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What Giberson Wants from ID

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In a recent debate between Stephen Meyer and Karl Giberson, Giberson (a well-known theistic evolutionist) related what he thought was how ID could proceed in order for him to take it more seriously as a scientific endeavor. I thought it was a very thoughtful response, and posted it here for you.

The quote below was transcribed by myself in a limited amount of time, so I’m sure a lot of the details are wrong, but I think I was able to capture the essence of Giberson’s critique. The exchange occurs in the video from about 1:41:00 to about 1:48:00 if anyone finds corrections worth noting.

Here’s my rough transcribed version:

First I would like to see the emergence of something that would look like a theory. I’ve tried to think what a good theory of Intelligent Design might look like. The closest thing I can think of to what Intelligent Design might look, in order to fit in with current scientific theories, is something like is the second law of thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics is kind of an anti-designer. It says that information is constantly destroyed. And the second law of thermodynamics is very precise—it gives a mathematical equation, it has a number that says “this is the amount of information,” it has a term called entropy for the amount of disorder, it has a rate at which disorder is increased, and you can solve problems with it. Many many things that we would like to understand in nature are illuminated in a very satisfactory way. If there were to be a law something like that, that showed how information creation works, so that you could say, which you can’t right now, “here is a biological entity, and here is the amount of information that it has. And here are mechanisms by which that information can kind of flow in,” so that we could begin to see how this works and understand the process, rather than having to infer some missing designer that does things off the radar, and then we might have to imagine what might have happened after-the-fact. So if a theory emerged like that I would find that very appealing.

The other thing I would want to see is something that would change the way Intelligent Design purports to “explain” things. Usually in nature, when we want to explain things, at the end of it we have our curiosity kind of satisfied. The problem with design explanations is that they just move the question you are asking from one place to the next. It’s sort of like finding a pattern on the floor, and asking “where did that come from,” and you see a stamp that matches the pattern, and you say, “well it came from that samp over there.” Well, now your question is “where did this stamp come from?” If you look at an intricate, highly improbable sequence in the DNA, and you say “where did it come from,” and someone answers, “well, an external highly improbable source of information came in put that pattern on the DNA, and that’s where it came from.” Now my question is simply about that external source. I would want to see something that didn’t just move my question from one location to another. Something that would either answer my question, or leave me with a different question. But I think ID right now just takes my question and moves it to a different place.

Anyway, I thought I would open this up for discussion, as I think it is a very well reasoned and articulated description of how some of our more friendly critics feel about our work. I appreciate Giberson’s efforts at articulating what, specifically he views as the defects in ID theory.

Comments
Giving Giberson credit that he actually wants a fair discussion, and is open minded about the origins of life is being way too kind to him. I don't see anywhere in this long diatribe of his that is anything more than a wordy two part rejection of ID- 1. ID has no theory. 2.If God made life, what ,made a God. That's his scholarly input? pssst. Giberson once wrote on Huffpost, criticizing the signers of the Dissent from Darwinism list for being scientists who didn't have the proper biological background to appreciate the science behind it. When I posted that his own college training also had nothing to do with biology, my post was also quickly deleted, and anything I posted in the future which pointed out his hypocrisy was never allowed to be posted, even after I wrote to the Huffpost site moderators, to ask why they provide a forum for Giberson to claim to be an authority on the subject, whilst not allowing anyone to question his credentials. Nothing in this recent bit of text from him gives me any reason to believe he wants to, nor has the ability to fully understand the topic.phoodoo
May 17, 2014
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Giberson wants evidence for design in biology to be tied to the concreteness of the laws of thermodynamics. He has the entire issue turned around backwards. Every material object in the cosmos is tied to the laws of thermodynamics. But the relationships that exists between objects in a translation system (like those that caused life to exist) cannot be tied to thermodynamics. If they were established by law, the system could not function. That's the whole point. The specification required to establish those relationships had to appear in a material system prior to the onset of information, prior to Darwinian evolution, and prior to the organization of the first living cell on earth. This is the intractable fact he can take from thermodynamic law. I posted these observations on Giberson's recent guest article at The Daily Beast:
These material conditions had to arise prior to the organization of the first self-replicating cell on earth. They are brought about by the presence of two sets of physical objects operating in a system. In order to organize the cell, a set of *representations* and a set of *protocols* must arise to bridge the (necessary) discontinuity* between the medium of genetic information and its resulting effects. One set must encode the information and the other set must establish what the result of that encoding will be. These are physical necessities. But because the organization of the system must also preserve the discontinuity, a group of relationships are established that otherwise wouldn't exist, producing effects which are not derivable from the material make-up of the system. These unique conditions are the inexorable mandate of translation (which were proposed in theory and confirmed by experiment). This system is something that the living cell shares with every other instance of translated information ever known to exist. It’s the first irreducibly complex organic system on earth, and from it, all other organic systems follow. Moreover, it is specifically not the product of Darwinian evolution - it's the origin of life's capacity to change and adapt over time. And as the first instance of specification on earth, it marks the rise of the genome, and the starting point of heredity. Not only must these objects (representations and protocols) arise within a non-information (inanimate) environment, but the details of their construction must be simultaneously encoded in the very information that they make possible. Without these things, life on earth would simply not exist.
Apparently, my comments were unwelcome - they were deleted. In any case, in order to be generous to Giberson we can accept that he merely wants ID proponents to assume the truth of materialism in order to produce material evidence against it. That is perfectly fine; ID proponents have accomplished the task. Now what Karl?Upright BiPed
May 17, 2014
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The "Laws" of Design are unknown. And most modern Scientists are not stumbling over eachother to be the first to discover them:) 1000 years from now when Design is a Cosmic Given, Science Historians will be amused when reviewing the "Oops Era" thinking of today. The "Laws of Evolution" of today will be particularly amusing. Better than Flat Earth.ppolish
May 17, 2014
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johnnyb: Interesting post and worth more discussion than I have time for right now. Just one very quick observation: Despite Giberson's (welcome) civility, what he is really asking for -- what he really wants ID to become -- is another mechanistic theory. One that gives a mechanism and a precise measurement and that can tie back to definitive laws about how this or that feature of biological systems came about. So he really isn't interested in design as an argument. He might like and respect some design proponents, so he is willing to be civil. But at the end of the day he wants ID to become just another naturalistic explanation. Then, of course, he would be willing to accept ID. But the key, the thing that ID critics can't seem to get their minds around, is that design is not primarily a mechanistic theory. It cannot be. Intelligence design flows from the intelligent agent who, by definition, has the ability to choose between contingent possibilities. Anyway, I'll try to swing back again in the next day or so to discuss any small tidbits in his message that could be taken to heart. But as a larger recommendation for where ID should go, he is wide of the mark and is missing the whole point of ID.Eric Anderson
May 17, 2014
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I think that's a superb engagement with ID and pretty much summarises my reservations about it. He is eager for more concrete proposals, and so am I. Refreshing to see. However, I'm not sure that ID just moves the problem from one place to another. It actually moves the problem from a "can't in principle be correct" place to a "could be correct but I want more details" place. That is, is does at least some explanatory work. Suppose we found a circle and somebody said, "That was drawn with a straight-edge." Another said, "No, it was drawn using some implement beyond our ken, something akin to our vague intuition about 'curves'." Would it do to simply say, "Well, I understand your scepticism about lines. But your folksy curve ideas just move the problem from one place to another"? No. Because we know the straight-edge hypothesis is inadequate. Positing a drawing tool that resonates with "intuitive ideas about curves" is preferable, even if the full-blown understanding of the compass (so to speak) lies years in the future, or permanently beyond our ability to grasp. A child's nonmathematical intuition that a circle is a continuous curve that sweeps round is better than a mathematical theory that insists it must account for circles in terms of a finite number of line segments because that's what we know the most about, that's what we prefer to believe, that's what we have educated ourselves in, and that's what we've continually promised to deliver. Evolution is in a similar position. A failed theory with an advanced specialist language, numerous interpretations, glossy metaphors and a long pedigree is supposed to be preferred over a viewpoint that only might be right, because the latter a) lacks a detailed articulation, and b) happens to be associated with personae non gratae. The details of ID need to be better articulated and argued for? Great. Then Giberson and the ID community should try. At any rate, I would dispute that ID has made no headway in this regard.Splatter
May 17, 2014
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Karl Giberson needs to do, or learn about, some human design and/or engineering. That way, he will have many of his questions answered, and he will get a sense that design is a real thing and thus feel satisfied by understanding what design involves as a process, and what it results in and thus what it explains well.andyjones
May 17, 2014
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