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RVB8 and the refusal to mark the difference between description and invention

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. . . (of the concept, functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I)


Sometimes, a longstanding objector here at UD — such as RVB8 — inadvertently reveals just how weak the objections to the design inference are by persistently clinging to long since cogently answered objections. This phenomenon of ideology triumphing over evident reality is worth highlighting as a headlined post illustrating darwinist rhetorical stratagems and habits.

Here is RVB8 in a comment in the current Steve Fuller thread:

RVB8, 36: >> for ID or Creationism, I can get the information direct from the creators of the terminology. Dembski for Specified Complexity, Kairos for his invention of FSCO/I, and Behe for Irreducible Complexity.>>

As it seems necessary to set a pronunciation, the acronym FSCO/I shall henceforth be pronounced “fish-koi” (where happily, koi are produced by artificial selection, a form of ID too often misused as a proxy for the alleged powers of culling out by differential reproductive success in the wild)

For a long time, he and others of like ilk have tried to suggest that as I have championed the acrostic summary FSCO/I, the concept I am pointing to is a dubious novelty that has not been tested through peer review or the like and can be safely set aside. In fact, it is simply acknowledging that specified complexity is both organisational and informational, and that in many contexts it is specified in the context of requisites of function through multiple coupled parts. Text such as in this post shows a simple form of such a structure, S-T-R-I-N-G-S.

Where of course, memorably, Crick classically pointed out to his son Michael on March 19, 1953 as follows, regarding DNA as text:

Crick’s letter

Subsequently, that code was elucidated (here in the mRNA, transcribed form):

The Genetic code uses three-letter codons to specify the sequence of AA’s in proteins and specifying start/stop, and using six bits per AA

Likewise a process flow network is an expression of FSCO/I, e.g. an oil refinery:

Petroleum refinery block diagram illustrating FSCO/I in a process-flow system

This case is much simpler than the elucidated biochemistry process flow metabolic reaction network of the living cell:

I have also often illustrated FSCO/I in the form of functional organisation through a drawing of an ABU 6500 C3 reel (which I safely presume came about through using AutoCAD or the like):

All of this is of course very directly similar to something like protein synthesis [top left in the cell’s biochem outline], which involves both text strings and functionally specific highly complex organisation:

Protein Synthesis (HT: Wiki Media)

In short, FSCO/I is real, relevant and patently descriptive, both of the technological world and the biological world. This demands an adequate causal explanation, and the only serious explanation on the table that is empirically warranted is, design.

As the text of this post illustrates, and as the text of objector comments to come will further inadvertently illustrate.

Now, I responded at no 37, as follows:

KF, 37: >>Unfortunately, your choice of speaking in terms of “invention” of FSCO/I speaks volumes on your now regrettably habitual refusal to acknowledge phenomena that are right in front of you. As in, a descriptive label acknowledges a phenomenon, it does not invent it.

Doubtless [and on long track record], you think that is a clever way to dismiss something you don’t wish to consider.

This pattern makes your rhetoric into a case in point of the sociological, ideological reaction to the design inference on tested sign. So, I now respond, by way of addressing a case of a problem of sustained unresponsiveness to evidence.

However, it only reveals that you are being selectively hyperskeptical and dismissive through the fallacy of the closed, ideologised, indoctrinated, hostile mind.

I suggest you need to think again.

As a start, look at your own comment, which is text. To wit, a s-t-r-i-n-g of 1943 ASCII characters, at 7 bits per character, indicating a config space of 2^[7 * 1943) possibilities. That is, a space with 2.037*10^4094 cells.

The atomic and temporal resources of our whole observed cosmos, running at 1 search per each of 10^80 atoms, at 10^12 – 10^14 searches per s [a fast chem reaction rate] for 10^17 s [time since big bang, approx.] could not search more than 10^111 cells, a negligibly small fraction. That is, the config space search challenge is real, there is not enough resource to search more than a negligibly small fraction of the haystack blindly. (and the notion sometimes put, of somehow having a golden search runs into the fact that searches are subsets, so search for a golden search comes from the power set of the direct config space, of order here 2^[10^4094]. That is, it is exponentially harder.)

How then did your text string come to be? By a much more powerful means: you as an intelligent and knowledgeable agent exerted intelligently directed configuration to compose a text in English.

That is why, routinely, when you see or I see text of significant size in English, we confidently and rightly infer to design.

As a simple extension, a 3-d object such as an Abu 6500 C3 fishing reel is describable, in terms of bit strings in a description language, so functional organisation is reducible to an informational equivalent. Discussion on strings is WLOG.

In terms of the living cell, we can simply point to the copious algorithmic TEXT in DNA, which directly fits with the textual search challenge issue. There is no empirically warranted blind chance and mechanical necessity mechanism that can plausibly account for it. We have every epistemic and inductive reasoning right to see that the FSCO/I in the cell is best explained as a result of design.

That twerdun, which comes before whodunit.

As for, oh it’s some readily scorned IDiot on a blog, I suggest you would do better to ponder this from Stephen Meyer:

The central argument of my book [= Signature in the Cell] is that intelligent design—the activity of a conscious and rational deliberative agent—best explains the origin of the information necessary to produce the first living cell. I argue this because of two things that we know from our uniform and repeated experience, which following Charles Darwin I take to be the basis of all scientific reasoning about the past. First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals. In other words, intelligent design is the only explanation that cites a cause known to have the capacity to produce the key effect in question . . . . In order to [[scientifically refute this inductive conclusion] Falk would need to show that some undirected material cause has [[empirically] demonstrated the power to produce functional biological information apart from the guidance or activity a designing mind. Neither Falk, nor anyone working in origin-of-life biology, has succeeded in doing this . . . .

The central problem facing origin-of-life researchers is neither the synthesis of pre-biotic building blocks (which Sutherland’s work addresses) or even the synthesis of a self-replicating RNA molecule (the plausibility of which Joyce and Tracey’s work seeks to establish, albeit unsuccessfully . . . [[Meyer gives details in the linked page]). Instead, the fundamental problem is getting the chemical building blocks to arrange themselves into the large information-bearing molecules (whether DNA or RNA) . . . .

For nearly sixty years origin-of-life researchers have attempted to use pre-biotic simulation experiments to find a plausible pathway by which life might have arisen from simpler non-living chemicals, thereby providing support for chemical evolutionary theory. While these experiments have occasionally yielded interesting insights about the conditions under which certain reactions will or won’t produce the various small molecule constituents of larger bio-macromolecules, they have shed no light on how the information in these larger macromolecules (particularly in DNA and RNA) could have arisen. Nor should this be surprising in light of what we have long known about the chemical structure of DNA and RNA. As I show in Signature in the Cell, the chemical structures of DNA and RNA allow them to store information precisely because chemical affinities between their smaller molecular subunits do not determine the specific arrangements of the bases in the DNA and RNA molecules. Instead, the same type of chemical bond (an N-glycosidic bond) forms between the backbone and each one of the four bases, allowing any one of the bases to attach at any site along the backbone, in turn allowing an innumerable variety of different sequences. This chemical indeterminacy is precisely what permits DNA and RNA to function as information carriers. It also dooms attempts to account for the origin of the information—the precise sequencing of the bases—in these molecules as the result of deterministic chemical interactions . . . .

[[W]e now have a wealth of experience showing that what I call specified or functional information (especially if encoded in digital form) does not arise from purely physical or chemical antecedents [[–> i.e. by blind, undirected forces of chance and necessity]. Indeed, the ribozyme engineering and pre-biotic simulation experiments that Professor Falk commends to my attention actually lend additional inductive support to this generalization. On the other hand, we do know of a cause—a type of cause—that has demonstrated the power to produce functionally-specified information. That cause is intelligence or conscious rational deliberation. As the pioneering information theorist Henry Quastler once observed, “the creation of information is habitually associated with conscious activity.” And, of course, he was right. Whenever we find information—whether embedded in a radio signal, carved in a stone monument, written in a book or etched on a magnetic disc—and we trace it back to its source, invariably we come to mind, not merely a material process. Thus, the discovery of functionally specified, digitally encoded information along the spine of DNA, provides compelling positive evidence of the activity of a prior designing intelligence. This conclusion is not based upon what we don’t know. It is based upon what we do know from our uniform experience about the cause and effect structure of the world—specifically, what we know about what does, and does not, have the power to produce large amounts of specified information . . . .

[[In conclusion,] it needs to be noted that the [[now commonly asserted and imposed limiting rule on scientific knowledge, the] principle of methodological naturalism [[ that scientific explanations may only infer to “natural[[istic] causes”] is an arbitrary philosophical assumption, not a principle that can be established or justified by scientific observation itself. Others of us, having long ago seen the pattern in pre-biotic simulation experiments, to say nothing of the clear testimony of thousands of years of human experience, have decided to move on. We see in the information-rich structure of life a clear indicator of intelligent activity and have begun to investigate living systems accordingly. If, by Professor Falk’s definition, that makes us philosophers rather than scientists, then so be it. But I suspect that the shoe is now, instead, firmly on the other foot. [[Meyer, Stephen C: Response to Darrel Falk’s Review of Signature in the Cell, SITC web site, 2009. (Emphases and parentheses added.)]

Let me focus attention on the highlighted:

First, intelligent agents have demonstrated the capacity to produce large amounts of functionally specified information (especially in a digital form). Second, no undirected chemical process has demonstrated this power. Hence, intelligent design provides the best—most causally adequate—explanation for the origin of the information necessary to produce the first life from simpler non-living chemicals.

The only difference between this and what I have highlighted through the acronym FSCO/I, is that functionally specific organisation is similarly reducible to an informational string and is in this sense equivalent to it. Where, that is hardly news, AutoCAD has reigned supreme as an engineers design tool for decades now. Going back to 1973, Orgel in his early work on specified complexity, wrote:

. . . In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . . .

[HT, Mung, fr. p. 190 & 196:] These vague idea can be made more precise by introducing the idea of information. Roughly speaking, the information content of a structure is the minimum number of instructions needed to specify the structure. [–> this is of course equivalent to the string of yes/no questions required to specify the relevant “wiring diagram” for the set of functional states, T, in the much larger space of possible clumped or scattered configurations, W, as Dembski would go on to define in NFL in 2002, also cf here, here and here (with here on self-moved agents as designing causes).] One can see intuitively that many instructions are needed to specify a complex structure. [–> so if the q’s to be answered are Y/N, the chain length is an information measure that indicates complexity in bits . . . ] On the other hand a simple repeating structure can be specified in rather few instructions. [–> do once and repeat over and over in a loop . . . ] Complex but random structures, by definition, need hardly be specified at all . . . . Paley was right to emphasize the need for special explanations of the existence of objects with high information content, for they cannot be formed in nonevolutionary, inorganic processes. [The Origins of Life (John Wiley, 1973), p. 189, p. 190, p. 196.]

So, the concept of reducing functional organisation to a description on a string of y/n structured questions — a bit string in some description language — is hardly news, nor is it something I came up with. Where obviously Orgel is speaking to FUNCTIONAL specificity, so that is not new either.

Likewise, search spaces or config spaces is a simple reflection of the phase space concept of statistical thermodynamics.

Dembski’s remarks are also significant, here from NFL:

p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology.

I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity, or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . .

Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism’s subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites:

Wouters, p. 148: “globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms,”

Behe, p. 148: “minimal function of biochemical systems,”

Dawkins, pp. 148 – 9: “Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction.”

On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel’s famous remark from 1973, which exactly cited reads:

In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .

And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: “Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity.”] . . .”

p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”

So, the problem of refusal to attend to readily available, evidence or even evidence put in front of objectors to design theory is significant and clear.

What it in the end reflects as a case of clinging to fallacies and myths in the teeth of correction for years on end, is the weakness of the case being made against design by its persistent objectors.

Which is itself highly significant.>>

Now, let us discuss, duly noting the highlighted and emphasised. END

Comments
@Eric Anderson
The information isn’t doing anything to “cause itself to be retained.” An intelligent being, operating outside of the information, is recognizing value in certain pieces of information and making an informed decision about what to retain and what to improve.
Before a person can actually improve the contents of a book, they must posses knowledge of what improvements to make. Desiring or wanting to make improvement isn't enough. Variations are conjectural, so a change that is retained depends of that knowledge actually improving solutions to existing problems or even expanding the kinds of solutions it contains. That's objective in that is independent of what anyone believes. In the sense, it plays a key causal role.
Sure. For the next generation. So what? The question is where information comes from and how it got there in the first place.
Yes, that is the question. The knowledge in a organism's genes determines what its features will be. So, the origin of that knowledge is the origin of those features. What is your explanation? Some designer put it there doesn't explain that knowledge. How did it possess it? What you seem to be appealing to is an authoritative source of knowledge, which is bad philosophy. Some designer that “just was” complete with the knowledge of just the right genes would result in just the right proteins that would results in just the right features, already present, does’t serve an explanatory purpose. That’s because, one can more efficiently state that organisms “just appeared”, complete with the knowledge of just the right genes would result in just the right proteins that would results in just the right features, already present. Neither case accounts for the origin of that knowledge. The former is like saying a robot came off the assembly like already programmed how to build cars. That knowledge would have spontaneously appeared when the robot was being built.
Yes, that is the naive claim. Unfortunately no-one has ever seen these purely hypothetical early replicators. And no-one has ever been able to show how a “highly inaccurate, non-purposive construction” could possibly replicate faithfully in a prebiotic environment, in the lab, or anywhere else.
If the inference is human designers via induction, then every designer we've observed is well adapted for the purpose of designing things. So, you only think you are using induction. Being well adapted to serve a purpose (designing organisms) cannot be the explanation for being well adapted to serve a purpose. And if the designer is not well adapted, then how does that work, exactly? Again the criticism is that the origin of that knowledge Is either absent or irrational.
This constructor theory, as you have outlined it, is completely nonsense. It is worse than wrong. It is anti-knowledge, because it gives people who aren’t familiar with the facts the false impression that it solves an important biological issue, when it doesn’t. It is just a mix of sloppy language, poor definitions, personification of inanimate objects, and general vague assertions about how it supposedly works.
You're merely objecting to the idea that knowledge in brains, books and genes can be unified because it's not the traditional definition of knowledge. That's just bad criticism in you're claiming we cannot make progress, which is anti-knowledge. Do you have any other criticism other than that?critical rationalist
March 24, 2017
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In the case of books, the knowege it contains solves a problem, so it is reprinted. Variations of that book that solve more problems or do so better are reprinted, while the ealirer version is not.
What on earth? The information isn't doing anything to "cause itself to be retained." An intelligent being, operating outside of the information, is recognizing value in certain pieces of information and making an informed decision about what to retain and what to improve. You can't change that fact by using sloppy personification language when talking about information.
It is embedded as part of the coping process, which is currenly high-accuracy.
Sure. For the next generation. So what? The question is where information comes from and how it got there in the first place.
Again, the earliest cells would not need to be highly accurate template replicators. They just need to make some kind of copy.
Yes, that is the naive claim. Unfortunately no-one has ever seen these purely hypothetical early replicators. And no-one has ever been able to show how a "highly inaccurate, non-purposive construction" could possibly replicate faithfully in a prebiotic environment, in the lab, or anywhere else. ----- This constructor theory, as you have outlined it, is completely nonsense. It is worse than wrong. It is anti-knowledge, because it gives people who aren't familiar with the facts the false impression that it solves an important biological issue, when it doesn't. It is just a mix of sloppy language, poor definitions, personification of inanimate objects, and general vague assertions about how it supposedly works. I know you have invested a lot of time and energy on this thread pushing this theory in a public forum. As a result, it will be difficult to back down and admit that it doesn't hold water. But please, for your own intellectual integrity, take some time to understand the issues kf is raising on this thread and look hard in the mirror to examine the constructor business. It may be painful, but it will be a good learning experience.Eric Anderson
March 23, 2017
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How can information “cause itself” to be retained? What, exactly, is this information doing to interact with the physical world and cause itself to be retained?
As I've already given multiple examples. For example, genes play a causal role in being copied into future generations in a specific environment, which includes the organism itself. In the case of books, the knowege it contains solves a problem, so it is reprinted. Variations of that book that solve more problems or do so better are reprinted, while the ealirer version is not. Knowege plays causal roles because it is independent of a knowing subject. If I ordered a set of plans to build a car, but received plans for a boat instead, I wouldn't end up with a car because that's what I believed the knowege the plans contained would result in.
And what does the embedding in the first place?
It is embedded as part of the coping process, which is currenly high-accuracy. Again, the earliest cells would not need to be highly accurate template replicators. They just need to make some kind of copy. The key point here is that knowege solves a problem. It causes transformations, independent of what anyone believes. See #191.critical rationalist
March 23, 2017
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The appearance of design is being well adapted to serve a purpose. If you do not have an explanation for that adaptation, then how can you identify it as actually being design, as opposed to something else? You have no explanation for design, but I know new-Darwinism cannot achieve it? It's unclear how this is good criticism. Furthermore, being well adapted to serve a purpose (design organisms) cannot be an explanation for being well adapted to serve a purpose.critical rationalist
March 23, 2017
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CR: If something is absent in a theory, it cannot be used to explain phenomena. “Identifying” the designers in each case above does not improve the situation. Again, my criticism is that the explanation for that knowledge is either absent or irrational. If you’ve identified the designer as Zeus or a telic force, you ....
You do not understand the design inference. ID does not explain how or by who phenomena are designed. Ponder this:
Eric Anderson: ID is not an attempt to answer all questions. It is a limited inquiry into whether something was designed. Questions about who, why, how, when are all interesting second-order questions that can be asked only after an inference to design is drawn. You may want, deeply in your heart of hearts, for ID to answer all of those questions. But that is a failure of your expectations, not ID itself.
Origenes
March 21, 2017
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Non-explanatory knowledge is information that causes itself to be retained when embedded in a storage medium . . .
How can information "cause itself" to be retained? What, exactly, is this information doing to interact with the physical world and cause itself to be retained? And what does the embedding in the first place?Eric Anderson
March 19, 2017
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@Eric Anderson Non-explanatory knowledge is information that causes itself to be retained when embedded in a storage medium and does not contain explanatory theories about how the world works. As such, it has significantly less reach. The knowledge in genes is one example of non-explanatory knowledge. See #127 and #158.critical rationalist
March 19, 2017
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@Origenes
Simply put, ID is neutral on the identity of the designer, which doesn’t mean that the designer is ‘abstract’ or whatever. The designer(s) may be aliens, humans transported back in time, Zeus or some telic force. ID simply does not say. That’s all.
If something is absent in a theory, it cannot be used to explain phenomena. “Identifying” the designers in each case above does not improve the situation. Again, my criticism is that the explanation for that knowledge is either absent or irrational. If you’ve identified the designer as Zeus or a telic force, you have a supernatural origin of that knowledge. No such explanation can be given, because it is inexplicable by definition. A designer that “just was”, compete with the knowledge of just the right genes, etc., already present, doesn’t serve an explanatory purpose. That’s because one could more efficiently state that organisms “just were”, compete with the knowledge of just the right genes, etc., already present. The explanation is absent, so you are back to a designer that merely has the property of “design” in an abstract sense. In regards to aliens or human beings, the appearance of design is being well adapted to serve a purpose. Alien or Human-like designers are well adapted to serve the purpose of designing things. It’s unclear how being well adapted to serve a purpose can be the explanation for being well adapted to serve a purpose. That’s irrational.
And BTW knowledge implies a knower who understands it. Knowledge cannot exist in isolation. One can say that knowledge is a functional aspect of a larger whole. You are using the term in the context of blind particles bumping into each other, which renders the term meaningless.
The traditional use of a word is not an argument. For example, the term “atom” implies indivisibility. Yet, that wasn’t used as an argument against subatomic particles. Again, from Popper’s book Objective Knowledge..
“Let me repeat one of my standard arguments for the (more or less) independent existence of world 3. I consider two thought experiments: Experiment (1). All our machines and tools are destroyed, and all our subjective learning, including our subjective knowledge of machines and tools, and how to use them. But libraries and our capacity to learn from them survive. Clearly, after much suffering, our world may get going again. Experiment (2). As before, machines and tools are destroyed, and our subjective learning, including our subjective knowledge of machines and tools, and how to use them. But this time, all libraries are destroyed also, so that our capacity to learn from books becomes useless.”
Knowledge: Subjective Versus Objective, page 59 Clearly, there is a difference in these two thought experiments. That difference is due to the objectivity of knowledge independent of a knowing subject. Do you have any criticism of this beyond it’s not the traditional use of the word “Knowledge”? Would using a different word make it more palatable for you?critical rationalist
March 19, 2017
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cr @192:
Non-Explanatory knowledge
What is this? ----- Look, we can draw a vague analogy to the fact that people sometimes experience random events and sometimes learn by trial and error. But to suggest that the way a conscious, intelligent, aware, sentient being learns is equivalent to a random, purposeless, non-sentient, non-conscious, unintelligent natural process seems beyond the pale. It is wrong on its face and commits a serious conflation of two very different domains. It is still unclear exactly what you are trying to argue, with terms like "non-explanatory knowledge" and "no-design laws".Eric Anderson
March 18, 2017
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CR: A completely abstract designer merely has the property of “design”, which is like saying fire has the property of “dryness.”
Stop embarrassing yourself any further. You obviously don’t know the difference between the terms ‘epistemological’ and ‘ontological’. Simply put, ID is neutral on the identity of the designer, which doesn’t mean that the designer is ‘abstract’ or whatever. The designer(s) may be aliens, humans transported back in time, Zeus or some telic force. ID simply does not say. That’s all. And BTW knowledge implies a knower who understands it. Knowledge cannot exist in isolation. One can say that knowledge is a functional aspect of a larger whole. You are using the term in the context of blind particles bumping into each other, which renders the term meaningless.Origenes
March 18, 2017
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@Eric Anderson
It is simply a convenience label applied to the results of some change in a population. A change that took place due to random mutations, random environmental factors, the vagaries and hazards of nature, and so on. Those are the real causes. Natural selection isn’t doing anything.
Nothing in the above conflicts with the universal epistemological view that knowledge grows via variations controlled by criticism. Mutations plays the explanatory role of variation and natural selection plays the explanatory role of criticism. The objection that natural selection does not 'do anything'" in the traditional sense is arguing over the definitions of words. Again, knowledge is information that plays a casual role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium. That causality contains some approximation of truth in relation to the environment, which includes the organism itself. It is in that sense that it is selected by nature. IOW, what I'm suggesting is there is a universal explanation for the growth of knowledge in books, brains and even genes. While this explanation does take into account knowing subjects and people who are universal explainers, they are not required to create non-explanatory knowledge. Explanatory knowledge can only be created by people, which has significantly greater reach. Non-Explanatory knowledge can be created by both people and Neo-Darwinsim. It has significantly less reach. So, it's not that I'm ignoring what we know about designers. If anything, I'm suggesting the opposite is true. You're assuming there can be no explanation for what designers do and, therefore, unification by a shared underlying explanation is not necessary or even possible.critical rationalist
March 18, 2017
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@Phinehas
You’ve done it again. And here, you’ve even made a slight change by dropping the “defined” qualifier for limitations in the original formulation. Why did you do that?
A completely abstract designer merely has the property of “design”, which is like saying fire has the property of “dryness.” It does not say anything about what the designer knew and when it knew it. Nor does it have any limitations except it cannot design things that are logically impossible. For example, it cannot design itself, married bachelors, etc. That is a statement about abstract designers. ID’s designer is abstract and has no additional limitations defined by the theory itself. As such, no necessary limitations of the theory can be used in any sort of explanation for what it supposedly designed. That’s a statement about ID’s designer.
The designer is not defined and the designer’s limitations are not defined simply as an acknowledgement that an inference to design does not require this knowledge. This is not a statement about what is or is not necessary with regard to a designer. It cannot be such, because it is precisely the opposite. It is a deliberate lack of a statement about what is or is not necessary with regard to a designer.
Again, that is an epistemological assumption. I’m suggesting you are vastly underestimating the role that knowledge plays in an organism’s features and, therefore, the role knowledge would play in any designer that was supposedly responsible for those features. For example, I’d like to design a drug to cure cancer. However, regardless of what intention or purpose I had in formulating any such drug, it would only actually cure cancer if the necessary knowledge of what transformations of matter required to do so were actually present in it when administered. My mere desire, enthusiasm or benevolent intent are insufficient to actually cure cancer. Right? So, it’s unclear why knowledge is “not necessary with regards to a designer” and biological organism. Organism’s are well adapted to serve a purpose because they contain the knowledge of what adaptations (transformations of matter) should be performed which will result in a copy of that organism. They do not “phone home” to a designer to receive instructions as to what transformations to perform. Rather, those transformations only occur when the requisite knowledge is present in the organism itself. So, organisms are not only well adapted to serve a purpose but they are well adapted due to having the knowledge of how to construct their own features embedded in them as a storage medium. For example, to copy the knowledge of how to build a car onto a flash drive, its physical medium is transformed to embed that knowledge. In that sense, it is well adapted to serve a purpose (store that knowledge.) And the source storage medium of that knowledge would have been well adapted to that purpose as well, such as book or a human brain. So, the origin of an organism’s features is the origin of the knowledge of how to make a copy of itself. IOW, that knowledge is what needs to be explained. In the case of ID an explanation for this knowledge is either absent or irrational (based on bad epistemology) Any designer that “designed” an organism would have also been responsible for that knowledge being present, not just the organism’s features. So, said designer must have already possessed that knowledge, so it could have embedded it in the organism when it was created. Right? Otherwise, where did it come from? Did that knowledge spontaneously appear when the organism was “created”? Returning to my example, this is like adapting raw materials into a flash drive with knowledge of how to build a car already on it. Not only is necessary to possess the knowledge of which transformations to perform to result in the flash drive but also the actual knowledge of how to build a car, which determines which additional transformations are needed to embed that knowledge in the drive’s NAND cells. If that knowledge wasn’t present somewhere, it would have been spontaneously generated when the flash drive was “created.” Right? A designer that “just was”, compete with the knowledge of just the right genes required to result in just the right proteins, which result in just the right features, already present, doesn’t serve an explanatory purpose. That’s because one could more efficiently state that organisms “just were”, compete with the knowledge of just the right genes required to result in just the right proteins, which result in just the right features, already present. Neither explain the origin of that knowledge. And, in anticipation yet another straw man, "No.", the latter is not neo-Darwinism.critical rationalist
March 18, 2017
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CR:
An abstract designer with no limitations has no necessary consequences that must result in that order.
You've done it again. And here, you've even made a slight change by dropping the "defined" qualifier for limitations in the original formulation. Why did you do that? The designer is not defined and the designer's limitations are not defined simply as an acknowledgement that an inference to design does not require this knowledge. This is not a statement about what is or is not necessary with regard to a designer. It cannot be such, because it is precisely the opposite. It is a deliberate lack of a statement about what is or is not necessary with regard to a designer.Phinehas
March 16, 2017
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As I think others have hinted at, it is important to remember: Natural selection doesn't do anything. It is not a force of nature. It has no value or measure or vector. It is simply a convenience label applied to the results of some change in a population. A change that took place due to random mutations, random environmental factors, the vagaries and hazards of nature, and so on. Those are the real causes. Natural selection isn't doing anything. We observe a population at timepoint A. We observe the population at timepoint B. We notice some difference in the population and call it "natural selection".* It is really no more substantive than that. ----- * I should add that there are a number of changes in populations that would not even be properly assigned to "natural selection." But, at most, what we have with natural selection is the fact that we are observing a change and applying a convenience label.Eric Anderson
March 16, 2017
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CR: You don’t need teleology to effectively select things.
Oh yes you do. When you destroy 99% of your furniture by wielding a scythe blindfolded, you are not 'selecting' 1%. There is no selection of things in evolution. There is just an innumerous amount of all types of viable organisms — all produced by blind luck — and then there is an enormous amount of elimination. The organisms that we see are not 'selected', they are 'not eliminated' — the scythe of the grim reaper failed to do its job. It's important to note that this elimination has no explanatory power whatsoever wrt existent organisms. Elimination is not creative. Hugo De Vries said it in 1904:
Natural selection is a sieve. It creates nothing, as is so often assumed; it only sifts. It retains only what variability puts into the sieve. Whence the material comes that is put into it, should be kept separate from the theory of its selection. How the struggle for existence sifts is one question; how that which is sifted arose is another. … It is only a sieve, and not a force of nature, no direct cause of improvement, as many of Darwin’s adversaries, and unfortunately many of his followers also, have so often asserted. It is only a sieve, which decides which is to live, and what is to die … Of course, with the single steps of evolution it has nothing to do. [Hugo de Vries]
Elimination only explains the fact that some organisms no longer exist.
CR: That’s why it’s called “natural selection”. Quibbling over the definition of words doesn’t change the effective outcome and is not an argument.
No it's very important to use one's words carefully, otherwise one may ascribe powers to things that are not there.
CR: Call it whatever you like.
Alrighty, I call it 'absence of elimination'.Origenes
March 16, 2017
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@Phinehas
Where did Eric ever ask you to write a “better version” of the article?
Eric wrote:
I’m sure once you explain it to us in some clear detail we’ll be able to understand.
This implies the references I've provided lack "clear detail", which I would be expected to provide. is that not a "better version" of the article?critical rationalist
March 16, 2017
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@Origenes
Wrong. The absence of elimination does not equal ‘selection’. Selection implies teleology, which is not grounded by materialism.
You don't need teleology to effectively select things. That's why it's called "natural selection". Quibbling over the definition of words doesn't change the effective outcome and is not an argument. Call it whatever you like.critical rationalist
March 16, 2017
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This is an epistemological statement:
Yes, it is. I’m saying that epistemology is relevant because knowledge plays an important role in design, including the design of organisms. That’s part of what we know about human designers, for example.
Yet you take [ID’s designer is abstract and has no defined limitations] as an ontological one. Your argument assumes it is ontologically true. This is a simple category error. It does not follow that the above is true from an ontological standpoint simply because it is true from an epistemological one. Before you can argue as though it is ontologically true, you would need to demonstrate that this is actually the case, not merely potentially the case.
My point is that you're making the same sort of epistemological assumption. The assumption that all designers must necessarily have the epistemological limitations that current day human designers have, and therefore would have necessarily designed organisms in the order of least to most complex, does not follow, as I’ve illustrated. Furthermore, the idea that the future (or the distant past) will resemble the past is simply isn’t valid. For example, I do not think you assume that all designers must have complex, material brains because all designers we’ve observed do. On the other hand, if knowledge grows via variation and selection, which is what Darwinism implies, that would have necessary epistemological consequences for the present day system that we can empirically test for: the order of complexity in organisms. An abstract designer with no limitations has no necessary consequences that must result in that order. Even in the case of human designers, it will eventually not necessarily need to reuse parts. At best you can say that order is “just what ID’s designer must have wanted”, which is a bad explanation. Furthermore, human beings cannot have designed human beings. And human-like designers would be complex, knowledge laden entities that exhibit the same properties that need to be explained in human beings. Being “well adapted to serve a purpose (design things)”, cannot be the explanation for why things are “well adapted to serve a purpose.”critical rationalist
March 16, 2017
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CR: Unless evolution causes all organisms to go extinct, not all are eliminated. Right?
Right.
CR: So, what remains is selected.
Wrong. The absence of elimination does not equal ‘selection’. Selection implies teleology, which is not grounded by materialism.
CR: When we select one theory from many, we eliminate all but one.
I agree, but you cannot equate our teleologically driven theory selection with the absence of elimination in nature.
CR: Deciding to call it “elimination” instead of selection just muddies the waters.
Exactly the opposite is true. Materialism cannot ground teleological selection, it can only ground random elimination.Origenes
March 16, 2017
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CR:
Apparently, you expect me to write a better version of the high level article written by the author of the published paper, who actually took the time to write it for a popular audience.
Where did Eric ever ask you to write a "better version" of the article? I only saw him ask you to write something in your own words. Is that really such an unreasonable request?Phinehas
March 16, 2017
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CR:
What about it “doesn’t work” and why?
This is an epistemological statement:
ID’s designer is abstract and has no defined limitations.
Yet you take it as an ontological one. Your argument assumes it is ontologically true. This is a simple category error. It does not follow that the above is true from an ontological standpoint simply because it is true from an epistemological one. Before you can argue as though it is ontologically true, you would need to demonstrate that this is actually the case, not merely potentially the case.Phinehas
March 16, 2017
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@Phinehas
This looks to me like you are making an ontological conclusion from an epistemological premise. I don’t think that works. What follows appears to be built upon this initial error.
What about it "doesn't work" and why? Epistemology is key to the complexity of biology because the specific complicity is due to the knowledge those organisms contain. So, the origin of those features is the origin of that knowledge. Again, at some point in the future, that appeal won't hold with human designers, which is supposedly the inference for ID. This is why I keep saying, I'm *not* ignoring what we know about human designers. We know that knowledge plays an important role. Designers do not "magically" design things. Epistemology plays a key role in that explanation. So, if anyone isn't taking what we know about designers into account, it's you.critical rationalist
March 16, 2017
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@Eric Anderson Eric, I'm really quite confused by your response. Apparently, you expect me to write a better version of the high level article written by the author of the published paper, who actually took the time to write it for a popular audience. It's unclear why you expect a better outcome, even if I had the time. That's simply not reasonable. Now, if you have questions about the Aeon article, I'd be glad to field them, in detail. But merely saying it's "incoherent" isn't a question or good criticism.critical rationalist
March 16, 2017
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Evolution is mutation and elimination. Elimination destroys perfectly viable organisms and is a severe hindrance to evolution as a blind search.
Unless evolution causes all organisms to go extinct, not all are eliminated. Right? So, what remains is selected. When we select one theory from many, we eliminate all but one. The theory survives criticism. Deciding to call it “elimination” instead of selection just muddies the waters.
Darwin got it all wrong: existent organisms are the ones that got away. Instead of being created by ‘natural elimination’, exactly the opposite is true: they are “untouched” by ‘natural elimination’. Existent organisms are those organisms on which natural selection has precisely no bearing whatsoever. They are the undiluted products of chance.
Again, as I’m using in the context of this discussion, knowledge is information that plays a causal role in being retained when embedded in a storage medium. Publishers do not randomly decide to reprint an automotive repair book. The knowledge it contains plays a casual role in it being retained when embedded in a storage medium. Nor is that knowledge only useful 50% of the time, or some other random statistical distribution. It’s useful because it contains some approximation of truth in respect to the automobile in question. That is independent of any knowing subject. For example, if you ordered the plans to build a car but were accidentally shipped plans for a boat instead, you don’t end up with a car because you believed that’s what knowledge the plans contained. You still end up with a boat, assuming you continued to following the instructions to the end. That’s not random. The plan contains some approximation of truth as to how to build a boat. Anyones belief or desire won’t change that. In the case of neo-Darwinism, it’s not the survival of the fittest. That’s a straw man. Genes play a causal role in being passed down to the next generation. There is nothing “random” about the causality there, either. Nor does it randomly stop playing that casual role, if the environment doesn’t change. Again, that is independent of any knowing subject.critical rationalist
March 16, 2017
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CR:
However, ID’s designer is abstract and has no defined limitations. As such it’s not limited by what it knows, when it knew it, what resources or time has at it’s disposal, etc.
This looks to me like you are making an ontological conclusion from an epistemological premise. I don't think that works. What follows appears to be built upon this initial error.Phinehas
March 15, 2017
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CR:
Again, you are referring to variation in a single iteration of the loop. I’m referring to the net variation that occurs across multiple loops.
The "net variation that occurs across multiple loops" is already covered quite nicely by the term "evolution" isn't it? You basically say this in so many words:
Evolution isn’t just variation, it’s variation and selection.
It is no longer merely variation, so why insist on continuing to use that term? The variation itself is still very much random. What happens after the fact can't change this about it. "Selection," as used above, is a circularly-defined eliminative process dressed up in anthropomorphized, teleological clothes to make it look like it can accomplish more than a circularly-defined eliminative process ought to be able to accomplish. You've a long way to go to demonstrate that such a process can save randomness from itself.Phinehas
March 15, 2017
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If EA does not host such an article, I would. Remember, the challenge starts in Darwin's pond or the like pre-live environment and proceeds to the origin of body plans up to our own. In my underlying offer several years ago, I suggested a feature article of up to 6,000 or so words, with room for links etc but the main story must be summarised. As just one clue on the challenge, FSCO/I naturally comes in deeply isolated islands of function as the space of protein fold domains in AA sequence space shows aptly. In trying to cross a sea of non-function, there is no differential success to use as a culling filter, all alternatives are equally failing. The key challenge here is that to originate life and body plans, such intervening seas must be crossed. KFkairosfocus
March 14, 2017
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CR: Usually when you criticize a theory, you start with the actual theory, rather than a straw man.
Show me the straw man and the actual theory.
CR: Evolution isn’t just variation, it’s variation and selection. Again, if people here can’t even get that right, then I’m not sure how I can help.
Evolution is mutation and elimination. Elimination destroys perfectly viable organisms and is a severe hindrance to evolution as a blind search. It's important to note that elimination does not explain organisms, as Darwin believed.
Darwin: Thus, from the war of nature, from famine and death, the most exalted object which we are capable of conceiving, namely, the production of the higher animals, directly follows.
Darwin got it all wrong: existent organisms are the ones that got away. Instead of being created by ‘natural elimination’, exactly the opposite is true: they are “untouched” by ‘natural elimination’. Existent organisms are those organisms on which natural selection has precisely no bearing whatsoever. They are the undiluted products of chance.Origenes
March 14, 2017
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Yes, you've led us down a rabbit hole with this so-called "constructor" theory that you claim addresses a critical puzzle that origin of life researchers have been frustrated with for decades -- the puzzle KF focused on in the OP. The "constructor" theory's alleged application to biology is unfortunately completely incoherent, referencing nonsense like "no-design laws" that are supposed to help bring about life, and a bald-faced claim that a "highly inaccurate, non-purposive construction . . . eventually produced knowledge-bearing recipes out of elementary things . . ." There is exactly zero explanation how this could occur in the real world or why it should be taken seriously. It is unclear why anyone would be so gullible as to believe such rubbish. It was a nice attempt at smoke and mirrors and I'm sorry that you are frustrated people didn't just roll over and accept the fancy-sounding terminology. I don't give a hoot whether someone got a paper published about this nonsense. People have gotten gibberish published before. What I'm asking for is a simple exposition. Nothing too grand. You don't need to write an essay or a lengthy article. A few paragraphs is sufficient. Something short -- in your own words, in plain English -- that would explain how you think this so-called constructor theory applies to the origin of life and addresses the long-standing problem of information content. ----- Time isn't an issue. You've posted so many comments on this thread you could have written up a brief description in half as much time. I've even offered you your own head post so that you can explain your views. There are a couple of possibilities here: 1- You sincerely believe this "constructor" theory, but aren't quite able to explain it or to articulate how it works. This is understandable. It seems incoherent, so explaining it would be a challenge. 2- You realize this "constructor" theory is nonsense and that you threw out a literature bluff, so you are trying to avoid actually having to explain the thing. This often happens when true believers wade into territory they don't understand and then do a quick Google search to come up with some "explanation" they can throw at the wall to see if it sticks. No problem. We understand not everyone is familiar with the issues. You're in good company. Nick Matzke offered up a similarly-nonsensical literature bluff a while back about a so-called "kinetic theory" that was supposed to help explain the origin of life. They had a published paper too. :) In the first case, I would hope that you would nevertheless give it a try so that we can understand where you are coming from. Writing it up will also cause you to undergo the very valuable process of actually thinking through the issues. In the second case, fine, don't bother. We realize it is probably a literature bluff anyway. I just wanted to offer you a chance to explain things -- assuming you are sincere in your beliefs about it.Eric Anderson
March 13, 2017
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@Eric Anderson Evolution isn't just variation, it's variation and selection. Again, if people here can't even get that right, then I'm not sure how I can help. Why should I bother writing up what's already written in a high level Aeon article and expanded on with two published papers?critical rationalist
March 13, 2017
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