum physics model, so to speak. I and others consistently experience the "paranormal" in ways that defy the "common sense interpretation of common experiences." Nothing you can say, KF, nor argument you render can change that fact. I experience things, and have experienced them throughout my life, and many, many others have as well, that are not reconcilable with your ontological perspective.William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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Anyway, the whole duty argument is nonsense from the get-go, absent KF or anyone else addressing the necessary conditions for their "first duties." MMY said:
WJM Let’s not get carried away in individuality. There should be a common basis. That common basis is the basic logic as it is in common discourse.
I've never said or argued otherwise. Logic is essential to all sentient experience. There is also a lot of common experience we can work with, but there is more than one rational way to interpret that common experience. I don't interpret those experiences the same way that KF does - or, to be fair, the way most people do.William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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KF said:
There is a proper expectation there, that something ought to be fulfilled,
An expectation on one person's part does not confer an actual duty onto anyone else to meet that expectation. It doesn't necessarily imply a duty. Duties only exist as duties if the conditions that make an expected behavior a duty exist in that particular situation.William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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KF said:
WJM, denial of the patent on your part (sadly, increasingly a pattern) does not constitute a wrong conclusion on mine.
My rejection of your particular O/E does not represent a denial of any actually "patent" matters, no matter how many times you assert it. I don't think I've ever said the conclusions of your O/E were wrong (given the premises,) only that I do not share those particular premises.
I have taken time to lay out the relevance of self-evidence, which you have tried to redefine, etc.
What I've done is reveal how some of the things you call SETs, which you require to be SETs to make your case, are not actually SETs. That is not "redefining" what a SET is.
I have also, for record, worked through Moore on embodiment in a going concern world and where his opposed philosophers [who were idealists it seems and/or skeptics] found themselves in self-referential incoherence and/or in logical contradiction, right there on the surface. KF
You don't get to substitute someone else's argument and perspective (whomever Moore was arguing with) for mine and the pretend like you've addressed my argument.
PS: Resort to sneak language (an insinuation of dishonesty)
I put "sneak" in scare quotes, because I didn't mean you were literally trying to sneak it in, so there was no insinuation of dishonesty. I'm sorry if that was not clear by my use of the scare quotes.
... is also an appeal to the first duties you clearly resent,
That's kind of a bizarre bit of mind-reading. First, you cannot possibly know what I am appealing to - your inference is not my implication; second, I can't think of anything I have any "resentment" for. I don't experience any duties, much less "resent" them, and you don't get to tell me what I'm experiencing or why I do the things I do or what I'm "appealing to" beyond what is existentially unavoidable. Inescapable appeals to truth by logical necessity do not represent a concomitant appeal to any supposed "duty" to tell the truth. Such duties can only be factually revealed by certain conditions - namely, a supervising authority of some sort and consequences for not doing one's duty, neither of which you have supplied wrt objective, universal first duties. Until you make an argument with me against my IRT, quoting anyone else's argument against anyone else's supposedly idealist perspective is as straw man. You aren't arguing against my IRT because you have never taken the time to understand it. The things you say about it, even as recently as this thread, clearly indicate you do not understand it. You don't understand half the things I say, and you imagine I say things I did not, or feel things I do not, as if you can read my mind. What has been going on is I've been challenging and criticizing your ontological/epistemological perspective because you keep repeating it over and over. You keep repeating the same answers to my objections as if they are actual responses to my objections; they are not. They are responses someone else made to someone else's objections. However, it seems you are incapable of understanding much of what I say, because, for about the 100th time, you yet again conflate my rejection of the assumption of a "duty" with a rejection of "core logic" itself. An expectation or desire that someone will debate according to logical principles does not represent a duty on anyone's part. Duties can only be known, be revealed, by the presence of certain conditions that make a duty a duty. period. Nothing you say can possibly change this fact. A "sense" of duty is not an actual duty. Your inference that others are acting out of an actual duty can only be your inference. The only way you can show me (or any rational person) that I'm acting "out of duty" is to show me the conditions of my duty - the supervising authority and the consequences. It appears you are as functionally incapable of understanding my objections to your O/E as much as you are incapable understanding my IRT (which is why you keep applying other people's responses to other people's challenges/objections, and then acting as if you've responded to my objection or my theory.)William J Murray
July 15, 2021
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