Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Theistic evolution: All evolution, no real theism

Categories
theistic evolution
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

But you knew that, didn’t you?

From Waynesburg University (Pennsylvania) biology prof Wayne Rossiter, author of In the Shadow of Oz, :

I’ve jumped to the final (summary chapter, offered by Neil Spurway), because it is one of the more dramatic examples of just how far theistic evolution can go. Here we finally see someone willing to essentially throw in the towel. For starters, he offers “for me a naturalistic account of any aspect of being human is, quite simply, the only sort of account which can be correct.” He emphasizes that many of the things we believe make humans an exception to the animal kingdom (what has been called a “revolution” rather than an “evolution”) are simply points along a sliding scale. “Every owner of a horse or dog is quite clear” of primitive conditions of consciousness, morality and love. He goes on, “For me, the imago dei simply is the sum of such properties: the sum is larger in a human being than in any other animal.”

Spurway then justifies his allegiance to naturalism: “The whole evolutionary process is God-given, not any individual step.” This of course, as I’ve been saying for a while now, is an undemonstrated assumption. Since on his view, no matter what we find, God did it, absolutely any religion could make the same claim with complete immunity. This view that everything can be explained naturalistically, such that all naturalism is God’s way of working, is given far more credence than it should be. On this view, the best evidence for God’s activity in everything is our complete inability to detect Him in anything. That is, on Spurway’s view, we can explain everything in the natural world without invoking God. So why do we include Him?

When written as plainly as Spurway puts it, we can then see why concepts like creationism or intelligent design are anathema to the theistic evolutionist. For those such as Spurway, any suggestion that God (or any agent) would be required to explain any particular phenomenon somehow suggests that the God/agent isn’t present in the others. But is that true? Take the resurrection as an example. More.

Theistic volution can explain away any evidence of design. Its only purpose has been to get Christians used to rule by naturalist atheists. And the first rule is: No design

See also: Theistic evolution empties theism of meaning

and

What the fossils told us in their own words

Comments
I see that once again Seversky is not going to respond to one of my challenges [see 4 and 22 above]. It is a pattern with him. He offers a feeble "argument"; I present an articulate, informed response; he goes silent. I guess he feels outmatched by me. Which is not surprising, since he is outmatched by pretty well everyone. That's why his posts are mostly drive-by shootings; he can't sustain an argumentative conversation.Timaeus
July 27, 2016
July
07
Jul
27
27
2016
05:50 AM
5
05
50
AM
PST
Since TEs believe (and it is a belief, not science, as all they have with respect to evolution is very circumstantial inferences based on a very limited amount of data interpreted through a methodological naturalistic lens that rules out GOD or any kind of intelligent designer) that there is no evidence in our universe for the reality of an intelligent designer (a conclusion based on definitions, not a lack of evidence), why do they believe that there is a god of some kind out there responsible for the existence of our universe, world, and life? Do they believe in a god behind the scenes because of their faith tradition, family loyalty, upbringing, or perhaps some psychological need for some purpose to their life, or perhaps the need of some kind of hope beyond this present world, or maybe the result of some sort of mystical spiritual experience? Why do they profess faith in a deity, a behind the scenes intelligent designer, when they believe that everything could have come into existence through natural means alone? TEs claim that it is because of faith, and I ask faith in what or whom? TE’S clearly do not believe the testimony of the HOLY SPIRIT through the prophets and apostles in His Word. The HOLY SPIRIT has clearly in very simple straight forward easy to understand words testified that people can indeed objectively see GOD’S glory revealed in the universe (Psalm 19) and that there is no excuse for intelligent people not to recognize the power and wisdom of GOD revealed in His creation (Romans 1). In fact, the HOLY SPIRIT refers to those who deny GOD’S existence as blind and foolish. Why would they be blind and foolish if there is nothing in creation that gives a clear testimony to GOD? Most TEs do not believe the testimony of CHRIST to the historical reality of Adam and Even or to the global flood. Most TEs do not accept the testimony of the prophets and apostles to the historical reality of Adam and Eve or of their fall into sin and darkness (which includes the human mind) which has resulted in suffering and death throughout our world. They do not believe the HOLY SPIRIT’S testimony that our world was “very good” when it was created, which means it was perfect because all GOD does is perfect as JESUS testified in Matthew 5. Something is not “good” to GOD, unless it is perfect. JESUS testified that only GOD is “good” (Mark 10:18), and by that He meant Holy and perfect in every way. TEs believe that “very good” includes disease, violence, suffering and death. If according to their own beliefs that some kind of a god is the creator of all of these realities of our world, then they certainly do not believe in the same GOD that CHRIST was the visible manifestation of and that the prophets and apostles testified to. Further, if they believe that all of these realities are very good, why bother to try to heal diseases or end violence, would it not be in keeping with GOD’S “very good” ways to increase these things instead of trying to prevent them. Why should the lost world believe in a god that is the creator of all of the suffering and death that they experience in life? Lastly, since they believe that these realities are very good, do they believe that they will be part of heaven, since it is the same god who creates both? Is heaven a cycle of suffering, death and reincarnation? TEs say they believe in some kind of god and some kind of Jesus on the basis of faith, but it obviously isn’t faith in CHRIST or the HOLY SPIRIT or the writings of the prophets and apostles. It is not faith in the truthfulness of GOD. In fact they believe that GOD intended to deceive His people for the past 6000 years with respect to creation, since it is very clear that the prophets, apostles and even JESUS believed in the creation account of Genesis. Only TEs in their “enlightenment” (see JESUS words in Matthew 6:22-24) understand on the basis of secularized science, which by definition eliminates GOD as a direct cause for anything in this universe, that GOD’S glory cannot be seen in His creation. Many TEs say that they have a “high view” of Scripture, whatever that means to them. They may hold to a “high view” of Scripture, however they hold to an even higher view of their own reasoning ability and the beliefs of secularized science. Like all liberal theologians they pick and choose the teachings of CHRIST and His prophets and apostles that fits in with their philosophy of life and discard anything that is contrary to their secularized thinking on origins. Further, in their theological sophistication, they arrogantly look down upon the poor country bumpkins who still believe in the creation as testified to by CHRIST, His SPIRIT and His prophets and apostles, and, on the basis of their superior intelligence they refuse to listen to those who can clearly see the amazing glory of GOD in the irreducible complexity and vitality of His creation. If TEs subjected the rest of Scripture to the same methodological naturalistic approach that they do to Genesis, there would be no JESUS left to believe in. There would be no virgin birth, no miracles, no resurrection. The whole testimony to the life of CHRIST can be seen as merely literary devices meant to communicate some message that only the theological elite are bright enough to discern. For example, if one thousand 21st century scientists using the principles of methodological naturalism were given a sample of the wine from JESUS miracle revealed in John 2 to test whether it was really wine and where it originated from, what would they conclude? After conducting a battery of tests they determine that it is real wine. Their conclusion therefore is that since it is genuine wine, that its origin is the same as all genuine wine produced in our world today. Specifically, they conclude that it was produced through a lengthy process of the growing of the grape vines, which produced the grapes, which were then harvested and the juice pressed out and fermented. All of which took place over a period of many months, or perhaps years. After finishing their tests, they proudly publish their results in one thousand peer reviewed papers in scientific journals to the applause of their secular and TE colleagues. Of course there wouldn’t be a single peer reviewed paper that would conclude otherwise. Even if such a paper were written and submitted it couldn’t be published because it wouldn’t be real 21st century science based on methodological naturalism. Their case is overwhelmingly convincing to anyone who chooses to view the world and their life on the basis of methodological naturalism. Now let’s also assume that they could so some historical investigation and were able to interview the servants who served the wine and asked them: “Where did this wine come from?” The servants told them that this man by the name of JESUS had told them to fill some barrels with water and then instantly the water was transformed into wine. Based on their presuppositions and their extensive knowledge and understanding of the process of fermentation the thousand scientists would certainly reject the testimony of these witnesses and conclude that either they were drunk at the time, or perhaps had concocted this myth to protect them from being accused of stealing someone else's wine barrels. From the perspective of methodological naturalism these are the only conclusions they can arrive at. Their conclusions were already present in their presuppositions. The point is clear: If you apply the presuppositions of methodological naturalism to determine the origin of our universe, life, kinds of life, or of any of the other miracles testified to by the SPIRIT in the Scriptures, including JESUS’ virgin birth, the miracles of His ministry, or His resurrection, you will be forced by your presuppositions to conclude that all of these accounts are mythological, merely literature. Perhaps they may have had their origin is some actual naturalistic reality, but were exaggerated and massaged to create the impression of being miraculous for religious propaganda purposes. The resurrection of JESUS would be viewed as either an outright fabrication as a result of religious delusions based on mystical experiences of dreams or visions of JESUS, or something that grew out of JESUS being resuscitated from a coma and then transformed into a resurrection story. Or, perhaps JESUS followers were a bit tipsy when they wrote the stories, but people being gullible the stories caught on and spread. What would theistic evolutionists say about the wine and the one thousand peer reviewed papers that declared that the wine was not miraculous? Based on the arguments I have read from TEs on the creation issue, if they are consistent in their approach to Biblical teachings, they would have to affirm the conclusions of their scientific peers that the wine was not a miracle of JESUS, but the result of the natural fermentation process. However, TEs would add that this story is a parable, a literary device used to communicate some esoteric truth. They may suggest that this is a parable about JESUS and the truth that He really did love His mother and that GOD is the creator of wine through natural processes, and therefore this is a call to celebration and the multiplication of booze to help all of the creationists and ID people out there to loosen up a bit. They would also add that it is not important for salvation whether a person believes that JESUS actually did this miracle or not, all that is important is that a person believes in JESUS. Of course, if the conclusions of methodological naturalism are applicable to the account of the transformation of water into wine, they would also be applicable to all of the other stories about JESUS including His resurrection from the dead. As many TE theologians of the past, and present in churches today, suggest, JESUS resurrection is merely a parable or mythology where the what, who and when doesn’t matter, all that counts is the message that there is some kind of existence beyond the grave in some kind of “better place”. Anyone who rejects the historical testimony of the HOLY SPIRIT in the Bible because it is contrary to methodological naturalism has no other option but to conclude that it is all religious mythology and nothing more. Further, if the faith of TEs is not based on the objective realty to the historical truths testified to by the HOLY SPIRIT, and Genesis is certainly a historical book, it is nothing more than personal beliefs based on some philosophical, psychological or mystical spiritual experiences, no different than those holding to Hinduism, Islam, or any other of the myriad of religious beliefs out there. TE is a false “enlightenment” that leads many into darkness as is evidenced by the increasing darkness in our nations today as we have turned from the GOD testified to by His SPIRIT in His Word.aap
July 26, 2016
July
07
Jul
26
26
2016
12:37 PM
12
12
37
PM
PST
I suppose that makes your and my comments irrelevant also (assuming you are not an evolutionary biologist)! :-)
That's cute. Thanks. No, I mean Keith's comments are irrelevant to my critique.StephenB
July 26, 2016
July
07
Jul
26
26
2016
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PST
Stephen writes,
Miller’s comment is irrelevant. He is a geologist.
I suppose that makes your and my comments irrelevant also (assuming you are not an evolutionary biologist)! :-)jdk
July 26, 2016
July
07
Jul
26
26
2016
07:04 AM
7
07
04
AM
PST
SB: They are not disinterested scientists. They are ideological hacks pushing an atheist agenda.
This is harshly stated, but it supports my point: the people you quote are also confused about the distinction between what we know through science and a materialistic metaphysical interpretation of that knowledge.
The people I quote define the mainstream science of evolutionary biology, the same science that you and your TE associates claim to follow. The mainstream science of biology, for which I could provide many more examples, includes the metaphysical claims about lack of guidedness. It is part of the Neo-Darwinian paradigm and the mechanism of unguided evolution. That was the whole point in citing them. You either accept or reject the mainstream science of evolutionary biology, which is also the bogus science of evolutionary biology. If you do reject it, then say so. Please don't try to argue that it isn't mainstream science. Once you do reject the mainstream science of evolutionary biology, complete with its metaphysical assumption of unguided evolution, we can discuss the alternative--guided evolution. Meanwhile, you have a choice to make.StephenB
July 26, 2016
July
07
Jul
26
26
2016
07:04 AM
7
07
04
AM
PST
Keith Miller
Scientific observation provides no proof of the existence of a creator God, indeed it cannot. Neither does scientific description, however complete, provide any argument against a creator.
This is just silly. Miller embraces methodological naturalism. Of course science provides no evidence for a Creator God if you rule out all the evidence for a creator God in advance. In any case, Miller's comment is irrelevant. He is a geologist. I am not pointing out the contradictions in the mainstream science of evolutionary geology. I am pointing out the contradictions in the mainstream science of evolutionary biology.StephenB
July 26, 2016
July
07
Jul
26
26
2016
06:50 AM
6
06
50
AM
PST
Stephen writes,
They are not disinterested scientists. They are ideological hacks pushing an atheist agenda.
This is harshly stated, but it supports my point: the people you quote are also confused about the distinction between what we know through science and a materialistic metaphysical interpretation of that knowledge. Of course you can quote people who are stating the scientific perspective without carefully separating the physics from the metaphysics. But dualing quotes don't decide issues: reasoned argument does. Saying that the universe has a purpose or that it has no purpose are both metaphysical statements. The universe just is what it is, and science describes it. Deciding that it does or does not have purpose, or that it is designed to be what it is, or not, are decisions individuals make about their metaphysical beliefs. The TE view I am describing accepts the theory of evolution, as described by Keith Miller.
By evolution, I mean the theory that all living things on Earth are descended from a common ancestor through a continuity of cause-and-effect processes. I believe that there are no necessary breaks or gaps in causal explanations. That is, all transitions in the history of life are potentially explicable in terms of "natural" cause-and-effect processes.
This understanding does not preclude evolution from being a continuous creative act of God. What the TE view does claim, and this is a sectarian theological view outside the scope of science, is that God has acted through natural causes throughout the evolution of life on earth. The fact that these natural causes contain contingent events (which we see as random or chance), as all histories do, doesn't mean that they weren't, or couldn't have been, also part of God's creative activity.jdk
July 26, 2016
July
07
Jul
26
26
2016
06:36 AM
6
06
36
AM
PST
Jdk
The scientific view, which the TE accepts, is that science makes no judgment as to whether there is divine purpose or plan in nature: it is a-purposeful.
On the contrary. TEs accept the science of biology as it is presented to them by the evolutionary biologists. That is what both mean as "science." Evolutionary biologists do, indeed, make judgements about guidedness, goals, plans, and purposes. All you need to do is read a biological textbook or attend an academic conference. From Miller & Levine: Biology Evolution works without either plan or purpose … Evolution is random and undirected. Douglass Futuyma: This experiment conveys the essence of natural selection: it is a completely mindless process without forethought or goal. In 2005, 39 Nobel Laureates wrote the Kansas State Board of Education to inform them that “evolution is understood to be the result of an unguided, unplanned process of random variation and natural selection.” National Association of Biology Teachers (before Eugenie Scott scolded them LOL):“The diversity of life on earth is the result of evolution: an unsupervised, impersonal, unpredictable and natural process of temporal descent with genetic modification." TEs accept this nonsense on the grounds that biological "scientists" are experts to be trusted. There is only one problem: They are not disinterested scientists. They are ideological hacks pushing an atheist agenda. (94% of evolutionary biologists are either atheist or agnostic). But that doesn't stop the TEs from lapping it up like hungry dogs.StephenB
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
08:58 PM
8
08
58
PM
PST
Stephen says,
However, they contradict their own principle every time they say evolution is purposeful from a theological point of view and purposeless from a scientific point of view.
This quote shows the primary source of Stephen's misconception about the TE perspective I am describing. The scientific view, which the TE accepts, is that science makes no judgment as to whether there is divine purpose or plan in nature: it is a-purposeful. The materialist makes the positive statement that nature is purposeless, which is a metaphysical statement that goes beyond what science can claim. The TE does not agree with the materialist on this metaphysical point. As Keith Miller says,
Scientific observation provides no proof of the existence of a creator God, indeed it cannot. Neither does scientific description, however complete, provide any argument against a creator.
Science does not provide the argument that nature is purposeless, any more than it can show that there is purpose. "Purposeness" or the lack thereof are not qualities accesible by science. Another quote,
Science restricts itself to proximate causes, and the confirmation or denial of ultimate causes is beyond its capacity. Science does not deny the existence of a Creator– it is simply silent on the existence or action of God. ... It is certainly not a statement of the nature of cosmic reality. Science pursues truth within very narrow limits. Our most profound questions about the nature of reality (questions of meaning and purpose and morality), while they may arise from within science, are theological or philosophical in nature and their answers lie beyond the reach of science.
jdk
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
06:53 PM
6
06
53
PM
PST
Thanks, rhampton7, for both your posts. First, this is well said:
some TEs can accept randomness and unguided processes as true descriptions WITHIN our universe while simultaneously being known and planned for by God who is OUTSIDE it
That is exactly the issue. I also agree with you that the self-righteous contempt and dismissal of the views of people who I know are devoutly Christian, theologically sophisticated, and scientifically literate is bothersome, and unseemly. But I have argued these same points with StephenB, Barry, and others here in the past, and am not going to spend my time doing so again.jdk
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
05:32 PM
5
05
32
PM
PST
As I said, I've been there and done that. I don't mind that you insist that all TEs are fundamentally wrong, it's the utter contempt that I'm increasingly bothered by. Thought I'd save jdk the time and trouble.rhampton7
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
04:56 PM
4
04
56
PM
PST
RH7 @ 40:
That’s not a problem once you realize that arguments along these lines are pointless.
I shall translate from Darwin-speak into plain English: "Accepting our conclusions is not a problem once you realize that it is pointless to appeal to us on the basis of logic and evidence (i.e., argument), as StephenB insists on doing."Barry Arrington
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
04:32 PM
4
04
32
PM
PST
RH7, Since you are feeling frisky, perhaps you would like to help out your fellow Christian Darwinists. They claim (rightly) that there is no conflict between the truths of religion and the truths of science. However, they contradict their own principle every time they say evolution is purposeful from a theological point of view and purposeless from a scientific point of view. How do you reconcile those two statements?StephenB
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
04:27 PM
4
04
27
PM
PST
jdk, Take it from someone who's been down this path before, you're never going to get StephenB to acknowledge that some TEs can accept randomness and unguided processes as true descriptions WITHIN our universe while simultaneously being known and planned for by God who is OUTSIDE it. StephenB insists its either one or the other no matter how many other theologians and philosophers say otherwise. So when you speak of dice or any other sufficiently random process, it will make no impact on his thinking. That's not a problem once you realize that arguments along these lines are pointless.rhampton7
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
03:50 PM
3
03
50
PM
PST
jdk
That is, is it justifiable to see this event, from a human point of view, as a lucky chance event and also see it, theologically, as a manifestation of God’s will and purpose?
On the one hand. it would not be justifiable to say from a theological point of view that it was God's ordained will and from a human point of view it was mere good fortune. It must be one or the other. On the other hand, it would be justifiable to say from a theological point of view that it was God's permissive will and may also have been good fortune from your point of view. God's permissive will would allow for both interpretations. God's ordained will would not. But that is not the main issue. Under no circumstances would it be justifiable if, like the TEs, you had already told everyone you know as a matter of principle that there is no conflict between God’s actions and your perception of those actions, when in fact the very opposite would be the case. Recall that TEs claim (rightly) that there is no conflict between the truths of religion and the truths of science. However, they contradict their own principle every time they say evolution is purposeful from a theological point of view and purposeless from a scientific point of view. Conflicts don’t get any bigger than that. Again, Theistic Evolution is full of contradictions. You provide the context, and I will provide the contradiction. Several examples are already on the table--and none of them have been challenged. Theistic Evolution cannot survive rational scrutiny.StephenB
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
01:07 PM
1
01
07
PM
PST
Consider this scenario: A man leaves home to catch a flight at the airport. On the way a sudden gust of wind blows a loose newspaper page across his windshield, he is distracted, and he has a small accident. Because of his accident, he misses his flight, which then crashes and all on board are killed. The man then says "It was God's will - part of his plan for my life - that I was not to die today." Is the man theologically justified in making this statement, or is that statement an unjustified rationalization for what was really just a piece of luck? That is, is it justifiable to see this event, from a human point of view, as a lucky chance event and also see it, theologically, as a manifestation of God's will and purpose?jdk
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
06:05 AM
6
06
05
AM
PST
Theistic evolution is a belief in a demiurge, not in the all-powerful and all-knowing God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. TE's god is a watchmaker, not a loving God. Seversky's rhetorical questions should be directed to people, not to God. God had warned us, people, hadn't He? These rhetorical questions are in fact Adam's first response to God. 'It is your responsibility, God, not mine"... God, the real God, fully participated in the sufferings of this world to the point of accursed death on the Cross like an outcast criminal, in order to grant Redemption and Immortality to man.EugeneS
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
05:52 AM
5
05
52
AM
PST
#35 Which part of random unguided evolutionary theory isn't random or unguided? Is it the part that puts a fin on a fish, or the part that uses combinatorial permutations to encode high-content information?Upright BiPed
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
04:52 AM
4
04
52
AM
PST
"That Darwin’s random, unguided, naturalistic mechanism can drive the entire evolutionary process from start to finish." no one believes this. why are you railing against strawmen?evnfrdrcksn
July 25, 2016
July
07
Jul
25
25
2016
01:07 AM
1
01
07
AM
PST
jdk: I throw the dice. I don’t know whether it will come up 7 or not. God knows: not only does he know, but whether it comes up 7 or some other number is a product of his will, as are all things. You just made the above statement which is clearly outside the realm of science. It is not outside the purview of philosophy so that I am allowed to observe that a designer who is surprised by the chance outcome of evolution is not the real designer, therefor the insertion of the idea of "random mutation" coming up with surprises for the real designer is an absurdity. Evolutionary processes converging on working designs thus cannot be random. I can't scientifically prove this statement and you can't prove yours. It is however overwhelmingly the best inference from observation and philosophy. BTW Darwin to my mind never came up with a definition of "random" that would have excluded correlative dependencies between mutation events. He at least never came up with methods of measurement of correlation between events because he never identified the events themselves. I can never seem to get professionals in the life sciences to identify a single "random mutation" in a chain of such which generated any structure. Funny science, this science. Miller: Intelligent design really says nothing about “How” God creates. A complete waste of ink indicating that the author knows not of what he speaks. Zero apparently. 1. ID says NO-THING about the identity of the designer. 2. ID says NO-THING about creation. 3. ID says NO-THING about "how" anything. I can justify 1~3 by examining the ID motivated research by Douglas Axe over the past several decades in which nothing in 1~3 has been identified in the research. Now I'm not going to waste your time by claiming my belief in the designer as not supernatural. However there is plenty of room in the ID community for people not ready to embrace supernatural agency. Some of the ID superstars fit this category, David Berlinski is one. Other examples are people following the project with open mind without endorsement such as atheist philosopher Thomas Nagel.groovamos
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
09:40 PM
9
09
40
PM
PST
jdk
For the record, since I’m pretty sure you didn’t read this:
I already know Miller's position. He is a Darwinist, though he doesn't always disclose that fact.
The TE’s I am describing accept evolutionary science from the point of view of human beings, with our limited perspective, but they also accept the metaphysical interpretation that the course of evolutionary history reflects God’s will.
They say that until someone asks them a hard question about what they could possibly mean, at which time they have nothing more to say.
I throw the dice. I don’t know whether it will come up 7 or not. God knows: not only does he know, but whether it comes up 7 or some other number is a product of his will, as are all things.
God knows that fair dice cannot guarantee a 7. God also knows, for the same reason, that it is impossible for random processes to produce a specified outcome. It's a simple as that. Do you question the point? If so, we can discuss it further.
You may correctly understand the position of some TE’s (although I would doubt that), but you are not understanding what I am saying.
I think it is the other way around. I don't think you understand what I am saying.
The TE’s I am describing accept evolutionary science from the point of view of human beings, with our limited perspective, but they also accept the metaphysical interpretation that the course of evolutionary history reflects God’s will.
If they were really interested in God's point of view, then they would accept the evidence for biological design and reject the Darwinian paradigm, for which there is no evidence at all--none. Yes, there is evidence for common descent, but that is not the same thing at all. Like Miller just did, most TEs carry on endlessly about the evidence for macro-evolution, which is not controversial. Meanwhile, they ignore their responsibility to defend the really important claim: That Darwin's random, unguided, naturalistic mechanism can drive the entire evolutionary process from start to finish. That's Darwinism, and no one, certainly not Keith Miller, can defend it. Nevertheless, TEs continue to recruit Christians in their camp while avoiding all significant challenges coming from those who can penetrate their linguistic fog.StephenB
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
09:37 PM
9
09
37
PM
PST
Seversky: Cancers? Alzheimer’s disease Diabetes? Malaria? Spontaneous abortions? Earthquakes? Floods? Droughts? Wars? Starvation? Radiation? Just to name a few. I can name a couple more, murder, plus name-calling and insults by materialists on UD. Yes yes all these awful things in the universe make it a dreadful universe for sure. These things of course would never be in a universe invented by Seversky. Therefore Seversky gets to be really on it about the universe since (s)he didn't get to invent it. A universe which invented itself in no time at all since time didn't exist. A universe which forgot to plan ahead for cancer, except ahead didn't exist to plan about. Suggestion for materialists: why not just go ahead and admit you're mad at the universe. Angry at it for having invented itself and all these things, for example the awful liquid core of the planet which constantly quakes and renews the land masses for land based life to run around on instead of the god-awful rain washing it into the seabeds. And for inventing your life too, maybe you're mad at the universe about that.groovamos
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
09:02 PM
9
09
02
PM
PST
YEC's, insofar as they are YEC's, accept Darwinian science, which teaches that evolution is unguided and that biological design is an illusion.Mung
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
08:51 PM
8
08
51
PM
PST
jdk
TE’s (I speak only for the point of view I am representing here) are not making any special claims about evolution: they are just stating an orthodox view of how to understand God’s presence in the world.
I am sorry, but you are flat out wrong. TEs, insofar as they are TEs, accept Darwinian science, which teaches that evolution is unguided and that biological design is an illusion. That position is in direct conflict with Romans 1:20, which I alluded to earlier. God’s designs in nature are obvious. So much so, that those who deny it are “without excuse.” Read it for yourself. Also, you are evading the main issue. TE style evolution is incompatible with Christian Theology. It is the TE claim that a purposeful, mindful God can use a purposeless, mindless evolutionary process to achieve His specific ends. In fact, that proposition is not logically possible. Perhaps an analogy will help: [a] I load the dice such that the number 7 will appear every time. (specified result) I designed the process so that 7 is guaranteed to appear. It is the only possible outcome because I have closed off all others. If I hadn’t closed them off, I couldn’t guarantee the result. (God-Guided evolution) [b] I use fair dice, in which case there are eleven possible outcomes. This is an open ended process that will allow any outcome from 2 to 12, including 7. I cannot guarantee that I will get 7. I may get 7, but it is unlikely. The reason I cannot guarantee that 7 will appear is because the process is opened up so that other numbers can come up as well. (unguided Darwinian Evolution). Notice that the loaded dice and Guided evolution produce a specified outcome and that the fair dice and unguided Darwinian evolution produce an indeterminate outcome. Just as it is impossible for fair dice to guarantee a 7, it is impossible for a random evolutionary process (as posited by the TEs) to guarantee God’s specific intentions. Thus, Darwinian evolution, which will likely not reflect the Creators apriori intent, cannot be reconciled with Christianity, which requires a process that can guarantee the desired outcome.StephenB
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
08:23 PM
8
08
23
PM
PST
I throw the dice. I don't know whether it will come up 7 or not. God knows: not only does he know, but whether it comes up 7 or some other number is a product of his will, as are all things. You may correctly understand the position of some TE's (although I would doubt that), but you are not understanding what I am saying. The TE's I am describing accept evolutionary science from the point of view of human beings, with our limited perspective, but they also accept the metaphysical interpretation that the course of evolutionary history reflects God's will. For the record, since I'm pretty sure you didn't read this:
Evolutionary Theory And Continuous Creation by Keith B. Miller Introduction Simply stated, my position is that there is no inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and a Christian faith with a high view of scripture. By evolution, I mean the theory that all living things on Earth are descended from a common ancestor through a continuity of cause-and-effect processes. I believe that there are no necessary breaks or gaps in causal explanations. That is, all transitions in the history of life are potentially explicable in terms of "natural" cause-and-effect processes. This theory is no mere guess or hunch, but an extremely well-supported explanation of the observed record of organic change. It has great explanatory power in drawing together an incredibly wide range of data from many disciplines in an explanatory framework. It has been very effective in generating fruitful and testable hypotheses that have driven new discoveries and advanced our scientific understanding of the universe. I accept the Bible as authoritative and true in what God intends it to communicate. However, simply accepting the truth of the Biblical writings does not indicate the meaning of those writings. Just as our observations of the natural world must be interpreted within some explanatory framework, scripture also must be interpreted. There is no such thing as an objective reading of scripture. The question for the Christian is then - What is the best interpretive framework for any given passage of scripture? I am convinced that the best interpretation of the first chapters of Genesis is a literary one in which neither time nor chronology are part of the intended message. Finally, I fully and unhesitatingly accept the doctrine of creation. God is the Creator of all things and nothing would exist without God's continually willing it to be. Creation was not merely a past accomplished act, but rather is a present and continuing reality. The best term for this view of God's creative activity is "continuous creation." I also believe that God's existence can be known in the creation through faith. However, scientific observation provides no proof of the existence of a creator God, indeed it cannot. Neither does scientific description, however complete, provide any argument against a creator. Since God acts through process, evolution and the theology of creation are perfectly compatible. In fact, I see them as positively reinforcing. An evolutionary understanding of creation illuminates our theological understanding, and theology places our scientific discoveries in a more comprehensive context and provides necessary moral guidance in the scientific endeavor. Discussion Much of the controversy over evolution and creation seems to rest firmly on the widely held view that evolution and Christianity are in irreconcilable conflict. However, this conflict view has been thoroughly discredited by both theological and historical scholarship. Christian theologians (including evangelicals) have long recognized that a faithful reading of Scripture does not demand a young Earth nor does it prohibit God's use of evolutionary mechanisms to accomplish His creative will. Many evangelical Christians at the time of Darwin found no inherent conflict between evolutionary theory and scripture. In fact, several of the authors of the "Fundamentals" (the set of volumes that gave us the term “fundamentalist") accepted some form of evolutionary theory. One of these was B.B. Warfield, a theologian who argued forcefully for Biblical inerrancy, and who accepted the validity of evolution as a scientific description of origins. Probably the most prominent advocate of evolutionary theory in America in Darwin’s time was Asa Gray, a committed evangelical Christian. Evolution has been viewed by many theologically orthodox Christians, since the publication of The Origin of Species, as a positive contribution to understanding God's creative and redemptive work. For many, important theological truths concerning the nature of humanity, the goodness of creation, God's providence, and the meaning of the Cross and suffering find renewed significance and amplification when applied to an evolutionary view of God's creative work. The integration of an evolutionary understanding of Earth and life history with theological understandings of God's creative and redemptive activity has yielded important insights. The fruits of these efforts need to be more widely known and discussed. There is a desperate need to diffuse the heated conflict which has grown up around the issue of evolution. The evolution/creation "warfare" view has effectively inhibited productive popular dialogue on important theological and scientific issues. Despite the long theological dialogue with evolutionary theory, many people continue to view evolution as inherently anti-theistic and inseparably wedded to a worldview that denies God and objective morality. Although this understanding of the meaning of evolutionary theory is strongly promoted by some, its conflation of metaphysical naturalism with evolution is widely rejected as philosophically, theologically, and historically false. Science is a methodology, a limited way of knowing about the natural world. Scientific research proceeds by the search for chains of cause-and-effect, and confines itself to the investigation of "natural" entities and forces. This self-limitation is sometimes referred to as methodological naturalism. Science restricts itself to proximate causes, and the confirmation or denial of ultimate causes is beyond its capacity. Science does not deny the existence of a Creator-- it is simply silent on the existence or action of God. Methodological naturalism simply describes what empirical inquiry is. It is certainly not a statement of the nature of cosmic reality. Science pursues truth within very narrow limits. Our most profound questions about the nature of reality (questions of meaning and purpose and morality), while they may arise from within science, are theological or philosophical in nature and their answers lie beyond the reach of science. Theology, like science, must take account of the evidence at hand. While distinct, our scientific and theological understandings must inform each other if we are to be intellectually whole persons. Theology and science, while addressing different realities and different questions, are not hermetically sealed ways of knowing. Maintaining clear definitions of different types of knowledge actually aids in their integration. The confusion of metaphysical naturalism with evolutionary theory inhibits the productive interaction between the sciences and Christian theology. It does so by injecting into a scientific theory a metaphysical worldview which is simply not part of the theory. One commonly held perspective that tends to reinforce a conflict view of science and faith is that God's action or involvement is confined to those events which lack a scientific explanation. Meaningful divine action is equated with breaks in chains of cause-and-effect processes. This view has been called a "God-of-the-gaps" theology. God's creative action is seen only, or primarily, in the gaps of human knowledge where scientific description fails. With this perspective, each advance of scientific description results in a corresponding reduction in the realm of divine action. Conflict between science and faith is thus assured. However, this is a totally unnecessary state of affairs. God's creative activity is clearly identified in the Bible as including natural processes, including what we call chance or random events. According to scripture, God is providentially active in all natural processes, and all of creation declares the glory of God. The evidence for God's presence in creation, for the existence of a creator God, is declared to be precisely those everyday "natural events" experienced by us all. Thus Christians should not fear causal explanations. Complete scientific descriptions of events or processes should pose no threat to Christian theism. Rather, each new advance in our scientific understanding can be met with excitement and praise at the revelation of God's creative hand. Responses To Specific Issues Chance There is much confusion over the meaning of the terms "chance" and "randomness." These are often seen as antithetical to God's action. Many people understand the word "chance" as implying a purposeless, meaningless, and accidental event. Scientifically, chance events are simply those events whose occurrence cannot be predicted based on initial conditions and known natural laws. Such events are, however, describable by probabilistic equations. This understanding of chance is not in any way in conflict with God's creative action. The Bible, in fact, describes a God who is sovereign over all natural events, even those we attribute to chance such as the casting of lots or tomorrow's weather. This perspective has been placed into a modern scientific context by some modern theologians who see God's action exercised through determining the indeterminacies of natural processes. God is thus seen as affecting events at both the quantum level and at the level of large chaotic systems. Regardless of how one understands the manner in which God exercises sovereignty over natural process, chance events certainly pose no theological barrier to God's action in and through the evolutionary process. Design And Gaps Seeking scientific evidence for divine action in the failure of present scientific description actually has the effect of diminishing the perception of God's action in the physical universe. The very designation of only certain events or structures as "intelligently caused" relegates all others to the status of "unguided natural processes." The argument from design should not be reduced to searches for gaps in scientific description. God is personally active in all natural processes, and all of creation is purposefully designed by God. All creation declares the glory of God. The evidence for God's presence in creation, for the existence of a creator God, is precisely those everyday "natural events" experienced by us all. To reduce it to gaps in our scientific explanation does, I believe, great disservice to the witness of God in creation. As I have said elsewhere, "If a person cannot see God in a sunset or a thunderstorm, he or she will not see Him in a strand of DNA or a mitotic spindle." The argument from design is that God is praised and revealed through all that He has made. My objection to the arguments of "Intelligent Design" proponents is not that they posit design, but that they restrict its meaning to only certain structures or processes and make it subject to scientific verification. Design Vs. Creation Design is often discussed as though God's action is analogous to the work of an engineer or artisan. Such human action involves the imposing of form on preexisting materials. What the engineer or artisan can do is limited by the nature of those materials. By contrast, a divine creator brings into existence the very materials themselves. God creates the substance as well as the form. If God was indeed completely free in creating, then the properties of matter would correspond perfectly to God's creative plan. We would thus expect nature to have the inherent capabilities to bring forth what God desires. This has been termed the "functional integrity of creation" by Howard Van Till. Such a perspective is much more consistent with the continuity of processes in the physical universe than an engineering view of God's action. It makes the discovery of each new natural capability, or each new link in the history of creation, an opportunity for the praise of God rather than another obstacle to faith or challenge to the doctrine of creation. Design Vs. Mechanism Intelligent design really says nothing about "How" God creates. It does not propose a theory for the mechanism of change. If it does not address this issue, then it does not contribute anything to the scientific description of the history of life. I believe that all of creation is designed by God and has its being in God, but that does not give me any insights into the processes by which God brought that creation into existence. Questions of ultimate origins are important, but they are philosophical and theological questions, not scientific ones. Science does not and can not deal with ultimate questions of meaning or purpose. Design is a concept used in science, but not in the same way in which intelligent design advocates use it. The origin and evolution of anatomical features are discussed in terms of adaptation to environmental stresses and opportunities. Biological structures and systems have particular functions and purposes for which they were selected. Science routinely deals with design and purpose in this context. Deism It is often argued that if God does not intervene in creation by breaking the continuity of natural process, then God is not acting in a way that really matters. Those Christians who accept a gapless evolutionary description of the history of life are often labeled as deists. However, such a characterization could not be farther from my view, in which all natural processes are the personal, purposeful act of a creator God. God is both transcendent over creation, and immanent in creation. God's creative power is continually at work, even now. I believe that the biblical view is that God upholds all physical reality moment to moment. God is intimately and actively involved in what we perceive as "natural" or "law-governed" processes. I thus see no distinction between God's activity in "natural" and "miraculous" events. If one accepts this theological view, which I believe is thoroughly orthodox, then a completely seamless evolutionary history of life would be entirely acceptable theologically. In other words, such a scientific description would not violate one's understanding of the nature and character of God. I would argue that an interventionist view of God is much closer to deism than my view. It implies that God is somehow withdrawn, or at least uninvolved in creation, except during special exceptional events. As others have noted, a doctrine of God's occasional intervention is really a doctrine of God's usual absence. Methodological Naturalism (MN) Some Intelligent Design (ID) advocates argue that MN arbitrarily and unjustifiably excludes supernatural agency from scientific explanation. This exclusion of God from scientific description is believed to unnecessarily restrict the search for truth. It does nothing of the sort. If God acted in creation to bring about a particular structure in a way that broke causal chains, then science would simply conclude that -- "There is presently no known series of cause-and-effect processes that can adequately account for this structure, and research will continue to search for such processes." Any statement beyond that requires the application of a particular religious worldview. Science cannot conclude "God did it." However, if God acted through a seamless series of cause-and-effect processes to bring about that structure, then the continuing search for such processes stimulated by the tentativeness and methodological naturalism of science may uncover those processes. Using an ID approach, the inference to "intelligent design" would be made, and any motivation for further research would end. Thus, ID runs the risk of making false conclusions, and prematurely terminating the search for cause-and-effect descriptions when none are yet known. Furthermore, how would a gap in the causal chain be discovered unless continuing effort was expended in searching for possible "natural" causes? Thus even the verification of gaps requires research conducted using MN assumptions. Some nontheists see God as an unnecessary addition to a scientific description of the universe. In fact, God is unnecessary, or rather irrelevant, for a scientific description, but a scientific description is not a complete description of reality. Scientific methodology excludes appeals to supernatural agents by definition. To then use this methodological exclusion to support a philosophical/religious exclusion is completely fallacious. That science does not make reference to God says nothing about whether or not God is actively involved in the physical universe or in people's lives.
jdk
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
08:09 PM
8
08
09
PM
PST
jdk
It has everything to do with the issue, which is a metaphysical issue.
I am afraid that you are not grasping the problem. Darwinian science claims that evolution is a chance-driven process. TE rejects the design hypothesis and agrees with Darwinian science. Thus, the TE cannot say that evolution simply "seems" like a chance-driven process and continue to cling to the Darwinian model, which says that evolution "is" a chance-driven process.
We, as humans embedded in this world of time and causality, see multitudinous things every day (not just events associated with evolution) as being random, contingent, or a product of chance. However, orthodox Christian theology holds that those things – all things – are manifestations of God’s will (which is a metaphysical proposition.)
No one questions the proposition that sometimes God's designs can appear as chance to us. The point is that Darwinian science, which TEs accept totally, says that evolution is not one of those instances. Since TEs accept Darwinian science totally, they are committed to saying that evolution is chance-driven--not seems chance driven--is chance driven. Yet they also say at other times that it merely seems chance driven. This is a contradiction that you must face. The more important point is that orthodox Christianity also teaches that God's existence is made evidence from his handiwork, which means that the TE argument that biological design is an illusion militates against the same religion they claim to believe in. Each time they accept a Darwinian doctrine, they militate against their own faith claims. Contradictions are everywhere.
So what looks like chance to us is not chance to God. To think otherwise is to think that things happen in the world that are in fact not part of God’s will.
No. Sorry, but that is nonsense. Not all things that are ordained by God appear as chance to us. Some things, maybe, all things, definitely not.
TE’s (I speak only for the point of view I am representing here) are not making any special claims about evolution: they are just stating an orthodox view of how to understand God’s presence in the world.
You appear not to know what it means to be a modern day TE. (In Times past, it referred to those who think that God designed the evolutionary process. These days, it refers to evolutionary creationism or Christian Darwinism, which is the idea that God used unguided, purposeless, Darwinian processes to create biodiversity.) TEs, insofar as they are TEs, accept Darwinian "science." which really isn't science at all. It is an ideology posing as science. In any case, Darwinian science teaches that evolution is unguided and that biological design is an illusion. That position is in direct conflict with Romans 1:20, which I alluded to earlier. God's designs in nature are obvious. So much so, that those who deny it are "without excuse." Read it for yourself. Also, you are evading the main issue. TE style evolution is non Christian. It is the TE claim that a purposeful, mindful God can use a purposeless, mindless evolutionary process to achieve His specific ends. In fact, this proposition is not logically possible. Perhaps an analogy will help: [a] I load the dice such that the number 7 will appear every time. (specified result) I designed the process so that 7 is guaranteed to appear. It is the only possible outcome because I have closed off all others. If I hadn’t closed them off, I couldn’t guarantee the result. (God-Guided evolution) [b] I use fair dice, in which case there are eleven possible outcomes. This is an open ended process that will allow any outcome from 2 to 12, including 7. I cannot guarantee that I will get 7. I may get 7, but it is unlikely. The reason I cannot guarantee that 7 will appear is because the process is opened up so that other numbers can come up as well. (unguided Darwinian Evolution). Notice that the loaded dice and Guided evolution produce a specified outcome and that the fair dice and unguided Darwinian evolution produce an indeterminate outcome. Just as it is impossible for fair dice to guarantee a 7, it is impossible for a random evolutionary process (as posited by the TEs) to guarantee God’s specific intentions. Thus, Darwinian evolution, which will likely not reflect the Creators apriori intent, cannot be reconciled with Christianity, which requires a process that can guarantee the desired outcome.StephenB
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
07:53 PM
7
07
53
PM
PST
When I wrote, "The bigger question: is anything chance to God?", Stephen responded,
Its a wonderful metaphysical question, but it has little to do with the contradictions of Theistic Evolution.
It has everything to do with the issue, which is a metaphysical issue. We, as humans embedded in this world of time and causality, see multitudinous things every day (not just events associated with evolution) as being random, contingent, or a product of chance. However, orthodox Christian theology holds that those things - all things - are manifestations of God's will (which is a metaphysical proposition.) So what looks like chance to us is not chance to God. To think otherwise is to think that things happen in the world that are in fact not part of God's will. More broadly, all histories are full of contingency from our point of view, even though orthodox Christian theology holds that those histories reflect God's plan and purposes. This includes the lives of individuals, the broader histories of a time, and the evolutionary histories described by science. TE's (I speak only for the point of view I am representing here) are not making any special claims about evolution: they are just stating an orthodox view of how to understand God's presence in the world. So the metaphysical question of the nature of chance is absolutely central to the way Christian theology and the theory of evolution can be reconciled.jdk
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
06:48 PM
6
06
48
PM
PST
Mung @24. I cannot make sense of what you are saying. I will leave you to yourself.StephenB
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
05:57 PM
5
05
57
PM
PST
jdk
No Stephen, you are confusing a materialistic metaphysical interpretation of evolution with the theory of evolution itself.
No. I am responding to the arguments as the TEs present them. Please take them up specifically. Do you agree with me that a random evolutionary process cannot produce a specified result?
You are also just responding, I think, to you negative preconceptions about TE’s (which may fit some TE’s) without addressing the theological perspective that I am addressing.
I am pointing out contradictions, which have not been addressed. They are not based on preconceptions. They are based on TE arguments as presented.
A key issue is chance, and you haven’t answered my questions: are the things that look like chance to us (the roll of a dice, a fortunate escape from an accident) actually chance to God, or is that what looks like chance to us is not chance to God.
It is always possible that appearances can be wrong and what appears to us as chance is not chance to God. However, it is not possible that chance-driven evolution and its indeterminate outcomes can be reconciled with God-guided evolution and its specified outcomes. In other words, Theistic Evolution has no rational justification. If you disagree, this would be a good time to make your case.
The bigger question: is anything chance to God?
Its a wonderful metaphysical question, but it has little to do with the contradictions of Theistic Evolution.StephenB
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
05:55 PM
5
05
55
PM
PST
StephenB:
Sanford does not accept Darwin’s general theory of evolution (natural processes created all biodiversity). No YEC does.
All YEC's accept that claim because they deny any alternative. Do you know of any YEC that claims that God is still creating new species?Mung
July 24, 2016
July
07
Jul
24
24
2016
05:50 PM
5
05
50
PM
PST
1 2 3

Leave a Reply