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Why “theistic evolution” should properly be called Christian Darwinism

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Science historian Michael Flannery kindly responded to something I (O’Leary for UD News) had written to a group of friends about theistic evolution (TE): “I prefer to call it ‘Christian Darwinism’ because the element  that is not compatible with design (or Christianity) is the Darwinism.” His view:

Absolutely correct! The problem isn’t necessarily with common descent or evolution per se but with wholly random and chance mechanisms behind them. Darwinists (from Richard Dawkins on one end to Ken Miller on the other) constantly conflate this issue. So TE is really something of a misnomer that winds up working to their benefit.

Yes, the term “theistic evolution” does indeed work to TE’s benefit by blurring out all the meaning from the term “evolution.” God had a hand in it somehow, but what he did is unclear.

Ask and you’d be surprised what you’ll hear: For example, process theologian Karl Giberson helped found BioLogos, along with Francis Collins. Giberson and Collins offer in The Language of Science and Faith, (IVP Books, 2011):

… we hope readers will agree with us that the relevant part of our origins is not the story of how we acquired the specific details of our body plan—ten fingers, two ears, one nose—or how we lack a marsupial pouch to carry our newborns, or why potty-training takes so long. Nothing about these details is critical to what makes us human. Our humanness is embedded more holistically in our less tangible aspects and could certainly be embodied in creatures that looked nothing like us … (Karl W. Giberson and Francis S. Collins, The Language of Science and Faith: Straight Answers to Genuine Questions (InterVarsity Press, 2011), p. 201, p. 204–5.)

Why should they hope that readers will agree with them? Unless we believe in space alien fiction, there is zero current evidence for a proposition that  that the details of the human form are not “the relevant part of our origins.” Maybe they are relevant. And it should hardly be necessary to point out that we are told by a more authoritative source that even the hairs of our heads are numbered.

Then Giberson and Collins resort to an airy ad hominem dismissal of those who prefer the more authoritative source:

Many may find this thought unsettling and strangely at odds with their understanding of creation, which celebrates that God created us “in his image.” We suggest that this is due to the influence that actual artistic images have had on our view of God and ourselves Because God became incarnate in Jesus, who looks like us, we all too quickly slip into the assumption that God also looks like us. (Karl W. Giberson and Francis S. Collins, The Language of Science and Faith: Straight Answers to Genuine Questions (InterVarsity Press, 2011), p. 201, p. 204–5.)

This is disingenuous. The question isn’t whether God looks like us—or for that matter, whether man can even look on God and live*— but whether God intends us to look the way we do, for good reasons.

On a Darwinist reckoning, no. On a Christian reckoning, yes.

Theistic evolution consists first and foremost in evading such direct choices, in order to accommodate Christianity to the fads and fashions of Darwin’s followers. And that is why I call it Christian Darwinism.

* On that subject, from another authoritative source:  “But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

Comments
Hmm your friends here would disagree with that as they cant seem to make any valid points refuting my claims.
What claims? You don't have anything so what is there to refute?Joe
June 4, 2013
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Oh, and like I said producing some amino acids =/= producing a protein. You are intelligent enough to understand this, right? No new life was formed from the Miller-Urey experiment. Ultimately, it proved nothing.Barb
June 4, 2013
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Because, Joe, you are conveniently ignoring the fact that life does not come from inorganic matter. I posted plenty of evidence, including Miller's own words, that show this. The origin of life is still a mystery to scientists, so try not to come in here claiming that you've solved a problem that's vexed intelligent people for well over a century. Oh, and why are you still here? You've claimed that we are unscientific. Go someplace else, then, and stop trolling.Barb
June 4, 2013
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"Fact: It produced a few amino acids from inorganic matter." So let me get this straight, on our first try, we quite easily produced amino acids from inorganic matter? Yup. And further studies have produced even more of the building blocks of matter needed for life, and have shown that amphipathic molecules can form bilayers on their own and even grow and reproduce on their own? Yup, yup. Why are you still talking barb?Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Try again, Joe. You're ignoring evidence. Fact: It produced a few amino acids from inorganic matter. Fact: The experiment was rigged in favor of what Miller wanted it to show, and he admitted as much. Fact: The early atmosphere used in the experiment has been found to be incorrect by many scientists. Producing amino acids =/= producing a single cell. Producing amino acids =/= producing a protein.Barb
June 4, 2013
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Hmm your friends here would disagree with that as they cant seem to make any valid points refuting my claims. If im unintelligent, that makes you guys as smart as a rock.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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That might be the most intelligent thing youve ever said!
That makes one more than you!Joe
June 4, 2013
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Hey joe, remember that time you said "Humans with sickle-cell anemia are still humans." Man that was funny! That might be the most intelligent thing youve ever said!Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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So Barb, lets recap quick: Did Miller-Urey produce amino acids from inorganic matter? Yes it did. Thank you. Have a nice day.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Once again, do you have anything intelligent to say? Ive mentioned signal recognition in ER-localization and glycolysis/gluconeogenesis, only to have them be ignored. You guys simply dont have the knowledge to refute me. Sorry.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Joealtle:
For the last time Barb, Miller-Urey was not trying to recreate abiogenesis, its sole purpose was to attempt to generate organic molecules from inorganic.
And he generated the chemical components of tar. He did not generate anything that, left on its own, could have produced a single cell. His experiment, rigged as it was, did not show that life can come from non-life. It has been explained to you several times that he was trying to test Oparin’s hypothesis of life coming from non-living matter. Why you repeatedly ignore this point is strange, to say the least. franklin:
Of course I read your post. How would I have known that you forgot to mention the other 21 amino acids formed in the experiment if I had not read your post.
I pointed out that the experiment produced 2 simpler amino acids of the 20 required to make proteins (Origins: A Skeptic’s Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth, by Robert Shapiro, 1986, p. 105; Life Itself, by Francis Crick, 1981, p. 77.). That is a long way from creating a protein or even a single cell.
I don’t know. barb, did the education cause the chemical reactions or was it the physical and chemical properties of the experimental constituents that were involved in the reactions which produced the chemical products?
The education allowed the scientists to cause the chemical reactions; remember, Miller rigged the experiment according to his own preferences.Barb
June 4, 2013
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No, the cell is a mess of things all going on at once, because thats exactly how it is.
That's how your ignorance sees it. That doesn't make it so, though.Joe
June 4, 2013
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Funny actually, you quote-mined me. I said "look at glycolysis and gluconeogensis." You conveniently left out the other half of my point and then proceeded to copy/paste some youtube videos on the TCA cycle and ETC. You are a joke.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Ah yes, another boatload of quotes and youtube videos that have little to nothing to do with what I said. When you have some thoughts of your own on the issue, you let me know.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Venter also said that he thinks it was "more like a bush of life." Funny how you left that part out though.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Joealtle the troll repeats the same claim in different words 'their precise function are regulated in a very indirect and inefficient manner.' and suggests,, "Look at glycolysis" ,,to support his claim. Okie Dokie let's look: The 10 Step Glycolysis Pathway In ATP Production: An Overview - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Kn6BVGqKd8 At the 6:00 minute mark of the following video, Chris Ashcraft, PhD – molecular biology, gives us an overview of the Citric Acid Cycle, which is, after the 10 step Glycolysis Pathway, also involved in ATP production: Evolution vs ATP Synthase - Molecular Machine - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4012706 Glycolysis and the Citric Acid Cycle: The Control of Proteins and Pathways - Cornelius Hunter - July 2011 This design (of the Glycolysis and the Citric Acid Cycle) is complex at many levels. At the molecular level, there is the precise control of the protein enzymes. At the pathway level, there is the interaction between the enzymes. And at the cellular level there is interactions between the different pathways. And all of this has nothing in common with evolution’s naïve, religiously-driven, dogma that biology must be one big fluke. As one evolutionist admitted (one of the textbook authors): "We have always underestimated cells. Undoubtedly we still do today. But at least we are no longer as naive as we were when I was a graduate student in the 1960s. Then, most of us viewed cells as containing a giant set of second-order reactions: molecules A and B were thought to diffuse freely, randomly colliding with each other to produce molecule AB—and likewise for the many other molecules that interact with each other inside a cell. This seemed reasonable because, as we had learned from studying physical chemistry, motions at the scale of molecules are incredibly rapid. … But, as it turns out, we can walk and we can talk because the chemistry that makes life possible is much more elaborate and sophisticated than anything we students had ever considered. Proteins make up most of the dry mass of a cell. But instead of a cell dominated by randomly colliding individual protein molecules, we now know that nearly every major process in a cell is carried out by assemblies of 10 or more protein molecules. And, as it carries out its biological functions, each of these protein assemblies interacts with several other large complexes of proteins. Indeed, the entire cell can be viewed as a factory that contains an elaborate network of interlocking assembly lines, each of which is composed of a set of large protein machines. […] Why do we call the large protein assemblies that underlie cell function protein machines? Precisely because, like the machines invented by humans to deal efficiently with the macroscopic world, these protein assemblies contain highly coordinated moving parts. Within each protein assembly, intermolecular collisions are not only restricted to a small set of possibilities, but reaction C depends on reaction B, which in turn depends on reaction A—just as it would in a machine of our common experience. […] We have also come to realize that protein assemblies can be enormously complex. … As the example of the spliceosome should make clear, the cartoons thus far used to depict protein machines vastly underestimate the sophistication of many of these remarkable devices. [Bruce Alberts, “The Cell as a Collection of Protein Machines: Preparing the Next Generation of Molecular Biologists,” Cell 92 (1998): 291-294.] But the dogma remains. Evolutionists insist that evolution must be a fact and they use dozens of religious arguments to make their case. In the next moment they turn around and insist it is all about science. The result is pathetic science, such as the journal paper that tried to explain the citric acid cycle as “evolutionary opportunism.” Religion drives science, and it matters. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2011/07/glycolysis-and-citric-acid-cycle.htmlbornagain77
June 4, 2013
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Thank you udat, that was incredibly intelligent. You and Eric should get together and bond over your perceived intellects.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Thank you Eric. I can distinguish between the two just fine thank you. Do you have anything intelligent to add to the conversation?Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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The cell is not as ordered and seemingly designed as you guys might have us think. In reality its a mess of things going on all at once.
loludat
June 4, 2013
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corrected link “I think the tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren’t really holding up.” - Dr. Craig Venter, American Biologist – quoted from following video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXrYhINutuIbornagain77
June 4, 2013
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So you copy/paste the same exact quote a second time? Great job! Like I already said the first time around, that quote does nothing for your position. That quote is 100% true, what I am saying is that those proteins with their precise function are regulated in a very indirect and inefficient manner. Look at glycolysis and gluconeogenesis; opposing pathways that are constantly functioning. The cell cannot just shut one off, it is constantly fighting itself.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Hmm Joealtle the Darwinian dogmatist repeats his claim (as if repeating his claim will make it true) 'the cell is a mess of things all going on at once' Yet Craig Venter, who decoded the genome, claims,, “All living cells that we know of on this planet are ‘DNA software’-driven biological machines comprised of hundreds of thousands of protein robots, coded for by the DNA, that carry out precise functions,” Joealtle, since I'm going to believe Venter way before I believe anything you, a troll, has to say, perhaps you can write him and tell him to quit saying stuff like that? Or stuff like what he said to Dawkins: "I think the tree of life is an artifact of some early scientific studies that aren't really holding up." - Dr. Craig Venter, American Biologist - quoted from following video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bMQkAqxNeEbornagain77
June 4, 2013
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Joealte @109: Welcome back with your misinformation and absurd comments. We missed you. :) This one has to be right near the top for Absurd Comment of the Week:
No, the cell is a mess of things all going on at once . . .
You are apparently unable to distinguish between (i) high level of activity, and (ii) a mess. Better luck next time.Eric Anderson
June 4, 2013
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No, the cell is a mess of things all going on at once, because thats exactly how it is. You simply dont know what you are talking about, im sorry bud.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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So because Jokealtle is ignorant, the cell is just a mess of things going on all at once. All science so far...Joe
June 4, 2013
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Wow, nice quote-mining job! You get off on copy/pasting, dont you? Nothing you just posted refutes anything I have said. Yes cells are driven by DNA-encoded proteins, yes these proteins carry out precise functions. But what you are missing is the bigger picture; that all of this is going on at once, that the cell doesnt have direct control over anything really and that the cell is a mess of biomolecules that are constantly functioning sometimes even working against each other.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Joealtle the dogmatist claims 'The cell is not as ordered and seemingly designed as you guys might have us think. In reality its a mess of things going on all at once.' Yet, rather than a mess, Craig Venter claims: Venter: Life Is Robotic Software - July 15, 2012 Excerpt: “All living cells that we know of on this planet are ‘DNA software’-driven biological machines comprised of hundreds of thousands of protein robots, coded for by the DNA, that carry out precise functions,” said (Craig) Venter. http://crev.info/2012/07/life-is-robotic-software/ Go figure ! Are you going to clam that Venter does not know what he is talking about?bornagain77
June 4, 2013
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I did not say that random collisions were the only factor. The fact is though, no matter how many times you claim otherwise based on you lacking knowledge of biology, that random collisions and random diffusion gets the large majority of biomolecules where they need to go. Some proteins contain localization signals, for example that direct their movement during transcription, but the signal recognition particle still uses random diffusion and collisions to get to the signal peptide. And then how does the Ribosome/peptide/SRP complex localizie according to the signal sequence? By random diffusion and collisions until the SRP binds the SRP receptor. Like I said, random collisions and diffusion plays a large part in every intracellular cellular function we know of. The cell is not as ordered and seemingly designed as you guys might have us think. In reality its a mess of things going on all at once.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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Joealtle you dogmatically claim, 'For the last time, random collisions is the basis for animal development and much of the inner workings of our cells.' No they are not! As was made abundantly clear to you, 'random', i.e. unintended, collisions are grossly inadequate as an explanation for what happens in the 'miracle' of development. For someone to claim that the millions upon millions of molecules in one fertilized egg can, solely by reference to 'random collisions', find their way to a fully developed 50-100 trillion cell organism is nothing less delusional madness! Stephen Meyer - Functional Proteins And Information For Body Plans - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4050681 Dr. Stephen Meyer comments at the end of the preceding video,,, ‘Now one more problem as far as the generation of information. It turns out that you don’t only need information to build genes and proteins, it turns out to build Body-Plans you need higher levels of information; Higher order assembly instructions. DNA codes for the building of proteins, but proteins must be arranged into distinctive circuitry to form distinctive cell types. Cell types have to be arranged into tissues. Tissues have to be arranged into organs. Organs and tissues must be specifically arranged to generate whole new Body-Plans, distinctive arrangements of those body parts. We now know that DNA alone is not responsible for those higher orders of organization. DNA codes for proteins, but by itself it does not insure that proteins, cell types, tissues, organs, will all be arranged in the body. And what that means is that the Body-Plan morphogenesis, as it is called, depends upon information that is not encoded on DNA. Which means you can mutate DNA indefinitely. 80 million years, 100 million years, til the cows come home. It doesn’t matter, because in the best case you are just going to find a new protein some place out there in that vast combinatorial sequence space. You are not, by mutating DNA alone, going to generate higher order structures that are necessary to building a body plan. So what we can conclude from that is that the neo-Darwinian mechanism is grossly inadequate to explain the origin of information necessary to build new genes and proteins, and it is also grossly inadequate to explain the origination of novel biological form.’ - Stephen Meyer - (excerpt taken from Meyer/Sternberg vs. Shermer/Prothero debate - 2009) How many different cells are there in complex organisms? Excerpt: The nematode worm Caenorhabditis elegans, the cellular ontogeny of which has been precisely mapped, has 1,179 and 1,090 distinct somatic cells (including those that undergo programmed cell death) in the male and female, respectively, each with a defined history and fate. Therefore, if we take the developmental trajectories and cell position into account, C. elegans has 10^3 different cell identities, even if many of these cells are functionally similar. By this reasoning, although the number of different cell types in mammals is often considered to lie in the order of hundreds, it is actually in the order of 10^12 if their positional identity and specific ontogeny are considered. Humans have an estimated 10^14 cells, mostly positioned in precise ways and with precise organization, shape and function, in skeletal architecture, musculature and organ type, many of which (such as the nose) show inherited idiosyncrasies. Even if the actual number of cells with distinct identities is discounted by a factor of 100 (on the basis that 99% of the cells are simply clonal expansions of a particular cell type in a particular location or under particular conditions (for example, fat, muscle or immune cells)), there are still 10^12 positionally different cell types. http://ai.stanford.edu/~serafim/CS374_2006/papers/Mattick_NRG2004.pdf Cell Positioning Uses "Good Design" - March 2, 2013 Excerpt: All in all, we see a complex answer to a simple question: how does a cell know where it is? Here we have seen multiple interacting mechanisms for gathering information from a noisy environment, refining it, and making decisions reliably. This is a form of irreducible complexity -- not so much of physical parts interacting, but strategies interacting, much like a software engineer would use multiple strategies to provide robustness for high-reliability software. Cells are so good at it, they gain "exceedingly reliable" information even from noisy, unreliable inputs.,, "In biology, simple questions rarely have simple answers, and "how do cells know where they are?" is no exception.",,, Lander says nothing about how these sensory strategies might have evolved by a Darwinian process. Indeed, Darwinian theory is essentially useless to the entire discussion.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/03/cell_positionin069471.htmlbornagain77
June 4, 2013
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Wrong again BA. For the last time, random collisions is the basis for animal development and much of the inner workings of our cells. Binding affinities determines how long these collisions last and therefore how long conformation changes last. This is how the majority of our body works.Joealtle
June 4, 2013
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