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Is ET going to Hell?

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I can’t rest till I find out.

According to apologist Mark Riser,

I read an article not too long ago by Ken Ham, President of Answers in Genesis. In the article, Ham decried the amount of money that has been spent on the search for extraterrestrial life. Then, he made a statement which catapulted him into controversy, “Only descendants of Adam can be saved…To suggest that aliens could respond to the gospel is just totally wrong.”

We can agree with Ham that the search for alien life has been fruitless up to this point. But, it is necessary to say that we, as Christians, should not get into needless controversies such as whether aliens can be saved or not. Ken Ham did say that “the Bible doesn’t say whether there is or is not animal or plant life in outer space.” He should have stuck with that. To go further than that is unfounded speculation.

Ham article here.

Not a controversy we’ll get involved in. Just a note: The 20th century’s best-known apologist in English, C.S. Lewis had this to say about such matters:

Each new discovery, even every new theory, is held at first to have the most wide-reaching theological and philosophical consequences. It is seized by unbelievers as the basis for a new attack on Christianity; it is often, and more embarrassingly, seized by injudicious believers as the basis for a new defense.

But usually, when the popular hubbub has subsided and the novelty has been chewed over by real theologians, real scientists and real philosophers, both sides find themselves pretty much where they were before. So it was with Copernican astronomy, with Darwinism, with Biblical Criticism, with the new psychology. So, I cannot help expecting, it will be with the discovery of “life on other planets” – if that discovery is ever made.

He also offered a number of other sourced qualifications, including:

3) If there are species, and they are rational species with a spiritual sense, are any or all of them – like us – fallen? (p. 86). God’s activity on behalf of humanity implies not our merit or excellence, but our demerit and depravity: “No creature that deserved Redemption would need to be redeemed” (p. 86). Perhaps the beings we encounter would not have fallen so far as humanity has.

4) If all of them or any of them have fallen, have they been denied Redemption by Christ? (p. 86). If they exist (which is still hypothetical at this point), perhaps Christ has already been incarnate their world and provided salvation to them. Or perhaps, of all other created species it is only we who fell.

File:A small cup of coffee.JPG Rats. Now we are into serious theology. All the fun has gone out of the question. – O’Leary for News

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42 Replies to “Is ET going to Hell?

  1. 1
    fossil says:

    An interesting question that is too tempting not to comment on. If we assume that angels are extraterrestrials, that is, not of the creation mentioned in Genesis which I believe is a valid assumption to make and that according to the Bible a significant number of them sided with Satan and therefore will be consigned to hell in the not too distant future (Mat 25:41) then the answer to the question is obvious. But for the sake argument let us consider the text where God questions Job, “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7 NKJV). Question, were there sons of God shouting for joy over the creation of earth when it was formed? Or suppose we ask the question where the meeting took place described in Job 1:6-7? Was it on earth? I think the answer Satan gives betrays the location for if it were on earth he would have been more actuate than to simply say, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it” (Job 1:7 NKJV). It seems to me to be presented as a remote place from the place of meeting rather than a local one.

    Then there is the age old question of where Heaven is which is thought of in a wide variety of different ways but for me it seems that the Bible pictures it as a real place that is separate from earth; a place where Jesus went to at His ascension (Acts 1:9-10) and that which He spoke of as having substance (Jn 14:2-3).

    Now as to whether or not SETI will ever find intelligent life out there – I don’t think so. After all, who in his right mind would want to have anything to do with us who can’t even get along with our next door neighbor? Besides our current technology doesn’t allow us to detect anything much more than radio signals beyond a rather close region of our galaxy and with billions of galaxies that is a very small set of possibilities to check out.

  2. 2
    Moose Dr says:

    Larry Norman in “UFO”:
    and if there’s life on other planets
    then I’m sure that He must know
    and He’s been there once already
    and has died to save their souls

    I am sure that there will be no theological issues if we find animal-type life on other planets. I am sure that there will be no theological issues if we find beings on other planets that are as spiritually complete as we are, but are not fallen into sin. I am sure that there will be no theological issue if we find that Larry Norman is right. There is lots and lots of room for extra-terrestrial life in Christendom.

    I personally would find it surprising that the God of life would make life happen on only one planet.

  3. 3
    Mapou says:

    Only 1/3 of the angels have fallen compared to 100% of the humans. So Satan keeps accusing us of being liars, adulterers, murderers and fornicators but he forgot one thing. In the eyes of God, we look good, good enough to die for.

  4. 4
    KRock says:

    Personally, I think we should actually find alien life before tackling the question as to whether or not ET’s are Heaven, or Hell bound.

    I don’t doubt that the UFO phenomena exists, as there is far to much evidence suggesting that it does, I just don’t think the phenomena is attributed to space aliens…

  5. 5
    Mapou says:

    I forgot to say: ET is definitely going to hell. LOL. Why? Because he disobeyed the first commandment. ET is too advanced not to be an atheist, no?

  6. 6
    VunderGuy says:

    “After all, who in his right mind would want to have anything to do with us who can’t even get along with our next door neighbor?”

    Wow, and here I thought only atheists were capable of really petty and naive and quite frankly, really stupid moralizing and assumptions.

    Stay classy ya old fossil.:P

  7. 7
    Dionisio says:

    Here’s one possible reason why SETI is a waste of resources that could be reassigned to more beneficial activities like biomedical research:
    I remember back in 1983 ET visited our planet, but apparently some of our fellow humans mistreated him so badly that the poor thing could not take it anymore and decided to phone home and tell his relatives to come pick him up.
    Now, after we messed it up so badly, we want to contact them again? What for? To apologize for the bad treatment they received from our fellow humans? Why would they want to come back?
    Oh, well. There we go again…
    😉

  8. 8
    fossil says:

    I agree with both Moose Dr and KRock. I will further say that I think it is a mistake for Christians to think that we are the only ones God ever created and that in the end it will most likely be their unraveling.

    Concerning UFOs, I also think they are real but I also at the same time believe that there is an antagonist that would dearly love for us to believe what he wants us to believe and let’s face it, the description of Christ’s second coming in the Bible is very similar to how Hollywood depicts alien invasions. I therefore, think that we are being primed to reject the greatest event that this world will ever see and unfortunately many Christians who swallow atheist philosophy will probably be among those who say, “to the mountains and rocks, ‘Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb’” (Rev 6:16 NKJV). To most that event will be terrifying because they failed to believe in what was obvious and believed the lie instead (2 Thess 2:9-12; Rom 1:19-19).

    And VunderGuy I wasn’t directing my comment to atheists who out rightly reject anything that even sounds like religion. Believe what you want but don’t condemn me for mine.

  9. 9
    joejmz says:

    My personal opinion is that we can’t use the Bible to address the issue of the existence of ET intelligence (ETi) much less the spiritual/eternal situation of any ETi. The Bible seems to be God’s communication with MAN and limits itself to man’s relationship with God. We can’t use the fact that ETi is not addressed to eliminate the existence of ETi much the same as the fact that I don’t address his sister in an email to my son living in Austin can be used as proof that she does not exist.

    Could God have created intelligent life in a galaxy far away? Could this ETi also have it’s version of Adam and Eve? Could this Adam have refused to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Could this Adam, instead of hiding and then blaming Eve and even God, have taken responsibility for his actions?

    Given that Scripture does not address the question and that at this time we do not have enough (any?) data/evidence to support the existence of ETi all we can do is exercise our imaginations.

  10. 10
    Mapou says:

    My personal opinion is that we can’t use the Bible to address the issue of the existence of ET intelligence (ETi) much less the spiritual/eternal situation of any ETi. The Bible seems to be God’s communication with MAN and limits itself to man’s relationship with God. We can’t use the fact that ETi is not addressed to eliminate the existence of ETi much the same as the fact that I don’t address his sister in an email to my son living in Austin can be used as proof that she does not exist.

    I fully disagree with this. If anything, I would say that the Bible talks about nothing but ETI and their relationship with humans. We read about the gods of Egypt and Babylon and other nations, not to mention the Elohim (Yahweh is an alien too), the angels and the demons. The Bible even teaches us that, behind the scenes, there an alien named Lucifer who calls the shots in the world.

  11. 11
    joejmz says:

    I fully disagree with this. If anything, I would say that the Bible talks about nothing but ETI and their relationship with humans. We read about the gods of Egypt and Babylon and other nations, not to mention the Elohim (Yahweh is an alien too), the angels and the demons. The Bible even teaches us that, behind the scenes, there an alien named Lucifer who calls the shots in the world.

    I guess I should have specified ETi’s OTHER THAN angelic beings and God The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

  12. 12
    fossil says:

    Mapou and joejmz I am somewhere between both of you. I do agree that the Bible is not a science text or a history book but it does give enough information for us to understand our relationship to the rest of the universe and the mess we find ourselves in. I also think the philosophy that is imbedded in it is at very least as good as what atheistic materialism has and in my opinion is on a much higher level.

  13. 13
    joejmz says:

    …it does give enough information for us to understand our relationship to the rest of the universe and the mess we find ourselves in. I also think the philosophy that is imbedded in it is at very least as good as what atheistic materialism has and in my opinion is on a much higher level.

    fossil, I completly agree with you.

    My point really addresses only ETi who, like humans, were created with the ability to choose and with the inherent need for salvation that would come with this ability. I don’t think there is anything in Scripture that could be used to either confirm or deny the existence of such beings.

  14. 14
    anthropic says:

    Assume that God created other rational beings living on other worlds.

    If they are not corrupt, would God allow us to contact them?

    If we did contact them, would we play the role of the serpent in Genesis?

    Many years ago I thought about writing a short story along these lines. Of course, this is entirely speculative, but fun nonetheless.

  15. 15
    joejmz says:

    anthropic, those sound like interesting speculations.

    When I was in high school I read a short scifi story that mirrored the story of Adam and Eve up until God confronted the man and woman after eating the fruit, and the man and woman admit their fault and assume responsibility, at which point God joyously congratulates them and welcomes them into eternity as He reflects on all of the other failed attempts. Other than the fact that this story assumes God made a mistake in creating Adam and Eve I thought this story asked an interesting question and I have often speculated on what life on Earth would have been like if Adam had taken responsibility instead of passing the buck to both Eve (for having given him the fruit) and even God (for having given him the woman who gave him the fruit).

  16. 16
    VunderGuy says:

    “And VunderGuy I wasn’t directing my comment to atheists who out rightly reject anything that even sounds like religion. Believe what you want but don’t condemn me for mine.”

    Making the assumption that I was attacking your views on ET’s existence? Someone lacks reading comprehension.

  17. 17
    Eric Anderson says:

    OK, forget for a minute the angels and the “hosts of heaven” who have fallen. Let’s talk about finding a bona-fide intelligent extraterrestrial living on another planet outside our solar system. The kind of extraterrestrial Ken Ham is talking about. Let’s even posit — a la Michael Denton (or Gene Roddenberry, take your pick) — that such an extraterrestrial is noticeably similar to us.

    Why, pray tell, would anyone think that such an extraterrestrial would be incapable of responding to the Gospel? Is there something in Ken Ham’s Bible to suggest that such an intelligent being would be excluded; and if so, on what grounds?

    More fundamentally, what is the philosophical or doctrinal basis for the idea (one that seems always just under the current here with News) that intelligent extraterrestrial life is unlikely? And why in the world (pun intended) would someone who worships God as the all-powerful creator of the entire known universe think that such a Being is limited to creating just one inhabited world in all of that universe?

  18. 18
    fossil says:

    Ok, suppose that intelligent beings somewhere else are at least as intelligent as we are and probably more advanced technologically. If they choose not to be discovered do we have the ability to detect them in spite of their choice?

  19. 19
    anthropic says:

    EA 17, I think that many in the ID camp believe that if intelligent extraterrestrial races exist, especially in large numbers, this would show that unguided natural processes can indeed create intelligent complex life.

    I’m not defending that belief, because I think it would equally likely reinforce the need for intelligence. After all, it is harder to create multiple complex high tech life forms against staggering odds than just one. 🙂

    Joe 15, you ask one of the great counterfactual questions of all time. My impression is that “in the day you eat it you shall surely die” meant, among other things, the introduction of shame & separation from God and each other. Thus, IMHO, there was little or no chance of Adam “manning up.” He was too ashamed to even think of doing so.

    Interestingly, the apostle Paul indicates that Eve was deceived, but Adam was not. There is also the implication that Adam was close by when Eve was deceived, but so far as we know he did not intervene.

    Two speculations: First, the fruit was not in itself evil, and may well have been something mankind could partake when they were ready for it. Just like sex is good within marriage, but wrong outside it.

    Second, I don’t think this was Adam & Eve’s first conversation with the serpent.

    Again, pure speculation. But I disagree with the Mormon doctrine that Adam did right to join Eve in rebellion; there is not a hint of such an idea in the scriptures.

  20. 20
    joejmz says:

    ant 19 (I like your addressing method BTW), I have also come to think that there was nothing particularly “magical” regarding the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, that what made it special was God’s specific prohibition and that the effects of eating the fruit were the same ones each and everyone of us experiences that first time we consciously and willfully disobey Mom or Dad. I also understand that as an omniscient being, God knew Adam and Eve would disobey. I believe God’s purpose for Creation requires that man exercise his ability to make choices to disobey Him because that is the ONLY way to know that we really do have the ability to make choices. I also believe that a further purpose of Creation is for us to experience the effects of our choices AND the choices others make. It is my opinion that those of us who walk into eternity having accepted God’s gift of grace will retain our ability to choose, but that it will now be perfectly informed with a clear, complete, and personal understanding of how terrible and pervasive the effects of making choices are and that we will consciously and willfully make choices that are in unity with God’s will. I agree that Adam was not deceived, he consciously and willfully chose to disobey, which is why Scripture teaches that sin came into the world through Adam, not through Eve. However, I don’t think any of this precludes the “validity” of speculating that instead of hiding and then shifting blame, Adam could have owned up to his actions.

  21. 21
    Eric Anderson says:

    anthropic @19:

    EA 17, I think that many in the ID camp believe that if intelligent extraterrestrial races exist, especially in large numbers, this would show that unguided natural processes can indeed create intelligent complex life.

    That would be an incredibly foolish position to take. Anyone who thinks that hasn’t thought through the issue carefully. (I know you aren’t taking that position, just mentioning it.)

    How many forms of complex life are found on the Earth? If we discover another complex form does that mean that suddenly we have to conclude all the others were formed by purely natural processes? Of course not.

    Based on what I’ve seen, the resistance to extraterrestrials seems sometimes based partly on some questionable religious and scriptural interpretations, including the unsupported idea that Genesis is attempting to describe all of creation in the whole universe, rather than being more limited in scope. And even then, one has to really stretch the wording to come to come up with anything even approaching the idea that we are alone in the universe.

    —–

    Again, pure speculation. But I disagree with the Mormon doctrine that Adam did right to join Eve in rebellion; there is not a hint of such an idea in the scriptures.

    If I might, perhaps there is an important nuance of the Mormon position that bears consideration. As I understand it, the Mormon position is that both Adam and Eve transgressed by partaking of the forbidden fruit. That transgression is what allowed them to be cast out of the Garden of Eden. That is quite similar to what most other Christians think. The important nuance comes in whether this was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing. The Mormon view is that the Fall was a necessary part of God’s plan. Thus, despite the difficulties and challenges and sorrows of life, the Fall is not regarded by Mormons as some unspeakable tragedy that should never have occurred,* but rather as a necessary and important part of the greater drama of mortality.

    And, yes, there are plenty of hints of that in scripture, including the very reference you made to Paul’s statement that Adam was not deceived.

    Furthermore, as to your specific question about whether Adam “did right” by partaking of the fruit, we should not dismiss the additional nuance about choosing a lesser “evil” — or, to state it positively, choosing one good thing over another good thing. This kind of situation comes up all the time in our lives. For example when my wife was in labor and needed to get to the hospital at 2:00 a.m. many years ago, we made a conscious decision to speed down the lonely highway over the speed limit. Was it “wrong” to drive over the speed limit? Yes. But did we do the “right” thing? I’m convinced that we did. I am not trivializing Adam’s decision with my example, but my point is that it is very easy to see Adam in a situation in which he had to transgress or disobey one command in service of the higher good.

    You might check this out, if interested:

    http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/c.....4391/rec/1

    Original Sin is a separate, but closely related, concept for another time.

    —–

    * As though the God of the universe would be so clumsy as to inadvertently let little old Adam and Eve throw off His whole purpose and intent — now that would be a silly doctrine!

  22. 22
    Eric Anderson says:

    joejmz @20:

    Just saw your comment after I posted mine. Good thoughts.

  23. 23
    Joe says:

    IF ET comes here we could take them to Detroit and show them what hell looks like…

    🙂

  24. 24
    Vishnu says:

    Find an ET, and let’s have a look at him, then I’ll tell you if he’s going to hell or not.

    Seriously, sorry to pop the fundamentalists’ bubbles out there, but hell as some burning place was never part of the Hebrew faith system until the Jews brought the idea back with them when they were released from Babylonian captivity, where it then became a feature of apocalypticism of the “inter-testimental” period.

    Hell is a crock. No self-respecting God would create it and throw anyone into it forever.

  25. 25
    Mapou says:

    Vishnu @24,

    I agree. Hell is total BS. And it’s not just in fundamentalist Christianity. It’s has been a part of Catholicism from the beginning.

    But ET deserves nothing but pain and suffering. 😀

  26. 26
    Eric Anderson says:

    Vishnu @24:

    No self-respecting God would create [hell] and throw anyone into it forever.

    Well, we have 4 options it seems:

    1. There is no such thing as hell, notwithstanding the numerous references to it in scripture (including by Christ himself). It is just made up nonsense.

    2. Hell exists, but it is different than the traditional “fire and brimstone, physical pain forever, endless torment” kind of idea.

    3. One’s conception of God’s character (and therefore what a “self-respecting God” would or would not do) is off.

    4. Hell exists (in the traditional sense or otherwise), but it isn’t God who is creating it or throwing anyone into it; maybe God has little to no control over who goes to Hell; maybe His job is just to warn us about it and to try to help us avoid it.

    —–

    The last three aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, and separately or together are adequate to cover the logical possibilities.

  27. 27
    anthropic says:

    EA 21, good discussion. Where we differ is on the notion that there was anything good or necessary in Adam’s decision to disobey God.

    When I was a child and my mom told me not to eat the pie she’d just made because she’s saving it for dinner, I could freely choose to obey, or to disobey. I did not have to disobey in order to show I had free will, or to establish my free will. Indeed, by disobeying I actually lost freedom, since I would be be confined to my room, lectured, and possibly spanked.

    So far as I can see, every evil in the world, including death, fear, child abuse, and disease, is attributed in the scriptures to Adam’s disobedience.

    V 24, Jesus spoke a lot more about hell than he did heaven, probably because he wanted people to understand what eternity without God (and other people — there are no instances of people associating with each other in hell, whereas this is common in heaven) would be like. The flames may be a metaphor, as burning was common in the Gehenna valley where trash was discarded. And scriptures indicate that hell was built for satan & his angels, not for humans.

    Still, hell is monument to human significance. If we reject God, He will not force us to be with Him against our will. As I think C S Lewis remarked, the door to hell is locked on the inside.

  28. 28
    Mapou says:

    That whole hell business is a pagan idea. Even Muslims have their version of heaven and hell. Personally, I think it’s the work of the devil. 🙂 The wages of sin is death. Period. References to eternal hell either in the Bible or other religious literature are all highly suspicious, IMO. Throughout the centuries, these doctrines have served the interests of some corrupt organized church or other.

  29. 29
    Eric Anderson says:

    Mapou @28:

    Personally, I think it’s the work of the devil.

    LOL!

    The wages of sin is death. Period. References to eternal hell either in the Bible or other religious literature are all highly suspicious, IMO.

    Interesting. So you reject a concept that is taught regularly and repeatedly in Scripture, in exchange for a statement that is clearly a metaphor and is mentioned, what — once or perhaps twice?

  30. 30
    Mapou says:

    Anderson:

    Interesting. So you reject a concept that is taught regularly and repeatedly in Scripture, in exchange for a statement that is clearly a metaphor and is mentioned, what — once or perhaps twice?

    I reject a lot of crap in scripture. I worship God, not the Bible. To claim that the Bible is infallible is idolatry, IMO. That said, the Bible remains my main source of knowledge about God. I am a Christian but I don’t trust any of the teachings of Christianity over the last two thousand years. Corrupt Church leaders had their filthy hands in everything, especially the books of the New Testament. The only new testament book that they did not corrupt, IMO, is the book of Revelation, and only because they have absolutely zero clue as to what it’s about. Still, they found ways to misrepresent it for their own evil purposes. They could not mess with the books of the Old Testament only because the Jews would not allow it.

  31. 31
    Vishnu says:

    The Bible is demonstrably largely a load of bovine scabala…

    BUT…

    That doesn’t mean there isn’t a Creator.

    The evidence points quite favorably towards a Creator.

    (Not to mention person experience)

    Can I get a witness?

  32. 32
    Vishnu says:

    I like you Mapou…

    What are you doing for lunch?

  33. 33
    bornagain77 says:

    Actually, contrary to what liberal theologians and Darwinists believe, the Bible is far more trustworthy than many people realize,,,

    How Reliable Is the New Testament? – Dr. Daniel Wallace (16:30 minute mark of video “The New Testament has an ‘embarrassment of riches’ compared to other ancient texts”) – video (of note: Dr. Wallace publicly debated Bart Ehrman 3 times)
    http://www.watermark.org/media.....ment/2305/

    The reliability of the New Testament compared to other ancient texts – graph
    http://visualunit.files.wordpr.....ility1.jpg

    Who Wrote the Gospels? – Dr. Timothy McGrew – Week 1 – video
    https://vimeo.com/57485839

    The Gospels as History: External Evidence – Dr. Timothy McGrew – video
    https://vimeo.com/58486762

    The Gospels as History: Internal Evidence – Dr. Timothy McGrew – video
    https://vimeo.com/59012954

    Alleged Historic Errors in the Gospels – Dr. Timothy McGrew – video
    https://vimeo.com/59608577

    Alleged Contradictions in the Gospels – Dr. Timothy McGrew – video
    https://vimeo.com/59940602

    Undesigned Coincidences (evidence for the historicity of the Gospels) – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVLeC5HbSQ

  34. 34
    bornagain77 says:

    The Bible was unique in its prediction for the creation of the universe,,,

    among all the ‘holy’ books, of all the major religions in the world, only the Holy Bible was correct in its claim for a transcendent origin of the universe. Some later ‘holy’ books, such as the Mormon text “Pearl of Great Price” and the Qur’an, copy the concept of a transcendent origin from the Bible but also include teachings that are inconsistent with that now established fact. (Hugh Ross; Why The Universe Is The Way It Is; Pg. 228; Chpt.9; note 5)

    The Uniqueness Of The Bible Among ‘holy books’ and Evidence of God in Creation (Hugh Ross) – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjYSz1OYG8Y

    The Most Important Verse in the Bible – Prager University – video
    http://www.prageruniversity.co.....Bible.html

    The Uniqueness of Genesis 1:1 – William Lane Craig – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBXdQCkISo0

    ‘Let There Be Light’ should actually be translated ‘Be Light!’. In other words, it was not a request.
    Hebrew Essentials with Danny Ben-Gigi – video
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=norscAfZcPg

  35. 35
    bornagain77 says:

    The Bible has been confirmed by stunning archeological discoveries,,,

    The Search for the Real Mount Sinai – video
    Description: Biblical explorer Bob Cornuke and his friend, Larry Williams’ incredible expedition into the blistering desert of Saudi Arabia has turned up what many scholars believe to be one of the greatest discoveries in history…the real Mount Sinai.
    https://vimeo.com/61087314

    Archaeological and historical articles dealing with the validity of the Exodus-Conquest narratives of the Old Testament, circa 1500-1350 B.C.
    http://www.biblearchaeology.or.....quest.aspx

    Here is a small portion of the video footage showing the coral encrusted remains of Egyptian chariots in the Red Sea at the proposed Nuweiba crossing,,, Seems the Charlton Heston depiction in the movie, ‘The Ten Commandments’, was not that far off the mark of what really happened after all!

    THE REAL EXODUS – A SMALL PORTION THE SUPPRESSED EVIDENCE – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqf6t_DnmGY

    For those unfamiliar with the Caldwells’ story this following video is essential viewing. Jim and Penny Caldwell’s painstakingly documented explorations deep into the Arabian Peninsula over an 8 year period corroborates in great detail the earlier findings of the late Ron Wyatt – but it goes further by fleshing out the exodus and 40 year wandering accounts in startling ways;,,

    Jim and Penny Caldwell – Mountain of God [2009]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaPn_pKQt0s

    “Many archaeologists, Bible scholars and historians continue to conclude from the evidence that the Exodus did indeed occur, among them the editor of Biblical Archaeology Review,” Hershel Shanks (Ha’aretz Magazine, Nov. 5, 1999).

    Jericho Unearthed Bible Proof – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-cmdl4Cqdo

    The Physical Ashen Remains Of Sodom and Gomorrah – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwTVFk1HK3Y

  36. 36
    bornagain77 says:

    And then there is fulfilled prophecy

    The Precisely Fulfilled Prophecy Of Israel Becoming A Nation In 1948 – video
    http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4041241

    The Miracle of the Restoration of the Nation of Israel – video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydwxy9yqhzM

    Bible Prophecy Fulfilled – Israel 1948 – article
    Excerpt: Although July 15, 537 B.C. can not be verified by outside sources as the exact day of Cyrus’s proclamation, we do know that 537 B.C. was the year in which he made it. As such, we can know for certain that the Bible, in one of the most remarkable prophecies in history, accurately foresaw the year of Israel’s restoration as an independent nation some two thousand five hundred years before the event occurred.
    http://brittgillette.com/WordPress/?p=16

    The preceding start date, used in the prophecy calculation, is confirmed by the archaeological record:

    SETTING THE RECORD STRAIGHT
    Excerpt “In late years several cuneiform tablets have been discovered pertaining to the fall of Babylon which peg both Biblical and secular historic dates. The one tablet known as the “Nabunaid Chronicle” gives the date for the fall of Babylon which specialists have ascertained as being October 12-13, 539 B.C., Julian Calendar, or October 6-7, 539 B.C., according to our present Gregorian Calendar. This tablet also says that Cyrus made his triumphant entry into Babylon 16 days after its fall to his army. Thus his accession year commenced in October, 539 B.C. However, in another cuneiform tablet called “Strassmaier, Cyrus No. 11″ Cyrus’ first regnal year is mentioned and was determined to have begun March 17-18, 538 B.C., and to have concluded March 4-5, 537 B.C. It was in this first regnal year of Cyrus that he issued his decree to permit the Jews to return to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple. (Ezra 1:1) The decree may have been made in late 538 B.C. or before March 4-5, 537 B.C.
    In either case this would have given sufficient time for the large party of 49,897 Jews to organize their expedition and to make their long four-month journey from Babylon to Jerusalem to get there by September 29-30, 537 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month, to build their altar to Jehovah as recorded at Ezra 3:1-3. Inasmuch as September 29-30, 537 B.C., officially ends the seventy years of desolation as recorded at 2 Chronicles 36:20, 21, so the beginning of the desolation of the land must have officially begun to be counted after September 21-22, 607 B.C., the first of the seventh Jewish month in 607 B.C., which is the beginning point for the counting of the 2,520 years.”
    http://onlytruegod.org/jwstrs/537vs539.htm

  37. 37
    bornagain77 says:

    there is a glitch to the ‘precisely fulfilled prophecy’ video,, here is another link:

    Restoration Of Israel and Jerusalem In Prophecy – Chuck Missler (Doing The Math) – video
    https://vimeo.com/92684712

  38. 38
    KRock says:

    @ Mapou

    “That whole hell business is a pagan idea. Even Muslims have their version of heaven and hell. Personally, I think it’s the work of the devil. The wages of sin is death. Period. References to eternal hell either in the Bible or other religious literature are all highly suspicious, IMO. Throughout the centuries, these doctrines have served the interests of some corrupt organized church or other.”

    I respect what you are saying Map’s, but theologically speaking, I would have a serious problem with the fact that Hitler and Mother Teresa were hanging out in the same place together after death. What kind of “Just God” is that? Now granted, I am also not sure if that is what you are suggesting with the above comment.

    I have a problem with the universalistic doctrine on hell and heaven from a Christian stand point. Christians are to deny themselves the desires of this world when they follow Christ, which of course is a lot harder than it sounds or looks. Why in the world would any Christian waste their time abstaining from the desires of this world if they’re all going to end up in the same place together?

    I find there to be less issues, theologically speaking that is, if there was some sort of eternal seperation from God, rather then the notion that everyone ends up in the some place or another after death. But like I said, I am not entirely sure if that is what you were insinuating or not.

  39. 39
    anthropic says:

    KR 38, if everybody goes to the same place, Mother Teresa and Hitler alike, this creates at least two issues that I can see.

    First, it outrages our sense of justice. If child molesters, murderers and such are treated the same as those who volunteer their time & money to help the less fortune, even at the risk of their own lives, where is the morality of that? Such a God is amoral, inferior to even our sense of right and wrong. As such, this is no God worth worshipping.

    Second, it means our choices have no significance. Reject God or accept God, it doesn’t matter. We are like a child in a car seat set up with a toy steering wheel, enthusiastically steering left and right under the illusion that we are driving the vehicle. Our lives have little significance, since they make no ultimate difference. In short, human dignity & value is discarded.

  40. 40
    Mapou says:

    Yahweh does not look at righteousness to decide who gets eternal life and who gets eternal death. If you think your righteousness is better than that of a Hitler, Manson or Stalin, you are mistaken. If you steal a penny, you will steal a cow. This is what the metaphor of leaven and bread is all about: a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Even Jesus is reported to have said that if you had been unfaithful in the smallest of the commandments, it is as if you had disobeyed the greatest of them. King David was both a murderer and an adulterer and yet Yahweh will give him eternal life. Whatever righteousness you think you have is really worthless in the great scheme of things. The only “righteousness” Yahweh wants from us is faith. The “sin” stuff has already been paid for.

    So no, I don’t believe we go to any place when we die. Death is like sleep. The spirit is eternal but when you die, you lose consciousness and that’s it. God can resurrect you by creating a new body (receptacle) for your spirit if he so wishes. In the end, there are only two kinds of people, those who live forever with Yahweh and those who don’t. Any kind of eternal hell is an insult to Yahweh’s intelligence.

    That’s my take on it.

  41. 41
    KRock says:

    @ anthropic, #39.

    I couldn’t agree with you more!

  42. 42
    KRock says:

    @Mapou #40.

    I agree, its not the righteousness of someone that one will gain the merits of eternal life. Rather, I would say that the difference comes from whether or not one chooses to repent or not. That to me, is what separates, say, a Joseph Stalin from a Billy Graham. I am not entirely sure what happens after death, but NDE’s would suggest that consciousness, in some form or another, does carry on.

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