Dave, It's good to be patriotic, but one needs to be also rational and humble.
"Islam is a disease and people like me are the cure. Asking me to approach it with humility is like asking me to approach cancer with humility. Not a chance."
People in this forum have pointed out that Islam as religion is not "disease" or "cancer." It is the irrational Islamic fanatics who cannot be controlled even by their own normal fellow-Muslims, who are the problem. The Pope has learned this lesson the hard way, and, to his credit, he realized the role of humility.
There was an excellent column by none other than Phillip E. Johnson dealing with this topic, see:
http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-06-011-c
BTW, we need the Muslims on our side in this battlle against evolution!rockyr
February 16, 2007
February
02
Feb
16
16
2007
10:56 AM
10
10
56
AM
PDT
Hey Mo,
If you want to really learn something about Islam go to the largest Muslim organization in this country: ISNA. By the way, its led by a a woman.
I visited the ISNA website ( http://www.isna.org ) and I'm not sure what point you wanted to make about it. Please explain.DaveScot
February 16, 2007
February
02
Feb
16
16
2007
01:56 AM
1
01
56
AM
PDT
Winter--There’s a big crisis now in New Testament scholarship, over whether the Christ of faith is actually the same person as the Jesus of history,
The New Testament is a very well-sourced book and there really is not crisis in scholarship.,
There are, however, secularists who hate the Christ described in the Gospel and they have been trying to undermine tranditional Christianity for a couple of centuries.
It's what the Da Vinci Code is based.
It's not really scholarship.tribune7
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
As for killing an innocent life, its flatly condemned.
Now, is a Moslem who converts to Christianity an innocent life who must not be killed?
Tribune, the nazis were by no means pro-MuslimMaybe it's better to say the the Muslims were pro-Nazi
Anyway,
I think I am done here. It was nice chatting with you all. May God guide all of us to His truth, even if we may be adverse to it.mohammed.husain
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
09:28 AM
9
09
28
AM
PDT
The most common objection is well, the terrorists act in the name of religion. This is true. However, one should understand that in the Muslim world there is no separation between church and state like there is in the West. Everyone who seeks legitimacy for whatever cause, no matter how mundane or how otherworldly appeals to religion, because religion is the source of authority and legitimacy. Since everyone appeals to religion, it makes religion less insightful a tool for political analysis, and so one must look beyond the rhetoric of groups involved with violence in the Muslim world.mohammed.husain
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
09:26 AM
9
09
26
AM
PDT
btw, its not about trying to use arguments about more equivalency. Its more about showing you that, with your understanding of what Islam is, you are unable to explain certain phenomenon, like that of White American conversion, for instance. You are led to believe, with your current understanding, absurdities about those who accept Islam and also those who are devout Muslims. The absurdity of those conclusions should be reson to review one's understanding of the religion, to better explain these phenomenon.
If we look at the Muslim community in the United States they are one of the most successful minority communities in this country. They are also a very devout community. They are law abiding. Now why dissasociate their religion from their success in this situation, and associate religion with their failure in other situations abroad? There seems to be an inconsistency, that should make people rethink their prejudice about this religion.mohammed.husain
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
09:21 AM
9
09
21
AM
PDT
Now, in return for responding to your objections tribune please read this interview and also respond. That would be fair, I think.
http://www.abc.net.au/sundaynights/stories/s1237986.htmmohammed.husain
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:57 AM
8
08
57
AM
PDT
Atom, yes thank you. You have demonstrated that, and to you and antg, I am very grateful. You both have been the lone voices of reason.
Tribune, the nazis were by no means pro-Muslim. You probably dont know this, but in the nazi concentration camps, the jews who were ready to be exterminated were called "musulman." Thats the persianized word for Muslim. What this should tell you is that Muslims occupied the lowest place in the European conscious, lower even than the Jews in Nazi Germany. For proof of this refer to Victor Frakl's excellent book, entitled Man's Search for Meaning.
Of course lying is condemned. Taqiyya is prudential dissumlation, concealing one's identity under threat to life or property. It's a doctrine only recognized by a minority of Muslims, since that minority was persecuted by the majority. As for killing an innocent life, its flatly condemned. The inviolability of life is stated in the Quran. Paraphrased, the verse states that "To kill one innocent life is as if one has killed all of humanity." There is a lot of wisdom in this verse. Once we justify the killing of one innocent, we enter upon a slippery slope in which anyone's life is jeapordized, not to mention that we dehumanize ourselves in the process.mohammed.husain
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:54 AM
8
08
54
AM
PDT
I hope the few of us on here willing to speak up were able to show you that not all ID proponents have hate towards Islam and/or Muslims.
OK, let's take Islam out of it. Is it wrong to lie? Is it wrong to kill people if the convert to another religion?
Is an inability to condemn lying and killing grounds for suspicion?tribune7
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:46 AM
8
08
46
AM
PDT
mohammed, Why do some insist on making arguments of moral equivilancy?
You didn't address any of our concerns. Is lying to non-Muslim's wrong? Is killing Christian converts wrong?
lets not forget that the Jews fled to Muslim countries for refuge then
Up until the Nazi conquests -- and the Nazies were anti-Christian and pro Muslim -- Christian Europe had by far the largest Jewish population in the world.tribune7
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:43 AM
8
08
43
AM
PDT
Guys,
I'm not going to argue defending Islam or The Church on this thread, I feel I've said what I needed to say.
But to mohammed.husain specifically, and muslims in general, I hope the few of us on here willing to speak up were able to show you that not all ID proponents have hate towards Islam and/or Muslims. Some of us do actually welcome Muslims into the community as we welcome Jews, Agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus or anyone else of any faith who wants to talk science.Atom
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:37 AM
8
08
37
AM
PDT
Here is a link to an interview with a prominent Muslim leader once known as Tim Winter, now Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad. It's hosted by ABC. Maybe it will give you all some insight into why westerners are turning to Islam.
http://www.abc.net.au/sundaynights/stories/s1237986.htmmohammed.husain
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:21 AM
8
08
21
AM
PDT
The hatred of Islam many of the commentators share begs one question, why is Islam growing at a rapid pace in this country, if in fact it is as evil as many of you make it out to be? The growth of Islam in this country has a lot to do conversion as it does with immigration. White Americans, Black Americans, Latino Americans are converting to Islam. The most prominent leaders of the American Muslim communtiy have converted to the religion. This should make many of you think twice, when you assume that the values of Islam are inhuman or diametrically opposed to western values.mohammed.husain
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:10 AM
8
08
10
AM
PDT
You guys sound a lot like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and the loonies that you all criticize so much for their fanatical hatred of religion.
Exactly. Dawkins just goes one god further.antg
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
08:04 AM
8
08
04
AM
PDT
You guys sound a lot like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and the loonies that you all criticize so much for their fanatical hatred of religion. It's truly ironic. Even if we speak of histories, the history of the Christian West is one filled with violence. We have the inquisition, (lets not forget that the Jews fled to Muslim countries for refuge then), we have the sectarian wars of europe, we have the years of colonization, we have nuclear war, the holocaust and the atom bomb (which together contribute to the bloodiest and most destructive century ever known to man), and now these bogus wars on terror, which are really a guise for expanding US hegemony. Given all that, I am mature enough to distinguish between religion and its uses for various ends. And this isnt always easy given that Christianity has been complicit in a lot of the aformentioned violence. All this I guess is easy to overlook, so long as the subject of attack is the other.
Your understanding of Islam guys is childish. Knowing Iranians who fled the revolution doesnt count as knowing Muslims, unless they still practice Islam by the way. If you want to really learn something about Islam go to the largest Muslim organization in this country: ISNA. By the way, its led by a a woman.mohammed.husain
This is just like judging Christianity by pointing to Fred Phelps and abortion bombers.
If Fred Phelps ran the country you might have a point. And if abortion bombers were not being prosecuted you'd have a point. I don't even think Pat Robertson has defended abortion bombers.
Phelps church has 150 members. There are more people who believe that the Air Force has aliens on ice in Nevada than belong to Phelps' church.tribune7
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
05:38 AM
5
05
38
AM
PDT
C'mon Dave,
This is just like judging Christianity by pointing to Fred Phelps and abortion bombers.
'The boundary between good and evil does not lie at the borders of a country but cuts through each of our hearts'*
*or something like thatantg
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
05:27 AM
5
05
27
AM
PDT
jehu
How many? I don't know. Evidently enough to convict and sentence this 13 year old girl to death by stoning.
Don't think it really happens?
Then ask this girl in a video of a stoning. Address your question c/o Allah the Merciful because SHE WAS STONED TO DEATH AND IS DEAD NOW.
Wake up America!
DaveScot
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
03:30 AM
3
03
30
AM
PDT
Even the old testament injunction for stoning only allowed it where there were two or three witnesses to thee act. How many people commit adultry in front of two or three witnesses?Jehu
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
01:00 AM
1
01
00
AM
PDT
Atom,
Good gosh. You missed the more recent memo from God that said “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.â€Â
Got it? Write that down.
DaveScot
February 15, 2007
February
02
Feb
15
15
2007
12:21 AM
12
12
21
AM
PDT
How many Christians or Jews have you heard of that have committed suicide bombings against civilians for religious reasons?
Not suicide bombings, but religiously motivated violence. (Abortion clinics, Christian Militias in other countries, etc) Again, I'm a believer and I stick up for my faith, but a spade is a spade.Atom
February 14, 2007
February
02
Feb
14
14
2007
11:55 PM
11
11
55
PM
PDT
DS, I don't want to get banned or moderated on here, so please allow me to speak freely.
I simply stated that these are not MY opinions on Islam. I want to be sure to distance myself from this sort of anti-Muslim rhetoric and I think that since this blog represents ID in a lot of ways, to associate anti-Islam with ID is counter-productive.
But to answer you question, the G-d of Torah also commands stoning to death for adultery. This is the G-d I serve, as does WmAD (as far as I know), so I can't throw stones at Islam from within my own glass house. Nor would I want to.Atom
February 14, 2007
February
02
Feb
14
14
2007
11:49 PM
11
11
49
PM
PDT
DaveScot : "Islam is a disease and people like me are the cure."
I like that kind of direct response. Too many obsequious grovelers in Xianity these days.
IMO - That's one reason the Church is failing in it's mission - lack of heroic courage in honesty when facing down lies.
--------------
mohammed.husain:
Do I know any Muslims? I've known a few. Two of the 3 I knew personally were liars and thieves. The other didn't really practice.
The 1st 2 would lie to your face, knowing that you knew they were lying!!
Al taqiyya mean anything to ya? With deceptive practices like that, how can anyone trust a Muslim?
It's not a slur but an honest question.
I also have several friends who either live in Israel or have lived there.
Most of them have been shot at. All of them knew someone or even whole families who were slaughtered by cowardly Islamics sniping from a safe distance and then bragging about the killings in the next day's Palestinian news papers... Or they knew someone who was killed in a suicide bombing.
How many Christians or Jews have you heard of that have committed suicide bombings against civilians for religious reasons?
None? Gee, what a surprise.
There is a right morality and a wrong one; and there is also a right religion and wrong ones.
The rule of Allah is convert or die, the rule of Christ is "do as you would be done by, love your enemies...".
Do the math.Borne
February 14, 2007
February
02
Feb
14
14
2007
09:22 PM
9
09
22
PM
PDT
If it were a real threat, the only thing that would need be done to stop it would be to bomb Mecca. Muslims would lose faith..and Islam would cease to exist.
Do you believe it's really that easy?DaveScot
February 14, 2007
February
02
Feb
14
14
2007
08:37 PM
8
08
37
PM
PDT
Offhand can you think of anyone else here at UD who’s a fan of Ann besides me?
Hey, I like Ann!tribune7
February 14, 2007
February
02
Feb
14
14
2007
08:35 PM
8
08
35
PM
PDT
Atom
Of course this doesn't represent ID theory. These are my personal opinions. I labeled it "off topic" pretty plainly. I'm not nearly as anti-Islam as say, Ann Coulter. Offhand can you think of anyone else here at UD who's a fan of Ann besides me? As far as the tent goes I've never taken up not saying what I think to further an agenda and I'm not about to start now - that's for politicians.
So Atom, why don't you tell me what you think about the quaint Islamic custom of stoning women to death for adultery. Personally I don't want to be in the same tent with anyone willing to look the other way while that happens. But that's just me.
DaveScot
February 14, 2007
February
02
Feb
14
14
2007
08:22 PM
8
08
22
PM
PDT
Do you think/feel/know whether there exists any distinction between the average Muslim and ‘radical’ Muslims?
I think there are a whole lot of people who happen to be Muslims who would be just content to live and let live. The Muslim women I've known, I've liked. I knew a Turk who was pretty normal.
But I'll admit that's not an all encompassing experience and that I'm no expert.
What troubles me, though, is the inability by Islamic leaders to condemn terrorism without qualification, Sharia law, and killing Christian converts.
I'd also like to see them make it clear that those interpreting the Koran as allowing lying to non-Muslims are in the wrong.
I'd also like to see them defend free speech -- let the Jehovah's Witnesses got door-to-door -- in Mecca without fear of death. (I'd defend the right of Moslem missionaries to proseltyze in this country, as I suspect most on this board would.)
Anyway, the more I learn of Islam, the less I like it.tribune7
February 14, 2007
February
02
Feb
14
14
2007
08:22 PM
8
08
22
PM
PDT
To throw my hat into the fray: I am a Fundamentalist (meaning I believe the Bible is G-d's inspired, innerant Word) Messianic believer, I believe in Israel's right to exist in the Holy Land, etc. I believe Islam is a false religion, though I believe that it is closer to being true than almost any other religion outside Judeo-Christianity.
That being said, I cringe when I read reactionary, exaggerated Islamophobia. You may have your reasons for doing so, and this is WmAD's blog, but I am THANKFUL to the fullest that this does not represent an "ID" position, nor is related to ID in any meaningful way.
Remember, ID is as much Islam friendly as it is Christianity friendy, as it is Deism friendly. Let's not kick people out of the tent just yet guys.
Again, I'm not going to defend the Kingdom of Islam or the Church, I don't need to. But since I am a regular commenter here, I want to make explicit that these are views I do NOT share and apologize to any Muslim friends in cyberspace if this is offensive to you. It is offenseive to me as well, and I'm not Muslim.Atom