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What is Intelligence?

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In a previous UD discussion I started about incompleteness I made the following affirmation: intelligence and life are not computable. A commenter kindly asked me to provide justifications for my claim. Since at UD usually I try to separate different topics in different discussions, to be more focused and reader-friendly as possible, so here is my answer in a dedicated thread. My answer unavoidably implies to investigate first what intelligence is then what life is (given the latter is an effect and the former is its cause).

A premise: intelligent design theory (IDT) per se doesn’t deal with the deep nature of intelligence or the designer. For what matters in IDT intelligence and designer can be considered as source of information. All basic results of this theory hold true when in its statements we substitute “intelligence” or “designer” or “intelligent cause” with “source of information”. This makes sense because the job of IDT is limited to investigate the signs or outputs (CSI, IC …) evidencing the inputs provided by information sources. In a sense IDT focuses on effects rather than the ultimate meaning of their cause. Despite that here I will try briefly to address something of the nature of intelligence, to satisfy the commenter’s request of explanations.

Countless definitions of intelligence were provided by philosophers and scientists according to different points of view. This very fact is sign that intelligence is complex, multi-faced and controversial topic. It’s likely any of those definitions contains some truth. However among them the pragmatic definitions cover its lower aspects only. In fact to consider intelligence as a mere tool to solve practical problems means to limit the power of intelligence to the material world and lower its ontological status to modest dimensions. We will see below that quite different appears the rank of intelligence when the problem of knowledge in its highest sense is considered. On the ground of narrow pragmatism even there may be no particular controversy between an IDer and a Darwinist. An IDer can well agree with the definitions provided by evolutionists, for example, this one by Stephen Jay Gould (“The Mismeasure of Man”): “Intelligence is the ability to face [and solve] problems in an unprogrammed creative manner”. Gould also rightly added that intelligence cannot be adequately measured (causing the ire of many psychologists). Gould’s remarks about intelligence’s unprogrammability and unmeasurability might also be in relation to the previous UD post I referenced at the beginning and in a sense agree with the thesis I am going to defend here, given the relations between the concepts of measure and computation.

Before to examine a couple of definitions of intelligence I will discuss here I must clarify what I mean for computation in this context: a deterministic finite series of instructions or operations sequentially applied to a finite set of objects. Given this definition, a computation is a mechanistic process that a machine can work out. In computability theory the archetype of such machine is the so-called Turing machine (TM).

Intelligence as generator of what is incomputable

IDT shows that CSI cannot be generated by chance and necessity (randomness and laws). An algorithm (which is a generalization of law) can output only what is computable and CSI is not. The concept of intelligence as “generator of CSI” can be generalized as “generator of what is incomputable”. Obviously, needless to say, intelligence eventually can generate also what is computable (in fact what can do more can do less). Intelligence can work as a machine but a machine cannot work as intelligence. Between the two there is a non invertible relation. This is the reason why intelligence designs machines and the inverse is impossible. To consider intelligence as “generator of what is incomputable” makes sense because we know that intelligence is able for instance to develop math. Metamathematics (Gödel theorems) states that math is in general incomputable. It establishes limits to the mechanistic deducibility but doesn’t establish limits to the intelligence and creativity of mathematicians.

Now it’s straightforward to see that the generator of what is incomputable is incomputable. Let’s hypothesize that it is computable, i.e. can be generated by a TM. If this TM can generate it and in turn it can generate what is incomputable then, given that an output of an output is an output, this TM could compute what is incomputable and this is a contradiction. Since we get a contradiction the premise is untrue, then intelligence is not computable.

The Infinite Information Source (IIS)

Now let’s pass to another more demanding but more deep perspective on our topic: intelligence as interface or link between any intelligent being and what we could call the “Infinite Information Source”. IIS is an aspect of the Metaphysical Infinity (or Total Possibility) that contains all and then contains all information too. Outside IIS there is no information because there is nothing at all. The existence of the IIS is a logical inference. In fact it is common evidence that intelligent beings (humans) routinely produce new information. This production is not creation from nothingness because from nothingness nothing comes, then this information must come from a higher source than the intelligent beings themselves. In a sense never there is new information. Besides we know from our repeated experience that intelligent beings share common information (in two senses: as information they contain inside themselves and as information they know). This proves that intelligent beings share the same higher source of information.

It remains to show that this higher source (say it S) is the IIS. The demonstration is for absurdum:

(1) Let’s hypothesize that S is finite. With “finite” I mean non Infinite (i.e. “non containing all information”). As such S is different from IIS.
(2) Since S is finite let’s consider its complement set ~S containing all information not belonging to S. Obviously ~S is included into IIS.
(3) S and ~S are disjoint sets for definition.
(4) Now consider an information ‘a’ of S and an information ‘b’ of ~S.
(5) If a and b are information, also c = (a AND b) is information.
(6) The question is: c belongs to S or ~S? It cannot belong to both because they are disjoint sets.
(7) Let’s hypothesize c belongs to S. Then S contains ‘b’, contrary to #4. Then this hypothesis is untrue.
(8) From #7 we have that c must belong to ~S. Then ~S contains ‘a’, contrary to #4. Also this hypothesis is untrue.
(9) Since we have obtained a contradiction the premise #1 is false. S is IIS.

At this point we have three basic elements in the scenario: the IIS, the being and what connects them (the channel through which information passes from the former to the latter, like a stream from a source to a sink). A classic symbolism that can help to understand their relation is the Sun that creates an image on the surface of water. The Sun is the IIS, the image is the intelligent living being and the beam connecting the Sun to its image is the channel (over-individual intellect). As the Sun is the cause of its image on water (which wouldn’t exist without it) the IIS is the cause of the intelligent living being. In particular, the intersection of the beam with the plane of our layer of existence, causes at the center of the human state the arise of human soul or psyche (with all its faculties: mind, reason, consciousness, thought, free will, emotions, sentiments …). The intersections of the beam with the center of other layers of existence cause different faculties of knowledge to other non human beings. The vertical hierarchical stack of all parallel planes represents symbolically all multiple states of being. The physical body is only the last by-product, the final unproductive production in the causality chain from IIS to matter. Warning: here the Sun is only a symbol for the knowledge’s source (traditionally light was always symbol of knowledge); obviously intelligence doesn’t really come from the physical Sun and soul is not a reverberation upon physical water. I say this because in a previous discussion about thermodynamics I defended the obvious position that the Sun does not send us information, rather energy only.

IIS is eminently incomputable because it is even un-derivable from any system (and all what comes from the development of its potentialities). In fact any system F leaves outside all what is “non F”. IIS leaves outside nothing then IIS is in principle absolutely unachievable by any systematization. Continuing the Sun’s symbolism, as the beam’s light is not really different from the source’s light, so also intelligence participates of the incomputability of IIS.

The above proof evidences also another only-seemingly odd thing: the IIS is not properly composed of parts because when we, for hypothesis, divide it into parts we obtain contradictions. It is our analytic reason that divides IIS in parts, which really don’t exist distinctively in IIS because it is eminently synthetic. IIS is essentially indivisible, and this necessarily excludes any composition and entails the absolute impossibility to be conceived as composed of parts. IIS is an aspect of the Absolute and the Absolute cannot have relations whatsoever with the relative. Since IIS really has no parts, also the link and the linked being are only apparently its “parts” and at the very end are the IIS itself. As such they directly participate of the incomputability of IIS. Again we have got the same deduction.

The same conclusion is got from yet another point of view. Let’s suppose that we find a finite process outputting intelligence. At this point nobody can a priori avoid or exclude that, through its link to IIS, intelligence receives some data that the finite process is unable to output. One can express this situation by saying that intelligence is “open” to Infinity, while, to be computable, a thing must be “closed”. Its “opening” makes intelligence virtually infinite. This is only another way to state the fundamental principle of “universal intelligibility” that sounds: there is nothing of really unknowable, all things are in principle knowable. Of course there may be countless things actually unknown to an intelligent being. But this is only a de facto temporary situation not an in principio definitive destiny. Thus we see that, as I noted above, intelligence is something far more powerful and higher than a simple tool for solving practical problems, because virtually can know all. Since intelligence is virtually the knower of all what is incomputable, in turn it cannot be computable because the knower cannot be lower in rank than the known.

Given we are dealing with universal intelligibility it is necessary to clear a possible misunderstanding. To avoid it we must carefully distinguish reason and intellect. This distinction, which was well clear to most ancient philosophers, was lost at the arise of rationalism and humanism in the modern era. As someone said: “it was reason to betray intellect”. The first product of rationalism in the scientific field was Cartesian mechanicism, which is in relation with computability I deny here when applied to intelligence and life. Reason is merely an individual human faculty. It is a discursive indirect form of analytical knowledge that takes as support logic and argumentative tools. Reason cannot be universalized as is. Quite differently intellect is a higher universal faculty of direct synthetic knowledge pertaining to all states of being. This explains because with the arise of rationalism and humanism the knowledge of universal principles (as the Metaphysical Infinity) was lost: what is universal can be known only by a universal faculty. Reason is only the lower individual part of intelligence (the horizontal image), while intellect is its higher over-individual part (the vertical beam). Intellect is over-rational. Warning: over-rational is not at all irrational as some believe! The universal intelligibility makes sense only when addressed by intellect. If we remain on the plane of human reason, there is no universal intelligibility. In other words it is not reason to be omniscient and there is no such thing as universal reasonability.

The key point to focus is that all the above definitions of intelligence agree and support each other. They are consistent because represent different viewpoints of the same reality. Hence also the respective demonstrations of incomputability show the same impossibility seen from different perspectives. The above argument has corollaries. The incomputability of intelligence and its non mechanistic nature debunks once and for all any illusion of the so-called Artificial Intelligence to create real intelligence. The IIS can be considered an aspect (expressed in term of information) of the Universal Intelligence or Divine Intellect and since it is also the Source of the universe, which is a design, the symbolism of the Great Designer can be applied to it.

Life as carrier of intelligence

Now let’s consider life (specifically life of conscious living beings) and give of it the following definition: the physical carrier or support of intelligence, what allows intelligence to manifest and operate on the physical plane. If the carrier (living soul and body) were mechanistic only they could not adequately express intelligence, which is not mechanistic. It is a claim of IDT that physical signs manifest the non physical nature of intelligence. These signs (CSI, IC, etc.) are non mechanistic and what displays such signs cannot be mechanistic too. Living soul and body display such signs and then we can conclude that life is non mechanistic.

To illustrate with an example the concept, let’s consider a clear manifestation of intelligence in a living being: language. Also Noam Chomsky admits that language is structural and hardwired in its physical carrier, the brain. Language is not mechanistic: the high expressions of literature cannot be created by a machine. The classic objection of materialists to this claim is: also machines can output literature works. Machines can output texts (strings of characters), but their outputs fully lack meaning and indeed this proves that they are not true manifestation of intelligence (which is the only source of meanings). For instance, when a writer writes the four-chars word “love” he has in mind all the meanings of the idea, instead when a machine writes “love” it has nothing in mind for the simple fact that it has no mind. And here what stays in the “background” (the semantic) is more important and essential of what stays in the “foreground” (the syntax), so to speak. Moreover if a machine writes “love” it is because was programmed to do so, not because it wanted that (as a human writer does). Just a curiosity: an ancient Hebrew legend speaks of the Golem, a sort of automaton that they say Cabalists were able to vitalize by mean of esoteric rituals. The Golem was able to simulate a living being (a robot ante litteram) but it wasn’t able to speak because language is an advanced ability that only real intelligent living beings have.

Of course all that I have written here is light-years from the materialist and reductionist Darwin’s idea of “thought, being a secretion of the brain”. Modern evolutionists believe to be more sophisticated saying that “thought is emergent property of the brain”. But if we examine it their claim is not more explicative. In fact emergent properties involving information (and mind eminently implies information) don’t spontaneously “emerge” from the bottom like a secretion (as they think) but come from the top, from an intelligent source. About this topic see my previous post on emergence.

To sum up about intelligence (like many other things) we are before two diametrically opposite worldviews: the ID non materialist and the materialist (with all its consequence, evolutionism included). The former is a top-down worldview while the latter is a bottom-up approach. Non materialism states that matter itself comes from information. Materialism, at the very end, denying any higher principle than matter, believes that information arose from matter. These two opposite worldviews cannot be both true. I hope these brief notes may help some to know which of them is on the side of truth.

Comments
niwrad @ 22:
However at the very beginning I referenced the thread “The cause of incompleteness” where I relate incomputability and limitations of the universe. That article and this one are correlated and consistent.
The two articles are consistently inconsistent with regards to computability. You know the correct definition of computability, and yet you appeal to criteria that are not part of that definition when you claim that CSI, life, and intelligence are non-computable. I'm harping on the computability issue because it's so uncontroversial. Your claims are as mathematically false as 1+1=3. If we can't agreed on something as crystal clear as this, then there's no hope of progress in regards to our many other points of disagreement.
Some IDers use also the terms “functional information” or “active information” to mean CSI.
CSI is a function of an event, a specifying agent, and a chance hypothesis. Functional information is defined in terms of a configuration space, and some function manifested by at least one member of that space. Active information is a function of a targeted search and a baseline search over the same search space. One could argue that the concepts are all related, but they're certainly not synonymous.
I think what you have in mind has a lot to do with the works of Dembski and Marks at the The Evolutionary Informatics Lab:
The EIL framework has never been applied to anything in biology. To do so would require some major question-begging assumptions, so I doubt it will ever happen.
The specification is represented by its functionality. The information in bit is I = log(1/p).
CSI's complexity is the probability of the pattern T occurring under a given natural hypothesis, and that natural hypothesis is supposed to take into account "Darwinian and other material mechanisms". To equate this with a calculation based simply on genome length would require some serious justification.R0b
December 1, 2009
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To Niwrad: Could you explain what the sentence means ? The intersections of the beam with the center of other layers of existence cause different faculties of knowledge to other non human beings.Graham
December 1, 2009
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tragic mishap #31
So do humans have intelligence? If so you are implying that it must be part of the IIS because the IIS is indivisible. Therefore if humans have intelligence and the IIS is God, then humans and God are all literally one.
Excuse me tragic mishap, very sorry for having bypassed your question (I thought it were a note only). Human intelligence is a participation of the Universal Intelligence. We are intelligent only because God is pure Intelligence. Humans and all beings, beyond countless veils of ignorance and illusion, behind innumerable illusory appearances and forms, are the Supreme Being himself. The first and more serious sin of a being is existence, i.e. to believe to exist outside such Being. All beings are synthetically and indivisibly contained in this Metaphysical Unity, which is our first source, our actual host and our final destination. Without such Supreme One (where as you say "humans and God are all literally one") no universe, no beings, no intelligence, no single bit of information could exist. No doubt about that.niwrad
December 1, 2009
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Clive:
No it wouldn’t. It’s perfectly capable of continuing it’s program without regard to sheer numbers. The whole scientific world is not in any consensus on anything that is revolutionary, that’s what it means to be revolutionary.
I don't doubt your first statement - I'm sure ID is perfectly capable of continuing without large numbers in support. However, would you be satisfied if 50 years from now ID is still only accepted by a small minority of the scientific community? niwrad's comment was based on the need for more resources to continue research - how do you expect to gather those resources without greater consensus and participation? The general thrust of science is that which is first revolutionary eventually becomes mainstream and forms the basis for the next stages of research. Are you saying that ID has no interest in eventually shedding its revolutionary status and supplanting Darwin? It has no interest in becoming a foundation for biological research?mikev6
December 1, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis #29-30
My goal in finding a worked example of a CSI calculation for a real biological component is to ultimately write a software simulation of some known evolutionary mechanisms to see if they can or can’t generate CSI.
I think what you have in mind has a lot to do with the works of Dembski and Marks at the Evolutionary Informatics Lab: http://www.evoinfo.org/
The papers you reference do not use the definition from No Free Lunch. In fact, their measurements are little more than computing 2 to the power of the length of the genome under consideration. That’s nothing like how CSI is described.
Sorry but I don’t understand why you say that 2 to the power of the length n of the genomic string is nothing like CSI. It represents the complexity of the sequence (in fact the value p=1/2^n is the probability to occur). The specification is represented by its functionality. The information in bit is I = log(1/p).niwrad
December 1, 2009
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mikev6,
Why? If it’s a valid approach, the “mindset” of the investigator shouldn’t matter. If ID wants to be the basis for future advancements in biology, then it has to get the rest of the scientific world on board.
No it wouldn't. It's perfectly capable of continuing it's program without regard to sheer numbers. The whole scientific world is not in any consensus on anything that is revolutionary, that's what it means to be revolutionary.Clive Hayden
December 1, 2009
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niwrad have I totally misunderstood where you are going with this? If not then please at least comment on my primary question:
So do humans have intelligence? If so you are implying that it must be part of the IIS because the IIS is indivisible. Therefore if humans have intelligence and the IIS is God, then humans and God are all literally one.
tragic mishap
December 1, 2009
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niwrad at 27, Some IDers use also the terms "functional information" or "active information" to mean CSI. In those papers the former term is used to indicate the CSI content of proteins and genes. The papers you reference do not use the definition from No Free Lunch. In fact, their measurements are little more than computing 2 to the power of the length of the genome under consideration. That's nothing like how CSI is described. Given the evolutionary establishment strongly opposes ID what the few ID biologists can do is to investigate some basic elements of life only. Could you please point me to any published research done by these biologists where they calculate CSI, as described in No Free Lunch for an actual biological object of some sort?Mustela Nivalis
December 1, 2009
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William J. Murray at 26, Did you read the faq located near the top and to the right of the main body of the blog? I did indeed. Unfortunately, it does not provide an example of calculating CSI for an actual biological construct of any sort. It certainly doesn't follow the description of CSI in No Free Lunch. Confusingly, parts of that FAQ and the material it references talk about random walks and generation of entire genetic sequences at once. That is not at all how evolutionary mechanisms operate, which makes using CSI as an argument against modern evolutionary theory questionable, at best. My goal in finding a worked example of a CSI calculation for a real biological component is to ultimately write a software simulation of some known evolutionary mechanisms to see if they can or can't generate CSI. Without a rigorous definition and an objective means of calculating it, such a simulation is impossible.Mustela Nivalis
December 1, 2009
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niwrad said:
Similar calculations about entire biological organisms, for their complexity, would need the coordinated work of large groups of specialized biologists with an ID mindset.
Why? If it's a valid approach, the "mindset" of the investigator shouldn't matter. If ID wants to be the basis for future advancements in biology, then it has to get the rest of the scientific world on board.mikev6
December 1, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis #24 Some IDers use also the terms "functional information" or "active information" to mean CSI. In those papers the former term is used to indicate the CSI content of proteins and genes. Similar calculations about entire biological organisms, for their complexity, would need the coordinated work of large groups of specialized biologists with an ID mindset. Given the evolutionary establishment strongly opposes ID what the few ID biologists can do is to investigate some basic elements of life only. This is by the way as I, as simple ID supporter, see the actual situation of CSI research, others may have different and sure more authoritative feelings.niwrad
December 1, 2009
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Mustela, Did you read the faq located near the top and to the right of the main body of the blog? https://uncommondescent.com/faq/#csiqtyWilliam J. Murray
December 1, 2009
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Graham1 #23 Do you really believe that in the universal existence humans are the only beings able to know? Wouldn’t you find strange that the Total Possibility generated only humans? After all a poor production from Infinity! Philosophers call this kind of illusion "anthropomorphism" (to see whole reality with human "glasses" and reduce it to human limits).niwrad
December 1, 2009
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niwrad at 21, Thank you for the links, but neither of them mention Complex Specified Information, nor do they show how to calculate it for a real world biological organism or component. Do you have such a worked example?Mustela Nivalis
December 1, 2009
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The intersections of the beam with the center of other layers of existence cause different faculties of knowledge to other non human beings. Is anybody taking any of this seriously ?Graham1
December 1, 2009
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R0b #19
You seem to be conflating the limitations of Turing machines with the limitations of nature in our universe. The definition of computation that you gave says nothing about physical nature.
However at the very beginning I referenced the thread "The cause of incompleteness" where I relate incomputability and limitations of the universe. That article and this one are correlated and consistent.niwrad
December 1, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis #18 You can read for instance these docs by Kirk Durston who researches in the field of proteins from an ID viewpoint: http://www.newscholars.com/papers/Origins%20and%20Explanations.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2217542/niwrad
December 1, 2009
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First of all I personally submit that computability is actually a "synthetic action" or system of synthetic judgment to begin with- hence "no thing" is actually computable - we can however compute “about” things which he know enough about to have mathematical intuitions and formal methematical representations of. "Life" is a mysterious thing to begin with- as scientists and philosopher have trouble even agreeing on a definition of what life is. So it is a non sequitter to begin with discussions of whether life is or is not computable. What Gödel showed with his incompleteness theorems in his own words was that either there exist mathematical questions that cannot be answered or contained in formal systems- Or that the mind is more than a machine. Well this automatically ties the question of the computability of life and of consciousness or mind together- vis-vie - face to face. If mind itself is not a machine- then so much for computability- and if the mind is not computable than it is possible that we know and think of things pertaining to "life" and life forms which too are beyond computability. This is to say that life is computable only so far as it is quantitative or quantifiable (and possibly not even that far but conceded)- but as far as life is qualitative it is not necessarily computable at all. the best example is of universe regress and progress - that is dealing with the infinite nature of mathematics- which leads to the question of ultimate cause and ultimate ends- As Cantor riddled many into insanity (himself included) with his continuum hypothesis he also confined mathematics and mathematical theory (set theory) as a whole into the institution of mere practicality. The point is life and mind cannot be confined to mathematics- and hence not to computability- because mathematics itself is only a synthetic system as Kant showed- used for practical hypothesis and reasoning - and synthetic judgments are never as sound as analytical judgments and intuitions - like the existence of the color blue we see in the sky- which is manifestly more true than any mathematical speculative theorem- inherently incomplete. Asking "what is intelligence" is like asking "what is the color blue?" Outside of speculative mathematical boundaries, generalizations and ranges and theories- nothing can suffice for the phenomenological experience we have when we just intuitively "know" a priori- what intelligence just is- just like what the color blue "just is"- from our sensuous experiences- which are the combination of parts and actions but the manifest result of them. A sensuous experience just is what it is as Leibniz shews in his Monodology and the example of the mill. He says if you were to walk inside a mill which represents the inner workings of the conscious mind- you would see all of the parts moving and you would see how they relate- but you would not see consciousness or experience. They are of a separate domain. We start off with the old- "It just is what it is"- and finish with synthetic definitions which just add more detail.Frost122585
November 30, 2009
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niwrad:
The universe can be considered as a giant computer. The physical-chemical laws are the instructions this computer runs.
You seem to be conflating the limitations of Turing machines with the limitations of nature in our universe. The definition of computation that you gave says nothing about physical nature.
May be you don’t convince me but eventually you might convince other more skilled persons. Fundamental misunderstanding of concepts is serious thing and who knows better should help to understand. Why don’t you try?
We've both spilled a lot of pixels trying to convince each other. If anyone, skilled or not, disagrees with anything I've said in my discussions with you, I'll gladly try to defend my position to them.R0b
November 30, 2009
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niwrad at 16, ID theory states that these computations are unable to output the CSI found in nature. Please excuse me for asking a somewhat tangential question, but it sounds like you can answer it for me. I've read as much material as I can find regarding CSI, but I haven't yet seen an actual calculation of the CSI in a real biological system. Can you point me to an example of such?Mustela Nivalis
November 30, 2009
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William, lest we think that niwrad is using a custom definition of computation, he told us that he's using the standard definition:
Before to examine a couple of definitions of intelligence I will discuss here I must clarify what I mean for computation in this context: a deterministic finite series of instructions or operations sequentially applied to a finite set of objects. Given this definition, a computation is a mechanistic process that a machine can work out. In computability theory the archetype of such machine is the so-called Turing machine (TM).
The resources relevant to CSI are probabilistic. How are probabilistic resources relevant to deterministic computation?R0b
November 30, 2009
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R0b #14
Do you know of any other ID proponent who makes the very significant claim that CSI is non-computable?
William J. Murray in #15 has just explained very well why CSI is non-computable. The universe can be considered as a giant computer. The physical-chemical laws are the instructions this computer runs. ID theory states that these computations are unable to output the CSI found in nature. An additional information source was necessary to produce it. Any ID proponent agrees on that.
I believe that your misunderstanding of the concepts you employ is so fundamental that your arguments never get out of the starting gate. I won’t keep trying to convince you of that.
May be you don’t convince me but eventually you might convince other more skilled persons. Fundamental misunderstanding of concepts is serious thing and who knows better should help to understand. Why don’t you try?niwrad
November 30, 2009
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CSI above 500-1000 bits is claimed to be "non-computable" in the sense that it cannot be "computed" from the known resources of the universe acting according to know physical laws, chance, and the predilections of material (chemical) bonding and interaction. If the known resources of the entire universe are incapable of computing the CSI of my post here, then CSI can be stated as being "non-computable"; it must come from some apparently infinite source of information far beyond what is computable by any mechanistic means.William J. Murray
November 30, 2009
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niwrad, I believe that your misunderstanding of the concepts you employ is so fundamental that your arguments never get out of the starting gate. I won't keep trying to convince you of that, but I'm curious about something:
An algorithm (which is a generalization of law) can output only what is computable and CSI is not.
Do you know of any other ID proponent who makes the very significant claim that CSI is non-computable?R0b
November 30, 2009
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Cabal, What is, and is not, "reference to a supernatural causation"?William J. Murray
November 30, 2009
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Intelligence is that which can create counteflow. Cabal, ID does not require the supernatural. The issue is can all we observe be reduced to matter, energy, chance and necessity? And is saying that the laws that govern this physical, observable universe "just are the way they are" (Hawking), really a sound scientific explanation? Or is there a goal/ purpose?Joseph
November 30, 2009
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Isn't information just another of man's inventions; a concept enabling reference to subjective subjects? Isn't information processing what is going on in our intestine? Structures detecting other structures and acting accordingly, i.e. digestion? A fox detecting a rabbit? No information there, just a concept made by a combination of physical and chemical activities: Rabbit movement, fox chemistry.Cabal
November 30, 2009
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I find naturalism incoherent, so I would have a hard time explaining it. I guess you could say it’s a denial of creationism, however creationism is conceived.
What's incoherent about "Methodological naturalism can mean simply that science is to be done without reference to supernatural causes."? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism)Cabal
November 30, 2009
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If anyone really wants to pursue the different uses of information, and there are many, then they should listen to a Berkeley course on the history of Information. You can access this course through Itunes or through the Berkeley website. The course is given by the "I" Department or Information Department at Berkeley which once had its origins in Library Science but now includes members from several disciplines such as engineering, computers, history, law, etc. One of the claims is that the average daily edition of the New York Times contains more information then what a person who lived in the 17th century would be exposed to in their entire life time. Now how would you measure that?jerry
November 29, 2009
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"Information in what sense?" The way the entire biology community discusses it. Oh, I am sure you will find an occasional person in biology questioning it but it pervades biology. So I would ask some biology Ph.D.'s how they use it and it will be the same way that ID uses it.jerry
November 29, 2009
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