59 Replies to “[off topic] Civilization Calls

  1. 1
    tribune7 says:

    And a good chunk of the money that the Saudis are using to fund those Islamic radicals comes from U.S. drivers, and we still can’t take steps to cut off a little of it by drilling in ANWR or the off the coasts.

  2. 2
    KevinWParker says:

    Or by raising gas mileage standards.

  3. 3
    Inquisitive Brain says:

    [really off-topic]

    Can someone at UD do a post about the Kansas science standards?

    It is truly sad that Kansas is the only state in the US that does not consider molecular biology and information theory as scientific.

  4. 4
    Forthekids says:

    The Darwinists have really screwed us here in Kansas. But, I promise you it won’t last. They’ve worked overtime in getting those standards Darwinized, but it’s gonna backfire on them.

    They should have eased up a bit so we wouldn’t have to go through the circus act again next time.

  5. 5
    Michaels7 says:

    I would say that is on target, if not on topic. We take far to much for granted and not just riches, but simple freedoms.

    There is a new caucus coming together: Victory Caucus.
    http://www.victorycaucus.com/

    I have found ID is not the only subject treated with disrespect, bias or incompetence by the Media.

    For example, has anyone heard our soldiers captured and killed over 140 terrorist in Iraq last week? Our troops do this every single week. Yet you would never know it by any MSM outlet.

    The same misleading or incompetence of the media regarding ID happens in Iraq as well, daily.

    Europeans btw are fleeing some areas in their own countries. Their population growing older than ours being replaced faster.

    As to energy, we need an aggressive 10 year plan. Opening up oil leases is only short term, but I’d do both, plus nuclear and all other alternatives. Bush’s 20% reduction is a good start. But this country needs a 10 year goal, much like NASA’s Apollo Moon project. We may not meet it, but if we put billions into worthy projects, the technology spinoff reaps rewards.

    Besides, it would help America to remain competitive in world markets if it takes the lead in solar, battery, eco-friendly fuel alternatives.

    Our country needs to be motivated again and united for energy independence like it was in the race against Soviet Union to the moon. Business, universities, government and private citizens coming together and stop blaming each other.

    The enemy is not America. And we need to agree to win the war on terror both militarily and by technology like we have in the past. This time disconnecting our country from the pit of hell in the Middle East as fast as possible.

    Truly, it should be the call for this generation. Far more money can go into accelerated energy programs including larger scale discounts and tax incentives for all new homes and alternative transportation energy resources.

    There have been some major advancements recently even the big car manufacturers will have to take notice of soon. Actually, they already are beginning with plug-in hybrids.

    Besides Telsa Motors rolling out this years snazzy 0-60 in 4sec sportster, so is Phoenix Motors and UEV Corp. Below are news mags and car sites. Price ranges from 45K to 100K. It is a start.

    http://www.greencar.com/
    http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm
    http://www.greencarcongress.co.....stall.html
    http://www.altairnano.com/index.html
    http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.html
    http://www.evworld.com/view.cf.....oryid=1176
    http://www.teslamotors.com
    http://www.universalelectricvehicle.com/index.htm

    DARPA and even CIA are invested in one of these companies.

    We’re winning the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. We just need the will to forge ahead. Same in energy.

  6. 6
    tribune7 says:

    Or by raising gas mileage standards.

    Which leds to the heart of the issue: Those that insist on raising CAFE standards throw hissy fits about drilling in ANWR or off the coasts.

    OTOH, generally, those strongly supporting drilling think raising CAFE standards are stupid and counter-productive (i.e. driving people to buy trucks rather than cars), BUT would be willing to go along with it as part of a policy to increase U.S. energy independence and defund the madrassas.

  7. 7
    JGuy says:

    I have a prediction w/ my buddy that the US will attack Iran witihin about the next 10 months. No earlier than mid March. The pretext predicted are either of these:

    1.Attack on US soil.
    2.US ship’s attacked by Iran.
    3.”Discovered” to be direct supporters of Baghdad bombings & instability.

    I suspected as likely #2 for my own reasons, but think #3 is also as likely. #1 serves to maintain an ongoing fear at the moment, and there are problems w/ “them” executing this option in my opinion.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200.....aq_al_sadr

    pretext# 3 ?

  8. 8
    Borne says:

    Islam, not just radical Islam, but Islam itself is the most dangerous threat to the world today.

    Imo, America i.e. all North America has already lost this war. Just as has Europe which will soon be called Eurabia.

    Is it really apathy and blindness or willful misinformation and something drastically, treacherously wrong in government?

    I find it unbelievable that Islam has grown tremendously in N.A. since 9-11 rather than having taken a heavy hit. How is this possible?

    Israel which has been fighting the Islamic snake for decades knows. We have not listened. Our governments have not listened nor learned.

    As General Douglas MacArthur said,
    “It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it.”
    “In war there is no substitute for victory.”
    “No man is entitled to the blessings of freedom unless he be vigilant in its preservation.”
    “One cannot wage war under present conditions without the support of public opinion, which is tremendously molded by the press and other forms of propaganda.”

    But the media and the government still present Islam as a religion of peace. It is anything but. It is a venomous serpent waiting to strike.

    It uses al taquiya to deceive the nations. It invades nations one family at a time and makes babies till it is strong enough to take over.

    Will America wake up before it is too late?

    Twenty years from now I fear those of us who survive will look back with 20/20 hindsight and see how blatant the warning signs were and wonder why we let freedom die.

  9. 9
    mohammed.husain says:

    I’m a little shocked by the islamophobia on this website. I suspect that Mr. Borne has very little interaction with the indigenous Muslim community in America and/or has very few friends that are practicing Muslims. Perhaps you should find a practicing Muslim and talk to him/her with an open mind, rather than continuing on centuries old hostility and misunderstanding.

  10. 10
    mohammed.husain says:

    The idea that a full 1/5 of the world’s population is against freedom, to the extent that they would fight for its death, seems a little absurd. Don’t you think freedom is a little more universal? Do you really think valuing freedom is really an exclusively western value? To move beyond conflict we must approach the other with thoughtful humility, rather than prejudice.

  11. 11
    Balti says:

    GOOOOOOD GRIEF!

    I had a look at the link and couldnt decide whether to fall about laughing or start crying. Surely you dont really believe that tripe???

    I am a Pentecostal Christian in England. I have Muslim friends but then I also have friends who call themselves atheists and agnostics.

    Yes a significant amount of Muslims do have the goal of imposing Sharia law in the whole world. That said, that is never going to happen. Furthermore, the rise of immigration to the West has more to do with the extreme difference in wealth between the West and other countries, rather than ideology.

  12. 12
    M.Olson says:

    open minds, tolerance, understanding, blah, blah, blah-exactly what is that going to accomplish?
    What about some actual solutions to the problem from our peaceful Muslim friends? I’m not seeing any and I have a feeling it’s because at the end of the day blood is indeed thicker than water.

  13. 13
    DaveScot says:

    mohammed

    Do you trust the current gov’t in Iran with nuclear weapons?

    I sure don’t. I expect something will be done about it sooner rather than later.

    On the freedom loving of Muslims in general, do you believe that women should be equal in every way to men under the law? If not, then you’re giving lip service to freedom while trying to deny it to fully half the world’s population. I’ve known a lot of families who fled Iran in the late 1970’s and almost every one of the men were misogynous by western standards. The really alarming part of that is these were the Muslims who least agreed with the Islamic revolution and fled the country because they a) they were able to flee and b) they didn’t want to live under strict Islamic law.

    Here is the situation on the ground in Iran from a female point of view:

    http://www.middleastwomen.org/.....thijab.htm

  14. 14
    DaveScot says:

    balti

    Yes a significant amount of Muslims do have the goal of imposing Sharia law in the whole world. That said, that is never going to happen.

    It is already a fact in much of the world today. Just because it isn’t yet a reality where you live doesn’t mean hundreds of million of people right this second are not living under the oppressive thumb of Islamic law. I think your complacency that “it isn’t going to happen”, especially without proactive measures to thwart it, is naive and dangerous.

    I suppose that attitude of is why the United States had to bail you out twice in the twentieth century. Here in the U.S. we’re getting more than a little tired of our blood and treasure being sacrificed to keep Europe from being overrun by fascists.

  15. 15
    mohammed.husain says:

    After the islamic revolution in Iran, female literacy skyrocketed. Participation by females in civil life also increased dramatically. In universities in Iran, females outnumber males. Now, I dont imagine that things are close to ideal for women there. The picture you paint, however, is much too dire. The Iranian revolution was a popular one, people in the West seem unable to understand that. Yes, there are dissidents, and though many Iranians are critical of different actions by the government, they stem from general mismanagement, corruption, and a poor economy, not a disagreement about the basic principles for which it stands.

    As for Iran being a threat: since its inception in 1979, it hasnt attacked any country. However, its been attacked, and its been subject to numerous coup attempts by the US. The iranians are peaceful people, who’d like to manage their own affairs, without foreign meddling.

  16. 16
    DaveScot says:

    The iranians are peaceful people, who’d like to manage their own affairs, without foreign meddling.

    ROFLMAO – Oh I see. The president of Iran wants to wipe Israel from the face of the earth by peaceful means. And I suppose the peaceful people of Iran don’t finance and support terrorists either. And maybe we should look the other way when girls get stoned to death for adultery. And the peaceful people of Iran attacked our embassy and held our citizens hostage for over a year from 1979 to 1981. Iran’s lucky the U.S. had a reborn Christian pansy in office at the time or it would have been subject to the full fury of our wrath for what was an act of war against us. Embassies in the civilized world are sovereign soil and are supposed to be defended by their hosts with everything at their disposal. You’re deluded, Mohammed. You’re in denial and I’m calling you to the carpet on it.

    Islam is a disease and people like me are the cure. Asking me to approach it with humility is like asking me to approach cancer with humility. Not a chance. I approach it with the scorn and derision it rightly deserves. And don’t think I didn’t notice you couldn’t bring yourself to say that women should have exactly equal rights under the law. That’s because you’re a misogynist like all practicing Islamic men. You can’t possibly be faithful to Islam without making women second class citizens. Thanks for making my point for me. Many people in the U.S. don’t know your culture and beliefs well enough to believe it’s really true. I do.

  17. 17
    jmcd says:

    Equally horrible things have happenned under a Christian banner though not for some time. The West went through a unique series of events and circumstances that built the civil institutions and prosperity that make our values possible. We cannot expect those without that shared history to be able to jump ahead without the same benefits of history and tradition. To call Islam a disease is to call religion a disease.

    Religion is a very effective tool for creating a them and an us. When you have a large group of people that are generally impoverished compared to another large group, the impoverished group will come up with explanations as to why. Easy to understand explanations are most effective so invariably lies become truths.

    In a pluralistic/wealthy society such as our own these categories become watered down and next to meaningless. If I am a Catholic and you are a Protestant, welll that’s just fine. A few hundred years ago though, that distinction was cause for killing on a truly massive scale. We have forgotten the power of division in our abundant times.

    Islam is the proxy for people with political agendas to motivate others towards a goal. Many if not most people don’t want to think too much. If my luck sucks and people that I trust tell me it sucks because of group B then I may well not question that and turn my frustration towards group B. There are plenty of well educated moderate Muslims that know better. Let us keep in mind though that thinking people are generally in a minority and when the radicals attack their enemies the first people to go are the moderates on their own side.

  18. 18
    Apollos says:

    Yes a significant amount of Muslims do have the goal of imposing Sharia law in the whole world. That said, that is never going to happen.

    It’s just a bad dream everyone. Shhh…back to sleep children. *sweet lullabies*

  19. 19
    jmcd says:

    By the way

    You are going to have a tough time finding an economist that is going to tell you that immigration in the US is bad for our economy. Lumping immmigration with suit case nukes makes it difficult for me to take any part of the argument, if you can call it that, seriously.

    Certainly, a nuclear terrorist event in the US is a real concern and will become more likely for the forseeable future. I just do not know what we are being called to do though. Close our borders and invade Iran? I can think of few better recipes for an economic disaster for the US.

  20. 20
    tribune7 says:

    The iranians are peaceful people, who’d like to manage their own affairs, without foreign meddling.

    What did Salman Rushdie ever do to Iran? How about Israel? Why does Iran support Hizballah?

  21. 21
    DaveScot says:

    jmcd

    To call Islam a disease is to call religion a disease.

    This presumes all religions are equal and they most emphatically are not all equal.

    Certainly we have to take the nukes away from Iran by whatever means necessary. Iran is the leading sponser of terrorism in the world unapologeticaly supporting Hezbollah and Hamas, calling for the total destruction of Israel, and daily denouncement of the west and particularly the United States as the Great Satan. We’d be fools to let that country have the capability to produce nuclear weapons. And we won’t. Europe last week finally threw up its hands and said diplomatic means to stop Iran’s nuclear ambitions will not work. Duh. Like we haven’t been telling them that for years. Aberwhatshisface’s days are numbered. Unless he rolls over, and with his ego and mouth larger than Persia ever was I don’t see that happening, an armed intervention is coming sooner rather than later.

  22. 22
    jmcd says:

    Ahmedinejad does not direct policy for all his bluster. He has been rebuked by Khomeini in the Ayatollah’s own newspaper and by Iranians themselves who overwhelmingly voted against his slate of candidates in recent elections. He was voted in on a populist economic platform. He has so far failed miserably to deliver on his promises. Believe it or not Iranians care more about their economic prospects then punishing the great Satan. Ahmedinejad is very likely sincere in his lunacy, but it does not appear that Iran is willing to follow him too far down that road.

    My point about religion is that it can be manipulated towards evil ends. This has unarguably happenned with Christianity in the past. I do not think that religion is inherently destructive anymore then I think that people are inherently destructive. The fact that Islam is presently being manipulated towards evil ends does not make it inherently evil. The theological backflips that virulent Wahabism had to do to fit 9/11 under the umbrella of Jihad display that Islam is not easily bent towards the kind of death lust that Al Quada displays.

  23. 23
    antg says:

    Dave, Bourne and others

    Do you actually know any Muslims personally?Have you ever had a heart-to-heart chat with them? Or do you get your views second-hand from the mass media and bizarre websites like ‘civilisation calls’?

    Have you ever visited a middle eastern country, say Egypt or Jordan or any other for that matter and chatted over a game or two of backgammon?

    Sure the Iranian politicians are abhorrent but its not like the USA has ever interfered with another country or anything…

    I won’t go any further but the point I am making is that regular people, whereever they are from or whatever they believe, have more in common than the media would have us believe. Honestly, they are not all plotting to destroy America

    Dave, can I suggest if you want to blog on these things you start a seperate blog. May I remind you that UD has a worldwide audience and not all of us share these America-centric views.

    I have enjoyed your posts here but I’m sorry some of these comments are just plain offensive. I don’t believe they belong on this blog.

    antg

  24. 24
    tribune7 says:

    Sure the Iranian politicians are abhorrent but its not like the USA has ever interfered with another country or anything…

    Sure. Germany in the ’40s comes to mind.

    Why do some insist on making arguments of moral equivilancy?

    As far as I can tell Islam is a value system that justifies the use of lies and terror to acheive a political and religious end against people who want to be left alone. I would love to be proven wrong. The easiest way to do it would be for Moslems to speak out loudly against it.

    I don’t hear it. All I hear are arguments of moral equivilancy that whither in the wind when addressed.

    OK, there are a few like Hamid Karzai that seem to have some sense but even Joe Islam, himself, (Cat Stevens) said he was cool with kllling Rushdie.

  25. 25
    DaveScot says:

    antg

    Do you actually know any Muslims personally?

    Yes, lots of them. The women are really nice and the men are really misogynists. If you’d read the comments you’d know I already said I knew a lot of Iranian families that fled Iran in the late 1970’s.

    I have enjoyed your posts here but I’m sorry some of these comments are just plain offensive.

    Too bad. One of the consequences of frank exchange of views is offending someone who doesn’t agree with you. I find people who support misogynists offensive.

    I don’t believe they belong on this blog.

    You can believe whatever you like.

    May I remind you that UD has a worldwide audience and not all of us share these America-centric views.

    Not all Americans share these views. But just as an aside here’s a breakdown of UD traffic by country. I have a real-time report broken down into scores of countries but no way of cutting & pasting so here are the top 4 by percenage:

    USA 80%
    Canada 3%
    Great Britain 3%
    Austrailia 2%

    Almost 90% of our traffic comes from the 4 western nations most closely allied against Islamic terrorism.

  26. 26
    JGuy says:

    Prior to the 1940’s can we point to a time when radical Islam was a threat to the world?

    I suppose we must take into account the rise of the oil & transportation industries.

    Is it POSSIBLE that both sides are wrong? That there is an actual threat from Islam.. but yet not as significant as we Westerners think? If it were a real threat, the only thing that would need be done to stop it would be to bomb Mecca. Muslims would lose faith..and Islam would cease to exist. I suspect the threat is legitimate. However.. I am suspicious of covert policies or forces acting in the broader picture. For example, it is entirely feasible that more than a decade was spent in developing Al Quaeda as a terroist organisation.. but only to create a threat to replace the Soviet Union and to keep the arms industry rolling… and keep American in debt. There is an ENORMOUS amount of money invovled..and it’s like the elephant in the room. I’m not syaing this is actuality.. just possibility..and feasable in my opinion.

    It’s always good to have a consipracist option, eh? :p

  27. 27
    JGuy says:

    Another aspect of this war, is that it furthers a globalist agenda. For example, May 2008, we in the USA will all require a common set of information on drivers liscenses. This is a a subtle yet perfect staging for a national ID card. I might also point to the North American Union.. whose idea is that???? Who voted for it? Who is pushing it? Does anyone know?

  28. 28
    tribune7 says:

    Prior to the 1940’s can we point to a time when radical Islam was a threat to the world?

    Well . . .

    And

    And let’s not forget the Barbary Pirates.

  29. 29
    JGuy says:

    tribune7:
    Thanks for the good info. One of my pastors has a doctrate in Islamic studies, and is very outspoken about Islam. So, I do know that there have been atrocities in the past. I’m not a historian and can’t say how this compares to the Catholic crusades. However, I know Islam ultiamtely has some wicked teachings… but I have met some seemingly benign Muslims. Not sure what to make of it.

    Do you think/feel/know whether there exists any distinction between the average Muslim and ‘radical’ Muslims? or do you think they share a common value set? If they do, then how is it possible we can even be in Iraq without all the theocratic Muslim nations rebelling against our presense? I’m still trying to feel these things out.

    I’m curious about how (or whether) the Catholic church might be trying to swoon Muslim into sharing a common “brotherhood” of sorts??? As some papal visits to Islamic countries overseas seem to hint.

    Thanks again,

    JGuy

  30. 30
    Atom says:

    To throw my hat into the fray: I am a Fundamentalist (meaning I believe the Bible is G-d’s inspired, innerant Word) Messianic believer, I believe in Israel’s right to exist in the Holy Land, etc. I believe Islam is a false religion, though I believe that it is closer to being true than almost any other religion outside Judeo-Christianity.

    That being said, I cringe when I read reactionary, exaggerated Islamophobia. You may have your reasons for doing so, and this is WmAD’s blog, but I am THANKFUL to the fullest that this does not represent an “ID” position, nor is related to ID in any meaningful way.

    Remember, ID is as much Islam friendly as it is Christianity friendy, as it is Deism friendly. Let’s not kick people out of the tent just yet guys.

    Again, I’m not going to defend the Kingdom of Islam or the Church, I don’t need to. But since I am a regular commenter here, I want to make explicit that these are views I do NOT share and apologize to any Muslim friends in cyberspace if this is offensive to you. It is offenseive to me as well, and I’m not Muslim.

  31. 31
    tribune7 says:

    Do you think/feel/know whether there exists any distinction between the average Muslim and ‘radical’ Muslims?

    I think there are a whole lot of people who happen to be Muslims who would be just content to live and let live. The Muslim women I’ve known, I’ve liked. I knew a Turk who was pretty normal.

    But I’ll admit that’s not an all encompassing experience and that I’m no expert.

    What troubles me, though, is the inability by Islamic leaders to condemn terrorism without qualification, Sharia law, and killing Christian converts.

    I’d also like to see them make it clear that those interpreting the Koran as allowing lying to non-Muslims are in the wrong.

    I’d also like to see them defend free speech — let the Jehovah’s Witnesses got door-to-door — in Mecca without fear of death. (I’d defend the right of Moslem missionaries to proseltyze in this country, as I suspect most on this board would.)

    Anyway, the more I learn of Islam, the less I like it.

  32. 32
    DaveScot says:

    Atom

    Of course this doesn’t represent ID theory. These are my personal opinions. I labeled it “off topic” pretty plainly. I’m not nearly as anti-Islam as say, Ann Coulter. Offhand can you think of anyone else here at UD who’s a fan of Ann besides me? As far as the tent goes I’ve never taken up not saying what I think to further an agenda and I’m not about to start now – that’s for politicians.

    So Atom, why don’t you tell me what you think about the quaint Islamic custom of stoning women to death for adultery. Personally I don’t want to be in the same tent with anyone willing to look the other way while that happens. But that’s just me.

  33. 33
    tribune7 says:

    Offhand can you think of anyone else here at UD who’s a fan of Ann besides me?

    Hey, I like Ann!

  34. 34
    DaveScot says:

    If it were a real threat, the only thing that would need be done to stop it would be to bomb Mecca. Muslims would lose faith..and Islam would cease to exist.

    Do you believe it’s really that easy?

  35. 35
    Borne says:

    DaveScot : “Islam is a disease and people like me are the cure.”

    I like that kind of direct response. Too many obsequious grovelers in Xianity these days.

    IMO – That’s one reason the Church is failing in it’s mission – lack of heroic courage in honesty when facing down lies.
    ————–
    mohammed.husain:

    Do I know any Muslims? I’ve known a few. Two of the 3 I knew personally were liars and thieves. The other didn’t really practice.

    The 1st 2 would lie to your face, knowing that you knew they were lying!!

    Al taqiyya mean anything to ya? With deceptive practices like that, how can anyone trust a Muslim?
    It’s not a slur but an honest question.

    I also have several friends who either live in Israel or have lived there.

    Most of them have been shot at. All of them knew someone or even whole families who were slaughtered by cowardly Islamics sniping from a safe distance and then bragging about the killings in the next day’s Palestinian news papers… Or they knew someone who was killed in a suicide bombing.

    How many Christians or Jews have you heard of that have committed suicide bombings against civilians for religious reasons?

    None? Gee, what a surprise.

    There is a right morality and a wrong one; and there is also a right religion and wrong ones.

    The rule of Allah is convert or die, the rule of Christ is “do as you would be done by, love your enemies…”.

    Do the math.

  36. 36
    Atom says:

    DS, I don’t want to get banned or moderated on here, so please allow me to speak freely.

    I simply stated that these are not MY opinions on Islam. I want to be sure to distance myself from this sort of anti-Muslim rhetoric and I think that since this blog represents ID in a lot of ways, to associate anti-Islam with ID is counter-productive.

    But to answer you question, the G-d of Torah also commands stoning to death for adultery. This is the G-d I serve, as does WmAD (as far as I know), so I can’t throw stones at Islam from within my own glass house. Nor would I want to.

  37. 37
    Atom says:

    How many Christians or Jews have you heard of that have committed suicide bombings against civilians for religious reasons?

    Not suicide bombings, but religiously motivated violence. (Abortion clinics, Christian Militias in other countries, etc) Again, I’m a believer and I stick up for my faith, but a spade is a spade.

  38. 38
    DaveScot says:

    Atom,

    Good gosh. You missed the more recent memo from God that said “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.”

    Got it? Write that down.

  39. 39
    Jehu says:

    Even the old testament injunction for stoning only allowed it where there were two or three witnesses to thee act. How many people commit adultry in front of two or three witnesses?

  40. 40
    DaveScot says:

    jehu

    How many? I don’t know. Evidently enough to convict and sentence this 13 year old girl to death by stoning.

    Don’t think it really happens?

    Then ask this girl in a video of a stoning. Address your question c/o Allah the Merciful because SHE WAS STONED TO DEATH AND IS DEAD NOW.

    Wake up America!

  41. 41
    antg says:

    C’mon Dave,

    This is just like judging Christianity by pointing to Fred Phelps and abortion bombers.

    ‘The boundary between good and evil does not lie at the borders of a country but cuts through each of our hearts’*

    *or something like that

  42. 42
    tribune7 says:

    This is just like judging Christianity by pointing to Fred Phelps and abortion bombers.

    If Fred Phelps ran the country you might have a point. And if abortion bombers were not being prosecuted you’d have a point. I don’t even think Pat Robertson has defended abortion bombers.

    Phelps church has 150 members. There are more people who believe that the Air Force has aliens on ice in Nevada than belong to Phelps’ church.

  43. 43
  44. 44
    mohammed.husain says:

    You guys sound a lot like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and the loonies that you all criticize so much for their fanatical hatred of religion. It’s truly ironic. Even if we speak of histories, the history of the Christian West is one filled with violence. We have the inquisition, (lets not forget that the Jews fled to Muslim countries for refuge then), we have the sectarian wars of europe, we have the years of colonization, we have nuclear war, the holocaust and the atom bomb (which together contribute to the bloodiest and most destructive century ever known to man), and now these bogus wars on terror, which are really a guise for expanding US hegemony. Given all that, I am mature enough to distinguish between religion and its uses for various ends. And this isnt always easy given that Christianity has been complicit in a lot of the aformentioned violence. All this I guess is easy to overlook, so long as the subject of attack is the other.
    Your understanding of Islam guys is childish. Knowing Iranians who fled the revolution doesnt count as knowing Muslims, unless they still practice Islam by the way. If you want to really learn something about Islam go to the largest Muslim organization in this country: ISNA. By the way, its led by a a woman.

  45. 45
    antg says:

    You guys sound a lot like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and the loonies that you all criticize so much for their fanatical hatred of religion.

    Exactly. Dawkins just goes one god further.

  46. 46
    mohammed.husain says:

    The hatred of Islam many of the commentators share begs one question, why is Islam growing at a rapid pace in this country, if in fact it is as evil as many of you make it out to be? The growth of Islam in this country has a lot to do conversion as it does with immigration. White Americans, Black Americans, Latino Americans are converting to Islam. The most prominent leaders of the American Muslim communtiy have converted to the religion. This should make many of you think twice, when you assume that the values of Islam are inhuman or diametrically opposed to western values.

  47. 47
    mohammed.husain says:

    Here is a link to an interview with a prominent Muslim leader once known as Tim Winter, now Shaykh Abdul Hakim Murad. It’s hosted by ABC. Maybe it will give you all some insight into why westerners are turning to Islam.
    http://www.abc.net.au/sundayni.....237986.htm

  48. 48
    Atom says:

    Guys,
    I’m not going to argue defending Islam or The Church on this thread, I feel I’ve said what I needed to say.

    But to mohammed.husain specifically, and muslims in general, I hope the few of us on here willing to speak up were able to show you that not all ID proponents have hate towards Islam and/or Muslims. Some of us do actually welcome Muslims into the community as we welcome Jews, Agnostics, Buddhists, Hindus or anyone else of any faith who wants to talk science.

  49. 49
    tribune7 says:

    mohammed, Why do some insist on making arguments of moral equivilancy?

    You didn’t address any of our concerns. Is lying to non-Muslim’s wrong? Is killing Christian converts wrong?

    lets not forget that the Jews fled to Muslim countries for refuge then

    Up until the Nazi conquests — and the Nazies were anti-Christian and pro Muslim — Christian Europe had by far the largest Jewish population in the world.

  50. 50
    tribune7 says:

    I hope the few of us on here willing to speak up were able to show you that not all ID proponents have hate towards Islam and/or Muslims.

    OK, let’s take Islam out of it. Is it wrong to lie? Is it wrong to kill people if the convert to another religion?

    Is an inability to condemn lying and killing grounds for suspicion?

  51. 51
    mohammed.husain says:

    Atom, yes thank you. You have demonstrated that, and to you and antg, I am very grateful. You both have been the lone voices of reason.

    Tribune, the nazis were by no means pro-Muslim. You probably dont know this, but in the nazi concentration camps, the jews who were ready to be exterminated were called “musulman.” Thats the persianized word for Muslim. What this should tell you is that Muslims occupied the lowest place in the European conscious, lower even than the Jews in Nazi Germany. For proof of this refer to Victor Frakl’s excellent book, entitled Man’s Search for Meaning.

    Of course lying is condemned. Taqiyya is prudential dissumlation, concealing one’s identity under threat to life or property. It’s a doctrine only recognized by a minority of Muslims, since that minority was persecuted by the majority. As for killing an innocent life, its flatly condemned. The inviolability of life is stated in the Quran. Paraphrased, the verse states that “To kill one innocent life is as if one has killed all of humanity.” There is a lot of wisdom in this verse. Once we justify the killing of one innocent, we enter upon a slippery slope in which anyone’s life is jeapordized, not to mention that we dehumanize ourselves in the process.

  52. 52
    mohammed.husain says:

    Now, in return for responding to your objections tribune please read this interview and also respond. That would be fair, I think.
    http://www.abc.net.au/sundayni.....237986.htm

  53. 53
    mohammed.husain says:

    btw, its not about trying to use arguments about more equivalency. Its more about showing you that, with your understanding of what Islam is, you are unable to explain certain phenomenon, like that of White American conversion, for instance. You are led to believe, with your current understanding, absurdities about those who accept Islam and also those who are devout Muslims. The absurdity of those conclusions should be reson to review one’s understanding of the religion, to better explain these phenomenon.

    If we look at the Muslim community in the United States they are one of the most successful minority communities in this country. They are also a very devout community. They are law abiding. Now why dissasociate their religion from their success in this situation, and associate religion with their failure in other situations abroad? There seems to be an inconsistency, that should make people rethink their prejudice about this religion.

  54. 54
    mohammed.husain says:

    The most common objection is well, the terrorists act in the name of religion. This is true. However, one should understand that in the Muslim world there is no separation between church and state like there is in the West. Everyone who seeks legitimacy for whatever cause, no matter how mundane or how otherworldly appeals to religion, because religion is the source of authority and legitimacy. Since everyone appeals to religion, it makes religion less insightful a tool for political analysis, and so one must look beyond the rhetoric of groups involved with violence in the Muslim world.

  55. 55
    mohammed.husain says:

    I think I am done here. It was nice chatting with you all. May God guide all of us to His truth, even if we may be adverse to it.

  56. 56
  57. 57
    tribune7 says:

    Winter–There’s a big crisis now in New Testament scholarship, over whether the Christ of faith is actually the same person as the Jesus of history,

    The New Testament is a very well-sourced book and there really is not crisis in scholarship.,

    There are, however, secularists who hate the Christ described in the Gospel and they have been trying to undermine tranditional Christianity for a couple of centuries.

    It’s what the Da Vinci Code is based.

    It’s not really scholarship.

  58. 58
    DaveScot says:

    Hey Mo,

    If you want to really learn something about Islam go to the largest Muslim organization in this country: ISNA. By the way, its led by a a woman.

    I visited the ISNA website ( http://www.isna.org ) and I’m not sure what point you wanted to make about it. Please explain.

  59. 59
    rockyr says:

    Dave, It’s good to be patriotic, but one needs to be also rational and humble.

    “Islam is a disease and people like me are the cure. Asking me to approach it with humility is like asking me to approach cancer with humility. Not a chance.”

    People in this forum have pointed out that Islam as religion is not “disease” or “cancer.” It is the irrational Islamic fanatics who cannot be controlled even by their own normal fellow-Muslims, who are the problem. The Pope has learned this lesson the hard way, and, to his credit, he realized the role of humility.

    There was an excellent column by none other than Phillip E. Johnson dealing with this topic, see:

    http://touchstonemag.com/archi.....8-06-011-c

    BTW, we need the Muslims on our side in this battlle against evolution!

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