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Questions for Proponents of Methodological Naturalism

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Earlier I posted some questions for critics of methodological by Dr. Joshua Swamidass. I plan on writing a response to Dr. Swamidass’s criticisms and questions, but for the moment I will offer my own questions to the proponents of Methodological Naturalism (update – my answers to these questions are here and here).

I often get the feeling that “methodological naturalism” is often raised in modern times for the simple reason of excluding specific groups of people from science rather than being a real position on the philosophy of science. The reason I think this is that (a) it relies on a definition of “natural” that seems to either be never stated, (b) it is asserted against groups of people for which it is only tangentially related, and (c) it is only used to curtail infractions in a single direction. For instance, most creationism is actually methodologically naturalistic, or, if it is not, it is trivially easy to make it so (every description of the actions of the flood I’ve seen are naturalistic – none talk about miracles during the flood). Yet creationists are usually the group pointed to by methodological naturalists when they are making their case.

I would say that, although the questions below are immediately obvious to me as questions one should ask about methodological naturalism (it took me about 10 minutes to come up with them), I have never seen any proponent of methodological naturalism take them up. These seem to be basic, fundamental questions that need answering if methodological naturalism is so important to science. The fact that they are not seems to me to indicate that, at least for many, the point of methodological naturalism is not to have a well-founded philosophy of science, but just to be able to exclude certain groups you don’t like and pretend to be doing it on principle.

Here are the questions:

  1. In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism? How does one determine if a proposed cause is “naturalistic” or not? Some people say, “unobservable,” but if that means it can’t be physically seen it is no different than other parts of physics and chemistry. If that means that it has no effects in the current world, then that is a definition that no supernaturalist would agree with (I certainly think the human soul exhibits effects – i.e., humans would be different without a soul). Other people have tried “testability,” but that is merely the flip side of “observable”. Therefore, what would really count as a demarcation between a proposed cause as being “naturalistic” vs. “non-naturalistic”? If a set of criteria cannot be deduced, then wouldn’t that make “methodological naturalism” equivalent to “special pleading against explanations I don’t like”?
  2. Many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1600s were overturned by Newton, and many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1800s were overturned by Quantum Mechanics. If naturalism is such a fuzzy concept as to be continually overturned by new physics, why is it important?
  3. If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)?
  4. Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be?
  5. Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? Is it reasonable to exclude groups of people from scientific discussions based on whether or not they agree with philosophical naturalism?
  6. If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion? Should the results of this discussion influence scientific practice? Should science journals heed the results of such discussions? Should science textbooks heed the results of such discussions? If not, what is the point of having such discussions at all?
  7. If two scientists (A and B) agree that phenomena X with description Y are the cause of an event, but A believes that the phenomena is non-naturalistic, and B believes that the phenomena is naturalistic, does that mean that scientist B can investigate it but scientist A cannot?
  8. If a phenomena that has been studied in science journals for years is later found to be non-naturalistic (by whatever definition given), should that phenomena cease to be covered by the science journals? Should the prior papers be retracted?
  9. If a phenomena is currently under discussion in a philosophy journal as to whether or not the phenomena is naturalistic, what should the status of scientific research be? Should scientists stop doing research until a result is found by the philosophy journals? Should the science journals feel bound to the decision of the philosophy journals? If so, which ones would hold the definitive answers? If not, what would the point of methodological naturalism be except to enforce philosophical naturalism?
  10. The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins?
  11. In many other academic areas with boundaries, the boundaries are informative rather than strict. I.e., if my studies are in Renaissance art, it would certainly be problematic if I spent my entire time talking about Hellenistic art or automobile designs. However, no one would object at all for including some ideas in a Renaissance art journal on how ideas from Hellenistic art studies can be used in Renaissance art studies, or how Renaissance art can influence modern automobile designs. However, the strict methodological naturalism being promoted is not simply informative, but normative, which actively prevents this type of crossover knowledge. Why are the sciences the only area where crossover knowledge is not important?
  12. Experience is not the same as naturalism. We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural). Thus, one could ground the supernatural in experience just like the natural. Therefore, could one not use such experience scientifically as well?

Anyway, if you are a methodological naturalist, I would love to hear your answers to these questions.

Comments
Oops, gave the wrong link... http://peacefulscience.org/methodological-naturalism/Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
August 24, 2016
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johnnyb. I'm still hoping for you answers to my question. I do not think you have a coherent case, but I'd like to be corrected if I am wrong. Help me out. http://peacefulscience.org/inquiry-into-common-ground/ In a show of good faith, I'll answer your questions. 1. In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism? Natural is anything other than the Christian God or any all-powerful personal deity like Him. This is not to deny His existence but to honor the the fact that His ways are beyond our scientific comprehension. 2. Many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1600s were overturned by Newton, and many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1800s were overturned by Quantum Mechanics. If naturalism is such a fuzzy concept as to be continually overturned by new physics, why is it important? There are many fuzzy concepts that are, nonetheless, important. Morality is a great example. The fact that there are "boundary" cases where right and wrong are not clear, does not somehow negate the whole of ethics and morality. In the same way, the difficulty in deciding where specific cases fall in regards to MN does not somehow negate the whole concept. 3. If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)? Humans are not the Christian God, so we can study them with science. Science, even as it studies humans, assumes that any soul that exists and is relevant is accessible with scientific methods, and is their for natural. This does not make science correct (and certainly it will be wrong at times), and it does not rule out emergent phenomena, but this is how science thinks about things. For example, science has discovered no evidence of an afterlife or an immortal soul, even though we as Christians hold this to be true. I do not think it is possible to "fix" science here, it is just limited. 4. Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be? There is no way to do this within science. The appropriate move is to move from science to science-engaged philosophy when moments like this arise. We do not expect science to give us a complete view of the world, so this is encouraged and welcomed. 5. Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? No. We can all study everything, but in science we only offer natural explanations of things. For example, even though as a Christian I believe we have an immaterial soul, I do not offer this as a scientific explanation for mental illness. As long as I play by those rules within science, I can also pray for God's healing as a Christian. Science is really good about being ecumentical this way. 6. If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion? Should the results of this discussion influence scientific practice? Should science journals heed the results of such discussions? Should science textbooks heed the results of such discussions? If not, what is the point of having such discussions at all? We never exclude studying phenomena, but we do exclude certain types of explanations, like Intelligent Design. The history here answers your question. We have these discussions in scientific bodies, like the NABT, AAAS, NAS, and the decisions of these group sets the rules of science. There is no one single authoritative body, but there is wide consensus on what is and is not science in regards to ID. This doesn't make them "right", but that is how these disputes are resolved. 7. If two scientists (A and B) agree that phenomena X with description Y are the cause of an event, but A believes that the phenomena is non-naturalistic, and B believes that the phenomena is naturalistic, does that mean that scientist B can investigate it but scientist A cannot? No. As discussed, in doing science we study everything (except God) and offer only natural explanations. So, a scientist that believes that the phenomena has a non-naturalistic component can still do this, but they will also believe that the scientific description (even if correct) is incomplete. This is exactly how Christians and atheists study the brain in science all the time, without being in constant dispute over philosophy. 8. If a phenomena is currently under discussion in a philosophy journal as to whether or not the phenomena is naturalistic, what should the status of scientific research be? Should scientists stop doing research until a result is found by the philosophy journals? Should the science journals feel bound to the decision of the philosophy journals? If so, which ones would hold the definitive answers? If not, what would the point of methodological naturalism be except to enforce philosophical naturalism? As already stated, we would study it, but only to understand it in natural terms. 9. The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins? Those that say the universe had a supernatural origin in the Big Bang are doing science-engaged philosophy and theology. That is great, it might be right, but it is not science. Big Bang, in science, is 100% natural with specific predictions about the world we observe. It does not resort to miracle or God's action at any point. So science demonstrates the universe had a beginning but tells us nothing of God's rule in this beginning. 10. In many other academic areas with boundaries, the boundaries are informative rather than strict. I.e., if my studies are in Renaissance art, it would certainly be problematic if I spent my entire time talking about Hellenistic art or automobile designs. However, no one would object at all for including some ideas in a Renaissance art journal on how ideas from Hellenistic art studies can be used in Renaissance art studies, or how Renaissance art can influence modern automobile designs. However, the strict methodological naturalism being promoted is not simply informative, but normative, which actively prevents this type of crossover knowledge. Why are the sciences the only area where crossover knowledge is not important? Scientists make the rules in science. They did this so we can avoid the culture wars and do our work. The system works. I support it. 11. Experience is not the same as naturalism. We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural). Thus, one could ground the supernatural in experience just like the natural. Therefore, could one not use such experience scientifically as well? Yes, but within science we would only think about that in natural terms. Remember, there is nothing here that excludes minds or intelligence from scientific study. Rather, the Divine Mind is excluded from the explanations that science offers. ======= As you can see, I hope, I have a consistent position. Perhaps you do not agree with it. That is fine. Still curious your response to my questions.Prof. S. Joshua Swamidass
August 24, 2016
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Thanks, johnnyb, I'll have to do some background reading on that.daveS
August 24, 2016
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daveS - Yes - Eric Holloway has done some work on it. However, I think Eric asks the question too directly. That is, as I mention in my Using Turing Oracles paper, I don't think that humans have a direct halting oracle. I think the human oracle is smaller than that, but larger than the computable set. Therefore, I think that, if done right, humans could be used to break cryptography, but it will be more complex than just "here's a human, go break the cryptography". Using my oracle conception in a simplistic way, one would have to find a way to get the human to solve intermediate problems on the way which would then lead to them solving the problem.johnnyb
August 24, 2016
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Erasmus - One of the interesting parts of the case for that being the demarcation is that it is one of the few that (a) actually makes a demarcation (i.e., you can use it to tell one side or the other and not be dependent on fuzzy terms), and (b) there are both materialists and non-materialists who agree with it. It is hard to find any definition of materialism and non-materialism that matches even those two basic points (if you know of another one - by all means let me know! And, if there is not one, then there is no methodological naturalism). But, anyway, the paper you are looking for is here. Without diving into philosophy too deeply, just on the surface two benefits of the demarcation are that (a) materialists generally hold that it is theoretically possible (with enough circuits, etc.) to build a true AI, and (b) non-materialists hold that it isn't. This is consistent with my demarcation. Anyway, my demarcation seems to hit most of the basic intuitions of both sides, while also being a definable and understandable standard, unlike most others brought forward.johnnyb
August 24, 2016
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KF, Do you believe there are ( in principle solvable) computational problems that humans cannot solve? That's what I'm after here.daveS
August 24, 2016
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PS: Tesla was reputedly able to design, construct and run a new AC machine in his mind for several weeks then disassemble and inspect for wear. As a result I have seen first example machines by him, and they are not the sort of rough prototypes I am familiar with for many other innovations. Mind beyond matter, methinks.kairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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DS, the issue is to consistently exceed capacity of a computational substrate feasible on relevant scope of investigation. Breaking products of primes like that by hand in 10 minutes would seem on the face of it to exceed the capacity of the human brain as a computational substrate. But then, I do not think it exceeds the capacity of the human mind, which I believe goes beyond that substrate [cf here the Smith two-tier cybernetic controller model]; so the issue is whether we view the human mind as supernatural -- I am inclined, yes, as creativity routinely exceeds the capability of a blind cosmos, and is far beyond what can be rationalised on pre-programmed instincts (such as a Beaver dam etc). The idea of such substrates can be extended to a solar system or galaxy or cosmos acting as a system executing the laws of physics . . . analogue computing is after all computing too. (And in the "gap" after Babbage, it was the prevalent form of computing.) KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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johnnyb, From #45:
What I have said is this – the only demarcation criteria that anyone has come up with that (a) has adherents on both sides, and (b) can be rationally evaluated is computability.
Just curious---has anyone suggested the use of cryptographic problems in this area? As a somewhat contrived example, suppose a person claimed to have the ability to factor very large semiprimes mentally. As a test, you present this person with a "random" semiprime roughly the size of RSA-2048, and they are able to write down the correct factorization by hand in under 10 minutes, with no scratch work. And this person is successful over many trials, always arriving at the correct factorization. Obviously this would be an amazing feat, regardless of whether it involves any non-computable processes. I would place it almost at the level of parting the Red Sea, and don't see how I could avoid categorizing it as "supernatural". I wonder if there are substantial numbers of people on both sides of the debate who would agree this would be a supernatural event.daveS
August 24, 2016
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EZ, I put it to you that we can reliably identify cases of intelligently directed configuration by art, as opposed to blind chance and mechanical necessity. Whether the source of such de3sign is within or beyond the observed cosmos is a matter of circumstances. For instance from the 80s on ID theorists accept that the FSCO/I in cell based life can be accounted for by say a molecular nanotech lab. But the fine tuning of the observed cosmos, even through a multiverse speculation, is of a different order. KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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EZ, kindly show us a case where per actual direct observation of cause, meaningful coded digital information in a "language," beyond 500 - 1,000 bits as text or as algorithmic information has originated by blind chance and/or necessity. Note, as languages also include description languages, this is WLOG relative to functionally specific complex organisation. KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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EZ, I think there are issues over the "only" -- shift and add type stuff (with 1s and 2s complements [looking for a NOT operator]) in binary registers for instance would be not ONLY. KFkairosfocus
August 24, 2016
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johnnyb From your paper:
So, for instance, given only the addition, subtraction, and summation operators, division cannot be computed. However, given those same operators, a multiplication function can be computed.
Are you sure about that? Computers can calculate division problems only using accumulators which add do they not?ellazimm
August 23, 2016
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bornagain 77 @54, At least Calvinball understands and can explain the rules he makes up as he goes along. The proponents of methodological naturalism can't even do that.StephenB
August 23, 2016
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Actually, there is. It is a very useful intellectual exercise. Any reasonable person would have conceded the point: If Moses came back to part the waters of the Red Sea, meteorologists on the scene would characterize it as a miracle. You didn’t concede the point. You didn’t even address it. I conclude, therefore, that you are driven by an ideology that compromises your capacity to reason effectively.
Why should I concede a myth? It's like arguing about magic in Harry Potter. It'a not science.
I am asking you to think. And yes, I did prove my point. There is no reason why science cannot address the subject of miracles if the circumstances will permit it.
When you've got a rock-solid documented 'miracle' then science can examine it.
This is not the ellazimm show. I get to ask questions as well. If you are not willing to address them, then I also get to draw conclusions from your silence.
Knock yourself out.
You can draw an inference that a miracle is possible, or even eminently reasonable, if it is warranted by the evidence.
In the examples you cite your 'best evidence' seems to be: we have no naturalistic explanation. Is that evidence or just a god-of-the-gaps argument?
Still nother strawman argument. I didn’t say that it means a miracle occurred. I said that it means that a miracle can be a more reasonable explanation than a natural cure. Most medical scientists are open to such things. Obviously, you are not, which would indicate, once again, that you are driven by ideology and not by a love of science.
Some undefined and undetected agent intervened in some way which we cannot measure or detect is a more reasonable explanation? Really? How is that not just throwing in the towel?
Something that is wrought by Divine power apart from and beyond the usual order of nature
What divine power? How and when does it intervene? Where does the energy come from that renders the effect? It does take energy, that energy must come from somewhere . . . which means there must be a loss of energy from someplace else. Can we detect that?
You follow the evidence wherever it leads. If nature does not seem to have the power to produce the effect in question, then a miracle is a good candidate for the likely cause.
Again, when do you 'give up' on nature? After a year? After two years? It took centuries for human beings to realise that the earth was actually moving through space at thousands of miles per hour. It took centuries to realise that many diseases are caused by microbes and not by spirits, bad air or some such. For a long, long time it was assumed that new species arrived by some kind of divine intervention and now we have a naturalistic explanation. On the face of it, some aspects of quantum mechanics still look 'miraculous'. But the theories behind the science have been tested and checked and perform as predicted on demand.ellazimm
August 23, 2016
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ellazimm
There is no point in arguing about hypotheticals.
Actually, there is. It is a very useful intellectual exercise. Any reasonable person would have conceded the point: If Moses came back to part the waters of the Red Sea, meteorologists on the scene would characterize it as a miracle. You didn’t concede the point. You didn't even address it. I conclude, therefore, that you are driven by an ideology that compromises your capacity to reason effectively.
You are just trying to grind an axe and you’re asking me to commit to something that hasn’t occurred so you can prove your point.
I am asking you to think. And yes, I did prove my point. There is no reason why science cannot address the subject of miracles if the circumstances will permit it. SB: Again, you are missing the point. Science studies not only the means by which certain features in nature operate (the process) it also studies the means by which certain features in nature come to exist. I put the relevant terms in italics so that you would not evade the issue, which you decided to do anyway. In other words, your claim that science studies only repeatable events is false. Science also studies non-repeatable events such as the origin of life and the origin of the universe.
But the steps and parts of the hypothesised origin of life theory will have to be dependably demonstrated to have been likely to have occurred under the conditions at the time. Yes? Otherwise it’s just all just-so stories. Not science.
Irrelevant. Non responsive.
I’m not here to play your game.
This is not the ellazimm show. I get to ask questions as well. If you are not willing to address them, then I also get to draw conclusions from your silence. SB: You didn’t answer my question? Do you think the scientists at the Lourdes Commission are scientists doing real science with real evidence?
I haven’t looked at their reports or findings so I’m not going to make a judgement.
Non responsive. Your serial evasions are duly noted. Meanwhile, you have changed the subject to logical certainty, which no one has proposed. In other words, you avoided answering my question and substituted a strawman argument.
You don’t have to argue with me if you find my style frustrating
I don’t find your style frustrating. I was simply refuting your false claim that I had attributed logical certainty to a process that involves a mere inference to the best explanation.
Agreed. But that means you cannot say that the event is non-natural.
You can draw an inference that a miracle is possible, or even eminently reasonable, if it is warranted by the evidence.
All science is provisional. Always. New data and evidence have to be considered. Always.
You are repeating what I said as if I hadn’t already said it and as if I didn’t know it, and as if I had been arguing the reverse. It is yet another strawman argument.
And then the explanation remains undermined. It doesn’t mean a miracle (whatever that is) occurred.
Still nother strawman argument. I didn’t say that it means a miracle occurred. I said that it means that a miracle can be a more reasonable explanation than a natural cure. Most medical scientists are open to such things. Obviously, you are not, which would indicate, once again, that you are driven by ideology and not by a love of science.
Example: just because something is a UFO, unidentified flying object, does NOT mean it’s an alien spacecraft. It means it’s unidentified.
Inappropriate example. You are confusing an unknown identity with the unknown cause of an effect.
What is a ‘miracle’ by the way?
Something that is wrought by Divine power apart from and beyond the usual order of nature
How can you ever, logically, assert that some event will never, ever be explained as a product of natural causes?
You follow the evidence wherever it leads. If nature does not seem to have the power to produce the effect in question, then a miracle is a good candidate for the likely cause.StephenB
August 23, 2016
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johnnyb, I watched your two talks. You don't justify how you demarcate natural = computable, supernatural = incomputable. It sounded like you did it in a 2011 paper. Trying hard to be fair I want to read the paper. Is it online? If not maybe you will email it to me?Erasmus Wiffball
August 23, 2016
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ellazimm
At what point do you think you can just throw up your hands and say: okay, science cannot EVER answer this so it must be miraculous. After one year? Two years? Ten years? A century? A thousand years? What?
Methodological naturalism was a dictum (plural dicta) for explaining nature in Middle Ages. It came from Christians. I read that Christians always stuck with it through the centuries. Its important to remember that we start out believing in miracles. We always believe Jesus turned water to wine. The Bible says it was a miracle. So Christians know it was a miracle. Some phenomena really are miracles by divine agents. No doubt of that. Then we have to say, "Why isn't everything we see God's miracles, all the time?" MN says it is lazy to make all causes primary causes. Always look for secondary causes. I said before, MN means "Miracle -- NOT!" I don't think MNist can stop looking for secondary cause. Never ever. But MN came from people who really do believe in miracles. It still works that way now. I think that is what Dr. Swamidass talked about. He believes in miracles. He believes miracles are rare. You actually said what I tried to say better. Thank you. Christians can't do Christian science without asserting the soul. No creation of information without a soul. We work miracles all the time. (Miracles are not rare. The soul God breathed into us is a primary cause.) We create information because God created us in His Image. What's wrong with that? We know it is true. Why do we have to call the soul something else? Why can't we have our own science? Starting with Truth from the Bible? It is our constitutional right. America is the Christian Nation. (But it dies for sure if Clinton gets elected. Only Trump give us pro religion judges, maybe. Only Trump sign laws to give Christian scientists fair share of tax payer money, maybe. Then universities would hire not expel Christian scientists.)Erasmus Wiffball
August 23, 2016
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Please, folks. I know sweet fanny Adams about science, but ‘phenomenon’ is the singular, ‘phenomena’, the plural. It’s been driving me mad, vainly, expecting someone to correct the error.
You missed use of criteria as singular. I was only being polite, copying him. "When in Rome, do as the Romans" -- a little bit ironic, because he got Latin wrong. I'm not too good at English unless I write real slow. So I better not throw stones. (Now I go from Rome to a glass house in China.) Even though it seems like basic literacy to me. I guess not in China. Maybe not in home schools neither. I think sweet fanny Adams is sweet Fanny Adams. Unless Adams is the name of a nice toches. (Excuse my Yiddish.) I never thought before of giving names to nice tocheses. Very good idea.Erasmus Wiffball
August 23, 2016
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You seem to have forgotten your own earlier statement. Would you care to read it again? “Well, if that happened I’d be glad to offer my opinion.” Now you have changed you tune by saying that it simply can’t happen and you refuse to comment on or even consider the hypothetical example. Did you think I would not call your bluff?
I didn't say it can't have happened. But I consider the evidence that it did happen flimsy at best. There's no point arguing over a hypothetical example. Let's stick with stuff we can verify.
It appears that your mind is closed to the possibility of miracles and you would not open your mind even in the teeth of scientific evidence. Since you will not answer my question, I will answer it for you: If a group of meteorologists witnessed Moses parting the waters at will, they would, by virtue of their specialized scientific knowledge, rule out nature as the likely cause and characterize the event as a probable miracle.
You do like putting words in my mouth. IF your scenario actually occurs then we'll talk. Because then we'll have something to talk about. You are just trying to grind an axe and you're asking me to commit to something that hasn't occurred so you can prove your point. You've mapped out the argument in your mind and you're annoyed because I'm not playing along. Sorry.
Again, you are missing the point. Science studies not only the means by which certain features in nature operate (the process) it also studies the means by which certain features in nature come to exist. I put the relevant terms in italics so that you would not evade the issue, which you decided to do anyway. In other words, your claim that science studies only repeatable events is false. Science also studies non-repeatable events such as the origin of life and the origin of the universe.
But the steps and parts of the hypothesised origin of life theory will have to be dependably demonstrated to have been likely to have occurred under the conditions at the time. Yes? Otherwise it's just all just-so stories. Not science.
Most helpful to those who wonder why you continue to evade questions similar to the one I just asked.
I'm not here to play your game.
You didn’t answer my question? Do you think the scientists at the Lourdes Commission are scientists doing real science with real evidence?
I haven't looked at their reports or findings so I'm not going to make a judgement.
Meanwhile, you have changed the subject to logical certainty, which no one has proposed. In other words, you avoided answering my question and substituted a strawman argument.
You don't have to argue with me if you find my style frustrating.
Even so, I will answer your question: You can’t logically say that a natural cure didn’t happen with apodictic certainty. Nothing in science is certain. What you can say is that a cure is medically inexplicable and that there is no known natural explanation. It takes a scientist to make that determination.
Agreed. But that means you cannot say that the event is non-natural. All science is provisional. Always. New data and evidence have to be considered. Always.
Thus, for any non-biased person, it is reasonable to accept an alternative conclusion: A miraculous cure seems more likely than a natural cure if 20 scientists conclude, as a single body of investigators, that there is no known natural cure after having considered literally millions of combinations and permutations as natural possibilities. It is not up to the scientist to say that a cure was miraculous. It is his task to show that nature cannot explain it.
And then the explanation remains undermined. It doesn't mean a miracle (whatever that is) occurred. Example: just because something is a UFO, unidentified flying object, does NOT mean it's an alien spacecraft. It means it's unidentified. What is a 'miracle' by the way? Is it what the Catholic Church says it is? Is it what you say it is? Have you got a strict and solid definition that can unambiguously be applied so that no false positives (or false negatives) get thrown up? At what point do you think you can just throw up your hands and say: okay, science cannot EVER answer this so it must be miraculous. After one year? Two years? Ten years? A century? A thousand years? What? How can you ever, logically, assert that some event will never, ever be explained as a product of natural causes?ellazimm
August 23, 2016
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Please, folks. I know sweet fanny Adams about science, but 'phenomenon' is the singular, 'phenomena', the plural. It's been driving me mad, vainly, expecting someone to correct the error. 'phenomenons' is said to be an alternative plural, but it just muddies the water.Axel
August 23, 2016
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StephenB, Man that sure does sound a lot like Calvinball
http://www.picpak.net/calvin/oldsite/images/roz5.jpg Calvinball http://calvinandhobbes.wikia.com/wiki/Calvinball
:)bornagain77
August 23, 2016
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ID proponent meets the Methodological Naturalist: ID: According to the scientific evidence, the DNA molecule was designed. MN: Your evidence is inadmissible. ID: Why? MN: The scientist must study nature as if nature is all there is. ID: When did you come up with that one? MN: Right after we proposed our "nature-only" paradigm. ID: Isn't that a little self-serving? MN: It works for me. ID: What do you mean by "nature?" MN: I don't know. ID: But it's your rule. Don't you know what you mean by your own rule? MN: I don't need to know what it means. I only know that you must follow it. You've got to love it.StephenB
August 23, 2016
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JB & GP, Serious thoughts. My frame of thought is shaped in part by Plato's remark on the order of nature. And, the order of art. So, I first think the distinction natural vs supernatural is irrelevant. The relevant contrast is what is ART-ificial vs what is natural in the sense of credibly coming from blind chance an/or mechanical necessity acting on initial conditions and boundary circumstances. This leads to empirically credible, reliable signs of design that are observable, testable and repeatable. This of course includes digital codes and functionally specific complex functional organisation with implicit information content. Such FSCO/I is not credibly computable per a random walk search in the relevant config space from arbitrary start point. Because search resources are swamped by the scope of configs for 500 - 1000+ bits of descriptive or coded info. (And setting up next to an isolated island of function leads to exponentially harder searches for golden searches.) However, we have entities that are credibly non algorithmic, free and creative, who routinely produce such entities, including of course programs. The real problem is that of research paradigms and their protected cores. As I recently argued here at UD:
https://uncommondescent.com/global-warming/btb-induction-falsificationism-scientific-paradigms-and-id-vs-evo-mat/ The next “logical” question is how inductive reasoning (modern sense) applies to scientific theories and — HT Lakatos and Kuhn, Feyerabend and Putnam — research programmes. First, we need to examine the structure of scientific predictions, where: we have theory T + auxiliary hypotheses (and “calibration”) about observation and required instruments etc AI + auxiliary statements framing and modelling initial, intervening and boundary conditions [in a world model], AM, to yield predicted or explained observations, P/E: T + AI + AM –> P/E We compare observations, O (with AI again acting), to yield explanatory gap, G: P/E – (O + AI) –> G = g In an ideally successful or “progressive” theory or paradigm, G will be 0 [zero], but in almost all cases there will be anomalies; scientific theories generally live with an explanatory/predictive deficit, g for convenience. This gives meat to the bones of Lakatos’ pithy observation that theories are born, live and die refuted. However, when a new theory better explains persistent anomalies and has some significant success with otherwise unexplained phenomena, and this occurs for some time, this allows its champions to advance. {Let us insert an infographic:} sci_abduction We then see dominant and perhaps minor schools of thought, with research programmes that coalesce about the key successes. Where also scope of explanation counts, i.e. a theory T1 may have wider scope of generally regarded success, but has its deficit g1 greater than g2, that of a theory T2 of narrower scope. Where investigatory methods are more linked by family resemblance than by any global, one size fits all and only Science method. This picture instantly means that Popper’s criterion of falsification is very hard to test, as, first, observations are themselves coloured by instrumental issues (including eyeball, mark 1 etc). Second, key theoretical claims of a given theory Tk, are usually not directly predictive/ explanatory of observations, they are associated with a world state model AMk, that is generally far less tightly held than Tk. In Lakatos’ terms, we have an armour-belt that protects the core theory.
The problem of persistent explanatory deficits leads to a problem that imposing methodological naturalism and the like locks out a realistic chance of a degenerative research programme being abandoned. Once it has enough institutional clout to impose such a rule. Where, Meyer in Darwin's Doubt as adjusted summarises:
scientists should accept as a working assumption that all features of the natural world can [in the end] be explained by material causes without recourse to purposive intelligence, mind, or conscious agency [--> typically equated to "the supernatural"]. (p. 19)
Instead, we must understand science in terms of seeking to discover the empirically grounded truth about our world, through an open ended process. KFkairosfocus
August 23, 2016
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SB: That same methodology (for approaching miracles) can be used in various scientific contexts. If Moses came back and parted the Red Sea again, meteorologists on the scene could show that it was likely not a natural event. ellizamm
Well, if that happened I’d be glad to offer my opinion.
SB: By all means, do so. How would you explain a large body of water suddenly dividing into two mile long walls of water separated by a piece of dry land, parting at the exact moment Moses raises his arms, staying in place long enough to save the Israelites, and the suddenly crashing back to a single body of water the moment the prophet drops his arms, just in time to kill all the Egyptians.
I don’t feel the need to explain myths and legends. If such a thing occurs again and is irrefutably documented then we can talk.
You seem to have forgotten your own earlier statement. Would you care to read it again? “Well, if that happened I’d be glad to offer my opinion.” Now you have changed you tune by saying that it simply can’t happen and you refuse to comment on or even consider the hypothetical example. Did you think I would not call your bluff? It appears that your mind is closed to the possibility of miracles and you would not open your mind even in the teeth of scientific evidence. Since you will not answer my question, I will answer it for you: If a group of meteorologists witnessed Moses parting the waters at will, they would, by virtue of their specialized scientific knowledge, rule out nature as the likely cause and characterize the event as a probable miracle.
Science can study aspects of a model of the origin of life. If a certain process was surmised to have occurred then the conditions under which it would reliably occur can be studied and tested. Evidence of past occurrences can also be discovered.
Again, you are missing the point. Science studies not only the means by which certain features in nature operate (the process) it also studies the means by which certain features in nature come to exist. I put the relevant terms in italics so that you would not evade the issue, which you decided to do anyway. In other words, your claim that science studies only repeatable events is false. Science also studies non-repeatable events such as the origin of life and the origin of the universe. SB: You remain vague at the very times when taking a position would be most helpful. Many of your arguments and questions appear to be grounded in MN, yet you refuse to make your position explicit. Is it because you support MN but cannot defend it? It appears so.
Most helpful to whom? To those who want to label everyone as materialist or non-materialist?
Most helpful to those who wonder why you continue to evade questions similar to the one I just asked.
Logically, how can you say that something didn’t happen (natural cure)? How can you absolutely claim that natural causes could not possibly be responsible?
You didn’t answer my question? Do you think the scientists at the Lourdes Commission are scientists doing real science with real evidence? Meanwhile, you have changed the subject to logical certainty, which no one has proposed. In other words, you avoided answering my question and substituted a strawman argument. Even so, I will answer your question: You can’t logically say that a natural cure didn’t happen with apodictic certainty. Nothing in science is certain. What you can say is that a cure is medically inexplicable and that there is no known natural explanation. It takes a scientist to make that determination. Thus, for any non-biased person, it is reasonable to accept an alternative conclusion: A miraculous cure seems more likely than a natural cure if 20 scientists conclude, as a single body of investigators, that there is no known natural cure after having considered literally millions of combinations and permutations as natural possibilities. It is not up to the scientist to say that a cure was miraculous. It is his task to show that nature cannot explain it.StephenB
August 23, 2016
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johnnyb: "I mostly agree, except for #7." I think we probably agree on that point too. Indeed, if you look at point #8, I say: "scientific thought, however inspired or influenced by personal worldviews (which will always happen, because the basic cognitive bias cannot be eradicated from human activities), must be developed and shared only by reference to observed facts and reasonable inferences derived from those facts" It seems that it is not so different from what you say: "The fact is that you actually can’t get away from your worldview altogether. " I think that the "basic cognitive bias" derives from the simple fact that we believe what we believe, and it's impossible, for anyone, not to be influenced by what one believes. That's why I say: "if you do science, you must not use your personal worldviews to support your science." And not: "if you do science, you must not use your personal worldviews to inspire your science." Even science has an important component that, IMO, cannot be shared, because it is personal and intuitive. I suppose that I am, on that respect, a Polanyiite. :) Our personal worldview will always inspire and motivate our scientific reasoning. My point is that, while retaining that inspiration and motivation, we must support it with scientific reasoning: good inferences from observed facts, and we must try to do that honestly, with a conscious effort to compensate for our original bias to our personal worldview. I am convinced that that can be done, to a satisfying degree, if one remains honest and motivated by a deep desire for truth. And, of course, we have to "allow multiple worldview viewpoints"! That is possible only if we respect those worldviews even if we don't agree with them, and if the confrontation takes place, honestly, at the level of what can be share even between people with different worldviews: observed facts and reasonable inferences derived from them. And I absolutely agree that "there is not a strong distinct line, just a fuzzy area to pass through". :) By the way, my sincere compliments for your paper quoted in #49: it is really interesting, even if certainly very technical for my poor understanding. I will try to read it in depth, and maybe ask you something about it.gpuccio
August 23, 2016
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Eliza - For an example, see my paper Using Turing Oracles in Cognitive Models of Problem-Solving. Gpuccio - I mostly agree, except for #7. The fact is that you actually can't get away from your worldview altogether. What to do about this is a difficult question. My choice would be to allow multiple worldview viewpoints, knowing that the fewest assumptions you bring with you will generate the widest sharability of your ideas. If your endeavor leaves the world of observation and only lives in the world of worldviews, then you should consider yourself a philosopher instead of a scientist, but there is not a strong distinct line, just a fuzzy area to pass through.johnnyb
August 23, 2016
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johnnyb: I think I agree with your points, but I will try to just summarize briefly my views, that I have expressed many times. 1) "Nature", "natural" and "naturalism" have no real meaning. They are ambiguous concepts. "Reality" and "realism" are simple and reliable concepts. 2) The purpose of science is to investigate what is real, not what is "natural". 3) The definition of "nature" which is implicit in most cases where "methodological naturalism" is invoked is: "anything that can be explained by essentially sticking to my current understanding of what is real" IOWs, methodological naturalism is simply used as a cognitive bias to exclude explanations that would require some basic remodeling of the current configuration of scientific thought. IOWs, the ambiguous concept of "methodological naturalism" is simply a science stopper. 4) There is, however, a good epistemological principle that should be applied to science, but it has nothing to do with "methodological naturalism", and it is the following: 5) While the purpose of science is to investigate what is real, there are epistemological constraints that can be applied to science versus other forms of cognition, like philosophy and religion. While I don't believe in the existence of a final "scientific method", I do believe that science can be broadly conceived as an investigation of reality based on the observation of facts and on reasonable inferences to the best explanation from those observed facts. 6) Another important point is that both the observed facts and the related inferences should be vastly shareable. The inferences, however, need not be accepted by all, indeed as a rule they will not. 7) Therefore, the simple constraint that must be put on science is: if you do science, you must not use your personal worldviews to support your science. IOWs, scientists are "peers", whatever their worldview, and the only confrontation in science must be based on facts and reasonable inferences, not on worldviews. 8) Therefore, philosophy, religion and methodological naturalism (which is simply a philosophical worldview, and a very bad one indeed!) have no role in scientific discussion. Of course, philosophies can influence scientific thought, and vice versa, but the important point is that scientific thought, however inspired or influenced by personal worldviews (which will always happen, because the basic cognitive bias cannot be eradicated from human activities), must be developed and shared only by reference to observed facts and reasonable inferences derived from those facts.gpuccio
August 23, 2016
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Actually, I do. But I’m not sure how that affects anything. Are the random sequence repeatable or not? If they are not, then that falls outside your definition.
Sigh. You will predictably get random sequences. If the particular sequences were predictable then they wouldn't be random. But there is an overall statistically defined pattern.
I’m ambivalent on this. I’m fine with saying no. If the answer is no, then what use is Methodological Naturalism? Now, I also have a yes – computable results are naturalistic, non-computable results are non-naturalistic.
I told you: I'm not defending or attacking methodological naturalism. Give me an example of a non-computable result that you consider non-naturalistic. So I'm sure what kind of thing you are talking about.
What wasn’t clear about the computability / incomputability divide? But, as I said, if the answer is that there is no good separation, then what does MN give us?
Give me some examples so I know what you're thinking.
I am not asking you to defend ID. I am asking you to defend the implication that ID methodology assumes a supernatural cause. If that is not what you meant, then your comment makes no sense.
I was not discussing ID. If you're reading into my comments then that's your interpretation.
[a] An example of studying how a feature of nature operates would be chemical bonding. [b] An example of studying how a feature of nature comes to be would be the origin of life. Science can study either category. You had claimed that scientists “look for something that is predictable and repeatable.” I was simply refuting that claim by indicating that science also studies things that are not predictable and repeatable.
Science can study aspects of a model of the origin of life. If a certain process was surmised to have occurred then the conditions under which it would reliably occur can be studied and tested. Evidence of past occurrences can also be discovered.
Meanwhile, ID’s critics simply claim that ID doesn’t use the scientific method without knowing ID’s methods or without defining the scientific method. You appear to do the same thing. At the same time, you know nothing about ID’s methods. Do you think this is rational?
I'm not attempted to defend or attack ID or its methodology.
No. I am simply answering your question about a methodology for approaching supernatural causes. This would be an example of an inference to the best explanation. Do you deny that the 20 medical scientists who serve on that board are really scientists or that they are doing science when they assert that a medical healing was likely not the result of natural causes? If natural causes are ruled out, isn’t it reasonable to affirm a supernatural cause?
Logically, how can you say that something didn't happen? How can you absolutely claim that natural causes could not possibly be responsible? "Likely" is not the same as "Definite". And I would say that it makes more sense to say: we don't know rather than to say that some undefined, undetected and untested agent was responsible.
By all means, do so. How would you explain a large body of water suddenly dividing into two mile long walls of water separated by a piece of dry land, parting at the exact moment Moses raises his arms, staying in place long enough to save the Israelites, and the suddenly crashing back to a single body of water the moment the prophet drops his arms, just in time to kill all the Egyptians.
I don't feel the need to explain myths and legends. If such a thing occurs again and is irrefutably documented then we can talk.
Yes, I was wondering about that. You remain vague at the very times when taking a position would be most helpful. Many of your arguments and questions appear to be grounded in MN, yet you refuse to make your position explicit. Is it because you support MN but cannot defend it? It appears so.
Most helpful to whom? To those who want to label everyone as materialist or non-materialist?ellazimm
August 22, 2016
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Here are the questions: In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism? How does one determine if a proposed cause is “naturalistic” or not? Some people say, “unobservable,” but if that means it can’t be physically seen it is no different than other parts of physics and chemistry. If that means that it has no effects in the current world, then that is a definition that no supernaturalist would agree with (I certainly think the human soul exhibits effects – i.e., humans would be different without a soul). Other people have tried “testability,” but that is merely the flip side of “observable”. Therefore, what would really count as a demarcation between a proposed cause as being “naturalistic” vs. “non-naturalistic”? If a set of criteria cannot be deduced, then wouldn’t that make “methodological naturalism” equivalent to “special pleading against explanations I don’t like”?
If you are saying that a common problem for all discussions about "naturalism" and, by extension, "methodological naturalism" lies in the lack of accepted operational definitions then I would agree. I think many of us are familiar with the opening paragraphs of the entry on "naturalism" in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
The term “naturalism” has no very precise meaning in contemporary philosophy. Its current usage derives from debates in America in the first half of the last century. The self-proclaimed “naturalists” from that period included John Dewey, Ernest Nagel, Sidney Hook and Roy Wood Sellars. These philosophers aimed to ally philosophy more closely with science. They urged that reality is exhausted by nature, containing nothing “supernatural”, and that the scientific method should be used to investigate all areas of reality, including the “human spirit” (Krikorian 1944; Kim 2003). So understood, “naturalism” is not a particularly informative term as applied to contemporary philosophers. The great majority of contemporary philosophers would happily accept naturalism as just characterized—that is, they would both reject “supernatural” entities, and allow that science is a possible route (if not necessarily the only one) to important truths about the “human spirit”
If you say that science is limited to the investigation of those phenomena that can be observed, however indirectly, or which can be inferred from such observation then I would agree. I would then ask, in what way is that a limitation? What else is there? Isn't the "supernatural" an empty set? Ghosts, for example, are popularly thought to be a supernatural phenomenon. But if such entities exist in objective reality, if they have a nature which can be observed and described, however elusive they might be, then how are they not a natural phenomenon? The same would also be true of any putative deity. On the other hand, if you assume that the set of supernatural phenomena includes those that are forever inaccessible to scientific investigation, such that we cannot know if they even exist, then how does that provide any explanatory purchase in the natural world? Take, for example, the case of epileptic seizures. Two explanations are proposed. The first argues that they are the effect of misfiring brain cells, the second claims that they are a sign of demonic possession. In the first case, we can observe the physical brain and the neurons of which it is partially composed and look for any abnormal activity that might be associated with the seizures. In the second case, if we cannot have any knowledge of the existence of demons, of their nature, of how they might "possess" a human being and influence their behavior then of what possible use is it as an explanation, let alone a scientific explanation?
Many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1600s were overturned by Newton, and many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1800s were overturned by Quantum Mechanics. If naturalism is such a fuzzy concept as to be continually overturned by new physics, why is it important?
Can you think of a better way to investigate the natural world?
If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)?
Show science evidence of a "supernatural component" and it will investigate. Of course, if this "supernatural component" has observable properties which are susceptible to investigation then how is it not natural?
Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be?
If a phenomenon is observable as such, however indirectly, if it therefore has distinctive properties and attributes then it is a natural phenomenon. Now describe a phenomenon that cannot be observed, however indirectly, and has no distinctive properties and you may have your supernatural. Next, tell us of what use such concepts are.
Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? Is it reasonable to exclude groups of people from scientific discussions based on whether or not they agree with philosophical naturalism?
Who's being excluded? You can talk about them all you want. But the reality is that scientists are busy people. They have a hard enough time developing and testing their own theories. Why should they waste that time on ideas that have no obvious merit and whose supporters are unable to show any?
If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion? Should the results of this discussion influence scientific practice? Should science journals heed the results of such discussions? Should science textbooks heed the results of such discussions? If not, what is the point of having such discussions at all?
Should science textbooks be discussing The Force from Star Wars or "sub-space" from Star Trek?
If two scientists (A and B) agree that phenomena X with description Y are the cause of an event, but A believes that the phenomena is non-naturalistic, and B believes that the phenomena is naturalistic, does that mean that scientist B can investigate it but scientist A cannot?
No, but we'd all like to know what a non-naturalistic phenomenon is and scientist A had better have a good operational definition of it and a description of how he or she proposes to investigate it. BTW, just in passing, "phenomena" is the plural, "phenomenon" is the singular.
If a phenomena that has been studied in science journals for years is later found to be non-naturalistic (by whatever definition given), should that phenomena cease to be covered by the science journals? Should the prior papers be retracted?
No, why should they?
If a phenomena is currently under discussion in a philosophy journal as to whether or not the phenomena is naturalistic, what should the status of scientific research be? Should scientists stop doing research until a result is found by the philosophy journals? Should the science journals feel bound to the decision of the philosophy journals? If so, which ones would hold the definitive answers? If not, what would the point of methodological naturalism be except to enforce philosophical naturalism?
You do understand this is all moot until we can agree on what we mean by "supernatural" and what sort of evidence we would expect to see if it existed at all?
The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins?
The Big Bang theory does not offer a reason why it went "bang" in the first place, supernatural or otherwise. It's unknown. If you want to limit the supernatural to anything which is currently unknown - although not necessarily unknowable - then it's as good a definition as any other.
Why are the sciences the only area where crossover knowledge is not important?
Why would you think "crossover knowledge" is not valuable to science?Seversky
August 22, 2016
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