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Uncommon Descent Contest Question 8: Do the “new atheists” help or hurt the cause of Darwinism?

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The prize?:  A free copy of Stephen Meyer’s Signature in the Cell (Harper One, 2009).

Judged: Go here for winner.

You may wish to note this discussion on the new atheists and the problem of evil.

Admin Note: Re contest 7: Endoplasmic Messenger needs to send me a real world address at oleary@sympatico.ca, in order to collect his prize. It will NOT be added to a database for any further purpose.

My own view – and not meant to prejudice yours:

That is a fascinating subject, and one on which I have written. But let philosopher Michael Ruse have the floor now, complaining about the new atheists:

“Why I think the new atheists are a bloody disaster” In the past few years, we have seen the rise and growth of a group that the public sphere has labeled the “new atheists” – people who are aggressively pro-science, especially pro-Darwinism, and violently anti-religion of all kinds, especially Christianity but happy to include Islam and the rest. Actually the arguments are not that “new,” but no matter – the publicity has been huge. Distinctive of this group, although well known to anyone who studies religion and the way in which sects divide and proliferate, is the fact that (with the possible exception of the Catholic Church) nothing incurs their wrath than those who are pro-science but who refuse to agree that all and every kind of religious belief is wrong, pernicious, and socially and personally dangerous. Recently, it has been the newly appointed director of the NIH, Francis Collins, who has been incurring their hatred. Given the man’s scientific and managerial credentials – completing the HGP under budget and under time for a start – this is deplorable, if understandable since Collins is a devout Christian.

I am not a devout Christian, yet if anything, the things said against me are worse.

Oh? Indeed? Why, exactly, is what is said about Francis Collins “understandable?” Why are atheists given a worldwide passport and “get out of jail free” card for bad behaviour? Anyway, Jerry Coyne replied, removing all doubt about the atheist agenda.

I have never figured Ruse out. He was raised a Quaker and lost his faith in his early twenties. I know for a fact that he hangs around the ID guys. Not that there is anything the matter with that, except that he has said,

… I think intelligent-design theory and its companions are nasty, cramping, soul-destroying reversions to the more unfortunate aspects of 19th century America. Although I am not a Christian, I look upon these ideas as putrid scabs on the body of a great religion …

 But he was at the head table at a dinner given in honour of Phillip Johnson in 2004. I was there.

I suspect that Ruse never figured himself out either. He is not like Larry Krauss, a determined atheist, who dines on well-fed “Catholic” profs who never get their rotting ships in tackle, and maybe don’t even care, as long as the taxpayer or the devout believer fronts their bills anyway.

No, Ruse wants us to know that he somehow cares about the people he really, obviously, despises, while he explains, in hearty “English” terms, why these new atheists are a bloody disaster.

But are they really? If so, to whom? Not to the new totalitarians in government, of whom many of us have had a way bigger dose than we are prepared to stomach. And this new totalitarianism advances in the name of theories of government birthed explicitly in atheism.

Still, despite Ruse, I can think of three reasons the new atheists could indeed be a bloody disaster – but mainly for themselves:

1. People realize that the new atheists’ theories are not true. Consider the endless kvetching from tax-funded science orgs that we don’t believe the crap they feed us about Darwinism. That’s because we know something is wrong. So we are all wrong and they are all right? We’ve heard that enough times from tax-funded orgs before, when the evidence just didn’t add up, to raise suspicion.

2. Many Darwinists, like Richard Dawkins, invested heavily in Darwinism’s unfortunate offspring, “evolutionary psychology”, a predictable disaster, given what we know today about the plasticity of the human brain. Still, every yap, whine, or therapy scream in the popular press’s weekend “Relationships” section somehow “proves” [hush! hush! respectful silence here!] Evolution! That brings the whole discipline of evolutionary biology – if it is indeed a discipline – into disrepute. Significantly, evolutionary biologists rarely denounce this nonsense. Would medical doctors refuse to denounce a supposed treatment based on “space rays”? So why the continued silence?

3. Ruse seems to think that some form of Christianity would be compatible with Darwinism. This is false and known to be so by almost every serious Christian. No form of Darwinism is compatible with Christianity or any other type of theism, because Darwin developed his theory precisely to rule that out. His serious followers understand that. Telling people things that they know are false is hardly a good way to convince them. (Note: Of course, there are numerous confused, nice, well-meaning reverends and bible school profs who do not understand this, and just want everyone to be “nice.” I have dealt with enough of them myself.)

But is Ruse vs. Coyne just a pretend squabble, a good cop/bad cop routine? I think so myself. Just a way of distracting attention and getting nice, well-meaning reverends and bible school profs to agree with Ruse and not Coyne, and – above all – not to see the big picture. Like taking candy from a baby, actually.

Anyway, that’s my view, but I am not in the contest. I only mail the prizes . The floor is yours. Here’s the question again:

Uncommon Descent Contest Question 8: Do the “new atheists” help or hurt the cause of Darwinism?

Comments
Upright Biped, MeganC's sure she has an argument there somewhere. ........wait a minute! Was that what I think it was? Wa-a-ass that a talking donkey that just passed by? What the...I ca-an't believe it. :) Megan???????Oramus
August 18, 2009
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Yeah, if you’re Christian and accept that Darwinism, in its present form, is the best scientific explanation of the diversity of biological forms, then you are not “serious.”
How could you be? There is an absolute dichotomy between the Christian and Darwinian explanations of our presence. What part of:
Darwin developed his theory precisely to rule [theism/Christianity] out
did you miss? You may argue whether that observation is valid, but whether deliberate or not, Darwin's explanation does directly oppose the Christian view. Please explain how one could be a "serious" advocate of two contradictory explanations for our existence.C Bass
August 17, 2009
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Interesting comments all around. Stephen, Sal, Rude, Oramus, DonM, LT... ...then there is Megan, who came to UD arguing that the "truth" of reality (based upon rational observation) isn't important if it doesn't rise to (an unspecified level of) practical utility. Apparently, in a false dichotomy of one's own making, it must be better to choose practicality over truth. Although she hasn't actually posted anything of particular interest, her underlying position may be pertinent to the thread after all.Upright BiPed
August 17, 2009
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----Oramus: "Then they [TE's, after ID wins over the scientific community] will instinctively proceed to the ID living room, where the action is. Yes, the beautiful part of having it both ways is that no matter what happens, you can always say, "Basically, that's been my position all along."StephenB
August 17, 2009
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The New Atheists will inevitable hurt the Darwinian evolutionary hypothesis. Their incessant vitriole will galvanize fence sitting scientists to make the move to ID research as well as encourage religious college students to take us science careers. The pendulum is slowly moving ID's way and the more scientists feel they can risk the fallout from their mutiny, the more we will see new Dembskis, Meyers, Behe, Davisons, Remines, on the seen. "ID waxing, ND waning". BWT StephenB, 'Christian Darwinists' may appear to hurt the cause of ID by seemingly exploiting Christian sensibilities, but in fact they will just end up acting as the hat rack, where folks can peel off their inhibitions. Then they will instinctively proceed to the ID living room, where the action is.Oramus
August 17, 2009
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Sal Gal, You seem to be quick to spot a logical fallacy. Good for you. Have you spotted any in the case for Darwinism?EndoplasmicMessenger
August 17, 2009
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Denyse, I tried sending you another email. Hopefully it got through this time.EndoplasmicMessenger
August 17, 2009
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Oops! That last paragraph is a quote from SG and shoulda been in quotations. :(Oramus
August 17, 2009
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Sal Gal, This is why the Darwinian evolutionary hypothesis is on its way out. It is chock-full of miracles, albeit couched as 'best explanation'. The logical reductionist conclusion of any 'darwinian' inquiry is 'spontaneity did it'. If any paradigm has a chance to 'prove' anything in biology, it will be Intelligent Design. Why? Because it recognized information as separate from matter. Hence, the math (the proofs) will work out in ID's favor. Darwin may have been clever but hardly perceptive. Plenty of Christians understand that scientific explanations, as a practical matter, cannot include “and then a miracle happens,” even though they believe in miracles. Personally, I see arrogance and pride in the conviction of some Christians that they will “prove scientifically” that living things are intelligently designed — i.e., that they evidence the creation of information.Oramus
August 17, 2009
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Sal Gal, You still haven't answered me. Who at UD is a propagandist?Clive Hayden
August 17, 2009
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Clive,
Are you going to answer my question?
I do not read new comments while I am writing one of my own.Sal Gal
August 17, 2009
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Clive, No one here is exclusively a propagandist. Certain white-box personae assume that function in particular articles -- some do it markedly more often than others. I have openly criticized Dembski for failing to tease out his mathematics from his cultural warfare. Whether or not he listened to me, he (and Marks) did just what I suggested, and got a strictly mathematical article through peer review. I respect Dembski's intelligence too much to believe for a moment that he sincerely regarded Professor Eric Pianka of UT - Austin as a threat to homeland security. To call the UD article agitprop is actually the least of possible criticisms. By the way, I have worked unsuccessfully to oppose dissemination of anti-ID propaganda through Wikipedia. If you want to reduce yourself to the same level as the thugs over there by "moderating" me into silence for pointing out that there is some propaganda at UD, that is your prerogative.Sal Gal
August 17, 2009
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But anyway I already have a copy of "Signature in the Cell". ;)Joseph
August 17, 2009
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If the "cause of Darwinism" is to be universally accepted, regardless of religious affiliation (or the absence of), then the "new atheists" hurt that cause as their "ideology" is laid bare once one realizes it boils down to nothing more than sheer dumb luck.Joseph
August 17, 2009
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MeganC, Until you answer my comment about a talking donkey on the other thread, I am gavelling all further discussion. If you want a serious discussion, then answer my comment, otherwise, I will delete all further references to it.Clive Hayden
August 17, 2009
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Sal Gal, Are you going to answer my question?Clive Hayden
August 17, 2009
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O’Leary, Would you please consider the following as a future ‘Uncommon Descent Contest Question’: Are talking donkeys part of a rational universe? Thank you in advance. *If I could add that I would be prepared to sponsor two tickets to 'The Creation Museum' as a prize.MeganC
August 17, 2009
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I'll pose a legitimate question: Do the New Atheists help or hurt the cause of fostering public understanding of science? The question itself is ironic, of course, because the most prominent of the lot, Richard Dawkins, was Professor for Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. The New Atheists talk a lot about reason, but their rhetoric could hardly be more emotional and inflammatory. They play straight into the hands of people like Denyse O'Leary who want manipulate public opinion by making mainstream evolutionary theory guilty by association with the rabidly anti-religious. I believe that the New Atheists reduce the likelihood that people of faith will hear genuinely dispassionate arguments as to why science should restrict its explanations as it does, and why mainstream evolutionary theory constitutes a body of good scientific explanations. (Such arguments actually swayed me.) Furthermore, I believe that people of faith are more likely to mouth acceptance of ID without actually investigating it, simply because it comes from people who are religious like them.Sal Gal
August 17, 2009
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Sal Gal, ------"The propagandists at this site — not to say that everyone here is a propagandist — love to reduce Darwinism to the ideology of participants in a cultural war against traditional Judeo-Christian values of the Western World." Who would those "propagandists" be? You made the claim, now clarify yourself.Clive Hayden
August 17, 2009
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DonaldM @ 9: By extension of your flawed reasoning about the suffix of Darwinism, Mendelism also has a cause. Read at least the introduction to the article on Darwinism in Wikipedia. The propagandists at this site -- not to say that everyone here is a propagandist -- love to reduce Darwinism to the ideology of participants in a cultural war against traditional Judeo-Christian values of the Western World. There are plenty of folks around, including Mike Gene and myself, who are interested in the prospect that today's natural philosophy could be tomorrow's science. We are engaged in legitimate intellectual pursuits, not construction of pseudo-intellectual arguments in support of preconceptions. Although I first pointed out the obvious fallacy of the complex question, what is more important is the less obvious ad hominem argument:
Ruse seems to think that some form of Christianity would be compatible with Darwinism. This is false and known to be so by almost every serious Christian. No form of Darwinism is compatible with Christianity or any other type of theism, because Darwin developed his theory precisely to rule that out.
Yeah, if you're Christian and accept that Darwinism, in its present form, is the best scientific explanation of the diversity of biological forms, then you are not "serious." Here's a complex question for O'Leary: Are you still celebrating the death of Pope John Paul II? Plenty of Christians understand that scientific explanations, as a practical matter, cannot include "and then a miracle happens," even though they believe in miracles. Personally, I see arrogance and pride in the conviction of some Christians that they will "prove scientifically" that living things are intelligently designed -- i.e., that they evidence the creation of information.Sal Gal
August 17, 2009
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The second sentence in the last paragraph should read, "By publically denying these incontrovertible facts in print and getting killed each time they try to do it in a debate, militant atheists give away their hand:"StephenB
August 17, 2009
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Militant atheists hurt the cause of Darwinism because they clarify the debate, laying bare the illogical and muddled posture of the modern theistic evolutionists and exposing their own religious sensibilities. As anyone who cares knows, Theistic Evolutionists, seek to make Darwinism plausible to the general public by repeating their mantra that “there is no conflict between religion and science.” Naturally, that rhetorical formulation is dishonestly conceived since it implies [A] Darwinism is synonymous with science and [B] Intelligent design is anti-evolution. Calculated to deceive, their mantra falsely frames the debate and misrepresents the positions of both sides without really saying anything. In effect, modern Theistic Evolutionists want their God and their Darwin too; but they want a quiet God and a loud Darwin. To believers they say, “Hey, I am a Christian.” leaving the convenient impression they believe in a purposeful, mindful creator. To the academy they say, “Don’t worry, I am first and foremost a Darwinist, so I really believe in a purposeless, mindless process that has no need of a creator. I you don’t believe me, just watch how I slander and smear the ID people.” From a strategic point of view, these soul selling, split-the-difference-have it both ways Christians harm the ID movement 100 times more than Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens could ever hope to. There is just enough sugar in their confection to make young Christians swallow the poison whole and join the ranks of the anti-ID militants. On the other hand, Dawkins, Hitchens and company unwittingly alert the public about the poison in the TE cocktail, making it more difficult for Theistic Darwinists to recruit reasonable Christians who have not yet been, but could be, made impervious to reason by the Darwinist ideology. It is, after all, largely through the dishonestly won goodwill achieved by the Christian Darwinists, and the alleged reasonableness of their position, that atheistic Darwinism continues to survive. Even apart from exposing TE muddle-headedness, atheist Darwinists also harm their cause by militating against the intellectual instincts of most educated individuals. Ten years ago, it was relatively easy to peddle the lie that Christianity is the enemy of science and culture. Today, it is getting much harder. As Rodney Stark, Thomas Woods, and other serious researchers have made clear, Christianity launched modern science and built Western Civilization. Believing that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him,” and that “God left clues” about his creation, theistic scientists set out to find those clues and approached their research with that mind set. In a parallel fashion, political philosophers, drawing from Biblical principles, derived such ideas as “consent of the governed,” “due process,” and the “inherent dignity of the human person,” all of which led to the idea that freedom is a gift from God. The truth about all these matters is clear enough to anyone who bothers to look for it. By publically denying incontrovertible facts and getting killed in debate each time they try to do it, they give away their hand: ideology drives them and evidence means nothing. Thus, they destroy the Darwinist’s carefully crafted brand image as disinterested scientists who value facts more than anything else. Again, it is their clarity that hurts them. Until they learn to equivocate like the TEs, they will continue to harm Darwinism, which, for them, constitutes materialistic religion posing as science. Clarity is propoganda’s biggest enemy.StephenB
August 17, 2009
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I have to object to the question. "Darwinism" is not a cause; it is to date our best description of a natural process accounting for the diversity of life we see on this planet. As such, the new atheists have little to do with it.Anthony09
August 17, 2009
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Is the New Atheist attack on the likes of Ruse and Collins a conspiracy? It makes little difference because either way it works in favor of the Darwinists. Coyne of course is right when he says, “And it’s sad that a philosopher with any pretension to intellectual rigor must consort with the mushbrained BioLogos Foundation.” My guess is that the mushbrained will be turned off and gravitate to BioLogos. Perhaps Pareto’s Principle applies---maybe 20% are fighting this war and the rest are passive on-lookers. It's an open question whether the response to the New Atheists will be calmed by compromisers or kindled by ID? Anyway in some instances Ruse clarifies matters. He says, “Perhaps indeed teaching Darwinism is implicitly teaching atheism. This is the claim of the new atheists.” Coyne responds,
I don’t know of a single evolutionist who teaches atheism in their classrooms, or who even says in the classroom that Darwinism is tantamount to atheism. Show me, Dr. Ruse, one atheist who violates freedom of religion by saying, “God does not exist” in the public school (or even the university) classroom. Yes, teaching evolution may have the side result of eroding some peoples’ faith, but, as I’ve pointed out before, the erosion of faith can occur in the geology classroom, the astronomy classroom, the ethics classroom, and even in the theology classroom! (How many believers have lost their faith when learning about how the Bible was actually put together?) As the respect for rational discourse increases, as it should with a good education, the respect for religion will erode. But that doesn’t mean that a good education violates the First Amendment.
Here Coyne clouds the issue more than Ruse but he also clarifies, because he admits that Darwinism really is a universal acid that has seeped into every nook and cranny of the educational process. It’s not just in biology class but everywhere, not just when the professor expresses his atheism—in fact the professor may even profess religion—but the sharp student knows on which side the bread is buttered. He senses what you can and cannot say. He learns that you cannot take any traditional religion seriously no matter what the discipline.Rude
August 17, 2009
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I feel like I can speak to this one because I once had much more sympathy for the “new” atheist position. In any case, the “new” atheists hurt the cause of Darwinism by reducing an important and very interesting set of issues into a matter of allegiance. They do not talk about science so mach as use their books and blogs to point a bullying finger at regular people like me and say: “What do you choose, your religion or our freedom?” Now, I do not know many people who operate under the illusion that their religion is perfect. Most of the folks I know approach belief with a high level of reason and searching – as they approach most serious matters. When the “new” atheists demand a choice, many will choose – that is, many will look at all of the facts and evidence – against Darwinism because Darwinism's claims and explanatory power are often exaggerated. As far as I can tell, the only thing the “new” atheism does really well is proliferate online outlets for lonely and frustrated people to make canned arguments and invectives against something they see as the establishment. People who at first choose to side with the “new” atheists (like me) will at some point want to see the proofs. These people will say, “Yes, we have had a very good time denouncing the religious and demonizing ID, but where’s the stuff that actually backs up the Darwinian position?” When the stuff doesn’t come, when the stuff is actually just the anti-this and anti-that which has been hurled out there all the time, then I think only a few, bitter “new” atheist shamans will remain.Larry Tanner
August 17, 2009
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Sal Gal
Reread comment 2, and you’ll see that I do not accept that Darwinism or ID theory has a cause. It suits Denyse’s agenda to tag Darwinism with a cause, however.
The "ism" it what makes it a cause. Ruse uses the same term himself in the quote. DarwinISM is distinquishable from Darwinian Evolutionary Theory. The former is a cause seeking to influence education policy, political policy, science policy and whole host of other public policy initiatives. The latter is simply the science of evolutionary biology along the lines of Darwin's hypotheses. If Darwinism were not a cause, then it would be pointless for Coyne, Dawkins, Ruse and others to publish popular books promoting it. The challenge that Denyse issued has to do with the cause. But even if you reject that there is any cause involved, you could read the question to apply to the science just as well. Is the science of Darwinian evolution well served by the NA's? See where that leads you.DonaldM
August 17, 2009
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I think the New Atheists do hurt the case for Darwinism a lot. [emphasis added]
Now we've gone from cause to case. The case for Darwinism as a scientific explanation of the diverse species of living things depends in no way on atheism. It is the "intellectual fulfillment" of some atheists that depends on Darwinism.Sal Gal
August 17, 2009
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I think the New Atheists do hurt the case for Darwinism a lot. They insult all people of faith. they say they are rational but they act in irrational way. Any one of faith will turn to creationism to defend it. The new atheist will ignore any and all evidence that does not fit into there world view and call the people discover it lairs even other scientist confirm it. The new atheist are not pro science but pro naturalism. Naturalism is a sicenctic theory that natural causes have no limits when it comes to human origins. Creationism say that there are limitations of what nature can do in terms of human origins. Science does not have to answer our origins. Also I think The new Atheist are afraid of I.D. and want to stop advancing before it can prove Darwinism wrong with out a doubt. The New Atheist know with out Darinism that they will look very very foolish and there numbers will drop like a stone.spark300c
August 17, 2009
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The "it" in the Wikipedia quote is the fallacy of the complex question, aka the fallacy of many questions.Sal Gal
August 17, 2009
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A simple question deserves a simple answer...
Silly me. I assumed that folks here were familiar with the logical fallacies. From Wikipedia:
It is committed when someone asks a question that presupposes something that has not been proven or accepted by all the people involved. This fallacy is often used rhetorically, so that the question limits direct replies to those that serve the questioner's agenda.
Reread comment 2, and you'll see that I do not accept that Darwinism or ID theory has a cause. It suits Denyse's agenda to tag Darwinism with a cause, however.Sal Gal
August 17, 2009
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