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Michael Shermer of Skeptic magazine vs. “turtles all the way down . . .”

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UD’s resident journalist, Mrs Denise O’Leary, notes on how Mr Michael Shermer of Skeptic Magazine and Scientific American (etc.) has written on his new book, The Believing Brain: Why Science Is the Only Way Out of Belief-Dependent Realism:

. . . skepticism is a sine qua non of science, the only escape we have from the belief-dependent realism trap created by our believing brains.

While critical awareness — as opposed to selective hyperskepticism — is indeed important for serious thought in science and other areas of life, Mr Shermer hereby reveals an unfortunate ignorance of basic epistemology, the logic of warrant and the way that faith and reason are inextricably intertwined in the roots of our worldviews.

To put it simply, he has a “turtles all the way down” problem:

"Turtles, all the way down . . . "

The image of course comes from the old story of the lady who told the scientist that the world rests on the back of a turtle. The scientist challenged her, and where does that turtle stand? On another one. And that one? “It’s turtles all the way down . . . ”

The same problem holds for warranting a given claim. As I noted in a comment in Mrs O’Leary’s thread (which Mr Arrington suggested be promoted to a full post):

Take any given claim of consequence A. Why accept it?

It has grounds of some sort B.

Why accept B?

C.

And so forth.

You will then have the choice of:

(i) infinite regress [“turtles all the way down . . . “],

(ii) a circle [“turtles in a loop . . . “] or

(iii) stopping at some set of first plausibles F that are accepted as that, plausible without further demonstration. [“The last turtle stands on something, hopefully something solid”].

The first two are absurd and fallacious in turn.

Since many such sets F are possible, the matter now turns to comparative difficulties on factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power across live options F1, F2, F3 etc.

Have a look here on.

But, every such set F, is a Faith-point. Faith and reason are inextricably intertwined in the roots of our worldviews.

This brings us to the real issue: not whether we live by faith — we must — but in what do we put our trust, why.

That is, we seek to have a reasonable faith.

We are thus forced to stop at some set of first plausibles or other — that is, a “faith-point” (yes, we ALL must live by some faith or another, given our finitude and fallibility) —  and then compare alternatives and see which is least difficult. (At this level, all sets of alternative first plausibles bristle with difficulties. Indeed, the fundamental, generic method of philosophy is therefore that of comparative difficulties.)

John Locke aptly summed up our dilemma in section 5 of his introduction to his famous essay on human understanding:

Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 – 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 – 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 – 2 & 13, Ac 17, Jn 3:19 – 21, Eph 4:17 – 24, Isaiah 5:18 & 20 – 21, Jer. 2:13Titus 2:11 – 14 etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 – 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly. [Emphases added. Text references also added, to document the sources of Locke’s biblical allusions and citations.]

So, we must make the best of the candle-light we have. At worldview choice level, a good way to do that is to look at three major comparative difficulties tests:

(1) factual adequacy relative to what we credibly know about the world and ourselves,

(2) coherence, by which the pieces of our worldview must fit together logically and work together harmoniously,

(3) explanatory relevance and simplicity: our view needs to explain reality (including our experience of ourselves in our common world) elegantly, simply and powerfully, being neither simplistic nor a patchwork where we are forever adding after-the-fact patches to fix  leak after leak.

Two key components of this process of comparative difficulties in pursuit of a worldview that is a reasonable faith, are: (i) first principles of right reason, and (ii) warranted, credible truths.

And, when it comes to matters of fact, our challenge is aptly summed up by founder of the modern theory of evidence, Simon Greenleaf, in his famouse treatise on Evidence:

The word Evidence, in legal acceptation, includes all the means by which any alleged matter of fact, the truth of which is submitted to investigation, is established or disproved . . . .

None but mathematical truth is susceptible of that high degree of evidence, called demonstration, which excludes all possibility of error [Greenleaf was almost a century before Godel] , and which, therefore, may reasonably be required in support of every mathematical deduction. Matters of fact are proved by moral evidence alone ; by which is meant, not only that kind of evidence which is employed on subjects connected with moral conduct, but all the evidence which is not obtained either from intuition, or from demonstration.

In the ordinary affairs of life, we do not require demonstrative evidence, because it is not consistent with the nature of the subject, and to insist upon it would be unreasonable and absurd. The most that can be affirmed of such things, is, that there is no reasonable doubt concerning them. The true question, therefore, in trials of fact, is not whether it is possible that the testimony may be false, but, whether there is sufficient probability of its truth; that is, whether the facts are shown by competent and satisfactory evidence. Things established by competent and satisfactory evidence are said to he proved . . . .

By competent evidence, is meant that which the very-nature of the thing to be proved requires, as the fit and appropriate proof in the particular case, such as the production of a writing, where its contents are the subject of inquiry. By satisfactory evidence, which is sometimes called sufficient evidence, is intended that amount of proof, which ordinarily satisfies an unprejudiced mind, beyond reasonable doubt. The circumstances which will amount to this degree of proof can never be previously defined; the only legal test of which they are susceptible, is their sufficiency to satisfy the mind and conscience of a common man ; and so to convince him, that he would venture to act upon that conviction, in matters of the highest joncern and importance to his own interest . . . .

Even of mathematical truths, [Gambler, in The Study of Moral Evidence] justly remarks, that, though capable of demonstration, they are admitted by most men solely on the moral evidence of general notoriety. For most men are neither able themselves to understand mathematical demonstrations, nor have they, ordinarily, for their truth, the testimony of those who do understand them; but finding them generally believed in the world, they also believe them. Their belief is afterwards confirmed by experience; for whenever there is occasion to apply them, they are found to lead to just conclusions. [A Treatise on the Law of Evidence, 11th edn, 1868 [?], vol 1 Ch 1 , pp. 45 – 46.]

So the key challenge is that one must have a reasonable and responsible consistency in standards of warrant on important matters of fact or matters rooted in facts.

We thus see the standard of reasonable and consistent, albeit provisional warrant that appears in all sorts of serious contexts such as the courtroom, history, science [especially origins sciences], and many matters of affairs.

Mr Shermer needs to do some fairly serious rethinking on the relationship between faith and reason. END

Comments
While continuing the courtroom theme suggested by the original post, I think it is fair to point out that when evaluating evidence, there is a particular kind of evidence that is considered particularly strong. And that would be evidence that is entailed or predicted by a particular hypothesis of what happened. That is why evolution advocates place such emphasis on finding particular kinds of fossils in particular strata. In cases where much of the evidence has been lost or destroyed, it is particularly important that scraps of evidence be consistent with the story being presented. In biology there are other kinds of entailments, the most powerful of which is the necessity that genomes fit a nested pattern of descent. Predicting the finding of extremely odd bits of evidence in unusual locations is particularly powerful in court cases.Petrushka
September 16, 2011
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I think a more properly worded analogy is, why does the detective think that an intentional event occurred at all, when everyone else is satisfied with the answers "it was just a happenstance occurrence" or "nothing caused it" and what necessary grounding (assumptions based on extrapolations of observation & fact) gives support to any of those explanations? Also ... what philosophical grounding supports that the latter two are even explanations at all? Are "happenstance" (chance) and "nothing" really explanations in any meaningful sense?William J Murray
September 16, 2011
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Petrushka, man in limited and science is limited as well. ... I think that the biggest problem of today’s science is that it presumes upon a lot more than it can deliver.
Science is limited to questions that can be addressed by empirical research. It can't really deal with "ultimate" questions such as why is there something rather than nothing. But the issue at hand is a problem of forensics, and as the original post suggests, we are examining evidence as if in a courtroom. Evidence that supports a story about what happened. I don't think it is a coincidence that much of the arguing is being done by lawyers. Much of the debate centers on what kinds of evidence is most plausible. This thread is not asking anyone to render a verdict in the case. It is not asking anyone to decide between one story or another. That is done on other threads, but not this one. This thread is about what kinds of evidence should be collected to support the alternative stories. My opinion is, using the courtroom metaphor, is the evidence in forensic science needs to be of the same type and quality as that which is used in court. Repeating myself, it is reasonable on this thread for the ID side to claim that the evolution case is not proved. This particular discussion is not about what has already been proved, but about what kinds of evidence are acceptable in court.Petrushka
September 16, 2011
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Petrushka, What regularity is there in terms of the origin of the world or the emergence of life?Eugene S
September 16, 2011
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Hi, I guess, the bottom line of the argument is whether on not to include Intelligence in the set of valid scientific explanations, in addition to Neccessity and Chance. For one, I can see no reason why it should not be included. Such inclusion is traditionally attributed to Aristotle. I can only say that I agree with him on this point :) In my opinion, Necessity and/or Chance cannot parsimoniously and reliably explain what we see in all its depth. By far, the best example of how absurd "scientific" explanations can be is the idea of "multiverse" in an attempt to explain the anthropic principle or the fine-tuning of the basic constants of the world. The idea of "multiverse" to me is as scientific as the idea of a turtle supporting our world in the ocean of eternity, because it is both untestable and unfalsifiable. As to parsimony, I am happier with the idea of an Omniponent Designer, which (the idea) buries in itself all possible infinite regressions rather than with the idea of "matter out of matter" which does not really explain anything. BTW, Paul Davies discusses these issues in his "God of the 21st century". The materialistic position is just the inverse of the former religious axiom. But ethically it is less appealing because it makes us believe it is "scientific" :) Petrushka, man in limited and science is limited as well. And as a result, scientific questions may go unanswered for more than centuries, to say the least, depending on the questions :) I think that the biggest problem of today's science is that it presumes upon a lot more than it can deliver. The argument between Religion and Science is a meme. The more science knows the finer our picture becomes of how the two coexist.Eugene S
September 16, 2011
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Petrushka, You said: "Nor can you assert that a brain requires a programmer in order to learn." Why not? Practice and common sense lead me to believe in quite the opposite. I believe it would be fair to assert this by induction until further data is available to demonstrate the assertion to be wrong. Could you give a provable example of spontaneously self-organised code, bearing in mind the distinction between "self-ordering" (which is routinely observed in highly non-equilibrium systems) and "self-organisation" (which involves hierarchical formal relationships between system components)? I can refer you to this article here that discusses this issue. In case the link breaks, it's David Abel "The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity".Eugene S
September 16, 2011
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For Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy.
I'm wondering how you interpret this. It's generally regarded as excluding induction of causes not experimentally testable. When Laplace published his analysis of planetary orbits he specifically used this construction to mean he used no appeal to supernatural causes. He was addressing this to Newton's invocation of supernatural forces.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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Since the OP ends with an appeal to standards of evidence suitable for the courtroom, Id be curious to see what the onlookers would think, as members of the jury, to a defense attorney who pleads that the murder was the result of divine intervention. Is there any particular reason that isn't done? Are jurors just scientistic materialists, or do they draw on a lifetime of experience? Is this any different from science drawing on centuries of experience? Is it ever reasonable to give up hope of finding a human murderer? Those of you who read mystery stories might recall the popularity of the locked room murder, a genre that includes all kinds of impossible murders. Why is it that the detective hero always infers a human killer rather than a ghost or spirit, even when everyone else thinks that is the cause?Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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The only process we have observed modifying populations of living things is evolution, and we have large amounts of data on the power of directed evolution, or selective breeding. So we can estimate the effectiveness and time requirements of selecting changes in regulatory genes. Human breeding programs seldom select for more than a few traits at a time, whereas natural selection is net really limited in the number of dimensions it can "monitor" simultaneously.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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I've seen that. It has no bearing on what I said.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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Onlookers: I would really appreciate a response on the actual issues in the OP. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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Newton, General Scholium: >> . . . This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being. And if the fixed stars are the centres of other like systems, these, being formed by the like wise counsel, must be all subject to the dominion of One; especially since the light of the fixed stars is of the same nature with the light of the sun, and from every system light passes into all the other systems: and lest the systems of the fixed stars should, by their gravity, fall on each other mutually, he hath placed those systems at immense distances one from another. This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator , or Universal Ruler; for God is a relative word, and has a respect to servants; and Deity is the dominion of God not over his own body, as those imagine who fancy God to be the soul of the world, but over servants. The Supreme God is a Being eternal, infinite, absolutely perfect; but a being, however perfect, without dominion, cannot be said to be Lord God; for we say, my God, your God, the God of Israel, the God of Gods, and Lord of Lords; but we do not say, my Eternal, your Eternal, the Eternal of Israel, the Eternal of Gods; we do not say, my Infinite, or my Perfect: these are titles which have no respect to servants. The word God usually signifies Lord; but every lord is not a God. It is the dominion of a spiritual being which constitutes a God: a true, supreme, or imaginary dominion makes a true, supreme, or imaginary God. And from his true dominion it follows that the true God is a living, intelligent, and powerful Being; and, from his other perfections, that he is supreme, or most perfect. He is eternal and infinite, omnipotent and omniscient; that is, his duration reaches from eternity to eternity; his presence from infinity to infinity; he governs all things, and knows all things that are or can be done. He is not eternity or infinity, but eternal and infinite; he is not duration or space, but he endures and is present. He endures for ever, and is every where present; and by existing always and every where, he constitutes duration and space. Since every particle of space is always, and every indivisible moment of duration is every where, certainly the Maker and Lord of all things cannot be never and no where. Every soul that has perception is, though in different times and in different organs of sense and motion, still the same indivisible person. There are given successive parts in duration, co-existent puts in space, but neither the one nor the other in the person of a man, or his thinking principle; and much less can they be found in the thinking substance of God. Every man, so far as he is a thing that has perception, is one and the same man during his whole life, in all and each of his organs of sense. God is the same God, always and every where. He is omnipresent not virtually only, but also substantially; for virtue cannot subsist without substance. In him are all things contained and moved [i.e. cites Ac 17, where Paul evidently cites Cleanthes]; yet neither affects the other: God suffers nothing from the motion of bodies; bodies find no resistance from the omnipresence of God. It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [i.e accepts the cosmological argument to God.] Whence also he is all similar, all eye, all ear, all brain, all arm, all power to perceive, to understand, and to act; but in a manner not at all human, in a manner not at all corporeal, in a manner utterly unknown to us. As a blind man has no idea of colours, so have we no idea of the manner by which the all-wise God perceives and understands all things. He is utterly void of all body and bodily figure, and can therefore neither be seen, nor heard, or touched; nor ought he to be worshipped under the representation of any corporeal thing. [Cites Exod 20.] We have ideas of his attributes, but what the real substance of any thing is we know not. In bodies, we see only their figures and colours, we hear only the sounds, we touch only their outward surfaces, we smell only the smells, and taste the savours; but their inward substances are not to be known either by our senses, or by any reflex act of our minds: much less, then, have we any idea of the substance of God. We know him only by his most wise and excellent contrivances of things, and final cause [i.e from his designs]: we admire him for his perfections; but we reverence and adore him on account of his dominion: for we adore him as his servants; and a god without dominion, providence, and final causes, is nothing else but Fate and Nature. Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [i.e necessity does not produce contingency] All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [That is, implicitly rejects chance, Plato's third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.] But, by way of allegory, God is said to see, to speak, to laugh, to love, to hate, to desire, to give, to receive, to rejoice, to be angry, to fight, to frame, to work, to build; for all our notions of God are taken from. the ways of mankind by a certain similitude, which, though not perfect, has some likeness, however. And thus much concerning God; to discourse of whom from the appearances of things, does certainly belong to Natural Philosophy. >> Opticks Query 31: >> As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For Hypotheses are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving the Explanations. >> And: >> Now by the help of [[the laws of motion], all material Things seem to have been composed of the hard and solid Particles above-mention'd, variously associated in the first Creation by the Counsel of an intelligent Agent. For it became him who created them to set them in order. And if he did so, it's unphilosophical to seek for any other Origin of the World, or to pretend that it might arise out of a Chaos by the mere Laws of Nature; though being once form'd, it may continue by those Laws for many Ages . . . . And if natural Philosophy in all its Parts, by pursuing this Method, shall at length be perfected, the Bounds of Moral Philosophy will be also enlarged. For so far as we can know by natural Philosophy what is the first Cause, what Power he has over us, and what Benefits we receive from him, so far our Duty towards him, as well as that towards one another, will appear to us by the Light of Nature. ” >> These are what I am referring to int eh direct context of responding on the Lewontin citation of Beck. Kindly address them. In short, Beck is plainly wrong, at least as Lewontin cites him, and there is no good warrant to infer that theistic thinkers are incapable of scientific reasoning or contribution. Gotta go now.kairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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Petrushka [and onlookers], kindly read here, busy just now. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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Dr Liddle Pausing from other things for a moment. The issue is not whether you have specific events or pulses but how the pulses are processed. If they are continuous state, the matter is analogue. The inputs are in effect integrated or accumulated until a firing threshold is triggered, in the neuron. That, too is an analogue process, though with a saturation level that triggers response. The neuron is a more sophisticated gate than the digital ones we are used to, and it is not a mere amplifier manipulated by feedback networks either -- that is how mathematical operations are done in electronic analogue computers. Parallel and serial ports use discrete state events [voltage levels, etc], whether synchronous or asynchronous. Of course there is no general clock signal in the CNS, so that is asynchronous. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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...an institutionalised failure to appreciate that the key distinction relevant to our cases is that between nature and art rather than the natural and the supernatural...
1. There is no precedent in modern science for finding an artifact as complex as life for which we have a history rather than an inference. The artifacts we find are made by humans or animals or plants. In general, we are able to observe them being made. 2. There are instances in modern science, such as the one I cited from Newton, in which it has been claimed that natural explanations are impossible, and for which natural explanations have been found. The history of intervention inferences is mostly a history of the inference being disproved. 3. It is possible to look for regularity. It is impossible to look directly for for interventions without having some knowledge of the properties of the intervening agent. 4. Failure to explain is not a useful argument. Scientific problems have gone unsolved for centuries.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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Summing digital data over time is what's done by a digital to analog converter. Pulse code modulation.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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Well, an action potential is a discrete event, triggered when a value on a continuum (depolarisation) reaches a threshold. But the same is true of the pins of a parallel port, and we call those values binary. But I don't think it's a terribly important point. What is important is the summation of inputs over time.Elizabeth Liddle
September 15, 2011
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In your haste to dismiss a “supernatural” explanation...
I am in no haste to dismiss supernatural explanations. I am in agreement with you when you say supernatural phenomena must be discerned amidst a background of regularity and consistency. It is the prevalence of regularity that enables us to discern irregularities. Thus the search for intervention requires us to rule out regularity. I'm not convinced that arguments from pure mathematics can dissuade mainstream scientist from searching for regularities in biology. Even when the task is difficult or unlikely to be resolved in one's lifetime. There has never been a greater genius than Newton, and yet he seems to have given up the task prematurely.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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Dr Liddle: Do you have any evidence of stepwise variation in the signals in neuronal systems, where values between "adjacent" states are meaningless or impossible? if not you are moving along a continuum [like climbing up a rope by hanging on anywhere along its length], which is the key to an analogue system. So far as I am aware, there is a continuous response, just it is pulse-based. But analogue pulse mod systems -- pulse rate, pulse amplitude, and pulse time -- are quite common. (Or, used to be . . . ) Unless you have the sort of "rungs on a ladder effect" -- no valid values between "rungs" -- in action, you have some form of analogue pulse mod system; seems to me a blend of amplitude and repetition rate i.e. pulse rate, and it seems something like a log compression is in use to get high dynamic range out of a fairly small actual signal variation. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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Pulse mod systems are commonly analogue.kairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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Dr Bot: Unfortunately the above ad hominem has become par for your course here at UD, and has now reached the level of outright personal attack. I will not indulge the sort of exchange that would simply encourage more of the same. Nor, am I merely alleging an imaginary conspiracy [as you would use to try to dismiss the problem of a very real party-spirited agenda that has damaged science in our time, and not just Origins Science], as the recent spate of fines resulting from legal actions has demonstrated. If there were no problem of ideological materialist bias, you would not for instance see the US' National Science Teachers' Association trying to redefine science -- in the teeth of a lot of relevant history and issues, thusly:
The principal product of science is knowledge in the form of naturalistic concepts and the laws and theories related to those concepts . . . . [[S]cience, along with its methods, explanations and generalizations, must be the sole focus of instruction in science classes to the exclusion of all non-scientific or pseudoscientific methods, explanations, generalizations and products . . . . Although no single universal step-by-step scientific method captures the complexity of doing science, a number of shared values and perspectives characterize a scientific approach to understanding nature. Among these are a demand for naturalistic explanations supported by empirical evidence that are, at least in principle, testable against the natural world. Other shared elements include observations, rational argument, inference, skepticism, peer review and replicability of work . . . . Science, by definition, is limited to naturalistic methods and explanations and, as such, is precluded from using supernatural elements in the production of scientific knowledge. [[NSTA, Board of Directors, July 2000. Emphases added.]
Perhaps that is not sufficiently august. So, let us clip the US' National Academy of Science, in a similar vein:
In science, explanations must be based on naturally occurring phenomena. Natural causes are, in principle, reproducible and therefore can be checked independently by others. If explanations are based on purported forces that are outside of nature, scientists have no way of either confirming or disproving those explanations. Any scientific explanation has to be testable — there must be possible observational consequences that could support the idea but also ones that could refute it. Unless a proposed explanation is framed in a way that some observational evidence could potentially count against it, that explanation cannot be subjected to scientific testing. [[Science, Evolution and Creationism, 2008, p. 10 Emphases added.]
Both of these remarks, show an institutionalised failure to appreciate that the key distinction relevant to our cases is that between nature and art rather than the natural and the supernatural, and fail to appreciate that the artificial can and does leave reliable empirical signs that are amenable to study. In short, we see how methodological naturalism is exerting precisely the sort of bias that Lewontin acknowledged so inconveniently. The interested onlooker can examine a more detailed discussion here. Good day, GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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I intended no insult. Rather than "scientists," I should have used your term: "scientistic evolutionary materialists." As to Newton and divine intervention, his opinion is found in a letter to Bentley, December 10, 1692: http://homepages.wmich.edu/~mcgrew/bent1.htm
To your second Query I answer that the motions which the Planets now have could not spring from any naturall cause alone but were imprest by an intelligent Agent. For since Comets descend into the region of our planets and here move all manner of ways going sometimes the same way with the Planets sometimes the contrary way and sometimes in cross ways in planes inclined to the plane of the Ecliptick at all kinds of angles: its plaine that there is no naturall cause which could determine all the Planets both primary and secondary to move the same way and in the same plane without any considerable variation. This must have been the effect of Counsel. Nor is there any natural cause which could give the Planets those just degrees of velocity in proportion to their distances from the Sun and other central bodies about which they move and to the quantity of matter conteined in those bodies, which were requisite to make them move in concentrick orbs about those bodies. Had the Planets been as swift as Comets in proportion to their distances from the sun (as they would have been, had their motions been caused by their gravity, whereby the matter at the first formation of the Planets might fall from the remotest regions towards the Sun) they would not move in concentric orbs but in such excentric ones as the Comets move in. Were all the Planets as swift as mercury or as slow as Saturn or his Satellites, or were there several velocities otherwise much greater or less then they are (as they might have been had they arose from any other cause then their gravity) or had their distances from the centers about which they move been greater or less then they are with the same velocities; or had the quantity of matter in the Sun or in Saturn, Jupiter and the earth and by consequence their gravitating power been greater or less then it is: the primary Planets could not have revolved about the Sun nor the secondary ones about Saturn, Jupiter and the earth in concentrick circles as they do, but would have moved in Hyperbolas or Parabolas or in Ellipses very excentric. To make this systeme therefore with all its motions, required a Cause which understood and compared together the quantities of matter in the several bodies of the Sun and Planets and the gravitating powers resulting from thence, the several distances of the primary Planets from the Sun and secondary ones from Saturn Jupiter and the earth, and the velocities with which these planets could revolve at those distances about those quantities of matter in the central bodies. And to compare and adjust all these things together in so great a variety of bodies argues that cause to be not blind and fortuitous, but very well skilled in Mechanicks and Geometry.
Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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Yes - In a very real sense the switches that form a gate in a digital logic circuit are just very high gain amplifiers with hysteresis, and I seem to recall that some of the evolved FPGA circuit configurations produced in evolvable hardware research were actually found to be exploiting this analogue element of a system that had been intentionally designed to operate digitally.DrBot
September 15, 2011
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analogy=analog My fingers have free will, it seems.Elizabeth Liddle
September 15, 2011
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Exactly. Discrete inputs are summed over time. I'm not sure that the digital vs analogy distinction is really a useful one.Elizabeth Liddle
September 15, 2011
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In what sense, kf? Why would you call the firing of a neuron "analog", and not, for example, the change from "high" to "low" impedance in an electronic system?Elizabeth Liddle
September 15, 2011
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But first, pardon a general attitude remark. You and I have different worldviews, but perhaps it has not dawned on you that I have spent decades of my life both studying and teaching in the pure and applied sciences and allied fields.
Ah, start with an argument from authority, well done, now let me reciprocate. The problem I have KF is that many of your comments indicate a superficial and deeply biased understanding of these topics, and attempts to engage you with the deeper matters just result in goal shifting or equivocation (or sometimes just paranoid rants). This is from someone who has spent decades of their life both studying and teaching in the pure and applied sciences and allied fields - and has earned their PhD. Of course you will just dismiss this because of your paranoid conspiracy theories about evo-materialism and the Darwinist majesterium. None of those qualified experts are really experts, no, you are the real expert, but there is a vast conspiracy preventing people from seeing the truth. Sad really, you actually come across as someone who is quite bright. As a fellow dyslexic I recognize something in then way your train of thought flows, the problem is that to a large degree is is unstructured, deeply biased, and consequently incoherent at a deeper level.DrBot
September 15, 2011
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I'm not convinced that quantum level effects are necessary to describe the behavior of brains. I know that Penrose disagrees, but I think his is a minority opinion. By talking about firing rate I am merely suggesting that neurons "vote" continuously about what to do (so to speak). A great deal of serendipity and complexity could result from the timing of enabling and inhibiting pulses. I don't pretend to know as much about this as someone working in the field. I just speculate.Petrushka
September 15, 2011
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Petrushka: There are several matters to be addressed on points. But first, pardon a general attitude remark. You and I have different worldviews, but perhaps it has not dawned on you that I have spent decades of my life both studying and teaching in the pure and applied sciences and allied fields. You must therefore realise just how offensive you come across when you speak thusly in a partisan manner, as though only those of your party care about the sciences:
would say, along with the majority of people who post in favor of science . . .
Science, ought not to be confused with evolutionary materialistic scientism, nor should partisans of this ideology imagine that they have a monopoly on science. Science will only profit when it is conducted in an objective manner, not on the sort of ideological a priorism that Lewontin et al espouse. And, when such a priori ideologues then turn around and pretend that they have a monopoly on science, that conceit rings utterly hollow. So, kindly cease and desist. Now, let me turn to particular points: 1 --> In the General Scholium to Principia and in Opticks Query 31, Newton was precisely NOT discussing the stability of the planets [which BTW is again an open question . . . ], but was discussing the general context of science and the difference between explanation on chance, necessity and agency relative to a cosmos governed by principles of order. 2 --> In adverting to these classic texts, I was highlighting in response to the appeal to Beck et al, that in fact, Judaeo-Christian tehism withthe possibility of miracles is DEMONSTRABLY not inimical to the practice of science, at he very highest levels. 3 --> So, in 5 above you have dragged a red herring away from the real issue, then pulled it over to an erected strawman -- which was then triumphalistically knocked over, sadly typical for those of your party. 4 --> Inference to best explanation, of course is the foundational method of investigation in science, and it is how it makes progress. That its results are provisional is a given, and that is why we will always make errors. That is a truism about inductive methods of investigation; which we are bound to undertake once we examine the world of facts. So, the possibility of error is no objection to any particular inference, as it holds for all such inferences and explanations. 5 --> In your haste to dismiss a "supernatural" explanation, you proceed to pummel the strawman on the ground; oblivious to the fact that once laws and reasonable circumstances do explain an object the inference to chance and necessity is reasonable and in fact the default for the explanatory filter. The relevant case of course, which you have not been able to touch, is that functionally specific, complex information is a well tested and empirically reliable sign of design. 6 --> And, meanwhile the actual issue to be addressed, that the reference to Beck as though it warrants imposing a priori materialism, is utterly unwarranted, is insistently ignored. 7 --> You are also of course refusing to look at cases that abundantly confirm that FSCI is a reliable sign of design. And, in trying to spend time on this side issue,t he question of MATERIALIST CENSORSHIP on science that subverts it from objectively seeking the truth about our world on evidence, is being massively begged. 8 --> The notion that you can merely assert that an inference to design is not fruitful of onward investigations would be laughable if it were not so sadly specious. 9 --> The founders of modern science saw the cosmos as God's design, and its contents as God's design. Their ENTIRE research programme was one of reverse engineering, thinking God's thoughts after him, i.e. the point of "natural LAW" was that this was what seemed to be a design principle used to regulate our world. 10 --> And, today, inferring to say the design of DNA etc would lead logically to reverse engineering and forward engineering, just the opposite of a science stopper. 11 --> BRAINS learn. A partyline, question-begging assertion. Our experience, instead is that conscious, intelligent agents learn cognitive things, and use brains and the rest of bodies in the process. To infer onward that BRAINS do the learning is to impose a worldview level a priori. 12 --> In addition, the most important kinds of learning that we do are well beyond the reach of blind trial and error on the scope of the cosmos [just think about he number of states for a cluster of just 1,000 bits or 125 bytes], what we actually are doing is investigating on mental models and rough and ready explanatory or dynamical models, which we test against reality. 13 --> For instance, neither you nor I composed our posts in this comment thread by blind trial and error processes, or we would get nowhere significant. 14 --> And if the only contribution of design theory -- and it is not -- wee to teach us to see beyond blind trial and error, to see how intelligence actually acts, that would be a lot. 15 --> Learning of course, in the relevant sense, is internal to the intelligent agent involved. But again, we see the blinding effect of the materialist paradigm. ___________ GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 15, 2011
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I think it needs picking apart a bit more (but I've had a couple of glasses of wine so beware) I think that anything that is encoded by means of a state of matter has to be digital in the sense that it is discrete, it can be tied down to a definite state. You are correct with the comment about neuronal firing - Neurons either fire or they don't so they are binary in that regard, but they operate in asynchronous parallel and in real time so the firing rate is only 'digital' if you are talking about the timing in terms of planck length - where we might assume that temporal measurements become essentially quantized. Anything encoded in matter HAS to be digital in the sense of being discrete, but this also renders the arguments about DNA being digital irrelevant - perhaps just an appeal to design inference by analogy. Can anyone suggest a way of encoding information in a cell that is not entirely temporal and also not discrete?DrBot
September 15, 2011
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