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YEC, facts and evidence

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This post was originally written as a response to Barry’s recent post; however, Barry correctly pointed out that I had significantly mis-read him – I was reading much too fast. Apologies to Barry, and to those who read the earlier version of the post. I have now re-written it to not refer to (my careless misreading of) Barry’s position. I hope it still provides something helpful.

As a YEC, when listening to opposing positions, I sometimes hear a combination of criticism of the YEC framework, combined with talk of logic and evidence as an alternative to having an interpretative framework. This is philosophically very naive. It is talk which is especially prominent amongst the New Atheist crowd. Listening to them, you get to understand that they (alone!) are the exponents of logic and evidence; everybody else is blinded by their religion (which we might call, their ‘interpretative framework’). The reality is that everybody has an interpretative framework. The only difference is the degrees to which you are a) aware of it and b) consistent with it.

As a YEC, I believe that the correct use of logic is to honour God, who is the source and ultimate, perfect, exemplification of logic. He is a God of order and structure, and wishes his creation to be orderly and structured too. God is the ultimate grounding for logic. To frame the issue in terms of “these guys have an interpretative framework… whereas I use logic and evidence” is a statement right out of the phrase-book of positivism and scientism which should have no place on the side of those of us who oppose both of those as false and busted philosophies. We all have interpretative frameworks. Logic and evidence do whatever work they do, for all of us, within one of those frameworks.

This is not to retreat into a postmodern relativism – not all frameworks are equal, and neither can we simply abandon discussion and comparison of them as if they were all equally valid, or if comparison were impossible. Frameworks can easily be fundamentally false. Someone may believe that the YEC paradigm (which is, at root, that the Bible is the final authority, and that the correct interpretation of any one part of the Bible is provided by other parts of the Bible) is false; but he cannot simply say that it is false because some pile of uninterpreted evidence proves it to be so. There is no uninterpreted evidence. This would be to make the beginner’s mistake of believing that your framework is so obviously true, that it needs no explanation – that which counts as evidence within that framework ought to be evidence for all, because, hey, it’s just evidence!

In an earlier post on UD, I provided the beginnings of an explanation as to why I embrace the framework that I, as a YEC, do. This teases out some of these issues at greater length. On the issue of starlight and time, I am not a specialist, but have written on the reasons why simplistic appeals to uninterpreted evidence do not work on my own personal blog, here.

I’d like also to note in passing that one of the most common appeals to “simple evidence” isn’t quite as simple as it seems. It’s commonly accepted that the edge of the observable universe is approximately around 45 billion light years away; whilst the age is accepted as around 15 billion light years. That’s a 30 billion year difference. The difference in those two figures is explained within the Big Bang paradigm via the expansion of the universe itself. But, when you are in a context where that paradigm itself is being disputed, an appeal to it as the basis for interpreting your evidence is viciously circular. Personally, I see no logical or philosophical problem in appealing to a sequence of unique, extraordinary and unrepeatable events in creation week, and no ultimate conceptual difference compared with appealing to a sequence of such events in the immediate aftermath of the Big Bang. The debate is not over to whether there were such events; just which ones. But keep your eyes on the ball: my point here is not to argue that this or that explanation is wrong, or that no plausible solution exists; I am not a cosmologist. Rather, it’s to point out that some kind of explanation is needed, and that explanation will need to rely on further assumptions, which may themselves be open to question. The evidence needed some interpreting, and plenty of nuance. The evidence is complex, not simple, and even in this ‘canonical’ example we can begin to see that.

Returning from that diversion to the basic and underlying issues, if you’ve got time to get your teeth into something longer, then this presentation from 6 years ago, whilst addressing a different audience, is less ad-hoc than my blog posts.

This all makes the debate more complex. Rather than being able to simply pose ‘logic/evidence versus interpretative frameworks’, you have to instead articulate more of your own framework, and to think about how to compare different frameworks, in ways that don’t simply beg the question. I don’t propose to do that now; but if we can at least consider these preliminary points, then it’ll be a good step towards mutual understanding in the camp.

Comments
@Barry... ...I read your piece a couple times, and your charity always seems very backhanded (ie..paraphrase..they may well be right, of course this isn't backed up by the evidence). My "attack" if you want to call it that isn't at you personally, I respect you very much, but like IDers get frustrated at their positions being labeled anti-science, or anti-evidence, they rarely extend that very same latitude to YEC...see Mung's statement above...no knowledge of the material, just write it off as "ad hoc". That's like saying "specified complexity" is just an "ad hoc" idea. It shows a lack of respect. For those who think that YEC are simply Bible clutching science deniers, you should give the material an honest go. You may disagree with it, but if you're intellectually honest, you'll see that its based heavily on natural observation. My YEC belief may be ultimately incorrect, but it is reasonable.Frampton71
October 24, 2013
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Jguy, I don’t think I expressed myself very well. I think we are both in agreement that an earth day is 24 hours. But why does Genesis demand an earth day to be used when creating the earth?
John 3:12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?" - NASB Question: If (somehow) it was inescapably plain to you, that it MUST be a literal earth day, would you then reject the scripture, or would you reject your uniformitarian interpretation of the evidence? Would you stop leaning on your own understanding and instead trust in God's Word? It appears the only reason you (and other OEC) think that it is figurative is that you think the scientific evidence demands long ages because you ultimately feel the uniformitarian framework is some monolithic filter of true/real knowledge. But that is not the case. Everything we humans think we know about scientific matters, is highly subject to change. So, there is no demand going on here from science, unless one is committed to uniformitarianism. To be clear, I'm not saying you are committed to as such. I'm just throwing out some ideas to ponder.
You might “feel” that it does. But why? 2 Peter 3:8, whether you feel it’s a simile or not, shows that God’s timeframe and ours is different.
I agree time has no meaning in the precense of God. But why do you feel God would give an account understood from His perspective alone? Especially, when He describes the first day as evening and morning and those two as light and darkenss. All of these combined are far more literal than figurative. This is not a feeling, this is logical reading. I suppose, if someone wants to, they can read all those as nested Russian dolls, where the dolls are even metaphors of metaphors that are metaphors of metaphors etc... They can do so, but it's not a logical reading. There are a list of other objective reasons why it should be read as a literal day. While the primary reasoning for it being figurative is trusting the human notion of an absolute uniformitarian framework.
Whether you feel that the bible reads best with 24 hour days is not really important. The truth is that none of us can go back in time and see exactly how God created the earth.
I agree. What we feel is not important. What God said is important. And if I depart from leaning on my own feelings, it reads as literal. The only reason I would move towards figurative is if I relied on my understanding outside of the bible. Answer this question. Why do you FEEL it is figurative? Well, I think you answered tht. You think it flies in the face of scientific evidence. Again. That is not the case.
So when a person dogmatically sticks to a particular rendering, that flies in the face of scientific evidence, (and it does!), that to me seems a bit silly.
I'll have to disagree with you. Overall, scientific evidence does no such thing. Even more, our ideas in science are always subject to change. God's word is not.JGuy
October 24, 2013
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I also don't see all that many threads here that are created to challenge or defend Young Earth Creationism. It's not like it's under constant attack here at UD like Darwinism and materialism are. And I don't think it's right the castigate Barry for not keeping up with the latest ad hoc add-on to the theory trying to explain why the evidence ought to be interpreted in some other way. I'm guessing that for Barry it's not so much about each bit of evidences for or against YEC so much as a recognition that the entire framework is faulty.Mung
October 24, 2013
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For some reason, I suspect that some of the people who comment on UD are not what they claim to be.Mapou
October 24, 2013
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Frampton71 @ 38: “I find B Arrington’s frequent writings regarding YECism as profoundly hypocritical . . .” And I find your comment to be representative of the strident and uncharitable attacks against their interlocutors (I would hardly say “opponent” in my case) that are, lamentably, all too typical of many in the YEC camp. In my post I took great pains to treat YECs with charity and respect. Indeed, I specifically stated that, for all I know, YECs might be right. In return I get attacked for being a hypocrite. It makes me sad.Barry Arrington
October 24, 2013
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Mapou: We were created in the image of the Elohim (the Gods) and if we need a brain to think, so do they. Where did “the Gods” get their brains?
In my opinion, some, like Yahweh, created their own brains. Others, like Lucifer and humans, were given a brain (and body) created and designed by other Gods. The skeptics will ask, how can you create your own brain if you don't exist yet? To which I will reply, spirits exist in the spiritual realm where nothing is created or destroyed. Some spirits have creative powers. Some other skeptics will retort, God has always existed and his brain is made of transcendental spirit stuff. To which I will say, phooey! The brains and bodies of the Gods are just as much physical as our brains. It's just that they are made of a different type of physical matter. And by the way, we, humans, are gods too.Mapou
October 24, 2013
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So according to God's master plan there will be seven literal one thousand year periods, the last one will last for a thousand years and Jesus will be on earth ruling from Jerusalem and Satan will be bound, and this started when? 2004?Mung
October 24, 2013
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tjguy:
Mung, if you just read your Bible, you will find the answer. God tells us very clearly exactly why He did this in Ex. 20:8-11.
Or you could avoid making unwarranted assumptions and consider that perhaps it was a rhetorical question. The point is that the Gen narrative is not a strict scientific description (just the facts ma'am), but that it is part and parcel of a much larger narrative. Do you think that God wrote down the creation account in Genesis and handed it to Adam and said here, hand this down to your kids? So we're to work six days and rest one day, just like God worked six days and rested one day. And funny how on another thread here at the same time we have another discussion of how like or unlike God human were created. Now if it had been me, I would have worked one day and taken the next off, and then worked the third day and taken the fourth day off. Or, I would have worked all seven days to meet a deadline. Good thing I'm not God or the Israelites would have been working all the time!Mung
October 24, 2013
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I find B Arrington's frequent writings regarding YECism as profoundly hypocritical. BA and UD in general constantly laments the fact that evolutionists in the media rarely present the arguments for ID accurately. Yet, every time I read BA discussing YEC I find he displays an equal ignorance of the most up-to-date arguments presented for YEC. Starlight? Read Hartnett before commenting on this topic. Incidentally, the old age of the universe also has a starlight travel problem...review the horizon problem. Hartnett presents a very reasonable solution to both along with dark matter to boot. Uniformitarianism? YEC actually look at what we see around us and realize, you know what, fossils are not forming now. Rock layers are not forming around us, they are eroding away. Blood cells really don't stay in tact for 65 million years. Strata actually can form in a short time span. It is unreasonable to ask why there are marine fossils on the tops of every mountain range in the world? Why are land creatures fossilized in close proximity to aquatic creatures? Day old lava from a Hawaiian volcano really does date at hundreds of thousands of years. Why is there carbon14 present in most all diamonds and coal? Why is there still helium in zircons? I could go on and on.. That there may be refutations to these arguments is not the point. These are all EVIDENCES from what we OBSERVE in nature, not the Bible. It would APPEAR from what we know (or should admit) about erosion, deposition, and fossilization that the world was once engulfed by a massive flood, it APPEARS that way. Even secular geologists now now admit that most all fossils could only be formed by catastrophic water-borne burial. So, while Barry points out how TEs deny what appears to be around them (design), he plays the same game, ignores that which does not fit his worldview, argue against straw men, and talk down from the "cool kids" table.Frampton71
October 24, 2013
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tjguy @28:
Mapou, how can the scriptures teach you anything if, to you, they nothing more than a research tool? How do you know when to believe what they say and when to reject what they say? Are you the judge of what is right and wrong in the Bible?
Right or wrong, I am the judge of everything I believe in. I will not allow either you or the materialists/Darwinists to make any of my religious decisions for me. It's between me and God and that's it. The scriptures have taught me stuff that none of you doctrinaires can even begin to imagine. PS. I consider YECs to be as much a hindrance or threat to my faith as the materialists. I'm sorry but I always tell it like I see it.Mapou
October 24, 2013
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In a nutshell: the earth and everything would be created in six days as observed/measured on earth. That is, six days in Earth Standard Time. ;)
That is a good point to bring up, because per special relativity, there is no universal standard time.SirHamster
October 24, 2013
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tjguy: There are countless other possibilities. You could postulate the blind spaghetti monster as a creator if you want. Sure, what you say is also a possibility – more of a possibility than the monster thing, but whether it fits with God’s Word is another thing. I really think that God expects us to believe what He tells us.
You assume you know what "God's word" is. It's useless to argue from putative scriptures until there is common ground about what is authoritative. I'm sure you and I do not agree about what constituents "God's word."
May I ask you a question? Has your view of the Bible changed at all since becoming an OECer?
I reject "the Bible" as "one book" handed down from God from "on high." I consider it a collection of writings from various authors, with various motives, and various levels of credibility. I think there are good things therein, and some downright nonsense. So, the better question to ask is, have I changed my view of the Hebrew and Christian scripture over the years. Yes, I have. But that was not the result of being a OEC. It's the other way around. My view of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures changed because of much scholarly study and soul searching. So, quite naturally, not any long accepting the Genesis story as any sort of literal creation account, I have no reason to continue to try and prop up the YEC view, which I tried to do for many years. It all makes much more sense to me now.CentralScrutinizer
October 24, 2013
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JGuy: Give an example of where evidence is objectively more consistent in an old universe uniformitarian framework.
Light coming from galaxies at that edge of our of light horizon. When we see this light, what are we seeing? Galaxies as they were 6000 years ago? See Sal's thread on this subject for more grist.
But keep in mind, you have to do so without presuming the uniformitarian framework to be objective. I think you will accept then that the framework is inescapable.
You're assuming I can't think outside the box of my accepted paradigm. I can consider different frameworks and access the evidence in those frameworks and see which is more consistent and requires less assumptions. What else can anyone do?
So, if I misunderstood you then sorry, and if by more consistent, you mean you have fewer explanations around the framework in one paradigm verus another.
More consistency, coherence, and less assumptions.
Then, how do you rationalize without being more inconsistent, that there are more natural clocks that argue for a younger earth than an older one using uniformitarian assumptions?
Which natural clocks "argue" for a younger earth? I'm sure you can find evidence that you think is more consistent with a YEC view. However, for me what's important is the consistency and coherence of all the available evidence. No paradigm is without its difficulties. But (naturally) I think the one I hold presently is the best one.CentralScrutinizer
October 24, 2013
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JGuy: This seems to reject the notion just presented in this and Barry’s blog posting. That we use an interpretive framework upon the evidence. And that evidence isn’t standing alone.
No, I don't reject Barry's main point. And it's a bit suprising that anyone would think so given what I said. I embrace it wholeheartedly. Yes, I do use an interpretive framework for assessing evidence. I changed my framework because, given all of the empirical data that I have in my possession thus far, the paradigm and framework I now hold is more consistent and requires less assumptions. It is subject to change. It has changed before and it could change again. I don't see it on the horizon, however. Some compelling new evidence would be required.CentralScrutinizer
October 24, 2013
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Mapou: We were created in the image of the Elohim (the Gods) and if we need a brain to think, so do they.
Where did "the Gods" get their brains?CentralScrutinizer
October 24, 2013
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Jguy, I don't think I expressed myself very well. I think we are both in agreement that an earth day is 24 hours. But why does Genesis demand an earth day to be used when creating the earth? You might "feel" that it does. But why? 2 Peter 3:8, whether you feel it's a simile or not, shows that God's timeframe and ours is different. Whether you feel that the bible reads best with 24 hour days is not really important. The truth is that none of us can go back in time and see exactly how God created the earth. So when a person dogmatically sticks to a particular rendering, that flies in the face of scientific evidence, (and it does!), that to me seems a bit silly.shader
October 24, 2013
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Sorry, forgot to put the first paragraph in blockquote.William J Murray
October 24, 2013
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I could go on, but it seems pretty clear that at least the biblical teaching is that yes, the Bible is infallible – in the original documents which we no longer possess. However, even though it has been copied many times, we can still be assured of extreme accuracy. An honest question from a non-Christian: why should we think that the passage in Psalms is referring to the Bible, or anything in writing that existed at the time?William J Murray
October 24, 2013
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@Mapou #14
I am a Christian and I am certainly not a poof believer. The scriptures teach me that everything was created via wisdom and understanding. IOW, an awful lot of planning went into creating the universe and life on earth. We were created in the image of the Elohim (the Gods) and if we need a brain to think, so do they. I realise there are many here who don’t believe we need our brains to think. I think that is pure unmitigated nonsense. We need both our brains and our spirits.
Mapou, how can the scriptures teach you anything if, to you, they nothing more than a research tool? How do you know when to believe what they say and when to reject what they say? Are you the judge of what is right and wrong in the Bible? Do you think God gave us a brain so we could set up ourselves as a Judge of His Word and decide what is true and false? Somehow, that's not the picture I get of God. I always thought that He is God and that He expects us to believe His Word and obey Him. And yes, sometimes it means believing even when it seems counter intuitive.
Prov. 3:5-6 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths." I would paraphrase the above like this. "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and even when what He says is hard to understand or contradicts the current in vogue scientific beliefs, do not lean on your own understanding. When God's Word is clear. Trust it. Believe it." Or how about I Cor. 1:20-25 "20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
It would seem that there are times when we need to go against the wisdom of this world. In my opinion, that would be when the wisdom of this world contradicts God's standard of truth. There have been various instances of people claiming the Bible is wrong on a particular historical or geographical point, but then later new information has come to light that verified the Bible. If you had gone with the current day in vogue wisdom of the secular world, you would have been wrong. One example is the Hittites. Archeologists used to claim the Bible is wrong because there was no evidence for the existence of these people. But then they had to eat their words when the evidence was found. Anyway, I simply choose to take God at His word, believing this is what honors Him the most and that in the end, His Word will always be found to be true. By the way, God is a spirit and has no brain, at least in a literal sense like us. Sure He planned the world, but being omniscient and all powerful, that could have been done in a tenth of a second!tjguy
October 24, 2013
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@13 Central
YEC or (blind) materialism the only options? There’s at least one other possibility, an old universe that was purposefully made, and the creation of earth and life with direct intelligent manipulation at certain points, with periods of “niche”-searching evolution by the intelligently designed system during other periods of time, all of this done over long stretches of time. An intelligently designed system, that has direct invention (miracles) on rare occasion, but otherwise proceeds (evolves) according to the rules that were setup.
There are countless other possibilities. You could postulate the blind spaghetti monster as a creator if you want. Sure, what you say is also a possibility - more of a possibility than the monster thing, but whether it fits with God's Word is another thing. I really think that God expects us to believe what He tells us. He tells us He created the whole universe in 6 days. Jesus tells us that God created the first male and female at the beginning of creation. Jesus obviously believed in the worldwide flood from his references to it. He implies that the original creation was "very good" but that later it was cursed because of Adam's sin. So there seems to have been no death before sin in spite of your interpretation of the fossil record(which YECers see as evidence for the worldwide flood). But then you used to believe all that I guess when you were a YECer. May I ask you a question? Has your view of the Bible changed at all since becoming an OECer? How have your principles of interpretation changed since becoming an OECer? It would seem like there would have to be a change in your approach to Scripture and how you interpret in order to make the change you made. (I realize this could be interpreted as me accusing OECers of having a low view of Scripture or something like that. I know many would say they believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God so please be assured, I am not insinuating that at all. I am simply asking if anything has changed for Central. For some people, unfortunately, these things do change.)tjguy
October 24, 2013
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Mapou @ 9
I say, keep searching and, eventually, you shall find.
Are you still searching to figure out if there is a God? If not, why not? If you can't trust the Bible, how do you know there is a God? And even if there is one, how can you know anything about Him? Keep searching and hopefully eventually you will find, right?
Nothing is handed down to us on a platter. If you think you already found everything you need to know, you have already failed.
Actually, there are certain things that are handed down to us on a platter. And we can find those things in the Bible, which Jesus called "truth". When you say that nothing is handed down to us on a platter, does that mean you don’t believe anything in the Bible?
Above all, worship God. Don’t worship any book. That would be idolatry.
And every single YEC would agree wholeheartedly with you on that statement! But you seem to be insinuating that simply because we believe what the Bible says we are worshipping it. Let me ask you a question. Do you think God wants us to believe His Word? Why or why not? Hint: You might want to take these verses into consideration before you answer. Speaking of Moses' writings which you seem to reject, Jesus said this in John 5:47:
"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
And this in John 14:6
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the TRUTH, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
And this in John 14:10
"Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works."
So what do you think Mapou? Does Jesus expect us to take Him at his word when He tells us that He is the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to the Father? Mapou, how would you describe worshipping a book? Have you ever seen a YECer praying to the Bible, touching it to get special power? bowing down before it and/or praying to it? It is true that we submit to it's authority and allow it to correct us, guide us, teach us, and give us wisdom. But I'm afraid that you fail to distinguish between believing the Bible and worshipping the Bible. We simply think that God expects us to take Him as His Word. Why do you interpret that as worship?
What Mapou says: The Bible is a research tool for gaining knowledge and it was written by many authors. It’s not infallible. Some of the books that should be in the Bible were excluded.
Thank you for your opinion, but please don't be offended if not everyone takes your opinion as trustworthy. Some of us prefer to take Jesus as His word.
What God says: John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.” Jesus II Tim. 3:16-17 (words of Paul inspired by the Holy Spirit) “ All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God[b] may be complete, equipped for every good work.” II Peter 1:20-21 (words of Peter inspired by the Holy Spirit) “knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.”
And how about Ps. 19:7-11?
The law of the Lord is perfect,[c] reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; 8 the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; 9 the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules[d] of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. 10 More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. 11 Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
I could go on, but it seems pretty clear that at least the biblical teaching is that yes, the Bible is infallible – in the original documents which we no longer possess. However, even though it has been copied many times, we can still be assured of extreme accuracy. You are free to believe the Bible is fallible, but then you have the very difficult job of figuring out what is true and what is not true in the Bible. If you are right, then I don’t think anyone can ever really know if anything in the Bible is trustworthy or not. If the Bible is nothing more than a research tool for gaining knowledge, it is no different than your science textbook or the Koran. In fact, it might even be less trustworthy than your science textbook. True, humans actually wrote the Bible, but if they were not inspired by God, then either they were lying about some/all of the things they wrote or they were really deceived in which case we have no idea whether anything they wrote is true. We have no standard of truth against which to compare other claims against.
Also, there are other sources of knowledge in the world. Even the Bible acknowledges that the Egyptians had accumulated a body of knowledge and that Moses was fully trained in the wisdom of the land of Egypt.
Excellent point. But a strawman because no one argues against that. The problem is, when two different sources make contradicting truth claims, how do we know which one is right? Sometimes there are ways to figure it out if the claims can be tested, but if they cannot be tested, then how do we know? We don’t. That is where the Bible comes in. It is the standard against which we measure all truth claims. So when Muslims tell us that Allah is God and that Jesus never really died on the cross, we reject that claim because it does not measure up to the truth of God's Word. God's Word is our standard. By the way, Moses may have been trained in the wisdom of Egypt, but no one claims that wisdom is authoritative or trustworthy. He was simply trained in the “wisdom” of that time, some of which I’m sure was both true and false. It is interesting that Moses rejected much of that wisdom in his writing of the law. Why? Because God revealed His truth to him through the Holy Spirit.tjguy
October 24, 2013
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Mung @ 7
I don’t understand why it took God six days. Couldn’t he have just said “let it be so” and “poof” there everything was all at one instant?
Yes. So... I wouldn't say "it took God six days" I would say "God used six days"... The answer is simple. It serves as a model for us. It's even been argued that people live best with a seven day week. Some nations have even tried five day weeks, six day weeks or ten day weeks. But they are back to seven day weeks.JGuy
October 24, 2013
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@ Mung #7
I don’t understand why it took God six days. Couldn’t he have just said “let it be so” and “poof” there everything was all at one instant?
Mung, if you just read your Bible, you will find the answer. God tells us very clearly exactly why He did this in Ex. 20:8-11. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." We all know where we get the concept of a year, a day, and a month, but there is no basis in astronomy for our concept of 7 days = a week. Ex. 20 tells us why we have a 7 day week and thus why God took 6 days to create the universe when He could have, like you said, created it all in an instant.tjguy
October 24, 2013
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Mapou @ 4
There is evidence within scriptures that the Genesis creation story and the account of Adam and Eve are at least partially metaphorical. For example, the book of Revelation, an obviously metaphorical treatise, uses some of the same metaphors:
There is quantitative evidence that Genesis creation account is more of a historical narrative: http://www.icr.org/article/24/ But my personal opinion on figurative and literal views is different. I think that some things are BOTH literal and figurative. For example, I believe the sun (used to give light to the earth) created on the fourth day is literal. But I personally think it is ALSO a metaphor of Jesus (the light to the world) appearing four thousand years after creation week. Seeing that God uses redundant/overlapping techniques with information in the genome, I consider finding multiple non-contradictory messages as simply a characteristic of the same Creator. Consider it as a forensic type of fingerprint. ;)JGuy
October 24, 2013
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p.s. I wrote "And most of the clocks the young earthers use are using better understood process. Processes that we can manipulate and experiment with in labs much easier than we can with the nature of light speed in deep space and in the unobservable past(for example)." To be clear. YEC don't think of these as actual "clocks". They are described as "clocks" to show how the old earth view has inconsistencies using it's guiding uniformitarian framework. And my point above was that there are scientific principles & physical process that are very well understood or understandable. Such as macroscopic physics descriable with Newton's Laws or basic chemistry, such as diffusion rates of gases or erosion rates of earth by water. And then there are those that are not understood as well, such as the speed of light in the past and in deep space, or the subatomic mechanisms of radioactive decay. From applying uniformitarian framework to physical processes as "clocks": The YEC model has DOZENS (if not hundreds) of BETTER UNDERSTOOD "clocks" refuting an old earth view. The OEC model has a COUPLE of the LESSER UNDERSTOOD "clocks" refuting a young earth view. From this, if I were to choose the paradigm that had the fewest "scientific problems", the obvious choice would be the young earth model.JGuy
October 24, 2013
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Shader @ 3
In the end, what is the point in being a YEC? The bible doesn’t require that the Genesis “days” are 24 hours long. I’ve met many YEC’s who believe that day 4 is when the actual sun was created.
I'm one of those.
Yet what is a day? A day is the length of time it takes for the earth to rotate a full revolution, and logically requires the sun for this measurement.
An earth day only requires rotation, and perhaps a source of light. But even by that stricter definition, light already existed from the start. Recall on day 1: Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Why would God measure his day by the arbitrary 24 hour day of the earth itself? The very object he was creating?
From that perspective, any number or concept would be just as arbitrary. An earth day would have to be some period of time. And we divide it into 24 hours. You can call it 100 hours if you like, just redefine the hour to mean about 15 minutes. Read the first few versus of Genesis chapter 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day." - NASB Note the key verse 5. After light was already created on this first day: Light is called Day. Darkness is called Night. Then it says in the same verse, the evening and morning are day one. It doesn't get much clearer than that. If one thinks 'day one' is some metaphor for millions or billions of years, then he/she MUST conclude that the terms evening and morning are each metaphors for day and night. And even more awkwardly, that the use of day and night here are also metaphors, but for light and darkness. One question: Are light and darkness, the result from God separating the light from darkness, also such metaphors? And then the light itself is a metaphor? But for what? So, you end up with a metaphors that are metaphors of metaphors, that are metaphors of other metaphors that are divided up from a original metaphor of something that isn't described. Awkward isn't it? But, if light means literally light. Then all those words that follow logically indicate a literal earth day.
The universe is full of planets and stars. Why would a day to God be the amount of time it takes for one of those planets to revolve around the sun?
You mean rotate on it's axis. First answer the question. Why would it be a problem for humans if God said that is what a day is?
Sure, when he gave commands to humans, and used days, he used human days. But in the creation account, there were no humans. God sitting in a completely different realm as the physical earth and sun…why would he take 6 24-hour earth days to create the entire universe?
Why would God take 15 billion years to create the universe? Does He NEED that time? No. God is eternal/timeless. Did God have to give a revelation how the universe was created? No. Then why? I think a simple answer is for human benefit. To know. And why six days? Because He established how WE should live. It serves as a model for us, not because it was a constraint upon God. God could have created everything instantaneously! Also, I have a hypothesis that I have some softness for, in that the six days act as a model/map of all time... but I would not teach that as biblical, just moreso an opinion that is reasonably possible given a creation week.
Now is this possible? I suppose. But why force something that isn’t required. Why force a reading in the text that seems to fly in the face of all scientific and logical evidence?
But it reads best this way, imo, and it actually doesn't fly in the face of logic or scientific evidence. I think Barry in the other blog article and the author of this above article already established that point solidly enough. Explain this in the old earth view: http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/41/41_1/Helium.htm If you can not. Then you must explain it away in the old earth view. By doing so, you would then be inconsistent with the uniformitarian framework. There are many examples like this one where the old earth framework will have to explain away why the uniformitarian appaorch was wrong. But they are complicated expalanations. Much more complicated on a much simpler and better understood process (e.g. gas diffusion rates), than the explanation young earthers give about a much more complex and less understood process (the nature of light speed and radioactive decay). And most of the clocks the young earthers use are using better understood process. Processes that we can manipulate and experiment with in labs much easier than we can with the nature of light speed in deep space and in the unobservable past(for example).JGuy
October 24, 2013
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*correction to previous post : I think it’s important to keep in mind that that God gave *the Bible* to us. Humans.JourneytotheLight
October 24, 2013
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I think it's important to keep in mind that that God gave to us. Humans. He did not write the book for Himself, in which case it might make sense that 1 day might not be what he know as 1 day, IE 24 hours, 1 revolution of the earth etc. I think standard rules of interpretation are also important. Best way I have to describe this is with an example : If I ask you for a cup of coffee, you are not going to interpret that I am asking for a cup made of coffee beans, I am asking for a drink. "All that I have seen and all that has been revealed to me, teaches me to trust the Creator for all that I have not seen" - Source unknown.JourneytotheLight
October 24, 2013
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p.s. CentralScrutinizer You used the term "old universe paradigm". I'd like to add that I personally prefer the terms 'old earth' and 'young earth' creationists. For the following reason: In a young earth creationist view, it is actually possible to have an old universe.... refer to White Hole Cosmology. In a nutshell: the earth and everything would be created in six days as observed/measured on earth. That is, six days in Earth Standard Time. ;)JGuy
October 24, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer @ 1
I find Barry’s and your post interesting. I was formerly a YEC and am a YEC no longer. So I know what it’s like to be one, and not be one. And how it was like to shift from one paradigm to another in my view of the universe.
I was formerly a OEC and am no longer. So, I too, know what it's like to shift from one paradigm to the other. :)
An old universe paradigm seems to be more consistent given the evidence.
This seems to reject the notion just presented in this and Barry's blog posting. That we use an interpretive framework upon the evidence. And that evidence isn't standing alone. Give an example of where evidence is objectively more consistent in an old universe uniformitarian framework. But keep in mind, you have to do so without presuming the uniformitarian framework to be objective. I think you will accept then that the framework is inescapable. So, if I misunderstood you then sorry, and if by more consistent, you mean you have fewer explanations around the framework in one paradigm verus another. Then, how do you rationalize without being more inconsistent, that there are more natural clocks that argue for a younger earth than an older one using uniformitarian assumptions? This would indicate actually less consistency in an old earth uniformitarian view, than having a young earth view where there are far fewer 'uniformitarian interpretations' of evidence. And in terms of which framework is more or less consistent, there is no other kind of evidence that really distinguishes the two paradigms in a scientific sense than age of the earth. So, in the only area that scientific differences counts - uniformitairan "ages" - the young earth creationist paradigm is actually the more consistent paradigm! ;) You're welcome back to the YEC camp - in welcoming arms -anytime brother man. You shifted once... :DJGuy
October 24, 2013
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