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Physicist David Snoke thinks that Christians should not use the kalaam argument for God’s existence

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The kalaam argument:

The Cosmological Argument or First Cause Argument is a philosophical argument for the existence of God which explains that everything has a cause, that there must have been a first cause, and that this first cause was itself uncaused. The Kalam Cosmological Argument is one of the variants of the argument which has been especially useful in defending the philosophical position of theistic worldviews. The word “kalam” is Arabic for “speaking” but more generally the word can be interpreted as “theological philosophy.” (All About Philosophy)

David Snoke, president of Christian Scientific Society, co-authored a paper with Michael Behe (2004).

From his article, “Why Christians should not use the Kalaam argument,”

The Kalaam argument is essentially as follows, although there are many nuanced variations of it. First, the argument is made that there cannot be any real infinity in the universe (real in the sense of physically obtained and occurring). It therefore follows that time cannot be infinite in the backward direction, since there are no real infinities. One therefore must have an initial starting point to time. But because something cannot come from nothing, that starting point must have some sufficient cause outside itself. That starting point, or sufficient cause, must be something outside of time, which can be identified with God.

My main problem with this argument is its starting point, in rejecting the idea of any real infinity. It may very well be that the universe has a definite starting point in time, which we can identify as the Big Bang. But in modern physics and mathematics, there is nothing inconceivable or illogical about the idea of an infinitely old universe. If we reject that, it is because of the data and observations, not because it is a logical impossibility. More.

See also: What becomes of science when the evidence does not matter?

Comments
daveS @175, Evidently your comments regarding my comment @1 remain off target. Did you read carefully my comments @1+@159-170? It seems like you didn’t. Your comments seem to reveal deep misunderstanding and confusion. Can you try again? Read slowly. Word by word, statement by statement. Take your time, don’t rush. Ok?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @157 & @171: Note that my comments @1 & @8 address different but related issues. Starting @159 I've been pointing at your comment @157 regarding my comment @1. So far it seems like you remain confused at best. Let's keep trying, unless you give up.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio, Let me back up a little.
Professor Snoke seems barking up the wrong tree.
Would you please expand on this, and state it in a non-metaphorical way? Are you talking about the issue of "mixing categories" here that you brought up in #8? Edit: I don't see the relevance of #174. I am not one of God's people of course. I think the issues Snoke raises are comprehensible to any literate person with average intelligence, however.daveS
August 24, 2017
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daveS @157 & @171: The so called General Revelation is to all people. However, at the end you still may not understand certain things because the Christian Scriptures are God's special revelation to His people. You don't seem to be in that group, are you? Note that even many who claim to be aren't. It's written. Christ may have many fans, but not all are followers. He is looking for true followers and He talks to them only. He doesn't want to have any relationship with the fans.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @157 & @171, Did you read carefully my comments @159-170? It seems like you didn't. Your comments seem to reveal your misunderstanding and confusion. Can you try again? Read slowly. Word by word, statement by statement. Take your time, don't rush. Ok?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @171: Do you now see how off target your comment @157 is? The so-called Great Commission has nothing to do with arguing about the existence of God. Professor Snoke seems barking up the wrong tree. Can you see it now or you still need help with this? After having clarified your confusion, do you finally understand my comments @1 & @8?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Dionisio,
What do you mean by “Great Commission”? Where did you get that term from?
The wikipedia entry for "Great Commission" accurately describes my understanding of the term:
In Christianity, the Great Commission is the instruction of the resurrected Jesus Christ to his disciples to spread his teachings to all the nations of the world.
I don't recall where I first learned it, but I hear it fairly frequently in church sermons and encounter it in my reading.
As you can see in the comments @159-164 there’s no commission to proving anything philosophically or scientifically. At least I don’t see it. Do you?
No, but I can see how one who is working to bring the Gospel to the world might be interested in using these philosophical arguments to accomplish that goal. I have seen some of these arguments presented in church, by pastors whose job is exactly to fulfill the Great Commission. I have even encountered this in one-on-one conversations with Christians. It might even happen on this very blog! If you're trying to explain the Gospel to a non-Christian, especially an atheist, it's quite reasonable to address the existence of God in the abstract, IMO.
As you can see in the comments @159-170, my comments @1 & @8 are valid and professor Snoke’s arguments are off target.
Once again, no. Let me use the same approach that you used in your initial posts. Who is Snoke addressing here? You pointed out the that audience consists of Christians. In fact, I would argue the audience is more restricted than that. The first two sentences:
I’ve heard all kinds of well-meaning and well-educated Christian apologists use variations of the Kalaam argument for the existence of God. Although I strongly support the use of logical and rational arguments in apologetics, this one is one that I think should be dropped.
Who is he talking to here? He says he thinks the Kalam argument should be "dropped". By whom? Well, apologists who currently use it (or have yet to drop it). You, however, have either already dropped it or have never picked it up, so he isn't addressing you primarily. You and I can both still read the paper to satisfy our intellectual curiosity of course. So, let's go back to the actual intended audience---those who use the Kalam argument as an apologetic. An apologist would certainly be interested in whether the Kalam argument is 1) logically valid and 2) sound. That it's logically valid is not in question, so the question turns to soundness. That's what Snoke is examining. As I pointed out above, the apologist would not at this point look to support the premises of the Kalam argument by quoting scripture. This much is obvious. One might as well simply quote Genesis 1:1 and stop right there. And it could be, for all I know, that Snoke agrees with you that scriptural evidence shows that the past of our universe is finite. Whatever his views on that are, they are irrelevant, because he is investigating whether the premises of the Kalam argument can be shown to be true, without assuming that God exists and that the bible is the Word of God. That's because he is addressing Christian apologists who have not necessarily dropped the Kalam argument yet. Therefore you and not Snoke are off target here.daveS
August 24, 2017
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.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS, As you can see in the comments @159-170, my comments @1 & @8 are valid and professor Snoke's arguments are off target. Professor Smoke is a physicist, not an expert in the Bible. He seems to bark up the wrong trees and sometimes it looks as though he uses logic fallacies to support his weak arguments. There’s no area of knowledge I can claim expertise on. Not even close. But maybe others should humbly accept that they aren’t experts either? You may want to do some homework and document yourself better next time you want to engage in a discussion here. Ok?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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[Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries] Romans 1:19-20 what can be known about God. Paul stresses the reality and universality of divine revelation, which is perpetual (“since the creation,” v. 20) and perspicuous (“clearly perceived,” v. 20). Divine invisibility, eternity, and power are all expressed in and through the created order (see “General Revelation” at Ps. 19:1). The invisible God is revealed through the visible medium of creation. This revelation is manifest; it is not obscured but clearly seen.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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General Revelation: Psalm 19:1–2.
The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Day to day pours out speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
Romans 1:19–20.
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Special Revelation: Hebrews 1:1–2
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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General and Special Revelation http://www.ligonier.org/blog/general-and-special-revelation-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture/Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS @157 As you can see in the comments @159-164 there's no commission to proving anything philosophically or scientifically. At least I don't see it. Do you? Therefore your statement about the "great commission" seems to denote your lack of knowledge of the Christian Scriptures. This means that my comments @1 is valid.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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@162 addendum: [Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries] Commentary on Matthew 28:18 Jesus now has “all authority.” The Son of Man has come before the Ancient of Days and received the promised dominion (Dan. 7:13, 14). The last stage of history has begun, but it will not be completed until Christ comes to earth in glory (26:64). Commentary on Matthew 28:19 Go therefore. The Great Commission is given on Christ’s authority. Since Christ’s dominion is universal, the gospel must go to the whole world. This commandment is the primary reason for evangelism and missions. nations. The same Greek word often translated “Gentiles.” The great promise that in Abraham all the nations would be blessed (Gen. 12:3) is ready to be fulfilled. baptizing them. See note 3:6. Those who become disciples are baptized in (lit. “into”) the triune name. There is one name (not “names”), and one baptism; Father, Son, and Spirit are one God. Disciples are baptized “in” this name because they belong to God, having been brought into the new covenant that expresses the will of the triune God. Commentary on Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe. Disciples are not just taught what to believe, but how to obey. Jesus taught practical holiness. I am with you always. Jesus was named Immanuel (“God with us”) at His birth (1:23), and now He promises to be with His disciples to the end of the age. He is with them specifically in the responsibility of teaching His will to the world.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork. Psalm 19:1 The psalmist uses creation language here; compare Gen. 1:1–8, where this word has been translated “expanse.” [Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries]Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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Matthew 28:16-20 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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I read and even analyze the opinions of other Christians, but at the end of the day I want to be faithful to what the book says, not what others say that it says. Sola Scriptura. Even the commentaries I read and quote should be taken cautiously, ensuring that they don't make the book say more or less than it really does. I should test everything and hold what is good. Professor Smoke is a physicist, not an expert in the Bible. He seems to bark up the wrong trees and sometimes it looks as though he uses logic fallacies to support his weak arguments. There's no area of knowledge I can claim expertise in. Not even close. But maybe others should humbly accept that they aren't experts either? A biochemistry professor incorrectly answered an easy biology question that was posed to him here a couple of years ago. Why? A hint could be found in 1 Corinthians 1.Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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2 Corinthians 2:17
For we are not, like so many, peddlers of God's word, but as men of sincerity, as commissioned by God, in the sight of God we speak in Christ.
[Reformation Study Bible provided by Ligonier Ministries]
not, like so many. It is tragic that then and now many preach the gospel or teach Christianity as no more than a means of earning a living. Paul’s goal was not personal benefit or financial reward, but the glory of God. in the sight of God. All Paul’s ministry was carried out in the sight of God, providing him a strong motive for keeping his conscience clear (1:12; Acts 23:1; 1 Tim. 1:5; 2 Tim. 1:3).
Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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daveS, What do you mean by "Great Commission"? Where did you get that term from?Dionisio
August 24, 2017
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DS, an actually infinite past of a temporal-causal stagewise successive "now" state cosmos implies spanning the transfinite in finite-stage stages. Utterly problematic. But of course often ducked under the claim that at any t, the set of past timeline stages at that point was already infinite. Such begs the question of the required actual traversal. KF PS: "Proof" is a very slippery term indeed. It is eminently possible to sufficiently warrant the reality of God that an issue of our responsibility in response to the evidence and logic is on the table.kairosfocus
August 23, 2017
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Dionisio,
I don’t think Christians should argue about God’s existence, just live according to His precepts, by His grace and for His glory.
I actually think that's good advice, but I suspect there will always be Christians who are interested in these arguments. Maybe they even see as an essential component of fulfilling the Great Commission. Snoke's point, in my view, is that if a Christian does choose to argue for the existence of God, then s/he should avoid any about which there is reasonable doubt.
Therefore the universe has a finite past and a finite future, according to the scriptures. No infinites associated with the universe.
How certain are you of this? I know there are and have been some Christians who disagree with this (or at least that we can know this) such as Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas. I haven't read their arguments however.daveS
August 23, 2017
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Let's insist on this: Aren’t they mixing two different categories? The universe we’re in, which may have started at the so-called “Big Bang” but as they should well know is not going to last forever, because at the end of this Age of Grace everything should be destroyed. At least that’s what one could interpret in the Scriptures. Therefore the universe has a finite past and a finite future, according to the scriptures. No infinites associated with the universe. However, the ultimate reality is not constrained by time or space. The eternal future is for the souls that were created long after the Big Bank that started this universe. Two separate categories. The souls will outlast the universe demise. The universe started at time Ts People’s souls were created at Tp > Ts The universe shall end at Te > Tp People’s souls will last beyond the end of the universe. They won’t be constrained by time after the physical death of the body they occupy while in this earthly life. Ts < Tp < Te Our souls shall not be constrained by time in the presence of our Creator, because the Ultimate Reality is timeless. The time dimension is part of this universe. Once it gets destroyed, time and space cease to exist along with the universe too. There is no concept of day and night in eternity with God, because we shall be in the presence of true Light eternally. Not physical light, but spiritual Light. We should be careful when dealing with different categories. Let’s try not to mix them. One may or may not believe what is written. That’s what makes us believers or unbelievers. But if we claim to believe it, then we should not make the text say more or less than it really says. This physical universe, which we associate with the relativity theory, quantum physics, gravity, electromagnetic force, weak and strong nuclear forces, had a beginning and eventually should come to an end. Finite past and future. Our souls had a beginning but won’t have any end. Spiritually we have eternal life while the non-Christian souls shall also last eternally but won’t have eternal spiritual life. Spiritually dead souls eternally separated from their Creator’s grace and glory.Dionisio
August 23, 2017
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Let's repeat what I posted @1: I don’t think Christians should argue about God’s existence, just live according to His precepts, by His grace and for His glory. God’s creation is His general revelation to all people. The Christian Scriptures are His special revelation to His people. However, it is written that “in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect” [1 Peter3:15 (ESV)]Dionisio
August 23, 2017
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Mung, I would say I'm not actually engaging in rebuttal at all. What I am trying to do is clarify what I mean when I assert that the past is infinite. I informally stated above that I'm assuming essentially everything you do about time, with the exception that I assume the past is infinite rather than finite. Therefore it could take a bit of back-and-forth to make sure we both agree on what I am proposing. I didn't anticipate it was necessary to explicitly include this premise about arriving at the present moment, so I am now clarifying that this is something I was assuming from the beginning.daveS
August 5, 2017
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daveS:
It’s an assumption, but not a question-begging one, because I’m not trying to prove it.
It's an essential premise of your rebuttal argument. As long as you're willing to grant that your argument doesn't rebut anything, because it assume the very thing that you're allegedly rebutting, I'm willing to settle at that. Are you?Mung
August 5, 2017
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Mung, It's an assumption, but not a question-begging one, because I'm not trying to prove it.daveS
August 5, 2017
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daveS:
I’ll just say that I stand by my post #135 (with the amendments in #141).
Given an infinite past you're not here to stand by those posts. You simply cannot get here from there. Your assumption that you can is a question begging assumption. But don't let that stop you!Mung
August 5, 2017
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Dionisio, I think almost every paragraph in your post would generate a lively debate on its own. :-) I'll just say that I stand by my post #135 (with the amendments in #141).daveS
August 5, 2017
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@144 error correction The very first Christians were Christ’s direct disciples or their disciples, who did not have the entire Bible NT, which wasn’t entirely written at that point. By grace they heard God's word, got the saving faith and received the Holy Spirit that led them ahead. Later in history Christians heard/read the Christian Scriptures, by grace got the saving faith and received the Holy Spirit. Many people hear/read the Christian Scriptures but remain spiritually lost and blind.Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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daveS, It looks as though you have serious difficulties understanding my point. The bottom line of the article is wrong, because from the Christian perspective this universe had a beginning and will have an end at some point which is clearly described in the Christian Scriptures. Hence any association of infinity with this universe is against Christian Scriptures, which is God's special revelation to His people (i.e. the Christians). Only our souls, which are immaterial, outlast this universe. Christians don't have to argue with anybody about the existence of God. Christians see it clearly, others don't. There's nothing Christians can do to change that. That's what I wrote @1. Science can't prove or disprove the existence of God. That's too big a task for science to even try it. It's too far beyond scientific capability boundaries. Combining Christians and infinite matter the way it's done in the given article rendered it inaccurate in the best case scenario. Perhaps the article would have been more philosophically debatable had it not mentioned the Christians in association with infinite matter in the same document. Please, make an effort to understand my point, even if you don't agree with it. Thanks.Dionisio
August 5, 2017
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