Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Here’s one bad reason for rejecting ID …

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… theistic evolution/Christian Darwinism.

I rarely write about religion on Tuesdays, but this got shoved in my (news writer Denyse O’Leary’s) face recently, and makes a nice illustration of a bad reason for opposing ID, for Sal’s files of bad arguments against ID.

A scientist contacted me about a technical matter related to writing (no surprise, I write for a living).

He, a religious man, had been thinking about science in relation to his faith for some years. I asked him what he thought about the ID theorists. He said that they demeaned God by making God responsible for bad designs, of which—he says—there are a great many in the world.

I pointed out that in an imperfect world, even the best designs can only be optimal, not perfect. But never mind, for now let’s assume there are lots of suboptimal designs.

So then God isn’t responsible for them? Who is?

Evolution, he said. Of course, he means Darwinian evolution. (Natural selection acting on random mutation produces the whole world of life, as it were, by accident.)

And God isn’t responsible for that? Well, he admitted I had him there. Then he started blathering about how nature could somehow be inside God and …

I was tempted to just hang up. If he wants to be a pantheist, he had better go join a religion that takes pantheism seriously. But professional courtesy required me to answer the technical questions asked of me.

Before that, however, I asked him this question:

Have you ever encountered a passage in the Bible, where Moses is arguing with God on Mt. Horeb? Moses is (understandably) trying to get out of returning to Egypt to confront Pharaoh. He offers the fact that he isn’t much of an orator (or, depending on your interpretation, has a speech impediment). God replies,

Who gave human beings their mouths? Who makes them deaf or mute? Who gives them sight or makes them blind? Is it not I, the LORD?

Now, can we all please just take our “Bible” glasses off for a minute and look at what is being said here?

Here at the heart of one of the most significant encounters in the Torah, God explicitly and unequivocally takes complete responsibility for causing some to be blind and others to see. It is not an accident. He causes it.

Are you listening, Christian Darwinist? There is no religious argument against ID based on imperfection if your starting point is the Jewish or Christian religion. God says he both invented the eye, before which Darwin trembled, and deprives some of sight. So isn’t it just a little bit, well, arrogant of you to misrepresent information theory-based critiques of Darwinism in order to defend God from an accusation he admits to?

Look, I don’t think the ID controversy is about religion as such at all. But if some insist on dragging religion into it, I wish they had the moral decency to represent God as he says he is.

Of course, some people might respond by saying they wouldn’t worship a God like that. It is entirely up to them if they take it upon themselves to be wiser than God, and refuse to worship. I thank God if they live some place where they have the religious freedom to choose that.

I also think that they are closer to the heart of things than the theistic evolutionists/Christian Darwinists. They are at least listening to what the Bible actually, unambiguously, represents God as saying about imperfections in life forms.

That is better than writing their own theistic evolutionist/Christian Darwinist Bible and using it to bash critiques of Darwin that they don’t understand, don’t want to understand, and feel compelled to misrepresent.

Sal, file under: If you are an observant Christian or Jew, note that God takes responsibility for designs that didn’t work (Ex 4:11). Such flops are not a religious argument against design in nature if you adhere to either of those religions.

Comments
Andre, Do you think this is the best of all possible worlds?keiths
June 26, 2013
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So what you're really angry about Graham is the fact that God gave you free will... The alternatives are; mindless zombies, or to not exist at all. I prefer option 1, a less than perfect world that allows me to choose freely.Andre
June 26, 2013
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KeithS Then please enlighten us how you would create a universe where creatures have the ability to choose freely? Do you understand that in a perfect universe you will not be able to exercise your free will? Example; I want to kill you because you said I was fat. In a perfect universe you can't die. So you can not get killed and I can't kill you. So now my choice to kill you is being prevented by the fact that you can't die. Another example of the problem with a perfect world. I love rugby, and in a perfect world my team will win every single game every single time. Now how will that work in a perfect world for supporters of other teams? Since everything is always perfect we will also never have an opportunity to use our emotions, you will always only have a single emotion and you will not be aware or even capable of anything else.. How is that going to work? Can you love or hate when there you only a single emotion or nothing? What about a car accident? In a perfect world it will never happen so would I ever have to make the choice to assist the victims of the car crash? The list of problems with free will and a perfect universe is endless....Andre
June 26, 2013
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Denyse, I rarely find myself in agreement with you, so when it does happen, it's worth noting. You are right about the Bible. It depicts a God who is absolutely and unambiguously the source of much suffering and evil, for humans and animals alike. It continually amazes me that so many Christians who are adamant in asserting the truth of the Bible seem determined not to believe in the God who is actually depicted therein. The God of the Bible is not perfectly loving and perfectly merciful; far from it.keiths
June 26, 2013
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Robert Where in the Bible did it ever say it was perfect? Citation please? Perfect creationism is a man made myth just like Darwinian evolution!Andre
June 26, 2013
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The bible teaches everything went from perfection to imperfect at the fall. Our immune system went bad and everything else. there is no bad design but bad redesign from a system working outside a creators hand. Its just on automatic since the fall.Robert Byers
June 25, 2013
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Denyse Thank you for this post. This ties in with my conversation with TJGUY on another thread the other day about perfect creation. God told us up front things where made good, very good and not so good. God takes full responsibility for ALL natural evil and He says so a few times in the Bible another example; Isiah 45:7 "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things." What God does not take responsibility for is moral evil because we have been given free will to choose good from evil. A God that tells me right in the beginning that things are going to be good, very good and not so good, that is a God worth trusting because His word is consistent with my experience here on earth! Things are sometimes good, very good and not so good.....Andre
June 25, 2013
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I disagree that God is responsible for human disabilities. Looking at the question again: In the Bible, Exodus 4:11 reads: “Who appoints the speechless or the deaf or the clear-sighted or the blind? Is it not I, Jehovah?” Does this mean that God is responsible in every case for such defects as deafness and blindness? No, as this would be out of harmony with God’s whole personality. The Bible tells us: “With evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” (Jas. 1:13) His acts are always purposeful. Never does he bring calamity upon a person without good reason. He is the source of “every good gift and every perfect present.” (Jas. 1:17) “Perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he.”—Deut. 32:4. In harmony with this, we see that it was by their own choice that the first human pair, Adam and Eve, lost their perfection and hence their ability to produce perfect children. (Job 14:4) As their descendants married, more and more imperfections began to be manifest among humans, including physical defects such as blindness and deafness. Because he has allowed this to develop, Jehovah God could speak of himself as ‘appointing’ the speechless, the deaf and the blind. (Compare Romans 8:20, 21.) Moreover, he fully understands such handicaps and their causes. Also, Jehovah God has not shielded persons from the sad consequences that disobedience can bring on the physical organism. God’s unchangeable law is: “Whatever a man is sowing, this he will also reap.” (Gal. 6:7) Thus children born of incestuous relationships may be born defective; they may be blind, deaf and otherwise handicapped from birth. Persons indulging in sexual immorality may contract a venereal disease leading to their becoming blind, deaf or even insane. The same might be true of children born to a woman infected with venereal disease. When it is in agreement with his purpose and ways, Jehovah God can literally cause people to become blind, deaf or speechless. Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, is an example of this. When Zechariah expressed doubt upon learning that he would become father to a son by his aged wife Elizabeth, the angel Gabriel said to him: “You will be silent and not able to speak until the day that these things take place, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their appointed time.” (Luke 1:20) Zechariah was then for a time made mute, not able to speak until the circumcising of his eight-day-old son.—See also Acts 13:8-11. Still another way in which God “appoints” the speechless, the deaf and the blind is in a spiritual sense. If people choose to be deaf and blind to his message, he permits them to persist in unbelief. This was the case with unfaithful Israel in the time of Isaiah the prophet. Isaiah was told: “Go, and you must say to this people, ‘Hear again and again, O men, but do not understand; and see again and again, but do not get any knowledge.’ Make the heart of this people unreceptive, and make their very ears unresponsive, and paste their very eyes together, that they may not see with their eyes and with their ears they may not hear, and that their own heart may not understand and that they may not actually turn back and get healing for themselves.”—Isa. 6:9, 10. Since Jehovah God knew the heart condition of the unfaithful Israelites, he foreknew that they would fight against his message. The more Isaiah would call Jehovah’s word to their attention, the more they would harden themselves against it. In this way Isaiah’s prophesying revealed or made evident the full extent of their spiritual blindness and deafness. The effect of this was as if they had been made spiritually deaf and blind. Hence, in view of what Jehovah God has done and can do, the Scriptures speak of him as ‘appointing’ the speechless, the deaf and the blind. But he is not directly responsible for all cases of such physical handicaps. These physical defects have come about mainly through God’s permitting a sinful human race to come into existence. In a few cases and for specific purposes Jehovah God caused physical blindness and speechlessness; he has made spiritual blindness and deafness to become manifest in those who fail to exercise faith in his word or message. On the other hand, he has also granted spiritual sight and hearing to those seeking to do his will and, through the rulership of his kingdom by Christ, will free humankind from all physical handicaps.—Isa. 61:1, 2; Rev. 21:3, 4.Barb
June 25, 2013
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Good thoughts. I think the verse's reference to "make" can also be interpreted in the sense of "allows" them to be mute or blind, etc. In other words, it isn't necessary that God reaches in and personally messes something up in each and every case, but he allows it. Further, and I think this is really your larger point, if God made the whole system, set up the parameters, chose when to intervene and when not to, then, yes, in a very real sense He makes himself responsible for it all. So your point is spot on. Faulty design, or cruelty in nature, or things that make us squeamish -- these are not arguments against God. They are only arguments against a caricature of God that supposes God should, if He were to exist, place us in a state of endless comfort, blessed with eternal sunshine and flowers. Nowhere in scripture is there any suggestion that mortal life will or should be like that. So one can be disappointed in God if He doesn't meet one's expectations, and may even refuse to believe in such a God. But to think this constitutes a powerful argument for God's nonexistence is incorrect.Eric Anderson
June 25, 2013
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Thank you for the anecdote and your very well-articulated rebuttal. I just edited my OP to include this in my list of bad arguments for rejecting ID. :-) Amazing how many Christians argue from the gospel according to Darwin rather the Bible. Thanks!scordova
June 25, 2013
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