Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Here’s one bad reason for rejecting ID …

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… theistic evolution/Christian Darwinism.

I rarely write about religion on Tuesdays, but this got shoved in my (news writer Denyse O’Leary’s) face recently, and makes a nice illustration of a bad reason for opposing ID, for Sal’s files of bad arguments against ID.

A scientist contacted me about a technical matter related to writing (no surprise, I write for a living).

He, a religious man, had been thinking about science in relation to his faith for some years. I asked him what he thought about the ID theorists. He said that they demeaned God by making God responsible for bad designs, of which—he says—there are a great many in the world.

I pointed out that in an imperfect world, even the best designs can only be optimal, not perfect. But never mind, for now let’s assume there are lots of suboptimal designs.

So then God isn’t responsible for them? Who is?

Evolution, he said. Of course, he means Darwinian evolution. (Natural selection acting on random mutation produces the whole world of life, as it were, by accident.)

And God isn’t responsible for that? Well, he admitted I had him there. Then he started blathering about how nature could somehow be inside God and …

I was tempted to just hang up. If he wants to be a pantheist, he had better go join a religion that takes pantheism seriously. But professional courtesy required me to answer the technical questions asked of me.

Before that, however, I asked him this question:

Have you ever encountered a passage in the Bible, where Moses is arguing with God on Mt. Horeb? Moses is (understandably) trying to get out of returning to Egypt to confront Pharaoh. He offers the fact that he isn’t much of an orator (or, depending on your interpretation, has a speech impediment). God replies,

Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

Now, can we all please just take our “Bible” glasses off for a minute and look at what is being said here?

Here at the heart of one of the most significant encounters in the Torah, God explicitly and unequivocally takes complete responsibility for causing some to be blind and others to see. It is not an accident. He causes it.

Are you listening, Christian Darwinist? There is no religious argument against ID based on imperfection if your starting point is the Jewish or Christian religion. God says he both invented the eye, before which Darwin trembled, and deprives some of sight. So isn’t it just a little bit, well, arrogant of you to misrepresent information theory-based critiques of Darwinism in order to defend God from an accusation he admits to?

Look, I don’t think the ID controversy is about religion as such at all. But if some insist on dragging religion into it, I wish they had the moral decency to represent God as he says he is.

Of course, some people might respond by saying they wouldn’t worship a God like that. It is entirely up to them if they take it upon themselves to be wiser than God, and refuse to worship. I thank God if they live some place where they have the religious freedom to choose that.

I also think that they are closer to the heart of things than the theistic evolutionists/Christian Darwinists. They are at least listening to what the Bible actually, unambiguously, represents God as saying about imperfections in life forms.

That is better than writing their own theistic evolutionist/Christian Darwinist Bible and using it to bash critiques of Darwin that they don’t understand, don’t want to understand, and feel compelled to misrepresent.

Sal, file under: If you are an observant Christian or Jew, note that God takes responsibility for designs that didn’t work (Ex 4:11). Such flops are not a religious argument against design in nature if you adhere to either of those religions.

Comments
It would all depend on how they died. And even then it may be tragic, but that doesn't make it bad. Hopefully we learn something from it, and that would turn a tragedy into something positive.Joe
June 26, 2013
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#38 Joe That's fair enough - let me rephrase that William do you agree that the premature violent death of 250,000 people is a bad thing?Mark Frank
June 26, 2013
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Death is not wrong. Without death we would over populate and run out of resources.Joe
June 26, 2013
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William #32 You sound a bit like a moral relativist. I could set about justifying why the death of 250,000 people is wrong but that is potentially a lengthy discussion. If you agree it is wrong then we don't even need to have that debate. Do you agree it is wrong or not?Mark Frank
June 26, 2013
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I find the same attitude Denyse describes amongst TEs, who personify evolution as a free agent (literally) to distance alleged "bad design" from God - as if a designer isn't responsible for his machine running amuck. But I also find the attitude amongst Creationists and IDers - because it's the norm in Evangelical Christianity now, though it once wasn't. Barb above says that for God to bring blindness would be against his character - yet I thought we learned his character from the Bible, and Exodus is in that Bible. It lives up to the biblical claim that God's ways are higher than ours - so how come we scream blue murder whenever that's shown to be the case? Ex 4.11 doesn't mean that God is not loving towards his creation, because the Bible says he is: and if we can't fit those two facets of God together it's not up to us to censor our Bible to suit our preferences, or what we were taught in Sunday School. Eric reinterprets "make" as "allow" - so I suppose the passage where God says, through the prophet, "I create disaster" (=bara as in "God created the heavens and the earth") really means "I allow diaster to create itself"? If the Spirit meant "allow", why didn't he say so? I note that Paul, in Cyprus, pronounced that the hand of the Lord was against Elymas the sorcerer, and he became blind for a time. Now, was that God "allowing" blindness to strike just at that fortuitous moment, or was God acting out of character, or was the Apostle God appointed for the Gentiles sinfully producing a psychosomatic disorder on his very first important foreign preaching date? Or alternatively, have we lost the Bible's sense of awe at both the kindness and sternness of God. Is it not good to accept that in creation, as in the death of Eli's sons, "He is Yahweh. Let him do what seems right to him"? Better, surely, than putting him in a box of our own making.Jon Garvey
June 26, 2013
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Andre @ 29: The thought of perfection is expressed through Hebrew terms drawn from such verbs as ka·lal? (perfect [compare Eze 27:4]), sha·lam? (come to completion [compare Isa 60:20]), and ta·mam? (be completed, come to perfection [compare Ps 102:27; Isa 18:5]). In the Christian Greek Scriptures the words te?lei·os (adjective), te·lei·o?tes (noun), and te·lei·o?o (verb) are used similarly, conveying such ideas as bringing to completeness or full measure (Lu 8:14; 2Co 12:9; Jas 1:4), being full grown, adult, or mature (1Co 14:20; Heb 5:14), having attained the appropriate or appointed end, purpose, or goal (Joh 19:28; Php 3:12). For correct Bible understanding one must not make the common error of thinking that everything called “perfect” is so in an absolute sense, that is, to an infinite degree, without limitation. Perfection in this absolute sense distinguishes only the Creator, Jehovah God. Perfection of any other person or thing, then, is relative, not absolute. (Compare Ps 119:96.) That is, a thing is “perfect” according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user. The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when “completion” has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final Arbiter of perfection, the Standard-Setter, in accord with his own righteous purposes and interests.—Ro 12:2 As an illustration, the planet Earth was one of God’s creations, and at the end of six creative ‘days’ of work toward it, God pronounced the results “very good.” (Ge 1:31) It met his supreme standards of excellence, hence it was perfect. Yet he thereafter assigned man to “subdue it,” evidently in the sense of cultivating the earth and making the whole planet, and not just Eden, a garden of God.—Ge 1:28; 2:8.Barb
June 26, 2013
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Earthquakes provide us with valuable scientific data. Why would God rob us of that?Joe
June 26, 2013
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Mark Frank:
You mean God is unable to make plate tectonics happen without earthquakes?
I didn't say anything about God. Nor does the fact that earthquakes happen mean that God is unable to prevent them. If people choose to live in earthquake areas that is up to them.
What an extraordinary thing to say.
What a typical non-response.
What choice did the children have?
I would say they had plenty of choices as there are places that are not in earthquake zones.
Or the adults who were too poor to live elsewhere and lived hundreds of miles away from the earthquakes without any idea that it might cause an unprecedented tsunami.
How much money did the first hominds that left Africa have? That's the standard story, right? Out of Africa (without any money, ie very poor). And if you are going to live near the ocean then you had better understand it. If not you do so at your own peril.Joe
June 26, 2013
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Mark Frank said:
#22 William Are you seriously arguing that the death of 250,000 innocent people might not be a bad thing?
I see you are doubling down on your appeal to emotion. I made no such claim on my part. I am pointing out the flaw in your "argument", which is that you are making an emotional appeal that has no substantive basis. What is your criteria by which you judge what is "better" or "worse" for the universe? Or, are you claiming that in all possible perspectives, those deaths make the universe "worse off"? As I said, in the views of some extreme environmentalists, the death of 250,000 humans is a good thing, and makes at least the world a better place. That's not my position, but it is **a** perspective. Without an absolute standard by which "better" or "worse" can be substantively measured, all we are left with are your attempts to manipulate others emotionally. Is there or is there not an absolute standard by which we can measure if the universe is a "better" or "worse" place after any event?William J Murray
June 26, 2013
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Joe
LoL! We wouldn’t be alive without earthquakes. We need plate tectonics. We wouldn’t be alive without them.
You mean God is unable to make plate tectonics happen without earthquakes? Not so omnipotent after all.
If people choose to live in earthquake areas that is up to them.
What an extraordinary thing to say. What choice did the children have? Or the adults who were too poor to live elsewhere and lived hundreds of miles away from the earthquakes without any idea that it might cause an unprecedented tsunami.Mark Frank
June 26, 2013
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I am not convinced. Consider the 2004 earthquake that killed nearly 250,000 people of which, of course, a large proportion would have been children and babies. It is very hard to see how the universe would not have been a better place without that earthquake.
That is an understandable perception, but if humans in a sense are the enemy of God, then the more difficult question is why we being evil are given grace... Here is an excerpt from my essay Malicious Intelligent Design and Questions of the Old Testament God
But how then can God find such guilt in little babies that He should feel justified in destroying them in the way the children of Israel carried out His judgment? One solution is to say that God doesn’t find guilt in the children, and that they died for some other reason. For those that accept ID is true, but don’t believe the Bible is God’s word, a solution is to say that the children of Israel were murderers and that the Old Testament is just spinning their acts of genocide to be something good. Surely everyone has an opinion on the matter, and I will not venture to say who is right or wrong. Few answers are consoling, and perhaps the right answer is even terrifying. How is it possible God finds guilt in a little baby? I will venture my humble opinion by saying God left answers for us in the pictures of intelligently designed biology. When we exterminate other creatures for our own good will and pleasure (like that rat or cockroach), we don’t think of ourselves being unjust, in fact, just the opposite. Hard as it is to accept, perhaps in the scheme of things, humans apart from God’s mercy and love, are like those detestable cockroaches which we give no thought to exterminating. Did the cockroach suffer cruelly when I terminated its life? Yes, but in the scheme of what I view as the greater good, my malicious act toward the cockroach was a good thing. He may not think so, but I do. In like manner perhaps, we are a lot less “good” in the universal scheme of things than we suppose. What, if in fact, we are the villains in the Divine Drama without realizing it. God’s grace is the grace that enlightens us to our true position in the scheme of things. Apart from his mercy, perhaps we’re not as deserving of His goodness as we presume. So if God terminates someone’s life, even if by human standards it seems horribly cruel, in the end that is not the standard by what He judges as good or bad. Sometimes we don’t know if the suffering is because of one’s guilt in God’s eyes or if God had a higher purpose (as was the case in Jobs life). Thus when God ends the life of humans violently (be it through natural disasters or wars or plagues), he has a right to do so. He may recruit the forces of nature, microbes, humans or various malicious intelligent designs to execute judgment. That is my view, and it is not a popular one, but if the intelligent designer of life is the intelligent designer of the plagues that destroyed Egypt and the plagues that will continue to injure humanity, it would seem He is an Intelligent Designer that is to be feared. The question then is how we can find it in ourselves to love a God who can do these things? This would almost seem like asking a cockroach to worship me after I just exterminated its family! Now, if we feel we deserve a good life and heaven, I suppose it would be hard to love God, but if we feel we deserve a bad life and hell, and instead are granted eternal life, our viewpoint changes, and it becomes possible to love God. But, those are my views, and I don’t mean to argue that they should be the views of the readers, or that I’m even close to being right. I’m sure many will find my solution to the problem of malicious design and an Old Testament God an awful solution. That’s fine, but we can’t run away from the evident fact of malicious design, and if the Intelligent Designer is the Old Testament God, we can’t run away from the fact of the malicious designs he has created in this world.
scordova
June 26, 2013
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Barb Not once does the bible say creation is perfect, it says it is good, very good and not so good. That is in English, the Hebrew word use is tov, that means functional. There is nothing in scripture on a perfect creation, nada, zip, zero.Andre
June 26, 2013
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Andre writes, Where in the Bible did it ever say it was perfect? Citation please? Did you even read my post? You know, the one with all the scriptures?Barb
June 26, 2013
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LoL! We wouldn't be alive without earthquakes. We need plate tectonics. We wouldn't be alive without them. If people choose to live in earthquake areas that is up to them.Joe
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth:
Proximally, what causes evolution is self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment (as well, as, it turns out, as heritable phenotypic variance not correlated with reproductive success, but Darwin didn’t know that).
Darwinian evolution requires the variance to be happenstance.
Science may however be able to rule out non-divine intelligent involvement.
Science has ruled it in.Joe
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth:
In my view, ID should focus on “intention” rather than “intelligence” or cause.
We do, Elizabeth. Intelligent Design means intentional design by some aganecy.
Darwinian evolution can do lots of things (including create functional features that serve a teleonomic purpose),
Evidence please. Your continued bald assertions are meaningless here, Lizzie. They may work on your forum, but not here. Here you have to provide evidence for your claims.Joe
June 26, 2013
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#22 William Are you seriously arguing that the death of 250,000 innocent people might not be a bad thing?Mark Frank
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Nice reply, I’m happy to see that you are not ruling out a uncaused cause. In this cause and effect universe, an uncaused cause is the best current explanation regardless of what people’s feelings might be about the uncaused cause.
We simply cannot do that, scientifically. In any case, as far as we can tell, modern physics explicitly posits "uncaused" particles. In my view, ID should focus on "intention" rather than "intelligence" or cause. The issue, to my mind, is not between "Intelligent Design" and "Unintelligent Design" but between "Intention" and "Non-intention". I think the great mistake ID makes (and I blame Dembski) is in looking for a pattern that signifies "Design" rather than a pattern that signifies "Intention". Behe always had a better argument, and arguments that say that the ribosome, for example is unevolvable, or that functional proteins are unevolvable, are much better than arguments that say "500 bits it isn't chance!" Darwinian evolution can do lots of things (including create functional features that serve a teleonomic purpose), but there are some things it can't create (self-replicators, for instance, and possibly some kinds of self-replicated things). The focus on poor old Darwin, who was a great man and a great scientist, is bad for both Darwin and ID. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Darwin's theory. It just doesn't do what some people claim, and what others claim they claim, which is rule out an Intentional Designer.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 26, 2013
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I am not convinced. Consider the 2004 earthquake that killed nearly 250,000 people of which, of course, a large proportion would have been children and babies. It is very hard to see how the universe would not have been a better place without that earthquake.
That would be of some value in a debate if you could offer an objective standard by which "the universe" could be judged on whether it was "better off" or not. Many environmentalists consider the world a better place the fewer humans that exist. From a materialist perspective, the loss of those humans is of no more comparative value than all the wildlife that died, and there is no "better" or "worse" standard - physics does what physics does. You're stealing a concept, Mark Frank. All you are using here is emotional pleading, counting on theists to be as outraged as you at the idea of a god that lets countless innocent people - including children - die & suffer. Any reasonable person would immediately spot the flaws in your comment; how can anyone of our perspective claim "the universe" would be "better off" with or without that earthquake? You are welcome to express your sentiment, but sentiment does not a rational argument make.William J Murray
June 26, 2013
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William #17
I suggest that we have no means available to us to rationally judge whether or not the world, as it is, is “perfect” or the “best” of all possible worlds because we do not have anywhere near the kind of information it would take, or the kind of perspective it would take, to make such a judgement.
I am not convinced. Consider the 2004 earthquake that killed nearly 250,000 people of which, of course, a large proportion would have been children and babies. It is very hard to see how the universe would not have been a better place without that earthquake.Mark Frank
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth "Science may however be able to rule out non-divine intelligent involvement." I like this statement very much! you're so right it ain't natural!Andre
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth Nice reply, I'm happy to see that you are not ruling out a uncaused cause. In this cause and effect universe, an uncaused cause is the best current explanation regardless of what people's feelings might be about the uncaused cause.Andre
June 26, 2013
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Andre:
All good except that evolution is an effect not the cause itself. So what caused evolution?
Depends whether you want a more proximal or more distal cause. Proximally, what causes evolution is self-replication with heritable variance in reproductive success in the current environment (as well, as, it turns out, as heritable phenotypic variance not correlated with reproductive success, but Darwin didn't know that). What caused the first entities able to self-replicate with heritable variance is at present unknown - but chemistry and physics were certainly involved. Whether divine tinkering was also involved is not known. Almost certainly, non-divine tinkering was not involved. What caused physics and chemistry is known to some extent - it's a result of certain features of our universe. What caused those features is, AFAIK, not known. I should make it clear that nothing in science can rule out divine involvement. Science may however be able to rule out non-divine intelligent involvement.Elizabeth B Liddle
June 26, 2013
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I suggest that we have no means available to us to rationally judge whether or not the world, as it is, is "perfect" or the "best" of all possible worlds because we do not have anywhere near the kind of information it would take, or the kind of perspective it would take, to make such a judgement. Materialists who make such an argument can only be making appeals to emotion, because their view is that no such standard exists. Theists that believe God to be the source of good, and the innate manifestation of good, must rely on faith (in that premise) that the world is the way it is, and must be, for a good purpose.William J Murray
June 26, 2013
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keiths said:
The God of the Bible is not perfectly loving and perfectly merciful; far from it.
According to what standard of perfect love and mercy? There is no grounds to make such a statement from a materialist perspective. It cannot be anything other than emotional pleading/rhetoric.William J Murray
June 26, 2013
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Elizabeth All good except that evolution is an effect not the cause itself. So what caused evolution?Andre
June 26, 2013
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The alternatives are; mindless zombies, or to not exist at all. I prefer option 1, a less than perfect world that allows me to choose freely.
How about the option: a less-than perfect world in which the capacity to choose evolved? That's my choice ;)Elizabeth B Liddle
June 26, 2013
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Andre - how would doing without earthquakes/malaria/dementia limit our free will or ability to be alive?Mark Frank
June 26, 2013
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I do however believe that for a universe that can sustain biological life and allow its creatures like you and me to have free will it is about as optimal as it can be.I base it on two observations... Since I do not know of any other these reasons are sufficient. 1.) I am alive 2.) I can exercise my free willAndre
June 26, 2013
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No I do not, this is a temporary universe, it has good, very good and not so good with the promise that the universe after this one will be perfect.Andre
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