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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
This thread Visited 2,369 times, 229 visits today 206 posted comments 2,163 visits without leaving any comment (including repeated visitors) July 30 - August 24 25 days Average number of visits per day: 94 Average number of quiet visits per day: 86 Today 229 visits. Well above the daily average. Apparently some onlookers/lurkers have found some reason to come to this thread the last couple of days. But it's time to wrap this up and go back to work. :)Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio @203: Boredom, mostly.daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @201: [responding to question @199] "I don’t know if or why you would do such a thing, I’m just curious what such an article would look like." How about an article on using the US Constitution in an analysis of my 7-month grandson or my 7-week granddaughter cooing? :)Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio @192 Here's what I think of the discussion. If you want more people to read what you write and engage with you, try saying succinctly what you think; respond directly with information where people ask for clarification; and stop with the tedious pseudo Socratic attempt.Pindi
August 24, 2017
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daveS @201: [responding to question @198] "It looks like this could go on for a while, so I’m just going to leave it there." Why? Ran out of time? Do you feel uncomfortable with or intimidated by the topic?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @188: “…could you cite passages in the paper which you believe I may not be equipped to understand?” I don’t know what you understand and what you don’t. Only our Creator knows what you understand and what you don’t. He can even make you understand things you don’t understand now. Does the word 'God' appear in the text of the referenced article?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio,
“Re #191: Yes, I do know what the word “Christians” means. A Christian is a person who accepts Jesus as his/her savior.” What does that mean?
It looks like this could go on for a while, so I'm just going to leave it there.
“…how would you use Christian scriptures in an analysis of the Kalam argument?” Why would I do that? What would I do that for?
I don't know if or why you would do such a thing, I'm just curious what such an article would look like. If you are not interested in it, then I withdraw the question.
Hmm…
Yes, have a look at those parts of the paper and I'm happy to discuss them with you. Despite these issues, his final assessment of the Kalam argument is correct, I believe.daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @4: “It is a very bad paper indeed.” daveS @179: “What I’m looking for is specifically what Snoke got wrong.” daveS @195: "I think his overall conclusions about the Kalam argument are correct, but the paper is very sloppy and contains a serious error relating to equating the impossibility of an infinite past with the impossibility of an infinite future. I have reservations about his analysis of Zeno’s paradoxes as well." Hmm...Dionisio
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daveS @193: "...how would you use Christian scriptures in an analysis of the Kalam argument?" Why would I do that? What would I do that for?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @193: "Re #191: Yes, I do know what the word “Christians” means. A Christian is a person who accepts Jesus as his/her savior." What does that mean?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @193: We don't need extra-biblical arguments because the General Revelation and the Christian Scriptures suffice. God doesn't need us to prove his existence. He takes care of that Himself. God wants us to worship Him in truth and spirit. He wants us to love Him with all our strength and mind. He wants us to love our neighbors like the good Samaritan did. He wants us to proclaim His gracious offer of salvation.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @193: "... it sounds like you are expecting to find theology rather than science in this article, when the organization’s mission is to produce science from a Christian perspective." You've got it wrong again. Read my comment @8 carefully. Take your time. It should help you understand my point.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio @194, I think his overall conclusions about the Kalam argument are correct, but the paper is very sloppy and contains a serious error relating to equating the impossibility of an infinite past with the impossibility of an infinite future. I have reservations about his analysis of Zeno's paradoxes as well.daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @4: "It is a very bad paper indeed." daveS @179: "What I’m looking for is specifically what Snoke got wrong." Hmm...Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio, Thanks, your #190 clears some things up for me. But it sounds like you are expecting to find theology rather than science in this article, when the organization's mission is to produce science from a Christian perspective. Aside from that, how would you use Christian scriptures in an analysis of the Kalam argument? I really don't know what that would look like. BTW, I notice that you and Prof. Snoke had a discussion in the comments to his article, and Ben Waters also showed up with some input. He brought up some very interesting points in some of the "infinite past" threads here a ways back. Re #191: Yes, I do know what the word "Christians" means. A Christian is a person who accepts Jesus as his/her savior.daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @189,
It appears that you and Snoke are in agreement on this point: Christians should not use the Kalam argument. Is this correct?
No. That is not correct. Words have contextual meaning. Try again. PS. I wonder what the anonymous readers, lurkers, onlookers, think of this discussion by now. :)Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @188: "...could you cite passages in the paper which you believe I may not be equipped to understand?" I don't know what you understand and what you don't. Only our Creator knows what you understand and what you don't. He can even make you understand things you don't understand now. Do you understand the second word in the title of Snoke's article? What does it really mean?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @186, 188, 189, Since professor Snoke raises issues related to God and Christianity in a website called "Christian Scientific Society", the Christian Scriptures should be the basis of his article and of the associated discussion. Christians don't have to be concerned about whether a worldly philosophical argument has flaws or lacks strength in order to prove the existence of God, simply because Christians should not engage in worldly arguments on the existence of God. God takes care of presenting His own evidences –the General Revelation– which should suffice to all people. If that itself doesn’t persuade someone, nothing else in this world will. Christians should be aware of that reality, because it’s written. That was barking up a wrong tree. Then to make things worse, professor Snoke disregarded Christian Scriptures while speculating about the concepts of time, space, matter, the universe. That mistake weakened his message. My comment @8 touched that point. That was barking up another wrong tree. Basically, he was off target through his article. Had he written his message in a worldly venue, totally unrelated to God or Christianity, I would have commented only on the logical weaknesses of his article. Or perhaps I would have skipped it altogether. I'm not an active member of the Areopagus. :) But instead professor Snoke made a big 'rice with mango'* of his article, mixing Christianity with weak non-Christian concepts. Christians are --by God's grace-- forgiven sinners who want to refrain from behaving or thinking worldly. Christians are saints (set apart) who want to be godly, faithful to God's word. However, we still fail many times, but God is amazingly gracious and keeps pulling us up so that we can continue our walk in His truth. It's a long and winding road --called sanctification-- that leads to our complete maturity in the faith and spiritual renewal. God loves us, that's why we love Him. His love is Agape. He initiated it even though we were (and still are) unlovable in our adult rational condition. Amazing grace. (*) an exotic dessert I ate at a Thai restaurant in Toronto a couple of months ago.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio,
Christians should not engage in worldly arguments on the existence of God. God takes care of presenting His own evidences –the General Revelation– which should suffice to all people.
It appears that you and Snoke are in agreement on this point: Christians should not use the Kalam argument. Snoke draws this conclusion by demonstrating that the Kalam argument may have a serious flaw, rendering it possibly unsound. You draw this conclusion by invoking the general principle you have stated in the above quote---Christians should not engage in any arguments of this sort, whether they appear to be sound or not. Is this correct?daveS
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio, I was referring specifically to the issues Snoke raises in this particular paper on the Kalam argument. I feel competent to discuss those. If you disagree, could you cite passages in the paper which you believe I may not be equipped to understand?daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @179, “I think the issues Snoke raises are comprehensible to any literate person with average intelligence, however.” No, that's not true. Professor Snoke leads and writes in a Christian website that raises issues related to God and Christianity, which may not be comprehensible to any human --regardless of academic achievements of any kind-- unless God makes it partially understandable to certain people He graciously chooses according to the purpose of His sovereign will. Education, IQ score, physical condition, health, socioeconomic status, geographical situation, ethnic background, gender, nothing worldly helps in matters of God. Science can't reach there. Nothing worldly can help. Even Professor Snoke himself may not fully understand the issues he raises. Since professor Snoke raises issues related to God and Christianity, the Christian Scriptures should be the basis of his article and of the associated discussion. Christians should not engage in worldly arguments on the existence of God. God takes care of presenting His own evidences --the General Revelation-- which should suffice to all people. If that itself doesn't persuade someone, nothing else in this world will. Christians should be aware of that reality, because it's written. Your mentioning the Great Commission opened a whole new discussion topic. That belongs in God's Special Revelation to His people. Not all who call themselves Christians are. Many Germans who called themselves Christians in the 1930s supported the Nazi doctrines which were openly evil. Were they really Christians? Only God knows it. But I doubt they were. There's a great mystery associated with the saving faith in the redemptive value of Christ's death and His supernatural resurrection. Christians get that faith from hearing God's word by God's grace alone. Nothing we do takes us there. Many different people hear God's word --some even memorize it-- but very few have the faith. The grace of God and the work of the Holy Spirit are at the core of this mystery. However, the fruit of the Spirit dwelling within the Christian souls should be manifested in their lives. Faith without fruits is not genuine. Christ has many fans in this world, but not many followers. He brings to Himself the latter --which are called saints in the New Testament-- making them more like Himself through their spiritual renewal in a process called sanctification. The goal of the Christians is to give praises, honor, glory to our Creator and to enjoy worshipping Him in His glorious presence eternally. Nothing compares to that. Sola Scriptura Sola Fide Sola Gratia Solus Christus Soli Dei GloriaDionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio, To answer your #182, I was trying to understand the purpose of your #174. In #174, you seemed to suggest that I might not get certain things because I'm not one of His people. I replied that I believed that the issues in the Snoke paper are accessible to me, being a literate person of average intelligence. I'm not suggesting that an illiterate person of below average intelligence couldn't also grasp the issues Snoke raises. Anyway, I've asked a number of times already---where does Snoke miss the target or bark up the wrong tree? Would you please give a brief synopsis of the passages where he goes wrong?daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @157, I actually think that’s good advice, but I suspect there will always be Christians who are interested in these arguments. Maybe they even see as an essential component of fulfilling the Great Commission. Snoke’s point, in my view, is that if a Christian does choose to argue for the existence of God, then s/he should avoid any about which there is reasonable doubt.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Here's what I wrote @1: I don’t think Christians should argue about God’s existence, just live according to His precepts, by His grace and for His glory. God’s creation is His general revelation to all people. The Christian Scriptures are His special revelation to His people. However, it is written that “in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect” [1 Peter3:15 (ESV)]Dionisio
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daveS, Keep in mind that Snoke's article referenced in the OP of this thread was published in a website that has the qualifier 'Christian' at the beginning of its name.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @179, "I don’t know what I’m supposed to get. I agree that uneducated people can sometimes “mop the floor” with PhD’s. That’s obviously true." Then why did you write this @175: "I think the issues Snoke raises are comprehensible to any literate person with average intelligence, however." Note that you made a big deal of 'literacy' and 'intelligence' whatever that means. :) Do you understand now the text you quoted second @179 or still need help to get it?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @179, You may want to update the text you quoted second. Your quote doesn't match exactly what is in the source comment.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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@178 error: It should read 'blind' instead of 'blond' Sorry for the typo.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio,
Note that my comments @1 & @8 address different but related issues. Starting @159 I’ve been pointing at your comment @157 regarding my comment @1.
Ok. As far as I'm concerned, the discussion of #1 is over, in that I don't have much more to say about it. I take it your position is that no Christians view the Kalam argument as a tool for spreading the Gospel? That seems wrong to me, but perhaps it's my error. Anyway, it doesn't seem to have anything to do with possible errors on Snoke's part, which is what I'm interested in.
In case you haven’t got the memo yet, even though I’ve said it more than once here, in the first chapter of the apostle Paul’s first letter to the Christians in Corinth, it is clearly stated that an uneducated person with lower than average IQ could sweep and mop the floor with the academic PhD folks of this spiritually blond and lost world. In this website we have seen the case a couple of years ago where an uneducated guy asked a very easy to answer biology question to a distinguished biochemistry professor who embarrassingly answered it wrong. Did you get this now?
I don't know what I'm supposed to get. I agree that uneducated people can sometimes "mop the floor" with PhD's. That's obviously true. What I'm looking for is specifically what Snoke got wrong. Where is he "off target" and how is he "barking up the wrong tree"? I've read all your posts, but I need some help in answering these questions.daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @175, In case you haven't got the memo yet, even though I've said it more than once here, in the first chapter of the apostle Paul's first letter to the Christians in Corinth, it is clearly stated that an uneducated person with lower than average IQ could sweep and mop the floor with the ideas and theories of the academic PhD folks of this spiritually blond and lost world. In this website we have seen the case a couple of years ago where an uneducated guy asked a very easy to answer biology question to a distinguished biochemistry professor who embarrassingly answered it wrong. Did you get this now?Dionisio
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