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Uncommon Descent Contest Question 8: Do the “new atheists” help or hurt the cause of Darwinism?

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The prize?:  A free copy of Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell (Harper One, 2009).

Judged: Go here for winner.

You may wish to note this discussion on the new atheists and the problem of evil.

Admin Note: Re contest 7: Endoplasmic Messenger needs to send me a real world address at oleary@sympatico.ca, in order to collect his prize. It will NOT be added to a database for any further purpose.

My own view – and not meant to prejudice yours:

That is a fascinating subject, and one on which I have written. But let philosopher Michael Ruse have the floor now, complaining about the new atheists:

“Why I think the new atheists are a bloody disaster” In the past few years, we have seen the rise and growth of a group that the public sphere has labeled the “new atheists” – people who are aggressively pro-science, especially pro-Darwinism, and violently anti-religion of all kinds, especially Christianity but happy to include Islam and the rest. Actually the arguments are not that “new,” but no matter – the publicity has been huge. Distinctive of this group, although well known to anyone who studies religion and the way in which sects divide and proliferate, is the fact that (with the possible exception of the Catholic Church) nothing incurs their wrath than those who are pro-science but who refuse to agree that all and every kind of religious belief is wrong, pernicious, and socially and personally dangerous. Recently, it has been the newly appointed director of the NIH, Francis Collins, who has been incurring their hatred. Given the man’s scientific and managerial credentials – completing the HGP under budget and under time for a start – this is deplorable, if understandable since Collins is a devout Christian.

I am not a devout Christian, yet if anything, the things said against me are worse.

Oh? Indeed? Why, exactly, is what is said about Francis Collins “understandable?” Why are atheists given a worldwide passport and “get out of jail free” card for bad behaviour? Anyway, Jerry Coyne replied, removing all doubt about the atheist agenda.

I have never figured Ruse out. He was raised a Quaker and lost his faith in his early twenties. I know for a fact that he hangs around the ID guys. Not that there is anything the matter with that, except that he has said,

… I think intelligent-design theory and its companions are nasty, cramping, soul-destroying reversions to the more unfortunate aspects of 19th century America. Although I am not a Christian, I look upon these ideas as putrid scabs on the body of a great religion …

 But he was at the head table at a dinner given in honour of Phillip Johnson in 2004. I was there.

I suspect that Ruse never figured himself out either. He is not like Larry Krauss, a determined atheist, who dines on well-fed “Catholic” profs who never get their rotting ships in tackle, and maybe don’t even care, as long as the taxpayer or the devout believer fronts their bills anyway.

No, Ruse wants us to know that he somehow cares about the people he really, obviously, despises, while he explains, in hearty “English” terms, why these new atheists are a bloody disaster.

But are they really? If so, to whom? Not to the new totalitarians in government, of whom many of us have had a way bigger dose than we are prepared to stomach. And this new totalitarianism advances in the name of theories of government birthed explicitly in atheism.

Still, despite Ruse, I can think of three reasons the new atheists could indeed be a bloody disaster – but mainly for themselves:

1. People realize that the new atheists’ theories are not true. Consider the endless kvetching from tax-funded science orgs that we don’t believe the crap they feed us about Darwinism. That’s because we know something is wrong. So we are all wrong and they are all right? We’ve heard that enough times from tax-funded orgs before, when the evidence just didn’t add up, to raise suspicion.

2. Many Darwinists, like Richard Dawkins, invested heavily in Darwinism’s unfortunate offspring, “evolutionary psychology”, a predictable disaster, given what we know today about the plasticity of the human brain. Still, every yap, whine, or therapy scream in the popular press’s weekend “Relationships” section somehow “proves” [hush! hush! respectful silence here!] Evolution! That brings the whole discipline of evolutionary biology – if it is indeed a discipline – into disrepute. Significantly, evolutionary biologists rarely denounce this nonsense. Would medical doctors refuse to denounce a supposed treatment based on “space rays”? So why the continued silence?

3. Ruse seems to think that some form of Christianity would be compatible with Darwinism. This is false and known to be so by almost every serious Christian. No form of Darwinism is compatible with Christianity or any other type of theism, because Darwin developed his theory precisely to rule that out. His serious followers understand that. Telling people things that they know are false is hardly a good way to convince them. (Note: Of course, there are numerous confused, nice, well-meaning reverends and bible school profs who do not understand this, and just want everyone to be “nice.” I have dealt with enough of them myself.)

But is Ruse vs. Coyne just a pretend squabble, a good cop/bad cop routine? I think so myself. Just a way of distracting attention and getting nice, well-meaning reverends and bible school profs to agree with Ruse and not Coyne, and – above all – not to see the big picture. Like taking candy from a baby, actually.

Anyway, that’s my view, but I am not in the contest. I only mail the prizes . The floor is yours. Here’s the question again:

Uncommon Descent Contest Question 8: Do the “new atheists” help or hurt the cause of Darwinism?

Comments
DiBagno @ 61- A hypothesis, you say? Sir John Huxley writes, "The point to make about Darwin's theory of evolution is that it is no longer a theory, but a fact. No serious scientist would deny the fact that evolution has occurred, just as he would not deny the fact that the earth goes around the sun." (Tax, Sol, Ed. "Evolution After Darwin," Issues in Evolution, Chicago University Press, 1960, Vol. 3, p. 41.) "Today the theory of evolution is about as much open to doubt as the theory that the earth goes round the sun." - Richard Dawkins The difference between a hypothesis and a theory lies in the proof (or lack of).Barb
August 19, 2009
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BillB: I am pretty sure that you are not ignorant of the main situaiton on the ground [observe your rhetorical strategy of next question, without any acknowledgement on issues already discussed], so I have no desitre to play along with a string of leading questions. Especially, since I have long since given you the relevant answer. For, since the institutionally dominant school of macroevolutionary thought is a priori materialist -- even trying to redefine science in alignment with that worldview premise -- the relevant issue is the paradigm that discusses evolution as a result of matter & energy in motion across time due to forces of chance and blind mechanical necessity only. That is the reason why for decades even in the teeth of very scant results, it has been ever so confidently maintained that abiognesis a la evolutionary materialistic scenarios "must have" happened. So, it is very relevant to speak truth to the dominant powers of that paradigm, that the evidence is simply not there: the Darwin-style tree of life has no root. Further, since the issue is that of complex functional information origination, it is also relevant to point out the only known source of such entities: intelligence, and the practically insuperable search space challenge that faces chance + necessity scenarios. Moreover, the same basic cluster of challenges extends tot he origination of major body plans. GEM of TKI PS: All of this is discussed in richer detail in my always linked through my name.kairosfocus
August 19, 2009
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StephenB said,
As a Darwinist, you are part of the “let’s NOT move on” contingent.
Me, a Darwinist? Hardly. There goes StephenB, onlookers, making unsupported assertions again. StephenB also asserted,
Do you know of any prominent Darwinst who has publically [or privately] acknowledged the possibility of error?
I say, any scientist who submits her work to peer review is painfully aware of the possibility of error. Having committed her manuscript to the mails, she can be confident of having her errors pointed out by her peers (and superiors).Adel DiBagno
August 19, 2009
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I said,
“Materialists,” at least those of the empiricist (scientific) stripe, are not looking for “Truth.”
StephenB replied,
On the one hand, they declare there is no such thing as truth; on the other hand, they insist that they have already found it with Darwin. Consistency is not one of their stronger points.
Onlookers, note, StephenB is making unsupported assertions again. I say that "they," (meaning empiricists) are consistent in considering ALL empirical propositions about the universe to be hypotheses. Darwinian evolution has been, is now, and will always be...[drumroll]... an hypothesis!Adel DiBagno
August 19, 2009
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Please, please will someone show me where any darwinist, evolutionary biologist, methodological naturalist, or researcher into abiognesis has posulated that life on earth started with humungous great proteins or nucleic acid sequences. Until someone does show me that, I regard this whole improbability argument as a man of the most fragile and transparent straw. So far as I can work out, those dreadful atheist scientists seem to think that things kicked off small - and even small molecules can be active. None but IDers have suggested that life couldn't begin unless large proteins were assembled ex nihilodamitall
August 19, 2009
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Allow me to explain what i mean by the above. ID wants a base of personally motivated and sincerely interested fallows and advocates. ID does not want a social "fad" situation. People like BIll and other are already making a good living selling books and etc- but what I think real ID advocated really want is for the theory of ID to get in the driver seat of science and make a real difference in how science is done and what is produced by it- at least to a similar level that Darwin's theory did. SO I think the best think IDist's can do is make sure the theory is very explicit and honestly represented- and conflated with creationism or pseudoscience. The media is as dangerous for ID as it is beneficial for it. So the best think ID advocates can do is find people who are sincerely interested in it and explain it to them-. Kind of in the way that Jesus ministered- go out and offer it those who are open minded and want to consider it. That will help keep the snakes- who would sell ID down the river and embarrass it for monetary gain- away from the theory and it's progress. The media can be very caustic to the search for truth - and that needs to be kept in mind. I can tell you I am sincerely interested in how ID may be used to find treatments for complex diseases- and how it might be used to develop new technologies in general. Also as a Christian I sincerely think it helps to bring people back to the faith because it presents them with a logical scientific based path supporting belief- and to me- and i think most people- it is essential that one's faith be reconcilable with their personal critical thinking. So my point is that ID is like a precious valuable- it needs to be handled with great care- and through that effort it will continue to appreciate.Frost122585
August 19, 2009
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BillB, That depends on how you define evolution. Are we talking about "unguided evolution"? If so then obviously the answer is yes. Are we talking about common ancestry? If so the answer is logically no- though one may hold a religious view that points in a different direction- but that is not related to ID but to religious commitment. And as far as evolution just being defined as "change over time" it is not necessary that life have a non-teleological origin for this kind of evolution to exist. SO ID can go with "universal common ancestry" and or "change over time"- but an evolutionary concept of and "unguided origin of life" necessarily requires a non-teleological history. So it depends on your definition of evolution.Frost122585
August 19, 2009
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KF: Please answer the question: For evolution to occur is it necessary that life has a non-teleological origin?BillB
August 19, 2009
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BillB: On points: 1 --> There is no one definition of "evolution" but, as already noted, the relevant dominant one is evolutionary materialistic. That is abundantly plain, to all but he willfully obtuse. 2 --> I have made no probability calculations, but fraction of config space accessibility ones. And, the mathematics involved is not a matter of scant data points, your turnabout rhetoric attempt notwithstanding. (Onlookers, observe that BillB is unable to show my mathematics wrong, and has projected a strawmannised probability calculation on a challenge of accessing a significant fraction of a config space. I need make no probability calculations to show that our observed universe is incapable of accessing sufficient of the configs of just 1,0000 bits, to make a difference: a blind search of 1 in 10^150 or less of a space is simply not a credible search.) 3 --> the issue on evolutionary materialistic models of origin of life is as has been recently described by Shapiro: ______________ >> The analogy that comes to mind is that of a golfer, who having played a golf ball through an 18-hole course, then assumed that the ball could also play itself around the course in his absence. He had demonstrated the possibility of the event; it was only necessary to presume that some combination of natural forces (earthquakes, winds, tornadoes and floods, for example) could produce the same result, given enough time. No physical law need be broken for spontaneous RNA formation to happen [NB: the same holds for the requisites for RS's favoured metabolism first model] , but the chances against it are so immense, that the suggestion implies that the non-living world had an innate desire to generate RNA. The majority of origin-of-life scientists who still support the RNA-first theory either accept this concept (implicitly, if not explicitly) or feel that the immensely unfavorable odds were simply overcome by good luck. >> _________________ 3 --> And, last, it is not that "research" is continuing, but hat evolutionary materialism is imposed ont eh research a priori, through so-called methodological naturalism. So, the facts are not being allowed to speak for themselves. Lewontin aptly illustrates the problem: ________________ >> We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. >> ___________________ 4 --> I beg to suggest that a better way would be to stop censoring science, and provide good reason why we should turn away from the obvious import of the only observed source of FSCI, the massive observed FSCI in life, and the search space challenge for chance + blind necessity to otherwise get to the required von Neumannn self-replicators. ++++++++++ G'day. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 19, 2009
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The "new atheism" which, despite its moniker, is nothing but the old atheism with its points made more forcefully, hurts Darwinism in a couple of different ways. First, the theme of the new atheists' books. Roy Masters of the Foundation for Human Understanding writes, "Either you become what you hate or you fall victim to what you hate." (http://www.fhu.com/articles/hate1.html) Hatred of all things religious is the trademark of the new atheism. Not content with merely acquiescing to the fact that others have faith, they seek to destroy all faiths. They provide no new evidence beyond the Crusades and the Inquisition (both of which have been explained by theologians for years) for their hatred of religious faith. Secondly, the new atheism hurts Darwinism by connecting the two together. Darwin himself seemed to vacillitate somewhere between atheism and agnosticism, but his loss of faith should not mean the loss of everyone's faith. Both Dr. Francis Collins and Dr. Gerald Schroeder have written books explaining how evolution and theology can be compatible. Fundamentalists should have learned by now that screaming "You're going to burn in hell!" at other people does not draw them closer to God or Christ. Similarly, the new atheists should learn that screaming, "There is no God and you're stupid if you believe in one!" does not draw anyone closer to their belief system, nor does it make anyone more strongly support Darwinism.Barb
August 19, 2009
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2 –> The calculation of 10^80 atoms accessing new states ...
Umm, I'm not really sure you understood at all. You have a habit of making grand claims about self replicators and probabilities which look to me like gross extrapolation of scant data points. The correct answer to the scientific question of how life arose is "we are unsure, research is on-going" not "we are unsure, therefore design" The reason there is an OOL field of research is to try and answer these questions, not to decide that, because we don't yet have a definitive answer, design should be inserted as the definitive answer.BillB
August 19, 2009
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KF: I'm talking about the scientific theory of evolution. Please answer the question: For evolution to occur is it necessary that life has a non-teleological origin?BillB
August 19, 2009
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BillB: I will comment rather briefly as follows: 1 --> Evolutionary materialism is what is usually meant by the "evolutionists" of the ilk of Lewontin and Dawkins, who dominate the relevant institutions, when they speak of evolution in the big sense. Matter cannot have purpose, so it is inherently a-teleological, just as it is inherently a-moral (which derives from purpose). And that has been known since Plato. 2 --> The calculation of 10^80 atoms accessing new states -- in whatever chain of configurations forming a trajectory in the phase space of the cosmos as a whole -- per 10^-43 s, is a matter of quantifying the number of states that would be accessed by the cosmos across the working life of the cosmos [~ 10^25 s, ~ 10^17 y, millions of billions of years]. That is how many states can be searched by the cosmos, which renders irrelevant the question of how many possible alternative worlds we could have. [Already, something that stores 1,000 bits is capable of accessing more than the square of the number of states that will be accessed. (My software HP RPN calculator would smoke my PC on trying to work out the number of in principle possible configurations for 10^80 atoms!)] 3 --> On the empirical evidence, the minimal genome for OBSERVED independent -- non parasitic -- life is 600 - 1,000 kbits. It is those who would propose viable life that would lead on to that which we see, who have a burden of proof to show the viability of a chain that starts much smaller than that. And, they need to empirically warrant it, without gross extrapolations from scant data points. 4 --> So, one cannot simply hypothesise on no empirics that somehow, informationally simple self-replicating life forms can form without reference to empirical data; and use that to dismiss what the observed data are telling us. remember, such a "simple" self-replicating life needs to embed a von Neuman self-replicating entity: blueprint, interpreting system for it [including codes and algorithms . . . how do these arise spontaneously?], and machinery to give physical execution to such. 5 --> I can assure you that in the experience of micro-controller designers, you will not cram that much down into 1,000 bits: not just the operating system and applications, but the code to make the "chips" etc as well, and the actuators and sensors etc. Indeed, 100's of k bits is the sort of ballpark that has been arrived at for those who have tried to theoretically or empirically pare down life to simplest plausible or observed form. on knockout studies, 300 k or so base pairs is the level where auto-destruction begins to take over. GEM of TKI PS: Let us not forget the purpose of this thread: a contest.kairosfocus
August 19, 2009
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KF: Questions for you - please try and answer them succinctly: For evolution to occur is it necessary that life has a non-teleological origin? Secondly a proposition; if there are on the order of 10^80 atoms in the universe and we divide them up into groups of 1,000 we get 10^77 groups of atoms, each assumed to be capable of being arranged in more ways than can be described by a 1 kbit string. If each group changes configuration at a snail-like 1 change per second then the universe can 'search' 10^77 configurations per second. Can a variable self replicator be constructed from 1000 atoms? How many types of self replicator is it possible to construct from 1000 atoms? Where are these located in configuration space relative to the likely starting state of the universe? Without answers to these questions how can you know if, even at fantastically small odds, self replicators couldn't form due to the workings of the laws of physics.BillB
August 19, 2009
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Mr Bass: Mr Darwin's only diagram in Origin was the tree of life. That tree, plainly, had a root; which on the theory is the material root-cause of the later diversity which is so celebrated in Origin and since. That root, however, is missing now and has been consistently missing since 1858 - 9, when the theory of evolution was first promulgated. (Apart from question-begging speculations and spectacularly strained extrapolations.) Thus, this crucial gap is the single weakest point of the theory, as spontaneous generation of life -- after a long run in natural history -- has been in discredit over these 150 and more years; ever since it became increasingly evident on much close observation, that cell-based life comes from previous life. (While Pasteur put the final nails in the coffin, in fact similar experiments had been carried out by Redi in C17.) The eagerness with which almost irrelevant results such as the Miller-Urey experiments -- the assumed reducing atmosphere is not credibly realistic, and the formation of a few monomers does not explain the complex organisation of life based on information-rich macromolecular machines -- has been latched on to and used as a misleading icon, shows just how telling the gap at the root is. So, while it is rhetorically convenient for advocates of Darwinism to be able to say that technically the theory of evolution proper does not address origin of life, that is irrelevant to the importance of the issue the gap points to. And, that gap -- the problem of origin of functionally specific, organised, information-rich systems of life -- extends directly from origin of first life to origin of major body plans across dozens of top-tier body plans. The only observationally warranted mechanism for the origin of the required algorithmically functional, code-based information is intelligent design. And, we have excellent reason to see that once we pass about 500 - 1,000 bits of information storing capacity, mechanisms based on chance and/or blind mechanical necessity (the alternatives to intelligence) will be swamped by the combinatorial explosion, on the gamut of our observed universe. For the atoms of the universe,viewed as a search engine, across the thermodynamically plausible lifespan of that observed cosmos, would only go through about 10^150 states. That is less than 1 in 10^150 of the configuration space specified by 1,000 bits. In short, the only known mechanism capable of and observed to create such levels of FSCI as we see in life -- 600 - 1,000 kbits for first life, 10's - 100's of megabits for major body plans -- is intelligence. So, intelligent design is the best explanation for origin of life and its body-plan level biodiversity. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
August 19, 2009
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Oramus Like I said, Darwin's book is called The Origin of SPECIES, not The Origin of LIFE. If you wanna keep making the same mistake and then spend several paragraphs of text in a lame attempt at justification, that's your business, I reckon, but as I made clear in my previous post, I am well aware that the origin of life is a separate issue. You are merely trying to force the issue at this point by demanding a specific interpretation of meaning. Well, again, that's your business.
I was just throwing salt down on that slippery sidewalk you apparently slid on anyway.
Gotta love the irony.C Bass
August 19, 2009
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Folks: Isn't this a contest? Shouldn't we focus on putting up mini essays that sum up the matter, from whatever view? GEM of TKI PS: my crude little suggestion for such a summary: ____________ The New Atheists [NA's] are a decidedly mixed "blessing" for Darwinism:
1] On the one hand, they have been able to galvanise a degree of popular enthusiasm in support of the Darwinism-inspired worldview of Evolutionary Materialism, that has probably not been seen since the days of Huxley. Days when Queen Victoria was still the reigning majesty and the sun never set on the British Empire. 2] On the other hand, their sophomoric bombast, village atheist level rhetoric and just plain crudity and nastiness -- spell that: "Blasphemy challenge" -- have opened many eyes to just how poor the rationale for atheism, evolutionary materialism and indeed darwinian macro-evolution is. (In short, extrapolations from oscillating moth colouration, millimetric changes in finch beaks and bacterial resistance to antibiotics doesn't cut it as a well-grounded explanation of the origin of the cosmos, of life in it, and of its information-rich, complex diversity of organisation and functionality.)
However, the emergence of the NA movement and the rise of its chief exponents to public prominence and the New York Times bestseller list clearly shows that Darwinism is not only a dominant institutional scientific paradigm, but that -- angry rebuttals to the contrary notwithstanding -- it is and has always been a deeply controversial scientific theory. One that (ever since the publication of The Mystery of Life's Origin by Thaxton et al 1984, Evolution, a Theory in Crisis by Denton in 1985, and Darwin on Trial by Johnson in 1991, then the rise of Behe and Dembski et al in the late 1990s) has seen an ever-rising renewed challenge by a new generation of sophisticated scientific, mathematical and philosophical design thinkers. The New Atheists, in the end, are thus a reactionary movement; one that angrily seeks to discredit challengers to an old, now slowly waning order, using ruthless, "take no prisoners," agit-prop level rhetoric. And that is why their cause will increasingly falter and fail. For, in addition to their own obvious deficiencies -- and the backlash that eventually comes to those who resort to slander, strawmen, demonisation, conspiracy theories [spell that: "theocratic tyranny"] and dismissals -- Darwinism and the broader project of Evolutionary Materialism are plainly dying as a new era of sophisticated design thought dawns for science and our wider civlisation. ___________kairosfocus
August 19, 2009
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Denyse, I'm just curious. Have you or do you know of anyone that has calculated how much grant money ID could be expected to receive, once they have been diverted from existing evolutionary biology and other labs? I figure we might as well start the planning phase since the foundation has solidified and cured for the proper time. We can start the scaffolding anytime. Let me see now, Chicago, London, and hmm, what's the name of that town Paul Zachary tinkers in?Oramus
August 18, 2009
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C Bass, No apologies necessary. I was just throwing salt down on that slippery sidewalk you apparently slid on anyway. Contrary to ND assertions, you cannot break down the development of life into separate, unconnected events. It is the same logical problems pro-choicers have when discussing abortion. Pro-choicers would have you believe that the embryo, zygote, and fetus are separate events in the gestation of a developing child and they can pinpoint the event and time that life starts. This is logically impossible as embryo, zygote and fetus are phases of a single event. We can only logically conclude that life starts at the first cell division. Likewise, the origin of the human species cannot be pinpointed to a specific location and time. Hence, the logical conclusion is that the human species, as with all other animals, cannot be said to have 'originated' at some point along a line of development(ND continues to miscomprehend phase development as 'point of origin). Rathe, it can only be understood to have originated at the moment of abiogenesis. Therefore, one cannot 'properly' understand the origin of any species without understanding the origin of life. Now, if you good folks, seeing as you have had 150 years, and multi-millions of dollars in financial support to make headway here without success, would be good enough to sign over your grant monies to Dembski, Meyer, Behe, et al, I think we'll see some daylight in our lifetime.Oramus
August 18, 2009
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Oramus No "correction" is necessary, for I neither claimed nor implied that the Darwinian paradigm explained "how life came into existence" -- that is merely your reading into my statements more than what is actually there. I merely stated that the Darwinian model and Christianity had diametrically opposed explanations for the existence of Homo Sapiens specifically, not necessarily all life in general. I am fully aware that the Darwinian model doesn't attempt to explain the origin of life, but Darwin's first book was titled The Origin of Species, of which Homo Sapiens is one. Since I apparently need to spell things out in excruciating detail, the Darwinian model says that we (Homo Sapiens) are "just another animal", the result of random copying errors in the genome culled by natural selection, a product of a blind, undirected process that definitely did not have us as a goal of any kind, whereas the Christian explanation states that we are set apart from the rest of the animals (and plants), that we have dominion over them, that we are created in God's image, which rather strongly suggests that our form was deliberately specified and not left to a blind, indifferent process. I apologize if my use of the word "existence" tripped you up, but the word was in reference to us as a species, not to all life in general. After all, the word "existence" was preceeded by the word "our", which would seem to limit the scope to Homo Sapiens, one would think.C Bass
August 18, 2009
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----Adel Dibagno: “Materialists,” at least those of the empiricist (scientific) stripe, are not looking for “Truth.” On the one hand, they declare there is no such thing as truth; on the other hand, they insist that they have already found it with Darwin. Consistency is not one of their stronger points. ----"They are testing hypotheses. If their tests support their hypotheses, they move on." They are, or should be, trying to get closer and closer to the truth, which is why they move on. If there was no truth to pursue, there would be no reason to "move on." Without a destination [truth], there is no reason to undertake the journey [science and reason]. Under those circumstances, one stopping place is a good as any other. ----"Moving on is key, whereas the anti-empiricist camp wants closure (are you not certain of you viewpoint?), and is content to stop at whatever resting point provides comfort and satisfaction." It is the Darwinists who chose to stop moving by declaring that the matter has been settled once and for all. It is ID that seeks to move on. As a Darwinist, you are part of the "let's NOT move on" contingent. ---"(are you not certain of you viewpoint?)." No one can logically be certain of a scientific viewpoint, which is why Dembski himself has stated explicitly that "he could be wrong." Do you know of any prominent Darwinst who has publically [or privately] acknowledged the possibility of error? ID science has never claimed absolute certitude; it is, by definition an "inference to the best explanation." Darwinists, on the other hand, cling to certainly like a security blanket, persecuting dissenters, misrepresenting opponents' viewpoints, and militating against reason itself.StephenB
August 18, 2009
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fbeckwith, Surely you know better, being something of a philosopher. "Materialists," at least those of the empiricist (scientific) stripe, are not looking for "Truth." They are testing hypotheses. If their tests support their hypotheses, they move on. If their test do not support their hypotheses, they move on. Moving on is key, whereas the anti-empiricist camp wants closure (are you not certain of you viewpoint?), and is content to stop at whatever resting point provides comfort and satisfaction.Adel DiBagno
August 18, 2009
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---Sal Gal: "I want to see a coherent physics of intelligent creation of information out of nothing before allowing IDers to invoke information creation in explanations of living things." Perhaps you would also like to see a coherent physics of burglary before allowing the analyst to conclude that a ransacked house did not occur as a result of a tornadao. ----"The longstanding problem of IDers is that they repeatedly lunge straight at the jugular of Darwinism. They rarely take the time to lay the groundwork they need." The longstanding problem of Darwinists is that they cannot differentiate between a presupposition and an inference, a motive and a method, or a mechanical law and a creative act of intelligence.StephenB
August 18, 2009
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Oh, one more thing. The new atheists apparently believe that their view is true. But "true" is not a material property. It is a property of an idea. But an idea in relation to what? The universe? But ideas are not in the same relation to things as are things to each other. I can say that my pen is next to my computer. But I have no idea what a materialist means when he says that this idea (an immaterial entity) is a a true (an immaterial property) description of everything (the entire material universe). So, according to the materialist he has an idea (an immaterial entity) that claims that the only things that exist are material things. That means that the idea itself is false based on itself.fbeckwith
August 18, 2009
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If Peter Townsend were here, he would say, "Meet the new atheists; same as the old atheists."fbeckwith
August 18, 2009
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Megan’s “talking donkey” meme showing up in a thread about Dawkinsharrismyers! How ironic is that? The correct answer, of course, is that they help the cause. After all, what could be more impressive than a three-headed talking donkey? Let’s face it: the disinterested super-rational scientist just doesn’t cut it anymore. The hearts of The People are no longer likely to be moved by pronouncements from alien-like beings who speak in a dull monotone, write incomprehensible stilted prose, and do not appear to have any human feeling; i.e., your father’s scientist. But talking jackasses! Who could help being moved by something like that? “Science” never looked like this before. This is something new, something completely unexpected. It turns out that scientists are capable of passion after all—for atheism! Who knew? Look around. Dawkinsharrismyers are in sync with a national trend. There was a time when we read articles by economists to help us fall asleep on Sunday afternoons. It was better than golf. Now Paul Krugman has proven that frenetic braying not only stirs people up but can even get you a column in the New York Times! And what about Keith Olberman? Remember the days when newsmen were soothing and wanted nothing more than to convince us how sincere they were while they were reporting the latest three-alarm fire? Those days are gone, my friend. Now newsmen ARE the three-alarm fire. Now I know what you’re thinking. How can acting like a jackass help the cause of atheism with the masses? It can't; but maybe it’s time to let you in on a dirty little secret of the publishing industry. Dawkinsharrismyers only has to fool .5% of the population into buying their books in order to have a “New York Times blockbuster.” Throw in fawning approbation from the mainstream press, and talking donkeys can be a media phenomenon! You’ll see their faces plastered everywhere for months at a time. After all, how do you measure success? As for “new atheism” itself: non-starter. Killed by design.allanius
August 18, 2009
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Sal Gal, If ID accepts "miracles" then "Miracles" would be part of the "how" the design arose. ID is about the design itself. We don't really care exactly how- all we need to know is that nature, operating freely couldn't have done it. Then we set out to study the design in question. Also to refute Dembski all you have to do is demonstrate that nature, operating freely can give rise to information. BTW there is ID groundwork. And there is plenty of literature that explains it- including "Signature in the Cell".Joseph
August 18, 2009
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Oramus: Dembski has finally said outright that intelligence creates information. If you regard information as physical, creation of information is just as miraculous as creation of matter and energy. That is why I say that ID includes "and then a miracle happens" in its explanations. I can see no practical way for empirical science to acknowledge miracles. The philosophers of science who push ID deflect this issue, preferring to speak instead of the heuristic value of assuming design in study of biological systems. I want to see a coherent physics of intelligent creation of information out of nothing before allowing IDers to invoke information creation in explanations of living things. The longstanding problem of IDers is that they repeatedly lunge straight at the jugular of Darwinism. They rarely take the time to lay the groundwork they need.Sal Gal
August 18, 2009
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The new atheists hurt their cause for the same reasons all other fundamentalists hurt their respective causes: they make no attempt to hide their disdain for opposing views and are therefore very obviously unpleasant. For good or ill, that's all that matters in the battle for public opinion. Ruse's view of them may have a personal slant to it as well. The NA's get a lot of camera/newsprint time which may irk someone like Ruse who seems to be both a decent enough guy and somewhat better versed on the issues the NA's harp about.lpadron
August 18, 2009
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C Bass, Correction: Anyone that puts 'credence' in 'darwinian evolutionary mechanisms' will tell you that they are not explaining how life came into existence. That's abiogenesis, a totally different animal! There is aaaaabsolutely no linkage whatsoever. It's hard to keep it straight I know. But it IS very important to remember. Read my lips: NDE and Abio did NOT, I repeat, did not have relations :)
Please explain how one could be a “serious” advocate of two contradictory explanations for our existence.
Oramus
August 18, 2009
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