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Questions for Proponents of Methodological Naturalism

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Earlier I posted some questions for critics of methodological by Dr. Joshua Swamidass. I plan on writing a response to Dr. Swamidass’s criticisms and questions, but for the moment I will offer my own questions to the proponents of Methodological Naturalism (update – my answers to these questions are here and here).

I often get the feeling that “methodological naturalism” is often raised in modern times for the simple reason of excluding specific groups of people from science rather than being a real position on the philosophy of science. The reason I think this is that (a) it relies on a definition of “natural” that seems to either be never stated, (b) it is asserted against groups of people for which it is only tangentially related, and (c) it is only used to curtail infractions in a single direction. For instance, most creationism is actually methodologically naturalistic, or, if it is not, it is trivially easy to make it so (every description of the actions of the flood I’ve seen are naturalistic – none talk about miracles during the flood). Yet creationists are usually the group pointed to by methodological naturalists when they are making their case.

I would say that, although the questions below are immediately obvious to me as questions one should ask about methodological naturalism (it took me about 10 minutes to come up with them), I have never seen any proponent of methodological naturalism take them up. These seem to be basic, fundamental questions that need answering if methodological naturalism is so important to science. The fact that they are not seems to me to indicate that, at least for many, the point of methodological naturalism is not to have a well-founded philosophy of science, but just to be able to exclude certain groups you don’t like and pretend to be doing it on principle.

Here are the questions:

  1. In methodological naturalism, what exactly is meant by naturalism? How does one determine if a proposed cause is “naturalistic” or not? Some people say, “unobservable,” but if that means it can’t be physically seen it is no different than other parts of physics and chemistry. If that means that it has no effects in the current world, then that is a definition that no supernaturalist would agree with (I certainly think the human soul exhibits effects – i.e., humans would be different without a soul). Other people have tried “testability,” but that is merely the flip side of “observable”. Therefore, what would really count as a demarcation between a proposed cause as being “naturalistic” vs. “non-naturalistic”? If a set of criteria cannot be deduced, then wouldn’t that make “methodological naturalism” equivalent to “special pleading against explanations I don’t like”?
  2. Many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1600s were overturned by Newton, and many of the things that were essential to naturalism in the 1800s were overturned by Quantum Mechanics. If naturalism is such a fuzzy concept as to be continually overturned by new physics, why is it important?
  3. If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)?
  4. Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be?
  5. Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? Is it reasonable to exclude groups of people from scientific discussions based on whether or not they agree with philosophical naturalism?
  6. If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion? Should the results of this discussion influence scientific practice? Should science journals heed the results of such discussions? Should science textbooks heed the results of such discussions? If not, what is the point of having such discussions at all?
  7. If two scientists (A and B) agree that phenomena X with description Y are the cause of an event, but A believes that the phenomena is non-naturalistic, and B believes that the phenomena is naturalistic, does that mean that scientist B can investigate it but scientist A cannot?
  8. If a phenomena that has been studied in science journals for years is later found to be non-naturalistic (by whatever definition given), should that phenomena cease to be covered by the science journals? Should the prior papers be retracted?
  9. If a phenomena is currently under discussion in a philosophy journal as to whether or not the phenomena is naturalistic, what should the status of scientific research be? Should scientists stop doing research until a result is found by the philosophy journals? Should the science journals feel bound to the decision of the philosophy journals? If so, which ones would hold the definitive answers? If not, what would the point of methodological naturalism be except to enforce philosophical naturalism?
  10. The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins?
  11. In many other academic areas with boundaries, the boundaries are informative rather than strict. I.e., if my studies are in Renaissance art, it would certainly be problematic if I spent my entire time talking about Hellenistic art or automobile designs. However, no one would object at all for including some ideas in a Renaissance art journal on how ideas from Hellenistic art studies can be used in Renaissance art studies, or how Renaissance art can influence modern automobile designs. However, the strict methodological naturalism being promoted is not simply informative, but normative, which actively prevents this type of crossover knowledge. Why are the sciences the only area where crossover knowledge is not important?
  12. Experience is not the same as naturalism. We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural). Thus, one could ground the supernatural in experience just like the natural. Therefore, could one not use such experience scientifically as well?

Anyway, if you are a methodological naturalist, I would love to hear your answers to these questions.

Comments
Erasmus -
Did you think that physics is supernaturalism? Seems you don’t.
Based on what? I have always been open to the idea that aspects of physics are non-materialistic. In fact, many physicists think so. What have I said that leads you to the conclusion that physics can't include the supernatural?
Do you think naturalism requires a computable universe? But the naturalists just don’t think clear enough to know it?
What I have said is this - the only demarcation criteria that anyone has come up with that (a) has adherents on both sides, and (b) can be rationally evaluated is computability. Interestingly, it was developed by those on the materialist side (it has a long history going back at least to Hilbert, but more modern proponents include Stephen Wolfram and Iris von Rooij). You don't have to agree with the definition, but if you disagree with the definition *and* you hold to methodological naturalism, you have to come up with *some* concrete definition of methodological naturalism. Right now, definitions of naturalism are all over the map, with some esteemed philosophers of science saying that angels should be considered naturalistic! If someone is going to say that methodological naturalism should be the rule, then they have to develop an appropriate, concrete boundary that can be both identified and defended as appropriate. Despite asking for an alternative, nothing reasonable has been presented.
I never saw a naturalist say the universe MUST be computable. I saw physicists say it MIGHT be. Maybe you misunderstood MIGHT as MUST?
Then you have been sleeping.
Why do you think naturalists think incomputable means supernatural? I really want to know. Please answer this question. Even if you ignore the rest.
Computability is based on finite, discrete logic. Thus, the logical power required to go from state A to state B is finite. Incomputable functions require greater logical power that is not based on simple, localized rules. Thus, the parts of reality that operate in this way (however few or many pieces that may be) should not be considered materialistic, as their operation is based on a more expansive logic. For instance, let's say that being X can operate as a Turing oracle for the Halting function. That means that X is causally aligned, not to localized, finite causes, but to the logical structure of the halting function. As I have pointed out in my presentation, every other definition of materialism has been shoved by the wayside. So, if you are a materialist, and you think that has a real, defensible meaning, by all means share with us what you mean by it. Perhaps what you mean by material the rest of us include in what we consider supernatural. That is the case with, for instance, Holverson who includes angels in his definition of materialism. But if "methodological naturalism" is a rule in science, then we should all at least be granted to know what the word actually means and how that plays out in real life.johnnyb
August 22, 2016
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ellazimm
It’s not my position to present or defend the ID position.
I am not asking you to defend ID. I am asking you to defend the implication that ID methodology assumes a supernatural cause. If that is not what you meant, then your comment makes no sense.
Give me an example. (of two scientific categories)
[a] An example of studying how a feature of nature operates would be chemical bonding. [b] An example of studying how a feature of nature comes to be would be the origin of life. Science can study either category. You had claimed that scientists “look for something that is predictable and repeatable.” I was simply refuting that claim by indicating that science also studies things that are not predictable and repeatable.
Show me a documented example of when that has happened.
I wasn’t reporting on events. I was explaining the definition of MN, which is an arbitrary rule that requires a scientist to “study nature as if nature is all there is” Accordingly, it rules out all non-material causes for biodiversity. To be more precise, it rules out all the evidence for design, however compelling that evidence might be. In other words, it isn’t real science. Real science doesn’t rule out evidence for anything. Meanwhile, ID’s critics simply claim that ID doesn’t use the scientific method without knowing ID’s methods or without defining the scientific method. You appear to do the same thing. At the same time, you know nothing about ID’s methods. Do you think this is rational? SB: It’s really quite basic. I would use a methodology which shows that natural causes are likely not the cause of an observed effect. The Lourdes Medical Commission, for example,
Are you saying they are proving a negative?
No. I am simply answering your question about a methodology for approaching supernatural causes. This would be an example of an inference to the best explanation. Do you deny that the 20 medical scientists who serve on that board are really scientists or that they are doing science when they assert that a medical healing was likely not the result of natural causes? If natural causes are ruled out, isn’t it reasonable to affirm a supernatural cause? SB: That same methodology can be used in various scientific contexts. If Moses came back and parted the Red Sea again, meteorologists on the scene could show that it was likely not a natural event.
Well, if that happened I’d be glad to offer my opinion.
By all means, do so. How would you explain a large body of water suddenly dividing into two mile long walls of water separated by a piece of dry land, parting at the exact moment Moses raises his arms, staying in place long enough to save the Israelites, and the suddenly crashing back to a single body of water the moment the prophet drops his arms, just in time to kill all the Egyptians.
I guess you’re not paying attention. I clearly stated that I am no defending or attacking methodological naturalism.
Yes, I was wondering about that. You remain vague at the very times when taking a position would be most helpful. Many of your arguments and questions appear to be grounded in MN, yet you refuse to make your position explicit. Is it because you support MN but cannot defend it? It appears so.StephenB
August 22, 2016
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johnnyb, Simpler questions. More fundamental questions. Do you think you can tell naturalists what the "really" mean? Do you think naturalism requires a computable universe? But the naturalists just don't think clear enough to know it? I never saw a naturalist say the universe MUST be computable. I saw physicists say it MIGHT be. Maybe you misunderstood MIGHT as MUST? Why do you think naturalists think incomputable means supernatural? I really want to know. Please answer this question. Even if you ignore the rest.Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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johnnyb, "The one defensible demarcation for natural/non-natural that I can think of is computability. This is the demarcation I use because it is clear and objective. However, being incomputable does not mean that it is not prone to scientific inquiry (again, see the randomness example)." At risk seeming I gang with ellazimm... You understand something very very badly. Maybe not the math. Maybe you don't know basic features of physics. Physicists say some aspects of nature is really continuous. Did you think QM says it isnt't? You know there are uncountably many numbers in a continuum. I hope. You know there are only countably many computable numbers. I hope. Physics doesn't limit nature to what is computable. Did you think that physics is supernaturalism? Seems you don't. I looked over your videos. Did not watch them all. You're not the only one thinking incomputable means supernatural. It's like you guys are assuring each other that you're right. Does nobody in your conferences tell you that you're wrong? Am I wasting my breath? Are you open to hear that your conference (so important to you) leads people to believe something totally wrong?Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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johnnyb, You should google methodological naturalism. Then read what people outside your group said about it for many years. Going back to the middle ages actually (the concept, not the term MN). There is a whole lot to read. Your questions, I mean the way you word them, ARE misunderstandings. They are loaded. They will not help you understand. You need to find out how others say what they say. Work hard at it, to understand THEIR position. THEN ask THEM questions. (Not your own group.) THEN criticize. Its a oneway street. I think you started at the wrong end. Someone who puts on "alternatives to methodologiacl naturalism" conferences should do a lit review on methodological naturalism. Like a lit review in a PhD dissertation. I do not think you did anything like that. Better idea. Do a review of MN, middle ages to present. Publish it at a secular philosophy conference. Not your own conference. So you make sure you understand what you oppose. So people not in your group say "yeah, you understand us." You do not understand them yet. If you rehearse your misunderstanding, it will turn into a habit. A bad habit, hard to break.Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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You clearly don’t really understand the mathematics behind the arguments.
Actually, I do. But I'm not sure how that affects anything. Are the random sequence repeatable or not? If they are not, then that falls outside your definition.
So you dodged the question: can you provide an example of how you would verify a cause to be supernatural. Can you do so, yes or no?
I'm ambivalent on this. I'm fine with saying no. If the answer is no, then what use is Methodological Naturalism? Now, I also have a yes - computable results are naturalistic, non-computable results are non-naturalistic.
Fine, then you define what you mean by supernatural. Be specific. Be clear.
What wasn't clear about the computability / incomputability divide? But, as I said, if the answer is that there is no good separation, then what does MN give us?johnnyb
August 22, 2016
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If you don’t mind, go ahead and articulate the ID method—step by step. Show me where it assumes that some cause is supernatural. Or is it the case that you really don’t know the ID method in spite of all your claims that it is unscientific?
It's not my position to present or defend the ID position. It is up to the ID proponents to prove their case based on methodology and data. And if their arguments isn't accepted then I would say their argument isn't strong enough.
Not necessarily. That is only true when studying how some feature of nature operates. It is not true when studying how some feature of nature comes to be. You appear not to understand the difference.
Give me an example.
Methodological Naturalism is a rule that forbids a number of legitimate scientific questions even before the evidence is allowed to speak. Among other things, it rules out questions about non-materialistic causes for biodiversity. It has no historical precedent since it was conceived to protect the Neo-Darwinian paradigm from rational scrutiny. It serves no other function.
Show me a documented example of when that has happened.
t’s really quite basic. I would use a methodology which shows that natural causes are likely not the cause of an observed effect. The Lourdes Medical Commission, for example,
Are you saying they are proving a negative?
That same methodology can be used in various scientific contexts. If Moses came back and parted the Red Sea again, meteorologists on the scene could show that it was likely not a natural event.
Well, if that happened I'd be glad to offer my opinion.
Indeed, did it ever occur to you that Big Bang Cosmology does not qualify as science by your standards? Not only is it not repeatable, it points to a supernatural Creator.
Except that parts of the Big Bang Theory imply other events and things which can be detected. If the universe came about because of some kind of divine intervention then what events or results would you predict as being required because of that cause?
Methodological Naturalism is anti-science on all counts. At the moment, science is primarily a search for natural causes; methodological naturalism is exclusively a search for natural causes. That is a big difference. However, even those priorities could change with new evidence. Our task is to get nature to reveal her secrets. It is not to instruct her on which ones she should reveal and which ones she should keep to herself.
I guess you're not paying attention. I clearly stated that I am no defending or attacking methodological naturalism.
Actually, I think you are, because I basically agree with 99% of what you are saying. MN says that, a priori, science cannot consider anything supernatural. Do you agree or disagree with this?
I al ready answered that I think.
Still agreeing 100% (however, actual God-of-the-gaps arguments are actually very rare, claims of such are usually just name-calling, not actual descriptions of the arguments).
They are actually very common amongst many who have already decided what kind of answer they will accept.
If you read my questions carefully, you would see that I am making exactly the same point! If there isn’t an objective demarcation, then how on earth can one say that MN is part of science.
So you dodged the question: can you provide an example of how you would verify a cause to be supernatural. Can you do so, yes or no?
Here is the part where I disagree with you. You suddenly took up a definition of “supernatural” which no supernaturalist I know of holds. You say that it is “beyond detection, definition or constraint”. Where did you get such a definition of supernatural? I certainly don’t hold to it. You also seem to think that supernatural things are non-repeatable. Why? Some supernatural things may be non-repeatable, but I hardly think that this is the definition.
Fine, then you define what you mean by supernatural. Be specific. Be clear.
However, non-repeatability does not necessarily rule something out of the realm of science, as random sequences are also non-repeatable, yet nonetheless scientists claim that they have detected such sequences at the quantum level.
:-) You clearly don't really understand the mathematics behind the arguments. Theres' no shame in that, most people don't get it. But you shouldn't pretend to have a point when the math is beyond you.ellazimm
August 22, 2016
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johnnyb, "MN says that, a priori, science cannot consider anything supernatural." MN says, "Sire, I have no need for that hypothesis." In secular science, there is no right to a hypothesis. You have to show a need for it. Scientists showed many times that a religious/superstitious hypothesis was not necessary. Now they say, "Never stop trying to show it is not necessary." How do you convince them to stop? How do you convince them that a cause is invisible, not a phenomena they might see some day? But you have a constitutional right to do religious science. Science where the supernatural is a known fact not a hypothesis. Which more than 50% of Americans know is true. Tax money should go to religious scientists who know what tax payers know. Not just to secular scientists who refuse to know.Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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Eliza -
Sigh. You are missing the point.
Actually, I think you are, because I basically agree with 99% of what you are saying. MN says that, a priori, science cannot consider anything supernatural. Do you agree or disagree with this?
If a ‘scientist’ has a claim or question they want to examine they devise a repeatable methodology for testing that claim or question.
I agree 100%.
Their procedure cannot assume that some cause is supernatural. They look for something that is predictable and repeatable. And if they don’t find that then they look harder.
I also agree 100%.
There never has been a rule that any questions or claims are off limits. What is off limits is bad methodology or making god-of-the-gaps arguments.
Still agreeing 100% (however, actual God-of-the-gaps arguments are actually very rare, claims of such are usually just name-calling, not actual descriptions of the arguments).
I tell you what, give me an example of how you would scientifically check that some cause was supernatural as opposed to natural.
If you read my questions carefully, you would see that I am making exactly the same point! If there isn't an objective demarcation, then how on earth can one say that MN is part of science.
Show me how you can pin down in a lab some cause that is beyond detection, definition or constraint. How can you get a supernatural cause to be repeatable?
Here is the part where I disagree with you. You suddenly took up a definition of "supernatural" which no supernaturalist I know of holds. You say that it is "beyond detection, definition or constraint". Where did you get such a definition of supernatural? I certainly don't hold to it. You also seem to think that supernatural things are non-repeatable. Why? Some supernatural things may be non-repeatable, but I hardly think that this is the definition. However, non-repeatability does not necessarily rule something out of the realm of science, as random sequences are also non-repeatable, yet nonetheless scientists claim that they have detected such sequences at the quantum level. The one defensible demarcation for natural/non-natural that I can think of is computability. This is the demarcation I use because it is clear and objective. However, being incomputable does not mean that it is not prone to scientific inquiry (again, see the randomness example). You should check out the AM-Nat videos. You might find at least some of them interesting.johnnyb
August 22, 2016
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I looked it up. Intelligence is a "hypothetical construct." I am not sure it's good to talk about intelligence. We have a perfect word. SOUL!!! The problem is not our talk about souls. It is judges that don't let us talk about the truth if it is religious. If we talk about intelligences instead of souls, it's like surrender. It's like saying the judge is right. But the soul is the truth. More than 50% of Americans know it is the truth.Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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johnnyb, "there are subjects that are necessarily observer-dependent (such as psychology)." I never heard of that in psychology. I mean modern psychology. Psychologists used to use introspection. Then psychologists banned it. I think introspection is the only way to know of intelligence and free will and creative ideas. Now psychologists say intelligence is a construct, not something real. Because you can't cut open a brain and see intelligence. It is not a phenomena. So they say it doesn't really cause phenomenas. They say it must be defined operationally. Like the score you make on the SAT.Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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"StephenB I would use a methodology which shows that natural causes are likely not the cause of an observed effect. The Lourdes Medical Commission, for example, uses such a methodology to provide evidence for miraculous cures. That same methodology can be used in various scientific contexts." It is not just similar. It is the same. Information is real. You can put it on a floppy disk. Human souls create information from nothing. IT IS A MIRACLE. It is a miracle just like creating matter from nothing. Information is real just like matter. Creating real things from nothing is a miracle. Humans can do some miracles because God created us in His Image.Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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johnnyb "Actually, they are. They are being kicked out of the academy right and left. Precisely because they were examining things that people thought that they shouldn’t." Yes. Expelled stunned me so hard. But I think hardly no one got expelled in America for working on religious beliefs. Because they can sue for getting fired. They got expelled for saying work on religious beliefs wasn't religious. I never heard of creation scientists getting expelled. Except the ones who talk about intelligent design, not creation science. I talk about souls when talking about intelligences. I think you do too. It is American of course. More than 50 percent know they have souls. Even Muslims. Muslim science is the same as American science. (But not because Allah of Mohamed is the same as Elah of Jesus.) Burma science would be different. (I never heard of science in Burma.) Because Buddha did not believe in souls. (He was not consistent. Reincarnation can't work if everything alive doesn't have souls. Even a bacteria.) WE NEED A DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE FOR AMERICAN SCIENCE!!! Declare independence of the US from the UN. We need to stop judges from antireligious discrimination. (Maybe using 2nd amendment. We are in a war and about to loose big time. Time to get real. Time for "The gloves are coming off." (Wish we had the Dick instead of the Donald.) We tried to use words. They did not work. Atheists are more and more in control of America. Not just through the UN. We have many enemies at home.) American scientists should say "I do the American kind of science, not the Burma kind of science." More than 50% of Americans know their souls give them free will, to create information (think of creative ideas). That's why Silicon Valley is in the US not Burma. All the creative ideas in Silicon Valley come from scientists that know intelligent design is true. More than 50% of research money should go to scientists who promise to do American Science. Then the academy would hire not fire scientists who know creative ideas come from souls. This is a unusual case where federal government can solve our problem. But it won't if Hillary wins. Only Trump will replace anti religious judges with pro religious judges. "Value voters" need to get real. It's about control, not values. Take control of America from atheists. Give it back to God. Hold your nose and vote.Erasmus Wiffball
August 22, 2016
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elazimm
(Scientists) Their procedure cannot assume that some cause is supernatural.
If you don't mind, go ahead and articulate the ID method—step by step. Show me where it assumes that some cause is supernatural. Or is it the case that you really don't know the ID method in spite of all your claims that it is unscientific?
They look for something that is predictable and repeatable. And if they don’t find that then they look harder.
Not necessarily. That is only true when studying how some feature of nature operates. It is not true when studying how some feature of nature comes to be. You appear not to understand the difference.
There never has been a rule that any questions or claims are off limits. What is off limits is bad methodology or making god-of-the-gaps arguments.
Methodological Naturalism is a rule that forbids a number of legitimate scientific questions even before the evidence is allowed to speak. Among other things, it rules out questions about non-materialistic causes for biodiversity. It has no historical precedent since it was conceived to protect the Neo-Darwinian paradigm from rational scrutiny. It serves no other function.
I tell you what, give me an example of how you would scientifically check that some cause was supernatural as opposed to natural.
It’s really quite basic. I would use a methodology which shows that natural causes are likely not the cause of an observed effect. The Lourdes Medical Commission, for example, uses such a methodology to provide evidence for miraculous cures. That same methodology can be used in various scientific contexts. If Moses came back and parted the Red Sea again, meteorologists on the scene could show that it was likely not a natural event. Indeed, did it ever occur to you that Big Bang Cosmology does not qualify as science by your standards? Not only is it not repeatable, it points to a supernatural Creator. Methodological Naturalism is anti-science on all counts. At the moment, science is primarily a search for natural causes; methodological naturalism is exclusively a search for natural causes. That is a big difference. However, even those priorities could change with new evidence. Our task is to get nature to reveal her secrets. It is not to instruct her on which ones she should reveal and which ones she should keep to herself.StephenB
August 22, 2016
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Actually, they are. They are being kicked out of the academy right and left. Precisely because they were examining things that people thought that they shouldn’t.
Like who for example? Someone with tenure?
Well, then, on the question itself, we are actually agreeing. You don’t seem to be a proponent of methodological naturalism. I am not saying that everyone must agree that there is a soul. I am saying that it should not be an ironclad rule of science that it cannot, in principle, investigate it. You seem to agree with me. Thus, I would count you as a critic of MN, not a proponent of it.
I'm not a critic or supporter of MN. I'm a supporter of science.
If only that were true. But nonetheless, you seem to be a critic of MN, rather than a proponent of it.
Maybe that's because you've decided what it means.
I could go on, but I think in general, you and I agree that Methodological Naturalism should not be an ironclad rule of science, which is all that I am really concerned about for this post.
I don't think we do agree actually. You are putting words in my mouth. You have an axe to grind and I am merely pointing out that doing good science requires being able to test and examine claims using rigorous and solid methodology.
We disagree on whether or not there are any viable non-naturalistic options on the table, and about whether or not people proposing them are being kicked out of the academy for good or bad reason, but those are really topics for a different thread. We do, however, seem to be agreed that there should be no final rule that says that non-naturalistic options shouldn’t be considered within science. Thus, we are both critics of Methodological Naturalism.
Sigh. You are missing the point. If a 'scientist' has a claim or question they want to examine they devise a repeatable methodology for testing that claim or question. Their procedure cannot assume that some cause is supernatural. They look for something that is predictable and repeatable. And if they don't find that then they look harder. There never has been a rule that any questions or claims are off limits. What is off limits is bad methodology or making god-of-the-gaps arguments. I tell you what, give me an example of how you would scientifically check that some cause was supernatural as opposed to natural. Show me how you can pin down in a lab some cause that is beyond detection, definition or constraint. How can you get a supernatural cause to be repeatable?ellazimm
August 22, 2016
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No one is being told not to examine anything.
Actually, they are. They are being kicked out of the academy right and left. Precisely because they were examining things that people thought that they shouldn't.
you have to be able to be able to create a testing environment and it helps if your results are based on firm methodology and are observer independent
I agree generally, though there are subjects that are necessarily observer-dependent (such as psychology).
That’s why most biologists and biological departments look askance when someone brings it up. After years and years and years of people trying to find a soul the evidence just doesn’t stack up.
Well, then, on the question itself, we are actually agreeing. You don't seem to be a proponent of methodological naturalism. I am not saying that everyone must agree that there is a soul. I am saying that it should not be an ironclad rule of science that it cannot, in principle, investigate it. You seem to agree with me. Thus, I would count you as a critic of MN, not a proponent of it.
No one who uses good methodology is excluded. If a researcher has an agenda or exhibits a biased prior belief or uses poor technique then people are less inclined to take them seriously.
If only that were true. But nonetheless, you seem to be a critic of MN, rather than a proponent of it. I could go on, but I think in general, you and I agree that Methodological Naturalism should not be an ironclad rule of science, which is all that I am really concerned about for this post. We disagree on whether or not there are any viable non-naturalistic options on the table, and about whether or not people proposing them are being kicked out of the academy for good or bad reason, but those are really topics for a different thread. We do, however, seem to be agreed that there should be no final rule that says that non-naturalistic options shouldn't be considered within science. Thus, we are both critics of Methodological Naturalism.johnnyb
August 22, 2016
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If humans have a supernatural component (i.e., a soul), then is it problematic for biologists to not be allowed to probe the parts of human behavior dependent on it, and/or require them to give wrong explanations for behavior (i.e., use a naturalistic explanation when one is not appropriate)?
No one is being told not to examine anything. But you have to be able to be able to create a testing environment and it helps if your results are based on firm methodology and are observer independent. Sadly, most explorations of the existence of human souls falls short of the scientific standard. That's why most biologists and biological departments look askance when someone brings it up. After years and years and years of people trying to find a soul the evidence just doesn't stack up.
Is there a way to determine whether or not a phenomena is understandable via naturalism when it is first investigated? If not, what should a scientist do if they are investigating a cause but later discover that it is not naturalistic? Should they abandon their research? What would the appropriate move be?
Umm . . . perhaps it would be better to give an example as I can't think of one. If a phenomenon is repeatable and testable then we start looking for causes if one isn't already known. No one jumps to the conclusion that it's not naturalistic.
Doesn’t methodological naturalism mean that scientists who are philosophically naturalistic can study more types of phenomena than those who disagree philosophically, because of the types of causes they believe responsible? Is it reasonable to exclude groups of people from scientific discussions based on whether or not they agree with philosophical naturalism?
No one who uses good methodology is excluded. If a researcher has an agenda or exhibits a biased prior belief or uses poor technique then people are less inclined to take them seriously.
If there is a disagreement among scientists as to whether or not a particular phenomena is naturalistic or non-naturalistic, what is the appropriate place for such scientists to have a discussion? Should the results of this discussion influence scientific practice? Should science journals heed the results of such discussions? Should science textbooks heed the results of such discussions? If not, what is the point of having such discussions at all?
Look, either you have an explanation of the cause of a phenomenon or you don't. You can't just say: I think some undetected, undefined being or agent is responsible for this event. That's not an explanation. Now if you have a known, defined, testable agent that you think is causing something then you can put that agent or cause under scrutiny.
If a phenomena that has been studied in science journals for years is later found to be non-naturalistic (by whatever definition given), should that phenomena cease to be covered by the science journals? Should the prior papers be retracted?
An example?
If a phenomena is currently under discussion in a philosophy journal as to whether or not the phenomena is naturalistic, what should the status of scientific research be? Should scientists stop doing research until a result is found by the philosophy journals? Should the science journals feel bound to the decision of the philosophy journals? If so, which ones would hold the definitive answers? If not, what would the point of methodological naturalism be except to enforce philosophical naturalism?
Sigh. No one is stopping anyone from examining whatever they want. Funding agencies and academic departments are more likely to fund work that is clearly based on a solid foundation of previous work, methodology and plausibility. Scientists never feel bound by philosophers. Philosophers have been wrong many, many times.
The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins?
The scientific basis for the Big Bang event has nothing to do with theology so why would it be removed? Newton was a strong theist but his scientific work stands on evidence and experimentation. You ask some pretty odd questions.
Experience is not the same as naturalism. We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural). Thus, one could ground the supernatural in experience just like the natural. Therefore, could one not use such experience scientifically as well?
Who says they're supernatural? People study consciousness and creativity all the time. And they look for repeatable, testable, observer independent results. This is not that tricky.ellazimm
August 22, 2016
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You know of “intelligence” and “creative ideas” by introspection? Any other way?
Yes, I know of intelligence and creative ideas by observing their effects.StephenB
August 21, 2016
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StephenB, You know of "intelligence" and "creative ideas" by introspection? Any other way?Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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Erasmus Wiffball
johnnyb was very careful to say phenomena. A signal is a phenomena. An idea is abstract. It is not a phenomena. We cant see it. No measurement of it.
Context, context, context. I was responding to jdk and his restricted notions of science, not Johnnyb. When I repeat a quote, I always put a name to it. Meanwhile, an intelligent agent with a creative idea can be a cause and it can be detected through its phenomenal effects, which are signals. Hence, the phenomenon of a signal points to an intelligent cause with a creative message, ie. ET.StephenB
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb "However, in the case of chaos theory, it actually *is* calculable, just not practically so. That is, if I have all of the info for the present, and know all of the interactions, it is actually calculable." What is "actually calculable" that is not "practically calculable"? Most numbers cannot be described. (Numbers, uncountable. Descriptions, countable.) Can you know what you cannot describe? If you cannot describe parameters and/or initial conditions, how can you calculate? The problem with predicting chaos is not just error in measuring initial conditions. The initial conditions may not even be describible. The true system may not even be describible.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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By the way, I don't get a notification or anything if someone comments on one of my posts, and I don't spend as much time just hanging out on UD as I used to. However, you can send me an email anytime to jonathan@bartlettpublishing.com.johnnyb
August 21, 2016
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jdk - Never saw your comments (they were posted over 5 days after everyone stopped commenting), but I just took a look. Chaos theory does sit on a fine line. First of all, however, just because scientists use X does not meant that it is methodologically naturalistic. As I said, I don't believe it is a useful concept. Therefore, the fact that scientists do X right now doesn't necessarily mean that it is naturalistic. However, in the case of chaos theory, it actually *is* calculable, just not practically so. That is, if I have all of the info for the present, and know all of the interactions, it is actually calculable. What makes it chaotic is that minor perturbations can cause massive swings. So, for instance, normally we would think about having a tiny measurement error in the setup leading to a tiny measurement differential in the result. However, for chaotic systems, tiny measurement errors in the setup can lead to massive measurement differentials in the result. This is not a problem of calculation, per se, but rather of measurement. Another group of systems (and usually these are the same systems) are those whose output cannot be generalized, but you must actually run the step-by-step calculation. For instance, I can generalize the action of gravity over a long distance, but a chaotic system, I may have to actually calculate it in plank-time increments to get a reliable calculation of the results. This is still a fixed-time, fixed-resource calculation. So, I don't think chaos theory is really a counterexample. For some reason you thought my intuition function was discontinuous with the rest of the talk, but it actually directly arises from the halting function mentioned earlier. I probably didn't make the connection clear, but the two are directly related.johnnyb
August 21, 2016
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StephenB, (johnnyb's Big Brother?) "It isn’t necessary to observe the creation of an idea in order to draw a scientific inference of its existence. SETI doesn’t have to observe ET sending a signal to know that a signal has been sent." johnnyb was very careful to say phenomena. A signal is a phenomena. An idea is abstract. It is not a phenomena. We cant see it. No measurement of it.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb 12 "Experience is not the same as naturalism. We have experience of the supernatural just in talking with other people (as consciousness and creativity – two aspects of humanity – are supernatural, not natural). Thus, one could ground the supernatural in experience just like the natural. Therefore, could one not use such experience scientifically as well?" I think somebody else said something like I have to say. You can't see my consciousness. It isn't a phenomena. Why is my private experience, not a phenomena, supernatrual? How can scientists look at it publicly. They can't. This is a really differnt issue from supernatural cause of phenomenas. Because a phenomena is public. That's what scientists get together to explain. Private experience is not a phenomena.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb 11, "However, the strict methodological naturalism being promoted is not simply informative, but normative, which actively prevents this type of crossover knowledge. Why are the sciences the only area where crossover knowledge is not important?" It looks different to a scientist from how it looks to a lawyer. MN stands for "Miracle - NOT!" It means always trying to show that invisible cause is superstition. Because lots of invisible causes really did turn out to be superstition. Like I already said, you have to make scientists believe that they don't have any chance of showing that a phenomena is not a miracle. Tht other phenomenas caused it, not something invisible. Ask yourself "Why should I stop trying to show that this is NOT a miracle?" You have to convince them that it is hopelss to continue. Even though scientists showed a lot of miracles to be superstition. Why is human free will not a superstition? A human act of will creates information. How do you convince a scientist it is not quantum undeterminism? With brain working deterministicly on innovation that the human did not create by will. Boiling it down, how do you convince scientists they hit a dead end. Stop trying. You can't explain it like the wind, without a wind god making it blow. Like the rain, without a rain god making it fall. why won't a human created in the image of God turn out to be a supersition like a rain god or a wind god?Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb 10 "The Big Bang was founded by a Priest who, in his unpublished work, said that it confirmed the Genesis account of creation. Today, many people (including some who do research on it) continue to hold to this idea, and say that the Big Bang shows that the universe has a supernatural origin. Does that mean that the Big Bang theory should be removed from science? Why or why not? How do those criteria affect other theories that involve divine origins?" You make God and the Bible look weak by grasping at straws. A beginning is a begininng. Period. It is consistent with the Bible. It doesn't confirm the Bible. Because we wouldn't say the Bible was false if scientists said that the universe always existed. We would say that science was wrong. ADD: Also, time does NOT have a beginning in Big Bang. The singularity isn't something that happens. Just like 0 is not in (0, t]. There is a time t. But no time 0. that is what the science says.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb 8 "If a phenomena that has been studied in science journals for years is later found to be non-naturalistic (by whatever definition given), should that phenomena cease to be covered by the science journals? Should the prior papers be retracted?" I think you are getting mixed up by calling a phenomena non-naturalistic instead of the cause. Do you mean the science explanation turns out to be totally wrong? And all the scientists give up trying to show the miracle is not really a miracle. The scientists agree the phenomena has an invisible cause? They will NEVER EVER be able to see it?Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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johnnyb 7 "If two scientists (A and B) agree that phenomena X with description Y are the cause of an event, but A believes that the phenomena is non-naturalistic, and B believes that the phenomena is naturalistic, does that mean that scientist B can investigate it but scientist A cannot?" A has to convince B that B will never figure out how to show that A is super-natural-stitious. B knows that science killed lots of superstitions. If B is an atheist, B wants to kill God. If B believes in God, then B believes its better not to ever stop trying to show that a phenomena is really not a miracle.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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I think that miracles happen all the time. It is a miracle to create information out of thin air, like creative people do. Information is real. You can save it on a floppy disk.Erasmus Wiffball
August 21, 2016
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